Child Loss and Work with Shelly Kolwinska, Margaret Roses’ Mom

 In this episode you’ll hear Shelly Kolwinska share her profound journey of grief following the stillbirth of her daughter, Margaret Rose. In our conversation we discuss the importance of community support for grieving parents and the unique services offered by The Child Loss Foundation. Shelly's personal story intertwines with her professional mission as Director of Child Loss@Work to help others navigate their grief, emphasizing the need for understanding and compassion in the workplace for those who have experienced child loss. Threaded throughout our conversation you’ll hear Shelly talk about GOD’s faithfulness and goodness along her grief journey and the passion He’s given her to help other grieving families. Navigating grief in the workplace is most often very difficult and lonely. You don’t want to miss this episode!

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Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00.108)
Well, hello and welcome to another episode. Thank you for joining us today. I'll be talking with Shelly Kowinska, who is currently the program director for Hope Works Here, which is an employer sponsored benefit for bereaved parents and a service of Faith's Lodge, a nature-based retreat center located in Northwest Wisconsin. Shelly will be sharing her story of loss following the death of her daughter, Margaret Rose, to stillbirth.

I believe you'll be encouraged as we talk both about her grief journey and the road back to God restoring meaning and purpose in her work with this organization that offers so many incredible resources to grieving families. And now here's my conversation with Shelley. Well, Shelley, welcome to our podcast. It is so good to have you with us today.

Well, I'm so excited to be here, Greg. Thank you so much.

Absolutely. Shelley, why don't you take a couple of minutes like most of my guests do and just share with our listeners a little bit about yourself, anything you'd like to share about your family. I know you have a couple of children and just tell us what your role is in your current position with, I think it's you're under the umbrella of Faith's Lodge, but I believe that you actually head up the HopeWorks here.

I guess that's sort of a division of face lodge. Yeah. Okay. Perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:31.822)
So, yeah, I would love to share a little bit about that. So my name is Shelly. I live in Minnesota, in the north area of the country. And so we get all sorts of seasons here and it's a beautiful day outside today. My husband's a Christian music teacher at a Christian school here. He teaches band, choir, and handbells, fifth grade through 12th grade. So he gets to start them and go all the way through with them. And that's always an exciting adventure for him.

I'll bet.

He gets to hear the beauty of what fifth grade band starts, you know, sounds like at the beginning and then realize where they can go at the end. He's blessed to have two of our children in his bands today. My oldest is in ninth grade. He plays saxophone and piano. And my second child is a daughter and she's in seventh grade and plays the French horn. And then we have a second grader who is currently studying piano and is excited about anything music. So.

Wow, music is a big part of your family.

and we have to be a nose and all sorts of instruments and there's not usually a lot of quiet in our house at it

Speaker 1 (02:41.006)
I can't imagine there would be with all of those instruments.

So it's a good problem to have and we have to remember that sometimes when our brains are about to explode from all the chaos. So I currently am a program administrator under Faith's Lodge. Faith's Lodge is a retreat center in Danbury, Wisconsin, and it was created out of the need for connection of grieving parents. The story is of Faith's parents, passed away, stillborn.

I'll bet.

Speaker 2 (03:11.724)
The parents, Mark and Susan wanted to find connection after their loss and they couldn't find any place that they could just go and be and be heard. And so the amazing thing is that they saw the need and they built what they needed. They had some property in Northern Wisconsin that they had used for hunting land. They pulled all their friends and family and raised money and a lot of money to

do this adventure and it opened in 2007. And it has eight rooms. They're all private rooms with their own private bathrooms. And the weekend retreats go from Thursday to Sunday and they are meant to connect families of loss. And so the weekends are actually designed to connect families in stillbirth or suicide or medically complex infant toddler loss, their bereaved mothers, their family.

retreats and so it's really when you can be together with others that can understand the story and your journey. There's counseling available, one-on-one counseling, massage, yoga, nature. There's memorial opportunities so they're allowed to. We do bird houses every weekend. We have a wood shop in the city there that donates the bird houses and every weekend every family does two to

two different birdhouses. One is for their own selves to take home with them, paint and decorate it in honor of their child. And then the group that's there actually works at a birdhouse together and each family kind of takes a side with their child in mind and then those birdhouses stay on the property. So as you walk the grounds of Faith's Lodge, you'll pass hundreds of birdhouses and you'll see names surrounding the sides of the birdhouses and you'll remember those children that have been there.

Wow, what an amazing ministry. And I want to circle back to that after we talk about some of your story. I also want you to talk a little bit about what your specific role is, because I love what you guys are doing with HopeWorks here. And a lot of this is going to change in about a week, because you guys are doing some merging, and you're changing the name of a couple of things.

Speaker 1 (05:33.75)
I want us to come back to that. don't want it to just be a brush over because I think what you're doing is really important work. But I would also like for us to talk about your story because a few years ago, you guys experienced loss through miscarriage of your sweet daughter, Margaret Rose, and you were at 37 weeks, right?

Yeah, so it will be 10 years coming up in October and we had actually the pregnancy before we lost Margaret. We had a miscarriage at 12 weeks. when we and kind of unexplained no situation that could be medically understood at that time. So with Margaret, we actually were a little bit on the higher risk. was over 35, which they call a geriatric

pregnancy, which we all hate that term, but that's what they label it. So I actually was with high risk doctors and I did non-stress tests and extra ultrasounds. I was obviously a little nervous kind of hitting every of those milestones. You hit 12 weeks and you're like, okay. And then you hit 20 weeks and everybody kind of gives you the, know, yep, everything's good. Now from now on smooth sailing. I started doing weekly.

stress tests around, I don't know, 33 weeks or so. At every appointment, everything was perfect. And you kind of let your guard down because the doctors keep saying everything is perfect. And obviously I was a mom of two other children at the time. I had a five-year-old and a three-year-old, so very busy stage of life and lots of things going on. So when you're pregnant in that situation, you're just not constantly thinking of being pregnant. You're just constantly trying to just be a parent.

Yeah, sounds like you probably had lots of fires to put out. A fire, a five-year-old and a two-year-old. I don't think you sat around very much. Not a of to think about it.

Speaker 2 (07:25.24)
Two things going on in our

Speaker 2 (07:33.518)
So one Saturday night, my husband and I went to actually a music concert at our church. I had to help with feeding some of the youth department. I was helping with the dinner and then we sat down to listen to the concert and it's actually on the story of Abraham. Yeah. So during the concert, Margaret was bouncing around in my belly and I remember even joking, she must really love this music. It's just being very active, never.

crossed my mind of anything else other than it had been a busy day and now I'm sitting finally and she's enjoying the music. That night we went to bed exhausted. Next day, Sunday morning, went to church and part way through church I realized I hadn't felt her in a while and I thought, hmm, I think she got tuckered out last night from all the excitement. Got home from church.

Sure.

and then started getting a little worried and laid on the couch, drank some orange juice or some kind of juice. don't remember. I don't like orange juice, but it was some kind of juice. You know, just not even wanting to welcome the thought, but starting to get nervous. And I hadn't even told my husband at this point that I was even worried. know, church is a busy morning dealing with lunch and kids and naps. Finally, I just said, we need to go to the hospital.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:54.752)
Obviously that was a shock to him. He hadn't been processing up to that point what I was feeling. So then you go to the hospital and you think, I'm overreacting. Everything is fine. What can be wrong? And you know, the nurse comes in and does the ultrasound and well, checks for the heartbeat and couldn't find the heartbeat. And they always say, she just must be in a wrong position. I'm just having a hard time finding it. So let's get an ultrasound and brought the ultrasound in.

Of course.

Speaker 2 (09:24.248)
By this point, my heart was already dropping. I came in with ultrasound and then the doctor came in and the weird thing about our hospital system is, it was a Sunday afternoon, obviously, so not a normal staffing situation. But it was my original family doctor with my first daughter, Caitlin, that actually walked in. I recognized him and he was actually semi-retired at that point. But I was kind of thankful that there was at least a familiar face in the room.

well.

Speaker 1 (09:53.516)
door.

And he was the one to have to share with us that she was gone. And our world changed that moment.

Yes, our worlds do absolutely get turned upside down and change and never go back to the same, do they?

Yeah, so a lot of decisions had to be made at that time, which is a really tricky place to grieve when there's a lot of medical things that have to happen, logistic family things, and then funeral things, and then...

Stuff that you never ever thought that you would be planning or having to address or deal with. you guys were there together, right? And this is sometime mid-afternoon or so, early afternoon.

Speaker 2 (10:32.737)
Right.

Speaker 2 (10:41.71)
Early afternoon Sunday and my OB was actually out of town and I knew that. And so the hospital gave us options and said we can induce right now or you can go home and we can induce on Tuesday morning with your own doctor. And we talked about any risks to anything happening and we just really wanted to get you home. We didn't want to be at the hospital anymore.

So we chose to go home and tell our children, which was really hard.

Gosh, yeah, I can only imagine.

Yeah. Sorry.

Listen, you please don't apologize. It doesn't matter how long it's been, Shelley.

Speaker 2 (11:27.566)
Yep, it's true. So yeah, telling our children was not an easy thing. My three-year-old was a daughter, she was three and a half, understood enough about having a baby sister and was really looking forward to a baby sister. And then our oldest is a boy, so completely opposite reactions on emotional, you know, and then trying to understand what they understood and

Obviously the baby was still in my belly. So talk about a confusing time for them to even understand what was going on in the world. My family is from Canada, Ontario, Canada. So my mom wanted to come, but she obviously had planes to catch and things like that. We worked it out that she could get on a flight Monday afternoon. And our plan was to induce Tuesday morning. My husband went to school Monday and taught or tried to teach through

Sure.

Speaker 2 (12:26.892)
the unknown because as a teacher he had a plan for the week and make sure all the ducks were in a row to make sure things were covered for when he wasn't green to be there.

That must have been next to impossible.

I think he put on just a different, you know, just kind of take yourself out of it and put yourself in a different place. Monday afternoon, my water broke. And so I had to call the hospital and they said, yeah, you should come in. So my husband had gone to the airport to pick my mom up. So I called him and he was in traffic. And I just said, when you get here, we need to go to the hospital. My mom walked in and,

around 430, literally walked in my kitchen, I hugged her and I walked out and we went right to the hospital.

But you've been home with the other two all day by yourself.

Speaker 2 (13:19.182)
Just with my daughter, my son had gone to school. So we got to the hospital and I was having contractions and my husband was like, do you wait? Do you want me to drop you off? And I was like, no, just park and I'll just walk in with you. I really didn't want to be alone. And we got checked in and she was born 45 minutes later. It was a miracle that she came quickly. Um, and naturally I'm so thankful we didn't have to be induced. It was actually a blessing.

was a little bit more chaotic and how fast she came. And my doctor was not there, but we had a wonderful doctor.

They make all the difference, don't they?

They do. And our nurses were fantastic. And we had delivered at the same hospital as my daughter. And so we knew some of the staff and things, you know, things change from year to year. But yeah, birthing a dead baby is just not a thing that you would ever want. We were able to, the hospital was great and how they managed stillbirths. They were very caring. We even had nurses come in and ask to hold her and just hold her. So.

Deli, how much time did you guys get to spend with her?

Speaker 2 (14:26.542)
We spent about 24 hours. So we got there Monday night. She was birthed about through 6 45 or so. And we, left Tuesday afternoon and we could have stayed longer if we wanted to, but the hospitals are not super restful. There was a few complications during her birth that I had to go into surgery to get the rest of the placenta removed and things. So, um, we had the organization. Now I laid me down to sleep.

You wanted to go home.

Speaker 2 (14:53.518)
It's an amazing organization of photographers that give up their time. photographer came, I think it was 11 o'clock at night, to take the pictures for us, which I thought was such a blessing.

What an amazing ministry!

With babies, time is of the essence. Their body starts to decrease all the skin and gets all the things happen very quickly. it was a really special thing that they were in. And they do beautiful photos. So we're very thankful for that. So yeah, we got home Tuesday afternoon and we then started having to meet with the funeral home.

That's horrible, it?

You know, Googling things that you never thought you would Google.

Speaker 1 (15:40.214)
Right. Right.

We had my husband's brother connected us to a friend of his. dad had lost about four years earlier of his stillbirth and she was a godsend. She was able to walk us through that week and her dad had been a funeral home director in his life past. So she was able to tell us things to think about as a funeral home and not all funeral homes treat infant deaths the same way. And so finding somebody who would

value the life of a child was important to us and we found that. So, because my husband's a teacher and we're part of a church, we had a lot of support.

That is so incredibly important. We talk about community a lot when our guests share their stories and what a difference it makes when you have that community. You know, it's just the kindness and the wisdom of God, how He puts people in our lives at just the right time for what we're going through. And that's what you were just describing.

somebody who had experienced it and walked with you guys through that for that first week. That first week is just, there are almost no words to attach to it. It's like you're in a different world and it's almost like you're looking at yourself from a different place. And you're in such a state of shock and disbelief that it's so good that God provides people who can.

Speaker 1 (17:19.167)
help you do some things and think about things that you just otherwise wouldn't be able to.

And I think stillbirth is a unique path. It is. And it's my, you know, my only experience with grief. But I think that week of planning is the only chance to honor a child that you never got to know in person. So you're trying to make it so that everybody can share in that life. So, okay. Because my husband's a teacher and we're part of this church, we knew the funeral was going to be larger. We weren't.

I'm not a very public person of wanting a big show. So we decided to do a private burial and viewing and then just do a service at the church without the body there. I didn't think everybody needed to be part of that. So it was an unbelievable crowd and we had friends and family come from long distances. Very well supported. And it was a beautiful time to honor her, but hard, obviously.

Yes, there's nothing more descriptive. You have to go through something like that. It's really unthinkable.

it is, and yet picking out her plot and the tombstone and all the details of things that you literally don't want to do but you have to do. So, but we made it through. God helped us and she made us better.

Speaker 1 (18:44.876)
Let's talk a little bit about that because when you talk with most grieving parents, they will tell you that after the death of their child, they lived two different lives, the life before and the life after. And most will also tell you it leaves you a different person. I don't think you can experience that level of pain and trauma and come through that and be the same person.

What do you think?

for sure. think there's a line in the sand of before October 19th. I look at our pictures before that and I think, look, they're so happy and they don't know.

Yeah, yeah. For you, Shelly, there's so many different aspects of grief that affect us. People on the outside looking in only see part of that. They see the emotional distress. They know that it's sad. But I think what a lot really don't understand is the physical impact on our bodies, the mental impact, because it definitely does impact your brain.

and the spiritual impact and the emotional impact I would say kind of goes without saying. For you, were there any of those aspects of grief that affected you more and were more long lasting than others?

Speaker 2 (20:09.004)
The interesting part of our story is I'm very a control kind of person, being in control and kind of moving the things the way I want to do it. And obviously losing a child realizes that you're not in control. So I think spiritually we went to understanding the sovereignty of God at a deeper level and probably living life differently because of that and understanding it didn't matter what the doctors had told me.

Indeed.

Speaker 2 (20:39.758)
I had a stress test on Tuesday. She died on Saturday. God's ways are not our ways and man can only control so much and our days are numbered and we must live life to the fullest each and every day. So I think perspective, we understood that before, but the deeper level of it all was definitely understood better after Lucy Margaret. So we also wanted another child and the time

clock was ticking. So I sought medical answers pretty quickly, which we didn't get much for medical answers. There wasn't a strong medical correlation of why we lost her, which is good news and bad news. So we had gotten clearance to try for another child pretty quickly. And so that first year after her was trying to get pregnant and then we were successful and then being pregnant,

in the midst of grief, in the midst of anxiety was a lot. I feel like that first year of grief for me was not normal in a lot of people's first year of grief kind of things because my mind was taken over by keeping another child alive.

Yeah, that's a lot of dynamics to have to deal with on a daily basis and and grieve at the same time because grieving itself is, mean, it's almost a full time job for a while because it encompasses everything. I mean, there's nothing that it doesn't touch. Right. And so you're, you've got small children that who also need their mom and they need your attention and

You know, I know from personal experience that there are days when all you want to do is curl up in a corner somewhere. you don't want to talk to anybody. And then the next day you do want to talk to somebody. So it's all over the place. Grief is so incredibly messy. Is it not?

Speaker 2 (22:43.724)
very messy and we had a lot of pink baby things at our house and a nursery that was fully prepared and cleaning that up and taking it down and packing boxes and all those kinds of things. There's a lot of anger that comes into play in those moments too.

Sure. What did you do to deal with that anger, Because that happens to most all grieving parents. You know, there's the sadness and there's the shock and there's the pain. A lot of times we don't... There aren't always safe places to talk about the anger. Can you just sort of touch on that?

Yeah, I think Binding Connection, the girl I talked about that walked us that first week, she had developed, we call it the club. And obviously it's the club of parents that don't want to be in. Other grieving moms, most of them were infant losses, stillbirth to infant young children. And they had some get togethers and times, you know, sometimes it's meeting in somebody's basement, sometimes just getting together for

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (23:51.36)
a park, but they have a Facebook group, private group. And at the time when I joined, it was pretty new and everybody's losses were probably within the last five years. And so people are at different places and it really was a safe place to put some of those deep dark feelings that you feel guilty about feeling with no judgment. And I think that really helped that you weren't alone in those feelings and it allowed you to voice them.

And I think it allowed you to move past them. So I think the beauty of that group of women, even though some of us have never met in person, you're connected, didn't matter.

Isn't it amazing how we connect at a heart level with other grieving parents like you don't in any other kind of situation in life? Yeah, it's just very unique and it really is helpful because you do feel like you can be yourself and you can talk about the things that other people just would not understand at all.

Yeah. Well, I think it gave us perspective too, because some of them were past, you know, three or four years ahead of us and they were in a better place. And it kind of said, okay, they felt this way, but look at them now. Right. And we're not going to be in this place forever. We also, like you said, we had two kids and a busy life, so we didn't get the luxury of sitting in bed and not moving.

Right. Right.

Speaker 2 (25:20.182)
And I think that's okay. I think there's a place to grieve and I think it's good to sit in it, but it's important to keep moving on. a weekend at a grief retreat center in northern Wisconsin. It wasn't Face Lodge, but a similar place, but it was more just one-on-one. It wasn't with other couples, but it allowed us to get away and maybe talk. Men and women grieve very differently too.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:47.01)
Yes indeed.

I think we all did better after we kind of said we're sad.

Yeah, it's real and it's, you know, it's so, I don't know, it just feels so good to find community where you can talk about that at that raw level and you're not judged for it because they get it having been there themselves. Shelley, was somewhere on that grief journey because for you, like us, it's been 10 years.

As you look back, would you say that there was some point in time where you might not have really grasped it then, but you can look back now and you can see that it was kind of a turning point where for so long for us, you know, the focus is on death and loss and, they're not here with us anymore and we're sad and that encompasses most of our emotions. But eventually, it's like you said, you can't stay there.

We use the phrase a lot, this sort of speaks of it, it it's okay not to be okay, it's just not okay to stay not okay. And it doesn't mean that you're moving on, it doesn't mean that you're getting over it, it just means that we're learning how to live with it and to do life with that. So for you, was there a place where the focus became more about life again?

Speaker 2 (27:15.948)
Yeah, I think our story is unique because we did get pregnant almost immediately after Margaret. And like I said, anxiety-filled pregnancy that time. I Margaret's was high risk and with my son, it was, I was a basket case, but he was born at 38 weeks and born on Margaret's birthday, her first birthday, October 9th.

Gosh, I remember when you and I were talking a few weeks ago, you told me that. I mean, that's just amazing to me.

It is, not planned. They both had separate due dates. He was born at six o'clock at night and she was born at six o'clock in the morning. We're at the same hospital. I just, I have a really beautiful God story of we had been at... Obviously my anxiety and end of pregnancy was high. My doctors were really good about taking my calls and they just kept saying, come anytime to triage and never feel guilty. So we did. And...

I just needed to hear heartbeats and have reassurance. So I had been at the hospital quite a bit. The night my water broke at home and I was kind of glad because I knew that they couldn't send me home if your water broke. So I knew that he was going to come. And we got to the hospital and walked in triage. Like I said, we had been there a lot. That day we walked in that evening and the nurse that had been our nurse for Margaret

was the triage nurse. All the other times that we had been there, she was never on duty. But the night we walked in, she was on duty.

Speaker 1 (28:52.13)
Don't you love how God does that?

She saw us and jumped up and hugged and she said, shift is ending, but I'm not leaving. And so she stayed with us through the birth and I think it was really healing for her too. Yeah.

Wow, what a divine appointment. Yeah. That-

He's really special and obviously his birth was very different outcome and he was healthy baby boy and huge

I can I cannot even begin to imagine the sense of relief that you must have felt I know you had so many fears and and your imagination just goes wild with all of that stuff but man I can only imagine when he was born and you you knew that he was healthy and you did well man that must have just been an amazing moment

Speaker 2 (29:43.542)
Yeah. It was. And so I feel like he was part of our healing journey. So I feel like he wasn't a replacement. Very thankful that he was a boy. I would never want somebody to think that he was a replacement. So, but he was a healing bomb to our souls and completing our families. So, okay. So his birthday.

I love that.

Right.

Speaker 1 (29:58.584)
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:13.344)
It's complicated. So he knows we go to the cemetery and we release balloons and put flowers and then we come home and we have cake and we always have a pink cupcake for Margaret. So yeah, he doesn't remember. Obviously he wasn't born. Margaret's part of his story and they'll always share a connection because of that birthday.

Right.

Speaker 1 (30:37.582)
I love that. mean, only people who have been through that can understand that two-fold aspect of that day. But you know, you're celebrating his birthday, but you're also celebrating Margaret's life, even though you guys didn't get to have her with you just for a few hours. But it's still an opportunity to celebrate who she is.

And she was, she is your child. She's just waiting for you in heaven and he is your child. He's not a replacement. As you said, he was intended and he was on purpose and you get to celebrate both on the same day. You know, I know it's a double edged sword, but I think that's an amazing thing for that. You guys are doing, uh, and even though he didn't get to know Margaret.

you're helping him know who his sister is and I think that's so important.

Yeah, we've had some difficult family losses. Obviously Margaret, my husband's brother, passed away suddenly five years ago and we lost a nephew last year. And so my kids take on to a lot of hard funerals and I know some kids haven't had any. So I think that their perspective in life, you know, we would never wish them to have had to live with loss, but I think that God has ordered our steps and this is

opportunities that he's opened for them in understanding grieving people I hope will be something that they'll be able to use for the rest of their life.

Speaker 1 (32:12.31)
think they will. I think that's really important that how you guys are handling that because I think as a result of that, I think it's kind of like what it does to us as adults. I think when you experience that and walk through that grief journey and the healing journey that kind of parallel each other, I think we come out more compassionate and kinder and more empathetic.

Yes, I agree. I remember one of our dear friends at church was really devastated by Margaret's passing. And I remember her telling me she was in her early 60s and she had never been to a funeral that had been so impactful for her. Both of her parents were still living. Both of her in-laws were still living and all of her children were living and none of her children had had miscarriages. She had never had to go to a funeral.

she was connected at that level. And I thought, wow, I can't even imagine being in your early 60s and not having had gone through any grief, not that she's had an easy life and, know, grief can show up in different ways.

at the end.

Speaker 1 (33:20.184)
Yeah, really.

Speaker 1 (33:28.354)
No, but I know what you mean.

So I just thought that was interesting and my poor kids, know, daughter's not even 12 and she's had to go to three impactful funerals that have changed her life. So there's a reason for that. I know that I understand it, but I will use it for.

Yeah, and that's the thing. A lot of times we don't understand it. We never get to see from our perspective what that good is, but we do know that God does take things that are so horrific from our experience and our perspective, which is very limited. And only He is able to bring good out of it. And like you guys, we've seen Him do that.

consistently over the past 10 years and I hear that from so many of the grieving parents. Is there anything that you've learned about God that you didn't know before that you thought maybe you did but you didn't?

I just think the concept of he will carry you when you think all hope is gone. We sang a lot the song He Will Hold Me Fast, which is a Christian song. Just the concept of he's got you.

Speaker 1 (34:42.328)
Yep, absolutely. Before something like that happens, I mean, you know it mentally. I mean, if you've grown up in the church, you're a believer and you've grown up in the church, you know that. But when something like this happens, you learn it on a whole different level. I mean, you just do because you know it experientially then. that changes. It just changes the way that you see it and know it, right?

Yes.

And we both know that when we talk about hope, it's not a concept. The hope that we're talking about is hope that we have in a relationship with Jesus. And there's nothing that can replace that. cannot imagine going through what we've all been through without a relationship with him. Wouldn't want to know. Well, listen, I want to kind of turn the direction of our conversation a little bit because I do

Want you to spend some time talking about your role in what's currently called hope. Hope works here, thank you. But it's changing and what's it going to be called?

works here.

Speaker 2 (35:54.574)
So the organization will be called the Child Loss Foundation. And within that organization, I will be working on Child Loss at Work. And Child Loss at Work is a program that was created back in 2017. And it was born out of all the conversations of talking to grieving parents that were at Bates Lodge. And the number one thing they said after burying their child, the hardest thing was going back to work. That transition back into something that most people don't have a choice.

going back to work, there's bills to pay, life has to go on in the sense of financial security. But when they walk back into a cubicle where they come back as a different person and yet the world around them remains the same. They expect them to be the same and yet some people are uncomfortable. So now they're also the person that walks in and everybody around them all does the look.

and expects them to be the same.

Speaker 2 (36:51.752)
And then the conversation stops and the awkward silence happens and the uncomfortableness of grief in the workplace because nobody knows how to handle it.

Yes, that is very well said.

It's tricky on coworkers, tricky on management, tricky with HR, all the things. It's uncomfortable. So this program was designed to help both the grieving employee and their employer because it really needs to be both sides to make it more successful. We try to say we want to soften the landing, that it's never going to be perfect. It's never going to be without pain, but we can help.

we can try to do better and we try to give them tools. So the program has four different facets and it's an employer sponsored benefit. So we go into organizations and offer this as a benefit to their HR management. We're typically talking to HR or wellness community people. We're usually in that realm of benefits. The beauty of our program is it's free to offer. We do not charge.

Right.

Speaker 2 (38:06.318)
for offering the service. want everybody to have access to the benefit. The only time that company will pay is actually when they have a grieving employee.

Why would anybody refuse this?

Exactly. makes it and obviously there's companies out there that have committed to us because this is the culture that they want to build in their companies. It's really being caring for their humans that they are employing. So as being part of the program, we offer ourselves as grief experts. We as an organization, all we do all day is to work with grieving people and grieving parents, which is a whole segment of grieving

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:48.546)
people that is, we say it's an unimaginable loss, that it's a different kind of loss. it can be a parent of a stillborn or a parent of a 30 year old. You're still a parent. Still dealing with a lot of different kinds of grief that are unique to that kind of grief. So we offer us as the grief experts, and that might be finding resources both for the employer team,

Yes.

Speaker 1 (39:03.102)
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (39:10.445)
Yes.

Speaker 2 (39:18.57)
or for the grieving employee. Sometimes teams are devastated by the loss of a co-worker's child. If you have a really tight organization where you have long-term employees that have worked 20 plus years and you have watched their children grow up and all of a sudden there's a loss, sometimes that team actually needs some help. Of course. it's just as their own grief to deal with. And then we offer a mental health professional

that we have vetted. So we have a team of mental health professionals that understand what we do. They understand what our expectations are. And we have a list of deliverables that we want them to work with with the employee. And they also meet with the team before the employee comes back. So before the employee returns to work, they meet with this coach. We call it a coach because they're really working through a plan of, okay, this is your story and how can we help

make this transition into work better. And some of that conversation will be, what do you want your team to know? And what don't you want them to know? What parts do you want to share? It could be as simple as when you walk in the room, do you want people to jump up and give you hugs? Or would you rather you enter the room and they just let you be? Because there are some people that hate hugs. And it could really change their story if everybody wants to come up and hug them.

just simple things like that. Then the coach goes and actually meets with that team before the employee returns and they're going to sit down in a room or on Zoom and they're going to have a talk with that team. It could be basic grief 101. Here are things you should say. Here are things you shouldn't say. Giving them tools to be successful at helping that employee transition back to work. It will also be sharing a little bit about what that employee wants them to know so that the

The can be the one to share instead of the employee having to share their story 100 times. And it could be, hey, they want to hear their child's name and they want you to ask them to share a bit about their story. Or it could be, you know what, when they're at work, they really want to just be at work and they don't want to mix. So send them a card and share in that way, but don't bring it up during their work time.

Speaker 1 (41:22.082)
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:44.288)
It could look different. Everyone is so unique and it's never a one size fits all. Then the coach also meets with the employee, grieving employee a little bit after they return to work. So they get three sessions in total. So one before one with the team and then a few weeks, few months, depending on the employee to say, how are things going? What else do you need? What are things that you're struggling with and how can we help you to be more successful? That's a really neat.

part of our program. The other piece of it is that we offer a retreat at Faith's Lodge in Wisconsin so that the employer is gifting that employee a stay so they can tell the employee, know what, we don't understand, but we know somewhere that you can go that there are people that do. And we want to give you this. It's way better than flowers. It's a way to tangibly give them something that will help them in their grief journey.

So that's a really special part of the program.

This is one of the most unique ministries that I have read about and heard you explain just now. One of the things that you guys are doing that I think is so critical, that is so lacking in our culture, is the aspect that you just described, which you're directly involved in, and that's helping employers.

to be able to come alongside and offer resources and just let employees know that while they may not understand what they're going through, they know that it's changed their life and that things are not going to be the same. They're not the same person coming back to work, but we value you and we want to work with you.

Speaker 1 (43:33.976)
to try to make that transition as good as it can possibly be. We want to honor your child in any way that you want us to, both with the team you're working with and just how you do your work and interact with other people. I think this is an invaluable organization, Shelley, and if somebody's listening today and they're in a position, maybe they're an HR manager, maybe they know somebody who is.

What's the best way for them to get more information about this?

Yeah. So childlossatwork.com is our website. So like we said, we were called HopeWorks here and we're transitioning the child loss at work name. Both places will send you to the same place. So either way will be fine. You can reach out to us directly through that website and it will come right to my desk. I would love to talk to anybody that's interested. Typically what we would do in talking with HR is we have a presentation that we would show them. Statistics, some of our statistics are

crazy to think about one in every thousand employed person will lose a child. And so if your company has 50,000 people, you can do the math of how many of grieving employees. There are instances where those grieving employees get lost in the shuffle of corporations. And our goal is to make sure that no employee is left behind in giving them these resources. And so

We have a contract that we would have them sign an agreement contract sounds really scary. It's just an agreement. Right. It says you're going to offer us as a service and we will do our best to be an expert in this space for them. And then on our website, we have an open a case button. And as soon as you have a great case in your corporation, you just fill that information out and we are on it. And we.

Speaker 2 (45:32.866)
work with HR person, work with the grieving employee and the mental health coach and we work in between where the liaison. We help the HR people even draft communication on how do you share this with your employers, employees. We talk about their bereavement policy. Every policy is a little bit different. We talk about how short-term disability could be part of it, medical leave, all the different things. HR has a lot of areas that they're in charge of and grief.

is not typically their top priority. And we can't expect them all to be experts in that space. And so that's why we're here. And we're here to help you find the answers that you need quickly.

Personally, and I think I speak for hundreds, if not thousands of other grieving parents, this is such an amazing resource. And I hope that people who are listening today that have the ability to make a connection with your company, your organization for their company, I hope that they'll reach out and try to get connected with you guys. But what kind of reception have you guys been getting, Shelly?

We, it's been a slow growth. have about 30 companies enrolled right now. Okay. And some companies use us a lot more than others and it's not about size of company. We typically find the most supportive companies are the companies being like 50 to 1500 people tend to care. Culture of care is a little bit different in those organizations. The bigger the company, the more red tape there typically is. But we have companies from 10 people.

all the way to 50,000 employees. So there's no limit to which companies we have. We've also, this program was created in 2017. We all know what happened in 2020. And as a nonprofit, there was a lot of just survival mode kicked in for a couple of years. We started to really push it.

Speaker 2 (47:38.286)
about a year and a half ago, and then that's when the rebrand started to be talked about. And so now we're super excited about being part of this Child Loss Foundation umbrella and being part of Child Loss at Work. And now the sky's the limit on how we can grow this program. So we see this 2025 as the biggest year of growth. And it's so much more than helping just the grieving employee. It's grief education and making grief not uncomfortable.

If you ask anybody on the street if they can think of somebody that they know that has lost a child, I would say 95 out of 100 will say they know somebody. Sure. This is not so unique, but people don't want to talk about it.

No, they don't. it's hard for the parents because we don't come with, you know this as well as I do, we don't come with an instruction booklet when we have children. So we don't know what to do. Whereas you said losing a child is a very, it's an unnatural thing to have to experience because we expect to outlive our children. And it's awkward for people who are on the outside trying to relate to us. So what you're doing is

pulling everybody together for a common purpose of helping that grieving parent and helping the team that they work with and the individuals they work with. And I love that you guys are offering this free of charge. I can't imagine why any employer, why any HR director would not want to have this as a part of what they offer to their employees. So I encourage you to do that if you're listening and you're not doing it.

Yes, thank you. The statistics say 50 % of unsupported grieving people will leave their job within a year of their grief. we can't always, we will never be able to guarantee that offering our program will guarantee that the employees, but I can promise you that we have talked to several people that have gone through this program that are more than loyal to their organization that

Speaker 2 (49:52.716)
because of the support that they received. And a lot of them feel that their story is tied to their company because of that support that they received.

Of course. So there are benefits to everybody. I mean, if you want an employee who has suffered the absolute worst, if you want them to become healthy and whole again and continue in their role as an asset to your company, why wouldn't you take advantage of this? I mean, it's just a unique thing. I'm so encouraged because 10 years ago when this happened to us, I was very blessed to be part of a company that did everything they could.

to come alongside Cathy and me and give me the time that I needed for us to grieve together and just go through all of those legal things that you have to do that you never think about and planning funerals and all that stuff. And then when all that's over, then real life starts again and you got to figure out how to navigate through that. And it's not an easy thing to do. So thank you guys so very much for all that you're doing.

Thank you on a personal level, Shelley, for just for your honest, raw, transparent emotions that you shared with us today. Ten years later, people don't understand that it doesn't matter how long it's been. It still brings back all of those emotions and those feelings all over again when we start talking about it.

It's true. I didn't expect it all to come up as much as it did today. Sorry about that.

Speaker 1 (51:30.638)
Please don't apologize. think that's one of those things about grief that we have zero control over. there's anything can trigger it. So man, I'm just so appreciative and so honored that you would come and share your story about your sweet daughter, Margaret, and share with us. Give us some glimpses into your family today and this.

great organization that you're working for and for our listeners I know you may not have been able to have written down the the link that Shelly shared so I will have that in Shelly's episode description so if you would like to contact her you will have the ability to simply click on it and you can get all the information you need

I would love to talk to anybody that's interested in coming to Fates Lodge. It's definitely a unique place and it doesn't matter how long ago your grief was. It's a safe place to share with people's stories at any time.

You're a great representative for this company, Thank you. Thank you. Again, Shelley, thank you so very much.

Thank you, Greg.