Is It Me? Carine Van Hee on Toxic Relationships, Gaslighting & Healing After Abuse

“Is it me?” can sound like healthy self-reflection, but in a toxic relationship it can become the trap that keeps you questioning yourself for years.

In this episode, Julie Fairhurst sits down with Carine Van Hee, a visual artist living in Norway, survivor of domestic abuse, and author of Is It Me? The Hidden System Behind Toxic Relationships, to put clear language around the confusing reality of emotional abuse, manipulation, coercive control, and gaslighting.

Carine shares how the death of her mother exposed a painful family truth and pushed her to research the repeatable patterns behind toxic relationships. Together, we talk about why emotional abuse can be so hard to recognize when it is mostly invisible: the early love bombing that feels like a soulmate connection, the gradual isolation, the blame shifting, the walking on eggshells, and the slow erosion of confidence that happens one small moment at a time.

We also explore healing after abuse. Carine explains why leaving is only the first step, how it can take time to “detox” from the abuser’s voice, and what helped her rebuild self-trust through therapy, meditation, movement, and nervous system support.

This conversation goes beyond romantic relationships, because toxic patterns can also show up in families, friendships, workplaces, and communities. When we learn the pattern, we are better able to protect ourselves and support the people we love.

If this episode gives you words for something you could not explain, please share it with someone who may need it, subscribe for more conversations like this, and leave a review so more women can find the support and language they deserve.

Find out more about Carine, her mission, and her book here:

https://www.carinevanhee.com/

If this conversation stirred something in you… good. That’s where change begins.

Make sure you’re subscribed, share this with someone who needs it, and if you’re ready to tell your story, step into your voice, or build a life that actually feels like yours… You’re in the right place.

I’m Julie Fairhurst, and this is where stories turn into power.

Go to my website if you would like to be a guest on the Women Like Me Stories & Business in the toolbar click Let's Podcast

Julie's Website

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Women Like Me Stories and Business. I'm your host, Julie Fairhurst, and I have a very interesting lady today. She's written a written a book, and I I just love the title. So let me tell you a little bit about her. Today I'm joined by Karen Van E. Now, he, she's an artist, a speaker, a survivor of domestic abuse, and the author of, Is it me? I love that. Is it me? The hidden system behind toxic relationships. Karen lives in Norway, and her work is rooted in helping people feel less lonely by speaking honestly about the hidden system behind toxic relationships. Her journey has included multiple career pivots, two marriages and divorces, and finally at 50, stepping fully into what she believes her soul's calling as a full-time artist. So today we're going to talk about talk about toxic relationships, identity, shame, healing, art, rebuilding after abuse, and the powerful moment when a woman realizes it was not me. Oh, Karen, I love that title. I love it. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And Julia, I love your show because what I feel is that you like hold space for the stories you want to tell. And it's important that we can share and that somebody sees us and listens to us and we can inspire others or be inspired. So it's thank you for the show. I applaud you.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Well, let's start by you telling us a little bit about who you are and the work that you're doing today.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Okay, so my name is Karen. I lived in Belgium for a very long, very long time. I moved to Norway with my family. I'm a visual artist, and the easiest way to say what I'm doing today is like I always

Norway Distance And Honest Art

SPEAKER_01 2:00

say I make people feel less alone by talking about the hidden system behind toxic relationships. And I do that through art, art installations, speaking about it and my book since published in 2025.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah. Ah. Well, how does living in Norway influence your art and your healing and the way you see life? Or does it? Oof. That's a wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

This is a wonderful question. It does because the distance when you when you move away from your country, it's the first time that we move as a as a family. So when you move from uh one country to another, you get some distance between what you have experienced in the past and how you have to integrate into a new kind of you have to get to know people, you have to get the the to know the language. Norwegian is not an easy language to learn, but it makes it given me the perhaps the space to acknowledge things, to digest things, to make room for new emotions, new insights, and especially I have a I had a pivotal moment in 2023 when I lost my mom. She was only nearly 92 years old. And when I discovered theirs that she had been in a toxic relationship for over 65 years, and

Mother’s Hidden Relationship Revealed

SPEAKER_01 3:20

I didn't know that. So coming back after the after she had passed away and going through the motions, I discovered that perhaps I should dive deep into the situation because I had so many whys. But I also had left a relationship like two decades ago that left me with a lot of whys. So I just went for researching on what is toxicity, what is unhealthy relationship, what is narcissistic traits, what does that mean? And then I discovered that it like click, everything clicked into one moment that oh it there's a pattern. And but because of the fact that I moved from one country to the other, one there were no links anymore with my with my um, there was no influence from my family or my friends because you're on your own here, you're as a family here, and you get some the the room to actually digest everything and take some time with yourself. It's like almost meditating on what has happened to you. So moving has yeah, it had a huge influence on myself. And I started to in when you talk about the art, I always had expressed myself with very I'm a joyful person. My essence is joy, I'm very positive, I have a lot of energy, and my art is always has always been very expressive with bold colors and no dark colors at all, because I didn't want to connect with the dark sides of myself, and the distance and being alone here in Norway has moved that for me, so it transformed my art into showing up in a more honest way.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah, I love that. You said that you that, you know, after your, and I'm sorry about your mom, but after your mom passed away, you realized that she had been in this toxic relationship for such a long time. And so you decided that you were gonna dig in and find out, you know, just research and discover like what is really going on. And as you were talking, I thought to myself, you know, that's such a good thing to do because, for example, emotional abuse. No, sometimes we don't even know we're being emotionally abused. And what is that? And it's so easy for the for the abuser to place that back on the person that's being abused, the victim. And so I I love that you were, you know, that you dove in and you actually started to research that so that you could understand fully what exactly that was going on.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yeah, it's good that you highlight that because it was like a stacking. I I remember when I left the previous relationship, like I'm with my new partner, like almost 19 years together, balance, harmony, cool. We're cool. Touch woods, yes, I'm so happy. But I left my former relationship like two decades ago, and the only thing I could remember is that I felt it felt confusing. That was a confusing relationship, and it's because I didn't have the words to explain what happened to me. I didn't have a manual, I had no role model, so I didn't know that I was in a toxic relationship. That I didn't describe that as a toxic relationship,

Why Emotional Abuse Stays Invisible

SPEAKER_01 6:30

it was domestic abuse. 95% was emotional abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, the whole thing, and 5% was physical, and still I didn't call it abuse. It's only when my mom died that I and when I started diving into all the the thing, what what is a toxic relationship or what is happening here, and why do I have all these whys? And and I could feel it stacking. And when I discovered the pattern behind toxic relationship and the manipulation, emotional abuse, I discovered that I had been in abuse as well. So it's it's invisible. We don't know. I didn't know, and I think I'm a smart person, but I just didn't know. And I went to study again when I was 45 years old. I studied family science, where you get psychology and all the stuff. Three years in high school, and still I had so many whys that were not answered because it's it's just invisible. We don't talk about it. Yeah, we talk about physical abuse because it's visible, but about the invisible stuff, it's really difficult to get the grip on it, yeah, and to understand. And that's why I decided. I mean, if I'm I was burned with wives for such a long time, and it took me and I wasn't there for my mom, I didn't see it. There was no physical abuse, it was emotional, it was financial, it was hidden. Now that I know the system and I look upon her relationship, I can I see the pattern, but I didn't see it when she was alive, and she slowly retreated from life, she just disconnected. Wow, and my father said it was dementia, it was not that was a big lie. So these all things happened, yeah, behind the scenes, it was awful, and I felt like she couldn't, I haven't supported her. It hurts me. I haven't supported on the therapy. I didn't support her, I wasn't there for her because I didn't know the system, I didn't know about the different components about so I couldn't support her. So when I understood that I can't do anything, I can't be of meaning to my mom anymore, but I can stand up and talk about it. Yes, and I hope I can be of meaning for the next generation or anybody who's listening.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Well, that's that's that's all that we can do because so often we don't see, we don't understand, we don't see things around us when it's happening, and you were in it. So how do you how are you going to if you're living in it, you're living through it, and you can't you can't name it or or understand it, how could you possibly know or understand what's happening with her? It's a generational thing that happens to us.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

And I didn't know it. It it was because it her passing away, she it was like she gave me a gift. Yeah, Karen. Something perhaps you can investigate and you can do something with it. And to and I've it took me a long time to find my wife, really long time. I'm 62, and I always thought I need to find my wire. I I had this drive and this passion to find my wire, and I couldn't find it. And it's only when my mom passed away that I discovered, okay, now I understand. But it comes with the fear, but it's not because we feel the fear that we shouldn't do it. I could feel the fear of I have to stand up and talk about it, and and perhaps people will judge me or whatever. So I could feel the fear when I I thought now I have to stand up and talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah, but you're doing it anyway, and that's the important thing. And uh yeah, fear of judgment, especially for women, is just so so tough. Yeah. Well, let's talk about is it me? Because I love that title, I really do. So, what inspired that title?

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Because I

The Damage Of “Is It Me?”

SPEAKER_01 10:35

when I started to when I understood the system, before I understood the system, I always thought it was me. I thought it was me. Is it me? That am I too emotional, I'm I'm too too much, I'm I'm too feminine, not feminine enough. Is it me? I felt like it was my fault. And that's the feeling that they give, the abusers give you, that it's your fault, that the relationship went wrong, that they started to abuse you, that they that they they exploded. It was it's your fault. So I thought it was me, and that's why it's I thought it's a good title. And it's not you. I just want to talk. I just want to talk to your audience, it's not you, yeah. And you're not the only one. If you look at the statistics, it's crazy. Yeah, yeah. We're just not alone, and yes, you can heal, you can heal.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yes, yeah. Well, what does that question do to people over time? Is it me? You know, we're asking ourselves, like, well, is it me? And what am I doing wrong? How can I do things right? What do you think happens to a woman? I'm gonna talk women here, but what happens to a woman over time when that is when that question is just rolling through your mind?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah, it takes away your self-confidence, it takes away it just takes away your identity, I think. To me, when I left that relationship, I was just a nobody. I just couldn't, I didn't know who I was anymore. Because of the questions, because of the rumination, because of repeating the same situations or conversations in my head over and over again, trying to understand what happened. What did I say wrong? Is it me? Did I do something wrong? And it makes you doubt yourself until you don't know who you are anymore, and it goes like it's step by step by step. It's not it's the confusing thing is that toxic people are not toxic all the time. Sometimes they're it feels like they love you, like they care for you, like they support you. I say it feels like, because it's not, but it feels like it, so you have hope again. And we we're most of us are positive. We want to make it work, we want to make it that we have a nice relationship together, and and I felt shame. I I have chosen, I had chosen that gentleman, and now he turns it sometimes. It felt like he disliked me or he hated me. How is that possible? So and then you start to think it's you because of course, yeah. So it's it takes it's a stacking of little things over time that makes that real very confusing uh experience.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Well, can you tell us what you mean when you talk about the hidden system behind toxic relationships? What is that?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

It's it's a layered system, it's complex, and it consists of different components.

The Pattern Behind Toxic Relationships

SPEAKER_01 13:34

And I have been talking to many survivors and victims of abuse because of the book and because of the fact that I started talking. And what I hear is I hear different stories. Everybody has a different story, they met their partner in a different way on a different, but this the system they use is the same, so it starts the same. It starts with love being love bobbing. We all know we see that on Instagram and on Facebook. The the little presence, the positive feedback, the remarks, the the the feeling cared and loved. It's like I found my soulmate, and then it gradually starts with isolation, and then as you continue, it starts with gaslighting, with victim, victim blame, this shift blame. So this but it's like all different components they use on you, yeah, and it it all follows the same pattern, and perhaps the components will not be in the same order, but it will be it will consist out of the same components. So once you know or know about the system, you will be able to recognize it, and once you recognize it, you can make a different decision. I didn't know about that system at all. I've heard some things you hear it on like gaslighting, I didn't know what that was. And I think we could go through the whole system, but it I think it would take us a long time. But what I would say is when just to be of use, is that when you're confused, when you ruminate a lot about your relationship, when you are tired tired, when you walk on eggshells all the time, when you when you when you it feels like they're hijacking your mind, you're in your head all the time, that's where they want you to be, they want you to disconnect from your intuition because your intuition will say, This is wrong. Yes, yeah, this doesn't feel good. Yeah, why does he criticize me? Why does he roll his eyes? Why does he you will feel it? But they make that the you stay in your head and you ruminate all the time. That's a sign. So go and educate yourself.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah, get help. What yes, yes. So what clicked for you when when when did you wake up?

SPEAKER_01 15:45

After the passing of my mom. The passing of your mom. So I have been in so two decades ago, I have been in a toxic relationship that uh I've been in for four years and a half, and when I left, I knew there was something wrong, but I I just I

Detoxing After You Leave

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I was tired. I had a little son of 10 months old when I left. So I was so tired. I had to take care of my son. I just I was it was survival, and I didn't understand what I had been through. So, but I had all these whys coming up, and I was ruminating afterwards. I was still ruminating because they're in your head. You leave you left, but it's still in your head, so you have to make sure that you detox.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

But detox, that's a great way to put it. That's an excellent way to put it.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

You have to detox because they're still there. I remember, I remember I I had left already six months, and my son went, it was the his his dad's time, so he went to see his dad over the weekend, and I went into a little shop to buy a new vase because I had bought flowers for my house. And I stood in front of the vases, a pink one and a blue one, and I couldn't choose. And I heard his voice. You don't know how to choose, you never know how to choose. And I could uh and I just ran out of the shop because they're there. You really have to detox.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

And if you don't, you could end up back in that same pattern again.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, and it when I left that relationship, I could feel after like two years, I started talking to people again, and I could feel that I was still attracted to people that were not healthy. That's when I decided to go into therapy. So I've been into therapy a long time. I I decided not to start any relationships anymore. I've been a mom on my own for seven years. Yes, seven years because I just didn't dare. Yeah. I I thought I have to I have to make sure that I detox first and I heal first before I get to know somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Yeah. Well, how why do you think it's hard to explain a toxic relationship to someone who's never been in one?

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Ooh, I think it's really hard to understand. And that's something we talk about amongst survivors a lot. It only takes one word to understand that somebody else has been a survivor too. We immediately understand each other because we know what we're talking about. Did he do this? Yes, he did. He did. Okay, so, and then the whole components come up and you go, like, okay, there's the system. We know. We know what gaslighting is, we know what it is when somebody takes away your confidence, we know what it is to start doubting yourself because they will just switch your words and they will just switch the whole uh story. That you just so it's it's so confusing. We know how that feels. So that's why I always talk about how it feels because perhaps something is easier to understand when I talk about feelings, how it feels to be in such a relationship, than if I talk about components, perhaps that doesn't ring a bell. Yeah, and it's it's very difficult, it's invisible. I remember when I left all my friends, most of my friends just looked away. They all believed the story of the of the abuser, they didn't believe me. And it's because they they play with the stories, they they tell lies without problems. So they come up with stories why you leave and and people believe them. And you're just you're just tired, you don't know anymore who you are, and when you talk about it, you're just it doesn't make sense. Yeah. And they're just they're just full of confidence. They come with a story which is really clear and concise, and and everybody believes them. So it's really hard to get the grip on what the invisible system is, actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

You know, I as you were talking, I I thought about a girlfriend of mine who she's she's moved to a different area, and she she retired, she was a school bus driver for many, many years, and she's retired from that, but she wanted to do something. So she moved to a very rural area and she went to the

Toxicity At Work And Beyond

SPEAKER_00 20:00

little community store, and she thought, oh, this will be fun a couple of days a week. And so she she did that for about four or five months, and then realized that the shop owner was toxic, and she was in a toxic relationship, not a love relationship, the husband, but with this. And so she left and she wrote in one of my books about this relationship. And I thought, so it's not just intimate partners, it can be it can be friends, children, your employer. So we really need to, as as humans, as women, we really need to understand what toxicity is.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Oh, yes. And it I still find it very difficult to be very concise and very clear about what it is because I I need to take it when I talk about it. I have about an hour that I talk about how it starts, how it continues, how I got out, how I healed, because then you get like slices of the the whole system behind it. But I think it's good what you bring up to build on what you you said is I've been in a toxic relationship at work as well, and it's really confusing. I thought I was being bullied, but I've but I now I now know the system. Go like, oh boah, she first has it was a she. She love bombed me. She gave me a little presence, went to the movies together, we went for a drink together. It was lovely, we were really good friends, and then she started isolating me on the job, and I didn't see it. And then she started talking behind my back about me. I didn't hear it. So it took me a long time. I left the job after one year and a half of bullying. So it's not only in romance, yeah, it's a toxic system that is being used by many people. And I listened just recently to what's he called again? He's called Arthur Brooks, he's called the uh happiness professor. He gives lectures in Harvard and he says that like about seven percent of people are toxic. That's a lot. That's one in 14. So if you're in a in on a in a birthday party with 20 people, somebody's there which is toxic. You have to be you have to know about it. And these are the friends that become friends too quickly. These are the lovers that become a lover too quickly. They go really fast. They move really fast.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

And so what do you think? I mean, not that we want to focus on the on the toxic person, but I'm just curious with your research, what have you found about the like why are people so toxic in this society? Like why? What is going on?

SPEAKER_01 22:48

I think that's a really great question, but I think I have to be honest, I'm I'm not an expert, I'm not a therapist. I don't I I've read a rat about narcissistic people, narcissistic trait, and the whole stuff, but it's really complex. And I think it's beyond my my capacity to talk about that. Yeah, and I really what I would really want to do is I want to draw our attention on the survivor and the victim because what happens now is people don't see the system and they don't support the victim. They don't, yeah, they look away, so they don't support the survivor. And it's not only family and friends, but it's also experts. You have therapists who don't know about toxic relationship, who have never been in it and do not recognize it, who think it's a conflict. No, no, no, it's not a conflict, it's abuse. So, so and I really want to keep the focus on on that side of the story, and it's because I'm not, I don't think I have Karen.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

I appreciate you saying that because yeah, we want to try to help people and we want to make sure that we're that we're where our knowledge base is. So I appreciate that for sure. So, how does someone's confidence, identity, or sense of reality begin to shift? How do they start to, you know, how do you how do you how did people like did you realize you were start to realize you were in a toxic relationship? Or was it you never did?

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Only no, no, it took me two decades, two decades to understand I was in a toxic relationship. Wow, it it felt confusing, it felt complex, there was abuse, and I didn't see it as abuse. I had all these excuses, it's generational, it must uh it uh the stress at work, he has a bad day, troubles within the family, all kinds of things to excuse the bad behavior. Yeah, it's still bad behavior, yes, and and when I started talking, which is it's not funny, but it's it's the truth. When I started talking in public about it, I still said I'm a survivor of emotional abuse. No, I'm a survivor of abuse, and it's because the word abuse is like so uh huge and yeah, difficult and feels like hard and and and yeah, but it's abuse. Yeah, even if it's only emo even if it's all only emotional, being talked down, being criticized, being uh attacked, being uh yeah, you feel the contempt. Yeah, that is just I mean, it just uh it devaluates you, it it it I mean it takes away your value, it takes away your capacity to like enjoy life.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Well, and to be the best person you can be, because you're just being pushed down and pushed down.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yes, and it's it's it goes, it's so little, it's it's subtle, it's a subtle stacking every day. It's like receiving a teaspoon of poison every day. By the time that you recognize that you're poisoned, you don't have the strength anymore to leave. Wow, yeah, that's a great idea. That's how it feels. That's how it feels. Oh, and you know, oh I have another analogy because you say analogy. I know when you when I when I got to know this human being, which was lovely and wonderful, and we had so much in common, I was so happy. It was our first meeting was eclectic, I was like energized fully, and was like, Oh, I can't nearly I can't believe that this is happening to me. That's a red flag already. But what's happening is when you when you see a toxic person, it's like an iceberg, you only see the tip, and you never know when it's gonna flip. Because then you will see the real person without the mask, and they only show themselves in the house and not outside of the house. And to me, I didn't know that until after having left the relationship that they don't show up in the same way outside of the house as they dare to show themselves in the house. I thought they were the same everywhere because that's how we show up. Yes, but they play a different game.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah. Well, what would you say to someone who feels alone and believes that what's happening is their fault?

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Ooh, first of all, it's not you. It's it's not you. You're probably a very healthy, healthy person in an unhealthy relationship. But in order to recognize that you're in an unhealthy

What To Do If Unsure

SPEAKER_01 27:20

relationship, you need to recognize the hidden systems, so the components of that so I would say if you feel confused and you think it's you, try to educate yourself on what a toxic or an unhealthy relationship is, or what an a healthy relationship is. Because if you're in a healthy relationship, people build each other up. How can I support you that so that you can do the things that are important to you? And how can you support me so I can do the important things that are the things that are important or uplift me or energize me? In a toxic relationship, it's one has all the power, the other one has no power. Right. It's it's different. That's abuse. They're gonna can you show up the way you can you show up the way you are, or do you have to tone down or hide some of your personality or hide some of your characters or hide some of your the things that you're great in because they cannot live with that side of you? Can you can you talk about everything in your relationship or do they lash out at you when you talk about certain stuff? So the moment you start doubting, educate yourself, go out there, talk to a therapist. And I'm I know that in many countries we have a toll-free number where you can talk for free, check. Perhaps one check will save you 20 years because 20 is the average time that people stay in a toxic relationship. That's a lot. 20 is the average, yes. Holy cow! Wow, yes. Well, if you my mom, 65 plus years, yes, it's uh yes. I was four years and a half, yeah, but my mom was 65, so I it's in between. I I come across many women that wait until the children are grown up before they leave. 20 years, 25 years, 30 years of marriage. It's not a good idea to stay for the kids.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

No, it's well, and and because what's that teaching your children as well? They're living in because they're living in that, they see it every day, they're living in it. It's not necessarily helping anybody.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

No, and it has a huge stall on your body, your nervous system is on alert all the time. Yes, it takes a long time to heal. I'm still healing, I'm still becoming, I'm yeah, so I'm not there yet, but I it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

So, what does recovery look like when you're doing well, but still discovering new ways to care for yourself? So, how does that look for for people coming out of those toxic relationships?

SPEAKER_01 30:03

It's a long way. I think to me, what helped me the most was therapy. I'm so

Healing Tools For Recovery

SPEAKER_01 30:10

grateful that I had the therapist who could support me, who could you feel listened and supported, and nobody says you're crazy. They say you're a healthy person, but that was a unhealthy situation. Let's look at the situation, where does it come from? Where where are the triggers? But then there's a lot of work still to be done because I was still living in my head. So I started I started meditating because I wanted to clear my head, I wanted to be sure that I was talking to myself, not to talking to somebody else in my head. So meditation has helped me, but also your body needs to relax, yeah. And that that's for me, that was a hard thing. So I started to move, so exercise, yoga. I do cold water plunging here in in Norway because I feel how yes, because I feel how how how it helps me to be in the now, yes, still after two decades, yeah, to be in the now and and not start going back. What helped me is the moment I understood that it's a system, I could feel like the shame go away. Yeah, because I got okay, it's not me. Wow, it's a system, and now I can explain, I can I have language for it, I can become a role model for others. And what it gave me is it gave me I could breathe again, and it gave me back freedom, a sense of freedom. Yeah, and that's something I want to give to everybody who has been in a in a toxic that you can read again, you go like, okay, it's not me, but I I can explain because some of my family members have read the book, some of my friends have read the book who looked away in the past and said, I'm so sorry, I didn't see it. And it's so good to hear that that people acknowledge the fact that you have been on your own, yeah, alone in a situation which was yeah, you should not be on your own, you should be supported. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Well, let me ask you when you were writing the book, what was the hardest part of putting your story and insights into words? What was the most difficult thing?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Oh, that's a very good question. I have

Turning Pain Into A Guide

SPEAKER_01 32:30

I don't want to, I didn't want to have a I didn't want to talk about my life. I didn't want to have it uh like ought to be a how do you say that in English?

SPEAKER_00 32:39

A biography, yeah. Biography.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yeah, yeah. I wanted to be of meaning. I wanted to have I wanted this book to be a guide to to people. If I if I'm doubting, perhaps you should read the guide because then you can see how the system works. And I so I explain in the storytelling telling each time it's how did we meet, and what are the first things that I saw there? So, what we know about people that are toxic is they're spotting all the time for people who are vulnerable. Perhaps you had just moved to a different country, perhaps you have just quit your job, perhaps you just lost somebody there, and you're in a bit of a shaky situation. They're spotting for people like that. I just came out of a divorce for two years before, so I was still shaky when I met that gentleman. Yeah, so and that's what they do. So if you know that, and if you know, so that I talk about the story, and then I give some a theoretical frame theory of what does that actually mean? So gaslighting with the story, and then what is gaslighting actually, so that people get and the story and the theory behind it. So I talk only 10% of my whole story is in the book because I want it to be concise, clear, and that people can read through. And what I hear back from readers is that it's clear, it's concise, they can't put it back, they can't put it down because it's like really it's fast, it's a fast moving pace and it's interesting, and that's what I wanted. I want everybody. My son is dyslexic, and he read the book. He said it was easy to read and it goes fast, it's in a fast-moving pace, so it's really interesting. Yes, yeah, that's what I wanted.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Well, how did you feel when you published the book? Because you now were that's the thing. Like it's one thing to, you know, but when you put it in a book and you publish that book, how you know, how was that for you to be

Sharing Publicly Without Shame

SPEAKER_00 34:30

publicly seen as a survivor?

SPEAKER_01 34:33

That's a very good question. Yeah, you know that because you you talk to all these women who have yes. So that's a good question. I I remember that I I took my phone to talk about that in public. I'm gonna put my book is published today, it's gonna be out tomorrow, and I'm so fearful, I'm so in doubt because I I can feel it, it just triggers my whole body. Oh because I could feel like oh my god, they're gonna know. And it's only I only talk about 10%. Yeah, but I I I wanted to choose these pivotal moments that people could actually understand what was happening. I didn't want to just go on and on about what happened, but I wanted to give these pivotal moments, the golden nuggets of the things that I discovered and the healing that came afterwards. And but I could feel like I was so triggered and I was so much in fear. I didn't sleep that night. Oh, wow, wow. But well, I have to say, yeah, what what when when it came out, like when I talked for the very first time on stage, we had 200 people that were present. Wow, yes, and what I've what I discovered there is that I wasn't judged. People came up to me and said, I'm so happy you stand up as a survivor because nobody talks about the emotional abuse, the invisible things that's happening. Uh, I had so many people coming up to me telling their story for the very first time to a stranger. So I think when you stand up for your cause, then you should not doubt about the fact that you're being judged, you should look for all the people that you give reason to stand up and rise as well, because you're not standing up alone. There's a whole bunch of people that standing together with you, you rise together, yeah. And that's that's that sense of belonging that you have at your show as well. Yes, you rise together, you don't do it alone, and it's a marvelous feeling. So when you feel the shame, you could just go, you leave the shame there, and you just look for being of meaning, and it just changes everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Well, Karen, I could go on and on and just keep talking with you. It's just you are you're you're you're a you explain things so well and and it's easy to understand. So I can see how your son said, oh, this book is like easy to understand, and you know, you rip through it. So I'm I'm interested in reading the book myself. I think that and I think everybody should read it because you know, that's the thing. Like we've all run into people. We've all run into people, and sometimes we all think, oh, it's just you know, intimate relationships, but it's not. It's shop owners, it's friends, it's kids, it's you know, parents. It's all it happens in different places. So it's important, and and not only for yourself, but I would read it so that you could recognize it in the people that it's happening that it's happening to the people that you love.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, oh can I can I build on that? Yes, you of course you can, yes. Oh, I think it's so important what you say there, because if you know about how it evolves, how it starts, how it evolves, how how what are the triggers, what are the red flags, what are the components of that, the patterns behind it, then you can be of meaning to as a friend, as

How To Spot And Support

SPEAKER_01 38:00

a family member, as a colleague. Because now you have this charismatic, inspiring human being that says that the other one is to blame and we believe him or her. Yes. But if you can listen to the to both parties, you will see the pattern playing out. Because the the victim is the one who's confused, who's tired, who doesn't know anymore, who doesn't can't cannot explain what happened, who doesn't have language. So you will understand that you can be of meaning, you can see the victim, you can see the survivor, and that's so important. So important, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yeah, well, that is a beautiful thing to leave on. So I want everyone to know that we're gonna have a link to Karen's book so you can find her, you can purchase a book. I would encourage you to read it. It doesn't sound like a super heavy read, it sounds very educational. So I would definitely do that so that you not only can help yourself, but you can help those around you as well. Karen, thank you so much for being here. I have, I've really, really, I've learned, learned some stuff. I love doing this. I just learned from everybody and and and uh and I and uh you know and I've learned from you as well. And and I greatly appreciate you coming on the show and helping helping others in the world. So thank you so much for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Thank you for having me. Thank you for being such a warm and great host. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Okay, everybody. Well, that's it for this episode of Women Like Me Stories and Business. And please be sure to tune in next time. Take care, everybody. Bye bye.