Interview: Nancy Harhut, author of Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, on the behavioral triggers that boost engagement

This week, behavioral marketer Nancy Harhut joins the podcast to explore how science-backed tactics like social proof, cognitive fluency, and personalization can lift engagement and boost conversions. Hear how she helped brands like Nationwide drive millions in revenue by applying behavioral design.

Transcript

beyond covering the cost of the second mint. Right. You know, you could, if
you didn't want the second mint, you could have just left it there and tipped the
way you were going to or if you really felt like, oh, they gimme two minutes, I
gotta cover the cost that you give 'em a little bit more.
But it, it went up considerably more than it would've been to, to cover that. And
you, you're absolutely right. It was this idea of, you know, I, I matter to them,
they're taking care of me. We we [00:28:00] frequently go to a, a restaurant here
on Cape Cod, where I am for the summer, called the Lobster Pop. And, they,
you know, because we come in often they recognize us. And very often almost
every time I would have to say that we come in, there are flowers that are put on
our table. And you would say, well, okay, that's nice. It's a restaurant. But not
every table has flowers. But when they see us come in, they run over and they
make sure that we have a little VAs of flowers on our table.
And it's just their way of acknowledging you know, your regular customers
were. Happy to see you again. It doesn't cost them anything. They have a certain
number of flower arrangements throughout the, the restaurant, right. That, that
are gonna be there for, for ambiance, but they make sure that one of them ends
up at the table we're at just because, you know, they know who we are.
And but that's, it's a nice little touch. Right.
Richard Shotton: That's a, that's a lovely example. I think sometimes the, the
best behavioral scientists are small businesses. You know, people who are
dealing with [00:29:00] customers day in, day out . And they're paying attention
to what actually affects your behavior. Are there any other examples within the
lobster pot where you've seen,
Nancy Harhut: oh my God, they're, you know, it's funny, they're, they're like
all over it and, and I'm not sure.
I don't, I I don't think it's like they read my book and they're doing it, and they
were doing this before the, my book came out. I'm not sure they've ever read my
book, but although maybe they have, it would be nice to say they have, but
anyway but no, they're, they're just so, so good. I mean, first of all, their, you
know, their food and their service are great, so that, that absolutely accounts for
something.
But they don't take reservations. So what happens is you, you are walking
through the center of town and there's this huge long line, this queue of people
waiting to get in. So right away you're thinking what? Social proof, right? Like,wow, the restaurant must be good if all these people are waiting and they have
these, these velvet ropes kind of, you know, stopping you from going in.
You know, it's like I don't know. Being queued up in front of you know, some
exclusive nightclub or something, you know, but they've got these velvet ropes
and they're preventing you [00:30:00] from going in. And there's people, and
there's, you know, they have signs on the front of the restaurant that says they
were voted, you know, best of in Cape Cod Life or Zagg or you know, Yelp.
Right. You know, the different views. So you've got that kind of social proof
and pardon me then when you. When you do get in and, and you look at the
menu they, they, they'll call out like, well, this is a local favorite. So now if
you're on vacation and you're coming in, you know, what are you gonna, oh, I'm
gonna try the local favorite, you know.
You know, like one of the, the bloody Mary isn't just a bloody Mary. It's Sean's
famous bloody Mary. Sean is one of the owners, you know, and so well if you're
gonna get a drink, and I actually asked, I said, so do you sell more? And they're
like, oh my God, we sell a ton of 'em. You know, and, you know, I have to think
if it simply said.
Bloody Mary gin and tonic vodka, you know, Collins, okay, whatever, you
know, but it's Sean's famous flavor. You gotta give it a try, you know, you gotta
try the local favorite, the Portuguese specialty. So they, they do a, you know, a
[00:31:00] lot of things like that. And then I guess at. At one point, very early in
his career the celebrity chef Anthony Bourdain worked there.
Right. Oh, wow. When he was just starting. Exactly. And that's what Oh, wow.
You know, now he was very young. He was like, you know, in the kitchen, you
know, probably chopping vegetables. I mean, he was very, very young in his
career way before he was famous pot. He worked there. And so, you know,
when, when they put that out and people have the same reaction, you know, that
you just had your tonight, which is like, oh wow, Anthony Bird, how about
that?
You know, gotta get myself in there. And so they do a lot of things really, really
well. And they're, you know, they're a small business. They're not nationwide,
right. They're. They're not some, you know, multinational company. They're,
you know, they're a, a small family owned restaurant that has fabulous food and
fabulous service, but they also seem to have an innate understanding of, of
customers.And you know what, you know, what motivates people? You know, they're,
they're very warm. They circulate, they, you [00:32:00] know, they greet their
guests, they make people feel welcome. But there are these little, little things,
you know, where they, they understand social proof and the authority principle
and, you know, the idea of, of scarcity and exclusivity, like, can I even get a
seat?
Look at that line, you know.
MichaelAaron flicker: You know, Nancy, as you were telling the story of the
mince, I was thinking about the only reason that the mince work is because you
realize that you are being singled out and special. And I'm thinking about that as
you're telling this story of all the amazing things that the lobster part that the
lobster pot does.
I wonder how much of it is the style that it's done in. So yes, you can follow the
bias perfectly to the T, but to me, all of these examples that you just called out
are the style in which they do it. Maybe you could speak to that. Do, do you
think it's, it's, there's, you, you said there's an art and there's a science.
It seems like the art really matters to making it stick and making it effective.
Nancy Harhut: Yeah, [00:33:00] I think so. I mean, I, you know, I think there's
one danger these days that people can read a book or go to a conference
presentation and think, oh, I understand behavioral science. Now I'm gonna go
back and, and I'm gonna use it.
And they can be a little, you know, hamfisted about it. Like not, not quite do it.
Right. And I think you're absolutely right, Michael. There's a, there's a, a proper
way to apply things and a, and a and a less so way. And I mean, the Lobster Pot
has been in, in Provincetown as a family owned restaurant for. I don't know how
many years.
Right. And they've really perfected the, the art of hospitality. So they, you
know, if, if they, if there was just a, I don't know, go back, going back to the
flowers, right? If there was just flowers on the table, I don't know if I'd even
notice it, but when they rush over and put them down and say for you. You
know, we're very happy to see you again.
We have flowers for you right now. You know, that means something to me
because they've, they've made me feel special. They didn't just put the flowers
then, you know, put 'em down and [00:34:00] hope I noticed, or, you know,plunk 'em down and say, oh, this is what we do for our regular, you know, it's
like, really? See you again.
You know, these are you flowers? I got you some special flowers. You know
sometimes our server will come by and gimme extra napkins. And I'm like,
dude, you think I'm a slob? What? She's just trying to take care of me. She's
trying to anticipate, you know, and it's, it's little things like that. And so I think
you're absolutely right.
It's, it's not just the. The tactic. It's, it's how it's applied. I mean, I, you know, I
think about social proof and you know, the classic social proof backfires. You
know, we do a lot of work in regulated, regulated industries like insurance and
one of the problems with insurance is not enough people buy it. And so you're
tempted to say, you know, many people wait until they're older before they buy
insurance. But here's why you should get it when you're younger. And that's a
social proof backfire. 'cause what people get, the, the message people get is like,
oh, a lot of people like me are waiting.
Great. I'm gonna wait too. And it's like, oh, no, no, you know, you're doing it
wrong. So so you have to understand the principle [00:35:00] and, and you have
to apply it with a certain amount of, of, of, of experience or finesse or art, what,
you know describe it as you will. But yes, it's, it's, it's more than just a, a basic
grasp of the principle.
Richard Shotton: So you've talked about nationwide. We have the wonderful
example of the, the reciprocity. Then there's lobster park with all sorts of
different biases being applied by this small business. I think we've got probably
one time for one more campaign that you, you particularly like and that you
think of beha of applied behavioral science.
Very well. Just wanna take us through, through one more.
Nancy Harhut: So yeah, I mentioned we do a lot of work in, in regulated,
regulated industries, but here's an example of a a regulated industry client that
I'm not working on. So this is just me observing this from from afar as a, you
know, perspective customer and it's ally Bank.
And I think they do some very interesting things. And lately I've been seeing
their ads for this savings account that they have, where you can, kind of sub
[00:36:00] designate where you know, where your savings are, are supposed to
go or what you're saving them for, I should say. So so it's a good use of mental
accounting because, you know, I'm saving money, but some of it is for my
mortgage and some of it is for my kids' college, and some of it is for vet bills.And, and some of it is for, you know, that next vacation I wanna take. And, you
know, when it's all just kind of in one account, it's. It's hard, right? It's hard, you
know, you kind of, you're not really, it's like, oh, the, you know, the money gets
pulled out. But if you can kind of label it, it, it plays into that that bias of, of
mental accounting where we, you know, we, we think about our rent money is
different than our vacation money, right?
We think about our vacation money is different than our vet bill money right
now. Really? A dollar is a dollar a dollar, right? A, you know, a Euro is a Euro
is a Euro. I mean, it's the same, same amount whether I'm gonna. Take that, you
know, that dollar bill and use it to put, you know, gasoline in my car or to buy
myself a, you know, a piece of candy.
Right? But, but in my head there's the [00:37:00] transportation account and
there's the Sweet Indulgence account, you know, and we don't like to, to blur
them. And the fact that they're saying they're, they've been advertising, listen,
you can get this one account and then you can have these subcategories. I think
it's brilliant because it's it's working with.
That bias that, you know, that mental accounting bias. They're not saying to
their, you know, their customers. Listen, you know, one account is fine. You
know, you're, you're, you're good with it. Just take out what you need when you
need it. You know, they're saying, no, we understand how you work. We
understand how the human brain works.
So take the one account. You don't have to have several. You don't have to have
one. But you can have these little labels, these little buckets. And, and kind of
designate the money in those, in those buckets for your use. And I, I, I think it's
really smart and I haven't seen any other financial institution do that.
And maybe, I'm not saying that there aren't any. There might be, but I've been
really noticing the ads that Ally has been running about this you know, create
your own buckets account
Richard Shotton: I, I really like that as an example. It almost seems to dovetail
with your insurance point. So the, the general argument [00:38:00] being work
with human nature, don't try and overturn it.
People have these biases. They might feel illogical, but actually overturning
them is super hard. So work with them rather against them. And I think the
example you gave earlier where the bank was telling people. And lots of people
don't get insurance. Here's why you should know that's the wrong route.That's, you know, identifying a, a bias and then trying to work against it, which
feels quite an inefficient way of communicating. So yeah, that's a, a lovely
example From, from Ally Bank. Do they do anything else that you've seen
where they, they you can have work with human nature?
Nancy Harhut: So, you know, it's funny, I was on their site recently. It's, I I
think it's very cognitively fluent, if you will. So it's very, very easy to
understand. Now we're in, you know, you're in banking, you're in financial
services that, that can sound a little stilted. It can sound a little you know, off-
put. A lot of people don't feel like they really understand money, that they really
have [00:39:00] a good handle on it.
And, you know, financial speak can be a little scary and I don't know if I'm
making the right decision. And so, you know, you know. You don't know if
you're gonna make the right decision. Often what happens is you don't make a
decision at all. You know, you just put it off. And so they've got some very easy
to understand simple language.
And I noticed on I was on their CD page and they have several different kinds
of CDs. And sorry. As a Brit, what is a, what is a cd?
Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. Deposit. It's, it's an opportunity. Buy, you know, you, you
can invest a certain amount of money and you need to, and it has a term, so you
need to wait for the eight months or the 12 months or the 24 month, and then
you get a, you know, that nice rate of return.
So the, the longer you agree to let it sit, the higher your rate of return will be.
But if you try to take it out before the term is over, there's a, there's penalty.
And so but it's a great way to encourage people to save for, for retirement or
really for, for anything. You know, it's just better than putting the money in
your savings account.
The. [00:40:00] The interest isn't gonna be as good, right, if it's just in your
savings account. But if you take out the CD, you get a higher rate of interest.
But you know, they had different kinds and so they had a they had a best for
section. So you read about, you know, the brief description of here's this
particular CD and it says, best for, and they just put it in plain English like,
alright, you know, if I'm trying to accomplish this.
This is the one I should get, you know, and it, it helps people make the decision,
you know, if they're ever com comparing and con contrasting two or three
different ones, okay, this is best for you know, short term savings. This is bestfor maybe saving for a young child's college education because they're, you
know, you've got a more, a longer time horizon or, you know, whatever it was.
But they, I just found that best four to be incredibly helpful, being very, very
cognitively fluent. I was a little disappointed though, because. I think it was a
year or two, three years ago, and I had been on their site looking at their CDs
and they had a, they had a great little banner ad that said, we asked [00:41:00]
the future you if you wanted more money, and you said yes.
And I thought that's such. Example of temporal discounting, right? Like we, or
present focused bias, whatever, you know, like we, we want what we want and
we want it now, and we don't wanna save money. So if I have a hundred dollars
in my hands, I'd rather go out to dinner in a movie than I, than I, you know, than
I would prefer to put it into a certificate of deposit or any kind of bank account,
right?
I want that. And, but they said, Hey, look, we asked to future you if you wanted
more money. And you said yes, and you read that and you think to yourself,
well. That makes perfect sense because if asked the present me if I wanted more
money, I would say yes. So it makes sense that the future me would also want
more money.
Hmm. Maybe I should think about. Getting one of these certificates of deposit
and, and, you know, stashing some money aside for the future. And I, I loved it.
I was disappointed to find that they had taken it down, but you know how it is,
you refresh your website, you know, and
MichaelAaron flicker: ...things get moved.
Nancy Harhut: Yeah, yeah. But but I, but I was also delighted to find that they
had the, you know, best four edition, which was, again, very cognitively
[00:42:00] fluent and, and I think very helpful for for their customers and their
potential customers.
MichaelAaron flicker: Nancy, I've heard you speak of cognitive fluency before
and sometimes you have raised an Oppenheimer study that looked at, tell me if
I'm gonna get this right. It looked at abstracts of scientific journal articles and he
would replace just the longest words with shorter words and when, when he put
it in a study, those with the shorter words.
Were seen to be smarter as authors. Is, is that right? Is that what the study
reveals?Nancy Harhut: Yes, it was, it was abstracts of PhD. I know thesis papers or
something. So I, I don't know if it was scientific journals or if it was their, their
dissertation, but they grabbed, you know, the abstracts and they replaced every
word of nine letters or longer with a shorter synonym.
And then they, you know, they asked people to, you know, they ran the test, you
know, you'd read the original or you'd read [00:43:00] the, the revised, the with
the shorter words. And you know, people found the ones with the shorter one
words, easier to understand. Okay. Probably not a big surprise, but as you say,
they rated the author as more intelligent and a lot of times in, in marketing,
particularly in B2B marketing.
But a lot of times in marketing we think we need to use the big words, the
jargon, the run on sentences, the thick paragraphs, the acronyms, because. That
proves how smart we are. And, and that's in a way respecting how smart our
audience is, you know? And, and they must expect it. And I, you know, I'm, I'm
dealing with college educated professionals and so therefore I need to use this.
And, you know, here, you know, you're talking about PhD you know,
dissertations and still, you know, these are very, very smart people. They still.
Preferred the simpler, easier to understand language, and they thought that the
authors were smarter. So, you know, we're in, in many cases, in, in marketing,
we're like killing ourselves to obfuscate the message.
Right. Okay. And [00:44:00] simpler. Which would would, would serve
everybody better, right? Just make it plain and simple. People prefer things that
are easier to think about and easier to understand. They, they judge them to be
more truthful, more accurate, and they feel more confident in their ability to
make a decision about them.
And at the end of the day, in marketing, that's what we want, right? We want
people to make decisions, and if people don't feel confident, they're not gonna
make them.
Richard Shotton: If we're gonna talk about that paper, i think the best thing
about it was the title. So often academic papers are a little bit dry but the title for
that one was Consequences of Erudite vernacular, utilized irrespective of
Necessity. And then there was a conlon problem with using long words
needlessly.
And I think of all the academic papers I've ever read, that's the only one that's
ever made me laugh reading it.So brilliant in two respects, a very. Simple and powerful insight, and then a
little bit of humor to, to light up. Yeah.
Nancy Harhut: Well, and, and they prove the point. Their, their [00:45:00]
title, you know.
MichaelAaron flicker: That's right. Nancy, this has been a lovely, lovely chat.
As we come to a close, we wanted to ask you one final question, and maybe
we've hit it in our conversation or maybe not yet.
If you had to choose just one your favorite. All time. Favorite application of
behavioral science, what would it be? What do you think is the one that you
love most of all? Of all the examples either that we've talked about or we didn't
get to raise today.
Richard Shotton: So I think maybe what he was going to say, and I putting
words in his mouth here, is if there was one like book or podcast that you would
recommend that people can find more about payable science, what, what's the
thing that, that you, you, you would you would suggest.
Nancy Harhut: Well, I mean, I have to say I'm a huge fan of this podcast. I
listen to it when I go out for my exercise walks. Now I'm, I'm serious. And I did
read that there is a forthcoming book, you're third, I believe, [00:46:00] but it'll
be the first. That's a co-collaboration with you and Michael. So I, you know,
that is. The top of my list as soon as it comes out in terms of, you know, the
next piece of reference material I wanna check out to stay on top of the
business.
So those are my two recommendations right there.
Richard Shotton: Oh, Nancy. Well, I, I, I, and I haven't even bribed you with a,
a New York cartoon to get that recommendation. That's, so, that's very kind of
you. And then what, what about if people wanna find out more about you? Are
you, have you got a, a newsletter or.
Do you post a lot on LinkedIn or, or Twitter? Where, where could they find out
more? Are you speaking soon at any conferences?
Nancy Harhut: Yeah, so I, I do post a lot on LinkedIn and on Twitter and
occasionally Facebook or Threads or Blue Sky. But, but you can really find me
on on LinkedIn a lot. And my agency website, HBT Marketing, it's hbt
mktg.com.We have a lot of you know. For lack of a better term thought leadership. There
were a lot of interviews up and you know [00:47:00] papers and, and so you can
find information there. But would love to hear from any of your listeners. They
can contact me on social, they can email me. But if anyone was interested in
continuing this conversation, I would love to hear from people and of course,
my book, using Behavioral Science and Marketing, drive Customer Action and
Loyalty by prompting instinctive Responses.
Thank you very much for showing it. That's available at, the Kogan page
website, UK publisher also on Amazon also really any place find books are
sold. So I encourage your listeners to pick up a copy of that if, if they're
interested in learning a little bit more.
Richard Shotton: Likewise, I think there's an awful lot of generalist books
written about behavioral science in a, you know, huge number that people can
pick up.
But there aren't that many books that specifically look at taking finance,
behavioral science, and then saying what you can do as a marketer. So yeah,
using behavioral science and marketing I think is a great investment for any
market out there.
Nancy Harhut: Thank you.
Richard Shotton: Absolutely. Amazing chatting to you. Thank you so much
for coming on, and until next time, thank you very much.
Nancy Harhut: Oh, thank [00:48:00] you very much. The pleasure's been mine.
Appreciate it.
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