Hope After Child & Sibling Loss/the empty chair endeavor

Incomprehensible Loss, Courageous Faith with Janet Boxx

• The Empty Chair Endeavor • Season 8 • Episode 9

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In this heartfelt conversation, Janet Boxx shares her profound journey through grief after experiencing the loss of her son through stillbirth and later, the tragic loss of two daughters in a car accident. You’ll hear us talk about how she’s continuing to navigate the messiness and complexity of grief, as well as cultural misunderstandings surrounding it, and the importance of community support. Janet emphasizes that healing is a long, often unpredictable process that doesn’t always follow standard models or stages.  We also discuss the significance of lamenting and expressing true feelings to God. Ultimately, she shares her hope and contentment found in relationship with Jesus Christ, illustrating that joy can coexist with sorrow. We believe you’ll find this conversation encouraging, and Janet’s faith inspiring.

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Speaker:

Well, hi, and welcome back for another episode. I'm Greg, Buffkin, and today I'll be talking with Janet Boxx as she shares about the unthinkable loss of three children. As we all know, the death of a child is unspeakable trauma for any parent, but to lose three is really difficult to even try to comprehend. Janet's is a story of resilience and faith in the face of such profound pain and suffering. It's also one of how our God and Savior Jesus Christ steps into life's darkest and most painful seasons, offering us his presence, tenderness, compassion, and hope when we need it most. And now here's my conversation with Janet. Well, Janet, welcome to our podcast. It is really good to have you with us today.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for inviting me. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.Yes, of course! and for our listeners, Janet and I have spoken previously by phone. And so we've had the advantage of getting to know each other a bit. So uh for you guys, it'll be the first time. So I would like at this point just to give Janet a couple of minutes and let her share anything that she would like personally. And if you don't want to do that, that's okay too. Nothing like being put on the spot. Yeah. I was gonna say, I I can tell you that I'm the mother of four children. Yeah. Our first child was stillborn as a result of a poor death, and that was at 37 weeks, so he was considered full term. And then we went on to have three daughters, Bethany, Grayson, and Caitlin, Katie. And of the three, Grayson and Katie were born with a progressive neuromuscular disease. And you know, it wasn't diagnosed for a long time. So um for like when they were really young, everybody thought that what was going on was something that they would outgrow. So I don't you might want to cut all of that. So you can introduce the story if you'd like.

Speaker:

Oh no, no. No, that is absolutely fine, Janet. Now I wanted to ask, where do you guys live for our listeners?

Speaker 1:

We live in Bentonville, Arkansas. You might know that as the home of Walmart Corporation.

Speaker:

Oh, yes.

Speaker 1:

That's probably what it's best known for.

Speaker:

Well, you gotta be known for something, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. We can also say we are the home of the world's famous Crystal Bridges Art Museum.

Speaker:

Okay. Okay. Well, you're known for two things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker:

That's better than where we live. We're not really known for much of anything except we're on the crossroads of I-20 and I-95.

Speaker 2:

Where are you?

Speaker:

Yeah, I'm in South Carolina.

Speaker 2:

Okay. Okay.

Speaker:

And we live in a little town that people are familiar with in other parts of the country because they typically come through Florence on 95 if they're headed south to to Charleston or down to Florida. And if they're headed to Myrtle Beach, they come through Florence on I-20. So that's kind of what we're known for.

unknown:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

You're at the crossroads.

Speaker:

We're uh we are a crossroads, exactly. Well, Janet, I just appreciate so much you your willingness to come and share your heart today and and and and share the story not only of your of your of your loss by stillbirth, but you also have a a story of loss with with your two daughters, Bethany and Katie. So we can step back in time just a little and and let you share a little about them and and what happened to bring you to you to the point where where we are today. So why don't we just kind of step back in time and and just kind of fill us in? You know, I know that you lost uh you lost your son, I believe, to stillbirth, and that was your your first child, right?

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes.

Speaker:

I mean, did you guys have any kind of warning or or anything that that that was gonna happen?

Speaker 1:

No, um it was 1992 and you know, had a a very normal pregnancy. Right. Um we did childbirth classes, and in the course of those classes, they kind of discussed, you know, if if uh you don't feel like you feel the baby moving, then drink some apple juice because that will give them a sugar rush and they'll start moving. So there came a point where it was three weeks before his due date, and I was really kind of struggling to tell, is he moving or am I feeling Brexton Hicks contractions? You know, it was my first pregnancy. I really didn't know exactly what to expect. And so there came a day, you know, that I said to my husband, you know, I'm not confident the baby's moving. And I'm a worry wort and he's like, oh yeah, you're just paranoid, you know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, you know, he doesn't expect trouble. And and I don't necessarily expect trouble, but I'm more prone to be concerned about things. Um, so anyway, we got some apple juice and he laid down to take a nap. And I sat there and waited, and nothing happened, and nothing happened. And so I called the hospital and they said, You need to come in. And so they did a sonogram. And the doctor, you know, looked at the nurse and said, you know, we need we need to use up a better sonogram machine. Apparently, they have, you know, basic model on the floor and another one elsewhere. And so she's they're like, fine, and they left the room. And David and I prayed. And I don't know if the nurse came in during the course of our prayer, but she comes back and she said, you know, I just want you to know the the doctor isn't ordering another sonogram to give you hope. She's doing it to confirm her diagnosis. And that's how we were told that he died.

Speaker:

Wow.

Speaker 1:

So you know, it was just really shocking.

Speaker:

And how long before your due date was that?

Speaker 1:

It was three weeks before.

Speaker:

Three weeks.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah. You know, I I think I think sometimes loss by stillbirth or by miscarriage are are really misunderstood by a lot of people because I I suspect maybe, and I'm not sure, but uh, I've had a con a lot of conversations with other moms who have lost children through stillbirth or miscarriage. And I think they uh most feel very that their loss is undervalued.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker:

And I'm not sure why that is, but I suspect it's because people think, well, you know, you you never really got to know them. So maybe it didn't hurt as bad as if you know they had already been here, you know. But that's not the case, is it?

Speaker 1:

No, and I think I think there's a couple of factors. I think that the uh prevalence of abortion and the fact that miscarriage is not all that uncommon has kind of devalued life in the womb.

unknown:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but beyond that, so we discovered that you know, we had we had life insurance, it was supposed to cover your children.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

So life insurance doesn't pay out for a stillborn child.

Speaker:

Really?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the newspaper wouldn't print an obituary. So all of these things kind of add together and they communicate, they communicate that your child didn't exist. And I think that people don't really know how to deal with pre-birth losses. That I think they when a miscarriage happens early on, I think you have a little bit of less attachment. Um, lots of times they're occurring before you've even felt the child move. It doesn't mean they're unwanted, it's just you you haven't had time to, you know, really, you haven't spent all your time preparing for the child. You may not have done anything with a room or clothing or head showers or any of these things that all kind of play into the anticipation of the child coming. And so people don't know how to talk about it. And so they really don't. And the way we are comforted is generally by, well, you can have another, as if people are replaceable.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Everybody who's lost a spouse knows or lost a child of any age knows that people are not replaceable, you know.

Speaker:

And no, they indeed are not.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So And sometimes I think people just they say things that if they stopped and thought about seriously before they said it, they probably wouldn't have said it.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker:

And the and that's a good example of one. You know, well, you can always have another child, or you can always find another husband or another wife, you know, and the list goes on.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I was shocked.

Speaker:

But that's not helpful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I was shocked to learn of uh widows, you know, of any age. Like you're a widow of 60, and people wait three months and then they're wanting to set you up. And it's like, what? You know, and it's really we are a culture that's uncomfortable with death.

Speaker 2:

And we're very very much so.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we're very positive thinking forward. And so it's like we have to find the next positive thing. And what would the next positive thing be?

Speaker:

Yeah, we're a culture that's not too keen on lament.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker:

The whole idea of actually spending time stepping into and experiencing the pain and the suffering caused by, in our cases, grief from the loss of a child. And so, you know, people want us to move on. They want us to, they they want the the us that was pre-loss back in their lives so that we can just kind of carry on with our original relationship. But it doesn't work that way. They don't get the old us back, they get a new version of us because we're never the same again.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker:

Now, for you, as if that wasn't enough to experience the loss of your son through stillbirth, fast forward 12 years later, and you lose two of your daughters in a traffic accident, and the third third daughter is critically injured in that same accident. Now, some people you know might would think, well, you know, she Janet's experienced grief previously, so maybe she's a little bit better prepared this time, and it's not as bad as it would be otherwise. And I suspect I know the answer to that is absolutely not true.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, Janet, I I've rarely, rarely interviewed anybody who has been through the number of losses that you've been through, where the it all involves the loss of a child. Most of us feel like we barely survived the loss of one child and cannot imagine having to live through it again. Tell us what there's probably no words. I'm having a hard time coming up with even how to answer, ask you this question, but how do you walk, step into that level of grief again, and this time magnified even more? You're grieving the loss of two daughters, and you've got another daughter in the hospital, you're not sure is going to survive this accident either. How do you do that?

Speaker 1:

So let me back up just a minute to make a correction. It was 21 years between when Cole was born and when the collision occurred.

Speaker:

Oh, I apologize.

Speaker 1:

I had the uh that maybe that's 12 years almost since the collision. So that's where you got that.

Speaker:

I thought maybe I had dyslexia for a minute and didn't know it.

Speaker 1:

You know, that would be a good ex explanation since they're just you know.

Speaker:

Right. Okay, well, thanks for correcting that.

Speaker 1:

So, well, how do you begin? Honestly, when you lose a bunch all at one time, it's not like you were so when you lost your child, it was it was overwhelming. It was pretty much all you could think about because it was kind of your world.

unknown:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Okay, so when you lose multiples, it's really the same. It's not like you have, oh, this level would be my grief if I just lost one. But now I have to add 10 more pounds on top of that. So if I just lost two. And then I have to add this on. The emotions all come at once. So they're not like easily divisible, if if that makes sense.

Speaker:

Yeah. Um it it does. I think we just think in terms of I guess magnitude of grief. Yeah. And in our, you know, in our minds, we just associate, well, gosh, if it was this bad, and then you add this to it, oh, good grief. I mean, how do you even begin to try to to to move forward at all?

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker:

And and process something like that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So and moving forward is really putting one foot in front of the other.

Speaker:

Yeah. Yeah. I imagine it w it would have to be on a almost a minute-by-minute basis some days.

Speaker 1:

Yes. You like I was really driven by what Bryson's needs were. And, you know, that's not to say I didn't care about my husband. He was actually injured as well. But, you know, it's like as a parent, you have this role. And and David was up and walking and moving, you know. So, you know, I knew that he was being treated, you know, that his physical needs were being met. We were still, you know, he he needed more rust, that kind of thing. So that was a part of that. But primarily my focus was on her and whatever her needs were. And you just you just deal with what's directly in front of you is basically what you do.

Speaker:

Yeah. Well uh Janet, would you would you say that be because your your focus had to be your surviving daughter? Do you do you do you think in retrospect that it uh that it helped in grieving your your two daughters who didn't survive it? Or do you think that that maybe it delayed your your ability to really grieve for them? Does does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So I guess I would say that one, uh you know, you we don't we don't just grieve death in life. We grieve lots of different things. Um and my daughter's health had been an issue, and and so I by that I mean Grayson had a progressive neuromuscular disease, and her sister, younger sister Katie, had the same disease. Um Grayson was more severely impacted and was two years ahead. So her degree of disability was greater, and kind of, you know, what she was dealing with was much more visible, much more demanding at that time. But we had two kids that we were, so we were already grieving things like lost mobility, which they could walk, but their balance was affected, and it affected their gait. There was trips and falls, and it affected fine and gross motor skills. So it it was really an overall effect, but to different levels. So, but we were grieving those the loss of mobility and the loss of hopes and dreams and expectations.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah. And I think uh sometimes people who who talk uh a lot about about grief who who are in some role of or in a position to help grieving people, you know, they'll refer to what you just said as future grief. And if we we grieve those things that that never will happen. Sometimes I think that's that's something that people on the outside miss. You know, they uh from their perspective, we're grieving the loss that we just experienced that they know about, you know, that they've heard about, they've seen, but what they don't realize is that you know, we grieve those next Christmases. We grieve when we see somebody else's child get married, and we think, you know, that that could have been my child. And and the list just kind of goes on and on and on, as you well know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah, I would I would say that's true. So I don't I wouldn't say it postponed my grieving or you know, delayed it in any way. When you say did it kind of help I I guess, you know, it was just part of it. Like it added layers to the grief.

Speaker:

That's a good way to put it, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So I don't know about when you lost your child. For me, it's it's like the Holy Spirit is like we're working on this issue. I mean, your mind is consumed with this, that, and the other, right? And he He's helping you process through through those things. Maybe you get past that. And then you're grieving the next thing. So maybe you were initially grieving the fact that your child was never going to start kindergarten. You know, if you've lost a young child or an infant and you're watching the people, the children that would have been born around the same time, they're starting to do that and you're hitting that area of grief. So maybe you're grieving for a teenager, you know, the fact that they didn't go to prom or uh graduate high school or graduate college, and and you're you're addressing those things kind of sometimes you're looking forward to those, and sometimes it and and you're aware of them. And then when the the season actually comes, then you're addressing them again.

Speaker 2:

Again, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. It's kind of like, you know, it's not like a circle where you're repeating on the same path, but more like an upside-down tornado. You know, the the cone. Right. It's like you're going up and and you're going, you're coming back around to it, and you're grieving at different levels as you rise through this cone.

Speaker:

Yeah. And I think that that goes, that speaks directly to to the fact that grief is just messy.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker:

And it's terribly unpredictable. You know, we you don't ever know when one of those when there's going to be something that triggers it and you get hit by a wave that you just didn't see coming at all.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yeah, you know, we know that there are some. We know that, you know, when the holidays come, when our child's birthday comes, when when our birthday comes around, uh Father's Day, Mother's Day, you can see those things coming.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker:

I'm not sure that I would say you can prepare for it, but at least you can see them coming, and you're not taking it it's not like being blindsided.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker:

But some of these other things, like you're talking about, you know, a smell, you know, some a scent of of your child on clothing or something that you saw that your child made for you when they were in kindergarten and you hadn't seen it in years, those are the kind of things we're we're talking about that can really sneak up on you.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Yeah. And actually, you know, it's been, it'll be 12 years in December. So we've been through 11 Miss birthdays for each of the girls. Well, we just had Katie's birthday was Sunday. So some years, because I processed a lot of my grief, some years the birthday is not a particularly hard day. And then there are years where you're just surprised that, oh, I'm I'm really having a hard time today. And you know, it creeps up on you, and you're you are, you're kind of blindsided by it. You're not prepared because you think, I think I processed that.

Speaker:

But exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I kind of feel like I so my philosophical thinking is I I view the Holy Spirit as extremely meticulous. I think that working through grief takes a long, long time because he works on something when you're ready for it. And if you're not ready to move to the next step, he waits. He lets you work on something else. And um, maybe if you're really lucky, he gives you a little kind of a reprieve. Yeah, you have a few weeks or months or uh whatever where you're doing much better, you know, not like not like it's it's great, but it's much better.

Speaker:

Yeah, and it it's not a linear progression. Yes. You know, it's like you you said, you know, you can you feel like you're making some strides forward. You have some you have you start having more good days than bad days, and you kind of think maybe maybe I'm out of the woods a little bit. And then I know it's a life yeah, exactly. Boom. It's a lifetime journey. Uh and you know, we we know that you don't you don't ever get over it. Yes, you learn to live with it and you learn to live through it.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker:

And we know that well. Uh and if you have an experience that it's probably incredibly difficult to understand. But I wanted to ask you too, when I was just thinking about what what you guys have been through. And we know that grief is people see grief as the emotions, people who are looking at seeing us, doing life with us, they see it as our our emotions in that we cry sometimes. We're sad, you know, sometimes we're down. But you know, you you and I know also that you know there's the physical impact, there's the mental impact or spiritual impact. What if looking back over these let's concentrate, I guess, over these past 12 years particularly. What what did you struggle with the most of all? Or would it would you say I can't separate it out? It was all of them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Uh like it was ugly. Let's just say it that way.

Speaker:

Grief's not pretty, is it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So, you know, I I I think it's impacted by a lot of things like seasons of life. So when Cole died, we were in a season of building a family, and then, you know, there came other kids, and it didn't make him any less valuable, but it gave us some things to look forward that we missed without him. Right. Um right. And it also, I mean, there were things about dealing with grief that I did process when we lost him that I didn't have to readdress when the girls died. Okay. So for example, you know, a lot of people say things and they're well-intentioned. And then they really everything you hear, you interpret. It's it's like walking through fog in terms of one, how your brain works. Right. But two, everything you see in front of you is through this haze of grief. And if you know anything about fog, it also distorts sound. So everything you hear, you interpret through the filter of grief. So when somebody says something and they think it's really encouraging, your mind is parsing out the statement and you find the part that, well, that's not quite right. And and really, that's kind of offensive sometimes, you know? And it's like yes. So it's like, what do you do with that? And I really struggle with that after Cole died. And I wouldn't say that I necessarily handled it really well, but after the girls died, one, I knew to expect these comments. And because I'd worked through them, for the most part, I mean, there were one or two that came up that I hadn't encountered before that, that I kind of had to process and work through. But for the most part, those just like rolled off. And expectations are always hard to deal with. I felt like we were in a different age. You know, it's like I say, 20 years had passed. The expectations for the public, for people in grief, like I said, we're in a really positive oriented society, especially 12 years ago. I think we're moving, like, I think people realize there's a point where positivity can become toxic. And I think we are in that phase now, but we were not 12 years ago. And so gosh, where was I going with this? Oh, what I was gonna say is people generally gave you about a year, they expected you to process everything within about a year.

Speaker:

Yeah, I'd say that's pretty accurate.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And so after that year was over, then there was a frustration if you're not done with it. Right?

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

And so I experienced some of that. I, you know, right off, some of my expectations were more realistic. One, I knew, I know that that there's healing from grief. And you know, if someone would say, well, for example, to say you were still grieving your son when your daughters died, I would say that's not quite accurate. And the reason I would say that is because I see grief, and you've kind of referred to this as two processes. There's the active grieving phase, and that's when you're processing all the emotions, the thoughts, your beliefs, them, the expectations, you're working through all of those things, and it's overwhelming and tumultuous, and it's a really challenging time. And you don't always see the Lord working in the midst of it because everything feels bad for a very long time.

Speaker:

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but I knew that at some point you process through those things, and your days are I wasn't actively grieving my son when my daughters died. Now, when he when they died, it brought up some things from the past. But, you know, at that point, to me, like the second phase of grief is the living with it. And it's like, oh, here's a trigger. Now I need to deal with the trigger for something in the past. But it was not an everyday, this is very sorrowful. There are moments when, you know, you hit a reminder and you're sad, and sometimes it's just like, oh, somebody stuck a knife through my chest and that really hurt. And then they pulled it out, and it's like, I don't know, some like sci-ci movie where it just automatically heals right away. It's like, oh, I I received the blow and now it's gone, and you release it. And so I would say it was kind of in that place. So one, I knew that healing was possible to, and and it's important to me to say that because I think sometimes we say you often hear in the lost community that you know you you grieve forever. And for somebody who's new to that, that's really frightening. You know, when you're living in this phase of intense pain, it's like it's never gonna get better. They just said it's never gonna get better.

Speaker:

Yeah, I'm glad that you've brought this up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And for other people, if you say it's not always gonna be like this, it's not gonna be as tense, sometimes that's hard for them to hear too, because we often associate feeling better as the fact that we no longer need this person or we don't love them as much as we should. And it's like we are devaluing them ourselves. So that's one of the reasons why grief is really challenging.

Speaker:

It's almost like you're it feels like a betrayal uh of your child in some in some ways.

Speaker 1:

Yes. So gosh, I've I've done all that talking, and that was in preface to your question, which I cannot remember. Sorry.

Speaker:

Oh no, no, no, no, no. There there was no right or wrong answer to that, Janet. No. Uh so where was I going with that? I appreciate what what you've shared. And I think it's very helpful that you know for people to hear that. I did want to circle back to something you touched on a few minutes ago, and that's how other people deal with us and how we deal with other people after we lose a child. So yeah, I'm just gonna ask, and you can you can tell me if you don't want to answer it, that's okay. But did did you have people walk away from you after you lost your children, or did you just have to walk away from some people because maybe they've just felt a bit toxic?

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

To both.

Speaker:

I suspected you might say that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that you know, we have a group of friends and they are kind of going through the same stages in life. So when you encounter problems, lots of times there's something relatable. And then when you lose a child, there are people, it's like, I can't go there. I I and it's because it's terrifying to them. Yeah, they cannot imagine surviving it themselves, they don't know what to say to you. And so, like, avoidance would probably be the way they respond.

Speaker:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we've experienced that as well.

Speaker 1:

Yes. And then there's other people. There are some people in your life that there are people around you, they might not be in your immediate circle, but maybe they're in your church group, something like that.

Speaker 2:

Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

They're the person that knows everything that's going on everywhere, right?

Speaker:

Don't we all know somebody like that?

Speaker 1:

Yes. And so sometimes they care about you, and um, sometimes they're really good at eliciting information from you, but sometimes it's less about caring about you than it is about wanting to be able to be the person in the know. To, you know, how is she doing? Well, I can tell you how she's doing, and you know, that kind of thing. And it's not necessarily that they want to gossip about you, it's that they like to be the person in the know, you know. And and there are people that, you know, I think sometimes we, as believers, we fall into gossip kind of innocently and we don't realize how painful it was. One of the difficulties of greeting after the girls died was because I felt like gossip was an issue when Cole died. And I so one of the things I really tell people, newly bereaved people, is to look for safe friends. And you know, safe friends are people one that that can talk about hard things, and two are people that you know don't share information with others, they're productive of your emotions, your heart, and that kind of thing. And they're people that validate feelings. So sometimes you there are some wonderful people who are real encouragers. At the same time, their direction is always in the future and not helpful for today.

Speaker:

Um, I understand that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so um, I think one of the things I've really discovered was what I was looking for from people was someone to say, I think I'd feel the same way. And that doesn't necessarily mean that my feeling is a positive feeling. So, like the person who caused the accident that that killed my daughters, you know, I I was not I really examined my heart, you know, is am I looking for revenge or accountability or what am I looking for? But you know, there's the part of you, it's like, I really like the picture just grabbing around the neck and smashing his head against the wall. And if, you know, that doesn't mean I really want to do it. It means it's the grief speaking.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it's that, you know, this was not right. And this person, you know, maybe they haven't expressed any accountability. Maybe they're rejecting it.

Speaker:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

And so it's like, you know, if they won't be accountable, I want to be able to be accountable. Now, when you when you encounter somebody like that in your grief, it's, you know, I think I'd feel the same way. You're not really thinking about like doing anything like that, right? Right. So here you've got you're you're finding out one, because you know, there are people that will behave in vengeful ways, and you you never want to encourage that.

Speaker:

You know, you know, you don't want to get on the same level.

Speaker 1:

Yes. And it's like we do things according to the law. That's how we how we respond. But I absolutely understand your emotions, and you know, I I'm confident I'd feel the same way. And that makes you feel like, oh, it's okay to feel this way. Yeah. Yeah. To think the thought, you know, not expecting to, and I think a lot of it is uh I think a lot of brief, I think our society is not well educated about grief. We don't know what's normal, and so lots of times the brief themselves are wondering if they're normal.

Speaker:

And I I completely agree.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that was a big part of my journey in part because I was like, so I have this idea of how a believer is supposed to respond to grief. Some of this I know is realistic, some of it I know is not, and I'm countering that from other people and I'm encountering it within myself, right? But when you have multiple losses, and so technically, psychologists would say that the loss of a child is a traumatic loss. Um they just they just define it that way. So multiple traumas, let's say multiple traumas, how do how do people that are healthy and how do believers in particular that have encountered this how do they respond? Because I wanted to know if what I was doing was normal. And it was really hard to even like get online and find research that would tell you that.

Speaker 2:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

And you know, sometimes you have these feelings and you don't think these are the feelings I should be feeling. So, you know, the the event at the side of the road, you know, that I think I don't often talk about PTSD because I think that people think oh, you know, you're you're making a mountain out of the molehill, you know, car accidents are common and you know, that kind of thing. They don't understand what trauma looks like, and you as an individual, you don't even You don't know what it looks like. So you have these things going on and you don't know why you're acting this way or thinking this way or feeling this way.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so you know, it it's um challenging. So like initially. Well, I I've I finally I had a grief counselor and I finally asked her, you know, how how do people like that have multiple things going on? I know I'm not that unique in the world at large, you know, there are lots of people who have suffered, you know, what I have or more, you know, there are people out there. And how do they respond? And particularly how do Christians respond? And and she was asking me, well, she handed me a notebook and said, What how would you describe your feelings? You know, just write them down. And you know, I I I ended up with two words on my list, and it was detached and numb. And basically I felt detached. It's like I see myself, I know this is horrible. I feel horrible, and yet I don't feel like I think I should feel. It's like I'm watching myself move through this. And I have people that are crying in front of me, and I'm not. And then you have people looking at you like, what's wrong with you? And you, of course, are saying what's wrong with you. And I had no idea that this was a normal part of trauma, that this is, you know, you've disassociated. And that disassociation can take a very long time. And when you, you know, it resolves, you know, it goes away, but it can take a long time. And some of that depends on what the actual circumstances are. But people think that at least I think this is what people think that once you do the funeral, you know, once you accept that you this is the circumstances, you've buried this child. The funeral is kind of like in people's mind, the starting point of recovery. And that is just wrong. It's really the part where you start assessing and recognizing the totality of the loss.

Speaker:

Yeah, it really is the starting point of uh of the grief journey.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker:

And I think so many people who who are looking in from the outside, you know, after the the funeral, like you were you were just just talking about, they go back to their normal everyday lives. They go back to work, they go back to school, whatever their life was before. And for someone who's lost a child, it feels like their world has stopped.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

It feels like it's standing still, and nobody understands that I'm here in this place that I could never have imagined. I don't know what to do with it. I don't know how to do it. I didn't come with an instruction book uh on how to grieve or how to grieve well. I just suddenly found myself there and I don't know how to do this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And it it's hard, it hurts, and you know, I just I don't even want to be here having to deal with this.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And I think unfortunately, sometimes in the in the Christian community, you kept using the word a few minutes ago. This is not, I wonder if if this is how I'm supposed to grieve. And I think we put too many expectations on ourselves as followers of Jesus sometimes because I'm a Christian, so I should be able to, or I should feel this way, I shouldn't feel that way. And the truth of the matter is the difference for us is that we have the gift of God's Spirit living in us to help us. He doesn't take it away, but he enables us to walk through it. If we'll partner with him in doing that. But we make it sometimes harder on ourselves because we we put these expectations on ourselves that that God doesn't put on us. We do it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And sometimes the the church will do that as well, unfortunately.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And you know, we just have to remember it it's okay not to be okay. It now, it's not okay to stay not okay. You know, we we do need to be able to at some point to do some things, to engage in some things that lead us back to life and that enable us to to heal and and become whole again. But as you said, you've said many times, it's a long process. If we if we expect, you know, we're we we live in a microwave culture. We expect everything to happen instantly. Healing should be instant. Uh yeah, but it doesn't work that way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker:

There's a process.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And I helped facilitate group chair at our church. And a couple of sessions ago, someone asked me, like at the very end, it's like, why did it take you so long? And I think that the question was really because, you know, there is a place when you're grieving, everything has hurt for so long, and you're just kind of desperate to not hurt anymore. And so if it took me so long, it's fearful that for that person that it might take them that long. And you know, they kind of recognize, well, she's not in that same place now, but you know, it's almost like, what did you do wrong? And I know that wasn't the intent of the question, but I think it was the underlying issue. And, you know, I said, you know, it it it was really pretty layered in the fact that, well, one, when when the collision happened, David was unemployed. You know, we were burying two kids, we we had one who had health issues and we were working on recovery, and we knew we understood, but I don't think the people around us for the majority understood her disease. So when I say that I understood this, what I was saying is she was gonna heal to a certain level, which may or may not be where she was before, it was not. And then once she gets to that place, that's the best it's ever gonna be. From there, it's all downhill in increments. And so while other people were looking for progressive healing and at least getting to a place where everything's stable, I knew it was not stable. And you know, it's it so this expectation that I should be able to get to a place where I'm living with this stable place, you know, is one, it's like if you know this is not gonna be the way it is, and somebody else does, at least they understand and they're not pushing something upon you. It's like, but if they don't understand that, then you're halfway fighting to say, I'm I'm doing this right, and this is taking my time, I know this is right because I'm having to learn to adjust to the fact that it's never going to be stable and it's never gonna be what it what I want it to be. And that takes a lot of time. And then you're also having to come to terms with it's it's a really uncertain future. I mean, people think, well, it's stabilized, they don't realize that you're still living in massive uncertainty because that health is continuing to change. What's it gonna look like? How bad's it gonna get? When after the collision, I read the hospital uh notes from the doctors, and and one of them had written about Grayson's recovery that they expected she might end up in long-term care, just like right then, from then on. You know, and well and you know, most people didn't even recognize that might be a possibility, and they just so it's like she she recovered enough that she was able to independently get in and out of her wheelchair, you know, navigate the world to a degree. So she went to college, she lived in the dorm. This is something we really wanted for her, and was we were also extremely terrified about. You know, when you've lost repeatedly, you're just kind of living on waiting for the next shoe to drop.

Speaker:

You know, yeah, I hear that quite often.

Speaker 1:

Yes. So, you know, that was that was really stressful time and people's expectations for you are just completely unrealistic, and yet they don't realize it. So it's true, it's like, you know, how do you make somebody understand that what you're requesting of me is not realistic? And yeah, and what you find is that when you try to say, you know, this is not realistic because of blah, blah, blah, what you get is that devil's advocate who tells you why you're thinking is wrong, as opposed to going, Oh, oh, thank you for clarifying what's going on because I didn't understand that's how this works.

Speaker:

Yeah. Or simply just listening to us without having to add something to it. Because if you haven't lived it, then how can you how do you how what authority do you have to speak into that person's life about how they should be? And you fill in the blank. You you can't. You're putting yourself in a position you're not qualified for. And we we don't need other people laying their expectations on us about how we should grieve, how long it's how you know how long it's been, you know, you you need to, you know, come on, don't you think that you need to be a little further along by now? So all of those things you're having to contend with as well. So to be clear for our listeners, we you and I want them to understand there is no right or wrong way to grieve. What what works for you, what gives you comfort, and what gives you peace, and and we can both tell you that that real comfort and peace are found in the person of Jesus Christ. We know that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

You can you can try to find that in other ways, but uh we can both tell you it it won't satisfy, it won't answer your questions. And God doesn't promise to answer all of our questions as it relates to the death of our child.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker:

He simply asks us to partner with him, invite him into our grief with us, give it to him, and he promised that he would walk with us through it. I love Psalm 34, 18, I believe it is, that says, God is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit, which very accurately describes someone like us who's lost a child. And for others, you know, if you're trying to help somebody else who has lost a child, it's not you. You know, Romans 12, 15, I believe it is, correct me if I'm wrong here, Janet, says to celebrate with those who celebrate and to grieve with those who grieve. So offer them your presence. It's okay to offer yourself to come alongside and grieve with them. Sometimes they, you know, we need to borrow from your faith. Sometimes we need to borrow from your strength. But please don't feel like you have to come and offer these magic words that are going to fix us. We're not projects that need to be fixed to begin with. You know, we're we're hurting people who need other people. We need, we need the fellowship, and we just need to know that they remember. We need to know that they remember our child, that our child mattered. And please use our child's name. Please ask about our child. We believe me, it doesn't scare us, it doesn't put us off, it doesn't upset us. We love to hear other people use our child's name and talk about our childhood. Yeah, I know you would agree with that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, share memory is just really, you know, and sometimes that's the you know, the Lord's mercies are new every day. And sometimes it's you get an email from someone who says, Hey, you know, I went by the cemetery. Or someone says, I don't know, I was thinking about Stephanie or I was thinking about Katie today. And just those are treasures, aren't they? Yeah, they are. And every once in a while, someone will share a picture and it's like, I don't have that. Will you give me a copy of that? Because you want to hold on to everything you possibly can.

Speaker:

Yes, you that is so true. That is so true.

Speaker 1:

I'll take any pictures. Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah. And you can say that 12 years later. We we say that 10 years later. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, because we don't have all the photos maybe that you have. We don't have the the emails or the texts or whatever it might be that you have. So yeah, please share. Yeah, that that uh that can brighten up a day like you would not believe.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Well, Janet Box, I just so appreciate you coming on our podcast today and sharing your story and just opening up your heart and giving our listeners a glimpse and into your grief journey, but also into your healing journey. And for those of you who are listening, I hope that you can hear the joy that I see on Janet's face as we're sitting here talking. Uh, I hope that you can hear the hope that she has in her relationship with Jesus. And in the hope, the certain hope, I will say, that she is going to see those precious children again one day in heaven. So thank you so very much for being our guest today, Janet.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for inviting me along. I I will say that the one of the things that is was most helpful to me or has been, and it's been a journey, it's like I'm learning things still today, is really learning about the character of God. Because, you know, we look at our circumstances and we think they reflect how he feels about us. And one thing I really learned and I am so grateful for is his moral purity. And when I say that, it means to me that everything he allows in my life, every decision he makes for me, is filtered through not whether he'll receive glory, but whether it'll be beneficial to me. And how can child loss be beneficial to anyone? And what I have found is that I have learned more about the Lord and his purposes, and have found more contentment through suffering, you know, through that awful season than any other area of my life. And a lot of it is because sometimes what he's allowed, those painful things, are because they mature me spiritually, and that's his highest priority. So my daughter's health, her failing health, that's not its highest priority. Her heart is his highest priority, and and it takes a while to really like appreciate that the way he does.

Speaker 2:

It does.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but when you look through the lens of eternity and our hope for eternity, you develop a more eternal perspective. And I think that's where contentment grows from. And I have no, everything is not necessarily the way I'd like it to be, but I have found contentment in the life that I have, and I'm very, very grateful for that.

Speaker:

I love that you shared that because it's important for people to understand that you can have joy and hope coexisting with grief. And you can find contentment and purpose and meaning in life again. Doesn't seem like it may be where you are today, but just hang on. It will get better, and it's not a product of time. It's a product of having to of embracing the grief and walking through it. And I would say, and I think Janet would agree, the most important aspect of that is partnering with the Lord in that.

unknown:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And and letting him walk you through it so that you don't go through it. He never intended for us to go through it by ourselves.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And learn, learn to lament because we're really not taught what lament, what true biblical lament looks like, but it will make a huge difference in your life if you can, you know, share all those complaints with him. You don't have to be afraid to say how you really feel he knows it in the first place. So you're not telling him anything he doesn't know.

Speaker:

Um, very true.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but also just expressing trust in who he is so that he can bring you past that level of pain and into a place of peace.

Speaker:

Yes, absolutely. Janet, thank you again. And for for our listeners today, thank you for listening. Thank you for for taking time out of your schedules to to come and listen to to Janet today. We both pray that that the Lord will give you some hope and encouragement through what you've heard today. And if if it does and you would like, we would invite you to click on the link for Apple Podcasts, and you can go and leave a review or comments on today's episode or about the the podcast in general. There's also a link where you can just simply share your thoughts about today's episode. So we would invite you to do either or both. We value and love the input of of our listeners. Hope you all have a really good week and we'll look forward to having you all back in a couple of weeks. Thank you. Thank you, Janet.

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