Interview: Melina Palmer, author of What your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You

In this interview, we catch up with Melina Palmer who has released a new book: The Truth About Pricing. She discusses how brands like Hermes and Costco have applied principles from behavioral science. We cover ideas like scarcity, reciprocity and the importance of in groups.

Transcript

MAF: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Behavioral Science for Brands, a podcast where we bridge the gap between academics and marketing. Every other week, we sit down and go deep behind some of America's most successful brands in the field of behavioral science that powers them. I'm MichaelAaron Flicker. 

RS: And I'm Richard Shotton.

MAF: Today, we're visiting with Melina Palmer, the host of the podcast, The Brainy Business, and who teaches at Texas A& M. Let's get into it. So, Melina, welcome, welcome, welcome. We're excited to have you today. Um, can you share with everybody where you're calling in from? 

MP: Yeah, I, while I do teach, uh, like you said, virtually for Texas A& M University, I live in Washington State.

MAF: Outside the beautiful city of Seattle. 

MP: Yes, where, if you want to get real technical about it, I live in Tumwater, Washington. It's just near the capital. 

MAF: We're connecting coasts here. We have Melina calling in from the [00:01:00] West Coast of the United States. I'm here in New York City on the East Coast and Richard, you're calling.

I'm in London. 

RS: So I'm far, far away across the Atlantic. 

MAF: But because of the technology, we're all so close. So Melina, I thought for everybody, I might give a little introduction about you to the listeners and then, um, and then maybe we could just get into a conversation and see where it takes us. Perfect.

So, as we open, Melina has an amazing podcast called The Brainy Business, which has over a million downloads from 170 countries. Melina, as an Applied Behavioral Economist, has a passion for helping all those who Want to understand behavioral economics and how it can be applied to the world's communications and specifically how it can help businesses.

She's said to be happiest on stage working with corporate teams, enlightening them about the brain and how easy [00:02:00] it can be to apply behavioral science to have an amazing impact on projects and initiatives. Uh, Melina. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Our listeners love stories. Maybe you could tell us, how did you get introduced to behavioral economics?

What's your connection to behavioral science more generally? How did you get on this road? 

MP: Yeah, well, thank you for that. I feel like I can start with a nod to the happiest on stage. I know my husband read that on my website and was like, really? That's That's the, but, um, I did, uh, originally I was going to go to school for musical theater and like, that was the thing.

So really love being on a stage and then at some point decided to go the practical route and I got my undergrad in business administration with a focus in marketing. There was one. Section of one book in one class, just this little glimmer that was talking about buying [00:03:00] psychology, why people do the things they do and buy the things they buy.

And I thought it was just the most fascinating thing that I had ever seen or heard about. And I had said at that moment, you know, I'm. I'm going to go get a master's in this. I'm going to go back to school. I'm going to do this. And I had never really thought about higher education at that point. Um, and I spent the better part of 10 years calling universities that said, that's not a thing there.

We don't have a program for that. That doesn't exist. And so I was working in industry, um, running a marketing department, doing work with brands, which I really loved. Uh, and. Through a rigmarole, uh, got introduced to the field of behavioral economics as part of what I call an innovation fellowship, I guess, in the space I was in.

And some people from the Center for Advanced Hindsight were talking about their research, and I realized it was what I had been looking for. So I found myself a master's in behavioral economics. And at that point, I knew I was early, right, because I had been looking for a long time [00:04:00] for the program, uh, but I didn't realize how early, especially on the applied side, because just nobody was talking about.

This means for companies, how you apply it, how you use it. And that sort of turned into a, a, why not me? Why not now sort of moment, which launched the brainy business podcast in July of 2018. And it was really the first show of its kind and. I lucked out in hitting the timing right as you know, that Dan was about to break on interest in behavioral economics and behavioral science and psychology and marketing, which kind of exploded from there.

MAF: Uh, it's an amazing journey because in some ways you are seeing it. As it's still in the infancy, and now you're we're in another moment where it's got a lot of attention and a lot of, uh, a lot of intrigue, not just in [00:05:00] brand marketing and in the academics, but in everyday common parlance, when you're saying, well, how can I make better habits?

How can I live a healthier life? So it's really a very interesting time. How do you reflect on the difference? Is it, uh, do you see. People's interest differently now, you know, between 2018 and 2024, or how do you see the difference in the way that people are talking about in the way it's being used? 

MP: It's funny when I first started studying behavioral economics, you know, I set up some Google alerts, you know, so I get the emails and.

At the beginning, you know, once every couple of weeks I would get a ping. It's like, someone said something about behavioral economics or behavioral economists. And now it's like five a day, right? I mean, and they just churn through and that's, you know, just over a few years in the difference on that side.

I find when people are reaching out, um, asking for me to do a keynote [00:06:00] or to do a training for their teams, it's, Hey, you know, there was this phase of, we started, there's this thing. Behavioral economics. Do you do that? It looks like you do that. Right. And then now potentially because of having the books and things, you know, people say, we read this, we love this.

We want you to come talk to our team and help train us on these things. Like we see the light and we want to be there. Uh, there's still a lot of space to go, but brands are really, really interested in human behavior now, which I think is. How it should be, right? We, we lost some humanness for a while and we're coming back around in a way that is, I think, just really interesting and powerful for buyers and for the people within companies to know that we can communicate better when we understand people.

RS: And that growth in interest, Melina, is it particular? Types of brands, you know, big versus small or particular [00:07:00] categories, or are you seeing the interest in America widely dispersed? 

MP: Hmm. I think widely dispersed and the, what I find is. Incredibly biased because it's typically people that have been listening to the podcast and found it and love it.

So, um, whether they're entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, or people at corporate companies that have reached out large global brands from around the world that reach out to me, um, I think it's people that just have an interest in people and psychology and similar journeys to, I know what I've had, uh, I'm guessing maybe some of, for you, Richard, but like where it's people that were like, I, I was interested in psychology and I liked this and people said they didn't go together.

So I just picked one and read some other things on the side because I was told I couldn't get a degree that way. Right. Like that sort of story. Just [00:08:00]across the board. So I think people who have an interest in people have found paths in all sorts of spaces and industries. Um, and I have people, you know, that work with, you know, car repair and people who sell online and people that do services and people at Apple and Google and P and G and.

Makers Mark and Walmart and all the things right that so it's a huge array and I think that's really great. 

RS: And are there now that there's this growing interest in behavioral science, are there any examples that you think stand out of people practically using behavioral science? And are there any brands that you think?

Have applied these principles brilliantly. 

MP: Yes. And I talk about a lot of them a lot and not necessarily ones that I have worked with or that I can say specifically new, like this is a behavioral concept. So we're going to apply it with [00:09:00] that in mind. 

RS: Yes. 

MP: I have, uh, a couple that I did a lot of research for, for my newest book, um, looking at some of these experiences and when it comes to pricing and how to sell.

And one that. I was really excited to be able to include this time around as Hermes, uh, and specifically talking about the Birkin because the Birkin bag is one of those things that is unbelievably expensive and it's just a bag, right? Sorry for any of the Birkin lovers, right? It's just a bag. It's going to cause a 

MAF: lot 

MP: of functionality wise.

RS: When you say very expensive, cause I am not a man that knows much about high fashion, how much are we talking here? We. 

MP: Uh, between tens and hun tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars for a purse. 

Auto: Yeah. 

MP: Uh, so the most expensive Birkin bag has sold for [00:10:00] half a million. Um, and, 

RS: and 

MP: what they, the Birkin and Hermes, they use really interesting and extreme scarcity.

And what I really love is when we look at companies and feeling like we're trying to have people be loyal to us, you're trying to draw people in and you feel like you have to give free gifts to people, right? So it's like the people that. Spend the most could get this as a freebie or something like that, right?

Might be where you get this exclusive thing that we're giving away. And that is not how Hermes has set this up. The Birkin is something that you it's so popular. They have a limited amount. They never disclose how many they're going to make. They have a specific. Color that they're going to come out with in a year, uh, and they have different sizes and things, and you get your name on a list.

It used to be that there was a waiting list to be notified [00:11:00] that you now have the right to purchase a bag that's, you know, around that 10 grand to start sort of pricing with them. Right. And so if it's not the size you want or the color you want, you like learn to love it and reassess your wardrobe around your Birkin, right?

Uh, and then it's become this. So, you know, Victoria Beckham is said to have 2 million worth of Birkin bags. The Kardashians have tons of them, all of this. Uh, they don't actually have big logos on them or anything like that. They're very understated in that way. And there's a big resale market for them.

But again, they only come up rarely and same. If the one where they say, if the one you've been looking for is available, you just jump on it. And they've said that a Birkin bag actually is a better investment than gold because their value goes up so much and people take good care of them. Now, when, if you want.

Wanted a Birkin, you have to [00:12:00] spend enough money with Hermes and have a good enough relationship with an associate for them to put you on a list to be eligible to buy one again. So you have to spend money on other stuff and be loyal and spend tons of money for them. And someone has to like you enough, right?

So you can't be a real jerk to the sales associate. You're showing you're a good human person to have the right. To spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on a bag. It's a cool model. 

MAF: It's an amazing model. What do you think's going on there on the buyer side? Like what's, what's causing that intensity?

You talked a little bit about scarcity. Is that the whole story? Like what, what do you think's going on here that's really driving that level of, of excitement? 

MP: Yeah, so scarcity is, of course, a big piece of it, but there's the social proof, uh, being a herding species wanting to be seen [00:13:00] with the bag.

There's that FOMO and loss aversion that's coming into this. You see people with the bag, right? So, people will. Um, celebrities are posting and showing off their collections. And so people want to be part of that, right? That's that loss aversion FOMO, uh, the social proof aspect, there are articles and things, people talking about how they got their Birkin.

If you want to try to do it too, sort of deal. Um, and it's also a bit of a, like. In the know in the club that ties in on that hurting piece too, because like I said, it's not like, uh, and nothing against any of the other brands that have big logos on things, but like Louis Vuitton is very obviously Louis Vuitton.

Right. And so, because this isn't, doesn't say like Birkin huge across the bag. Um, if you didn't know what it was, you might not know what it was, but when you know, You know, [00:14:00] right. So it helps you to feel really special. 

MAF: Richard, is there, is there studies behind, like, if you know, if you have knowledge of that insight and you're in, you kind of like self select in a group.

Are there, you may not know any studies off the top of your head, but that kind of talk to that, the power of trying to be a part of a group and create an identity through the group. Melina too, of course. But does anybody know of any, any studies? It's just so interesting to think about that. I mean, 

RS: on the broad area of scarcity, there's a huge amount of, of studies.

Uh, what's I think interesting is, you know, sometimes people criticize behavioral science because they're like, there's these hundreds of studies. How, how do I know which one to, to start with? Which one am I going to have a look at? Now, of course, an awful lot of the right. bias and insight to use depends on the specifics of the problem.

I do think it's interesting that when you have occasional comparative studies that try and rank the relative impact of [00:15:00] biases, scarcity often comes out towards the top. So there's a lovely study, albeit a very, very different category. So it's mainly, I think it's travel e commerce experiments. Swarbrick Jones and Brown looks about 2600.

eCommerce campaigns, 29 different types of ways to drive behavior. And they found that the most successful was scarcity in terms of volume. Like there aren't many of these things. Then I think it was social proof and then it was scarcity of time. You know, you haven't got long to take advantage of this offer.

So scarcity, absolutely. That core point. I think you were saying Melina. It's shown to work very powerfully compared to other biases. And then in terms of, um, that point about in and out groups, there are certainly studies saying that how far we are prepared to go to help others depends on whether we see them as in our tribe or not.

There's a [00:16:00] famous British study about soccer where Levine at Lancaster, maybe 2005, 2006, um, recruits group of football fans. They're all Man United fans. And they are told the experiment is going to be held in a room 100 yards away or 200 yards away. As they set off to the experiment venue, a confederate of the researcher runs past and falls over.

And the question is, do they help or not? And what's interesting is that if the person who falls is wearing the same club t shirt as the participant, I think it's 12 people help. If they are either wearing a unbranded t shirt or a t shirt of the rivals, the proportion of help, I think, drops to about a third.

So you're absolutely right that I think as a species, probably for evolutionary reasons, we are deeply attuned to thinking, who's in our tribe? Let's help them. And that [00:17:00] is a much bigger driver of behavior than we might want to admit. Yeah. So, I think, I think there is evidence there. 

MP: Definitely. And so, two books that I always, are kind of go to's for me on this that I recommend all the time.

One is called The Power of Us by J. Van Bavel and Dominic Packer. Great, great book. Talked with Dominic about it on the show. Love it. Uh, and he talks about, when you were saying, um, Something to have to do with football or, you know, soccer clubs. I was thinking you're going to talk about the, uh, the town of bent necks that they talk about in that book, which is, um, and so I feel I'm gonna not do it super great justice, but, uh, where there's the town that had the brothers that both, uh, they ended up having a falling out and they were shoemakers.

And so one. Went and created Adidas, the other Puma, and then it was, and they were [00:18:00] really like literally on other sides of a river, I think, um, and when you would walk through to determine like, who was your friend and who is your foe? And it was very like Romeo and Juliet, like you can't marry someone from the, uh, from.

You know, team Puma or whatever, um, real life scenario of this for a long time that you would look down to see what shoes they were wearing to know if they're part of us or not. Uh, so that is one of many fascinating examples in the power of us. The other book, which just came out, um, in 2023 is called for the culture by Marcus Collins.

He is a researcher at a university of Michigan. And he is, um, also does work, um, for Wyden Kennedy. Um, and so he's done work with the Brooklyn Nets. He did work with Beyonce. He's done really, really cool things, Budweiser in looking at how. We, [00:19:00] um, can take that kind of tribal cultural reference about who we are and how brands can embrace that in a way that makes for really interesting messaging and campaigns that people rally behind.

Like in the case of the Brooklyn Nets, they. Had, you know, signage and things that was on the way in or out of the city of being all about Brooklyn and like, we're, we're us before the team even arrived, people had, and they had made the announcement, people had gear and stuff. We're like, so excited when the team was moving and coming into Brooklyn.

So potentially MichaelAaron, you remember some of that. 

MAF: I, yeah, I just was going to connect with that because you did feel, uh, as a native born New Jersey and. And that's left my home state and moved to Brooklyn. Oh, sorry. Yes, it was a very sensitive subject, Melina. But it's true that they made Brooklyn their home before they arrived.

And that sense of being a part of the tribe and even [00:20:00] leading the tribe. Was, uh, was, was part of their success. Uh, and before I forget to mention it, Melina, if you'll share, uh, the episode of the podcast that you had, uh, with the first author, we'll put it in the show notes and then everybody can jump over and listen.

That would be really, that'd be really great. Oh, for 

MP: sure. And, and Marcus was on the show too. So I'll share his episode when we talked about for the culture. Yeah. 

MAF: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Cool. So we've had 

RS: Hermes and the, the power of Skerst in other biases. Any other brands that you think of now the application of behavioral science?

Who do you think we should look up to? 

MP: For sure. One that I talk about a lot, and I've actually done a full episode on that goes to the other side of the spectrum is Costco. Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay. So, and so you, you were nodding Richard, like you, you knew what I was going to say, or you were just excited that I was going to the other side of the spectrum?

No, no, no, 

RS: I'm more excited to move away from the world of high fashion where I feel I 

MAF: can bring it out there. That's a personal bias he 

RS: has, [00:21:00] Malia. Yeah. But my care and I have. Um, looked at Costco as well. So I think that's a fascinating area. Um, so we've done a podcast on that, but we've never, we haven't put it out yet.

So it'd be really interesting to see what biases you've. I 

MP: think it's such a great example of, so in, in the truth about pricing and in my work, I talk about brands having to decide whether they are ones of quality or ones of value, and you should not be both, you have to pick one side or the other and that gray area in between where people think They can like, we're, we're high quality, but we're also going to round our prices down, you know, or we're going to do big sales at the end of the year or things is where you get into this weird cognitive load problem that makes it difficult for people to buy from you.

They don't really understand what you're about. Costco is a great example of the other side, right? So our quality brand like Hermes, right? They know. That they're high price and they're meant to be [00:22:00] Costco has really embraced being a value brand and being about giving the most back to their members as they can.

And they have a few things that they do well, actually scarcity, but in a different way. So if you go shop it's at Costco for anyone who's a member, you know, that if you see something you like, you buy it. Right? Because it might not be there by the time you do a loop around the store, even, or if you come back in an hour.

And so if you like the thing, you should get it now, because they also have a really great return policy. So if it doesn't fit or the kids don't like it or whatever it is, you can always bring it back, but it might not be there next time. So that drives a lot of behavior. Costco also does a really good job with reciprocity.

I have heard That they're potentially not going to be doing samples anymore. I know they kind of tried to bring them back after the pandemic, and I think they're doing less of that, but we all know Costco was built [00:23:00] on free samples. That little taste, that little bit of something that also triggers some endowment effect and loss aversion, perceived ownership.

We get the little gift. We it's right here. If I want to go buy it, it's this easy experience that you get that you feel like you're getting a gift because you're a member, you're special, right? You get a little thing here at Costco. They also have a couple of really. Interesting selections that they have made where they have items that are at such a deep discount and such a great value and things where they've said they will never ever raise the price, which is their dollar 50 hot dog combo that you get at the little shop, right?

And it's high quality, good hot dog, not. Weird, gross hot dog. And then they also have their 4. 99 rotisserie chickens and people buy a lot of them. And someone may [00:24:00] ask, you know, you think, well, you may be, so you only make what a penny on them, but they still sell so many. Oh, contraire Costco has re is reported to lose between 30 and 40 million a year on the chickens alone.

That's a lot. Right. And we'd say, why would you possibly do this? And they've actually, uh, set up their own farms to reduce costs and everything, and they still lose a lot of money, but don't worry, right? Costco makes plenty of money to worry about that. 

RS: I will, but 

MP: these things are, they have some key points where they show that they care about their members and taking care of them and giving them these moments of value in a way that resonates.

And so you don't even look. To comparison shop or whatnot. If you see something at Costco, you're going to buy it because you believe overall, right, it's a good deal. They're taking care of you. They're really smart as well because of having things under Kirkland brand, [00:25:00] uh, which is, you know, their own brand.

They're based out of Kirkland, Washington here by me. Um, and having. Different sizes than you can get anywhere else. It's difficult to comparison shop, even if you wanted to, because you're buying in bulk there. So you just sort of trust it's a good deal because of a few well chosen items like that.

They're also priming you on this value piece by not investing in. Flashy signage and beautiful shops and things. It's a warehouse and it feels like one when you're in there and there are pallets and things going around. Their website is very simple, all emulating this value brand image. And you know, Anything extra is going back to members, getting them deals.

They're not investing in stuff that doesn't matter, which is a really smart approach for Costco. 

RS: I mean, that's, that's fascinating. And, um, the bit, I mean, well, I think it was all fact that the mobile bias is fascinating, but the bit I really liked was that talk about the 499 [00:26:00] chicken. Now I can logically see that if someone goes into Costco and there's a thousand prices or 10, 000 or 20, 000 prices, it is.

Computationally impossible to know what is a fair and decent. Price for each of those items. So is the argument that well, you what you need to do is have a handful, 234 even maybe one hero product that is indisputably, undoubtedly amazing value because you can't get 499 or anything like it. And that is very easy for people to recognize as value.

What that isn't very easy for them to recognize is, you know, the total basket cost. So do you think this is a, an argument about people's restrictions on their memory, mental capabilities? So the prioritization of a single price over Overall good discount and if so that that feels highly believable. But [00:27:00] have you ever seen a study that proves the value of that that kind of hero approach?

Because I think I do think it's a interesting one. Others might want to emulate. 

MP: Yeah, I, I don't have a specific study that comes to mind that, um, immediately that perfectly makes that point. And, you know, definitely when we think about loss leaders and things that get you in the door, the free gift type of, uh, that reciprocity generosity, people like that sort of, um, there, there's a lot of research into that, uh, to speak to the question of if, if just like one.

Hero is enough. I would say in general, probably not. And the reason would be it not across the board. Like you say, context is really important. Right. And we want to be thoughtful about our own brand and the experience and what's happening there. But if Costco had just one thing there, there's a lot, right?

The chicken is at the end, you [00:28:00] have to go all the way to the back of the store, typically, like not every store is exactly the same to get the chicken. And, you know, there are other good deals. Like, so if they just had one really good deal and you know exactly where it is and it's dinner tonight and I can get in and out easily and grab it by the door, you're not having a full experience and getting the lift that you would need to justify the amount of money you're losing on chicken.

Right. And so Costco has good deals sprinkled throughout. What's interesting about that. Is there are people now that have full social media channels that are devoted to like finding deals at Costco every week or whatever, that they make new videos about like, Hey, I'm at Costco this week and look such and such as such a great deal.

When I was doing my episode on Costco several years ago, the, I was talking to a friend about it. And she said, well, all I know is it just takes five pies to make up the cost of your membership, which is a weird thing to say, right? [00:29:00]That's a weird thing to know or to say. Um, and so I, you know, said, tell me more about this.

What are you talking about? And it was because someone had made a video on Tik TOK that was talking about the money you say, and like someone doing the calculation to say, if you buy a pie like this somewhere else, it would cost this much. Or if you're going to buy the ingredients, it costs you this much.

So like at the holidays, if you're buying a bunch of pie, if you get five of them over the year, the amount of money you save is the cost of your membership at Costco. So like everything else is just gravy because of this money you get back in pie. You're investing in pie futures, I guess, when you become a member at Costco.

And so. Those little things, like not everyone wants rotisserie chicken. I can't eat the hot dog combos because I have celiac disease. Right? So that means nothing to me. I actually can't have the pies either, but there are other points where we know it's a really good value. Like. Diapers for my, uh, two year old, right?

Like that was the thing that we wanted to be shopping at Costco. [00:30:00]They have lots of those little glimmers, even though not everything.

It's 

MAF: interesting also, Melina, as you talked about where they place, uh, the good deals in the store, you do, at least in the American zeitgeist, you make a trip to Costco. This is not a place you stop by on the way to do something else. You go with the intentionality to fill a basket of goods. And so in that, in that they've taught people.

To get to the back of the store to navigate around to the deals. Um, a, a planned benefit is that you're going to go and spend a meaningful amount of money to get, as you said, a meaningful amount of value. You're either about premium this, or you're about value. So they've constructed the experience to make sure you get the most value out of it.

Just a observation as you were sharing that, um, very cool. 

MP: I know when I was a kid, it was like the weekly or, you [00:31:00] know, once, twice a month, Costco trip, you know, and that we get to go and you get to go have all the samples and like, maybe you could, can we could convince our mom to let us go get either like the berry smoothie or an ice cream cone.

Like you get to go get one at the beginning of the trip as you're like feeling super awesome, like having that smoothie as you walk around Costco. Uh, you know, gorging on whatever random samples they have that day. So, and then looking at all the toys and going to check out clothes, like all the things you're going to beg mom to buy for you that day.

Um, yeah, I mean, it's a really great and smart model for sure. 

RS: I think, I think the samples is a lovely, um, behavioral point to be referencing and the power of reciprocity. Normally, I think about the best evidence for. biases you refer to a study and I think there is a nice one from Falk at University of Bonn who shows charities, if they give a small gift away with their direct mail [00:32:00] pack, I think in his experiment it was postcards, they increase the donation significantly.

So there's a lot of nice studies about reciprocity. But my favorite kind of proof point, um, Childenian influence. And he talks about how our language gives away. Uh, the power of reciprocity, this idea that if someone does a favor, we feel this strong sense to return it. And he says, what used to be a, uh, a synonym for thank you was much obliged.

Now we're literally receiving a gift and we're saying much obliged. We are without even perhaps knowing it, telling everyone aloud that we now have this obligation that we need to return. So yeah, I think the reciprocity is a, is a lovely, um, example that maybe more brands could, could tap into. 

MP: Oh, yeah.

Reciprocity is like top of a list for me of something that's so important across. All aspects of business, you know, to me, I always [00:33:00] say, you know, business is a very long game and I think even just looking at social media, right. As an opportunity to be giving very generously and being out in the world.

Social media these days has really turned into this blast of me, me, me, me, right, like everywhere, and then you run away. And then you come back and say, has anyone liked me yet? No. All right. I'll come back later. Right. But how often are you liking other people's posts? Occasionally. How often do you comment on other people's posts more than just like cool post, Richard, right.

But actually saying something helpful and useful there. People remember the people who comment, how often do you then go and share and say, Hey. My friend, MichaelAaron is doing this really cool thing. You should check it out. He's awesome. People really remember those people. And so then when you come back around and say, Hey, I've got this thing going on.

What do you all think about it? People are more likely to [00:34:00] engage. They're going to follow up. If you're asking for help, people want to help you recommend other people. Chime in or whatever that is. If you give first and know that the universe will give back in some way, eventually that's like reciprocity being, there's a reason that I end every episode of the brainy business would be thoughtful for us.

MAF: There is a, um, behavioral science underpinning to a good way to live. It's a good, it's a good, it's a, it's a good outlook on life. Uh, before I ask our final question, Melina, I have to ask. We're from America. Richard's from the UK. Have you ever heard someone say much obliged? Is this in your lexicon? That's, that was, we're always fascinated.

You're 

RS: very polite to pretend that he was a bit, Oh, sorry, that may be a British thing, saying much obliged. Was that, was it, you know, you're completely, um, switched in, switched alternative with just saying And I thought it must be an American thing as well, because [00:35:00] Yeah, that, because of the mention in Cialdini, maybe it's an old fashioned.

MP: Old fashioned, I would say is I feel like if I've ever heard someone say it, it was in a movie or watching Downton Abbey perhaps, right? Something along those lines. Yeah. So we're, we're historic in that reference. 

MAF: Yeah. So yes, I always, I'm always amazed by how we speak the same language and yet some stuff is so different.

Well, first of all, thanks for sharing Melina. It's really been very, uh, very interesting and enlightening to hear you talk about all these. Different, um, you know, all these different things, let all of our listeners are always interested in the thought leaders that come on the program. Favorite thing you're watching, favorite thing you're reading.

This does not have to be related to behavioral science, behavioral economics. What's the thing that's got you thinking? What's the thing that's engaging you right now? Is there a book or a TV program or something? 

MP: Hmm. I have [00:36:00] two kind of random ish shows that I've been watching, and I think everything always comes back to behavior, right?

But, uh, so one is For All Mankind that is on Apple TV and it's the kind of alternative history of what would have happened if the U. S. wasn't actually the first to land on the moon. And how the space race like chain would have changed the world essentially in this space. And it's, it's really interesting.

And I like this kind of alternate history, uh, aspect of things and watching kind of the human behavior in that the other, I really like the gilded age, which is on max. Um, and that is looking at kind of this old town, New York as new money's coming in and railroad. Uh, tycoons. And as they're trying to battle over stuff, um, and status and prestige and, and whatnot, I think that's a really interesting show to watch as well.[00:37:00]

MAF: Thank you so much for those recommendations and we'll see in the comments, people, uh, share their favorite and, um, and let's hear what they have to think until next time. Melina, so much for being with us and for sharing your perspective. And to all our listeners, uh, feel free to leave a comment, ask for new topics to be covered.

Uh, and until next time I'm MichaelAaron Flicker 

RS: and I'm Richard Shotton. 

MAF: Bye. Thanks.