Interview: Orlando Wood, author of Lemon and Look Out, on why showmanship beats salesmanship

In this episode, Orlando Wood shares why today’s ads often fail to capture attention—and what brands can do about it. From the power of characters and music to the science of right-brain appeal, he reveals how to make advertising more effective, memorable, and emotionally engaging.

Transcript

being half interested already and the ability to target people in the last 10, 15
years that we've, 20 years, you know, we can target people I think pretty tightly
now.
I think that's made us creatively lazy because that, that, that means that we can
almost rely on their interest. Do you know what I [00:38:00] mean? Yes. You
know, so, so, so therefore we don't have to attract their attention and therefore.
We've got a, a generation perhaps, of marketeers who've grown up in this
performance salesmanship world who perhaps aren't so familiar with
showmanship, with what you have to do to create preference because they're so
focused on proving superiority.
So, you know, how do you, how do you, and that's why I created the course
because it was, it's there to try to help people see what showmanship is, what it
does its effects, and, and how you might go about it and prove it or, or give
evidence to help support you make its case, you know, in your organization.
MichaelAaron Flicker: A third rail concept that maybe we can pick another
podcast to talk about is not just American politics, but all political campaigns
that have focused more on converting those that are already closest to your
point of view rather than.
Broad [00:39:00] based, inclusive political basis. Richard and I have a
unofficial life, lively debate about politics in the uk, the US and around the
world. And you know, there's so many interesting applications of what we're
talking about here, Orlando, not just for commercial application and brand
building, which is the topic of this podcast, but thinking about, you started the
podcast by saying there's implications in life and in other areas.
And I can't stop thinking about how political advertising over the last 30 years
has changed pretty dramatically in a similar bent.
Orlando Wood: Yes, I think it has. And I think actually. You, you see, and I
think you do see this sort of shift towards a kind of more narrow left brain
operational sort of transactional thing in all walks of life.
It's not just advertising, you know, you see it in, in, in everything from films and
music to, you know, car [00:40:00] colors. I talk about in my book, look out,
you know, everything's become gray and black and you know, silver, where do
the colors go, folks? You know?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wood: You see it, you know, pretty much everywhere.
And to anyone who sort of lived, I think in the. Eighties and nineties. I think
there has been this, you know, you can sense it, you can sense some change on
some level that is not altogether comfortable. And you know, and actually I
think you saw something similar in about 1900, 19 0 5, by the way, if you look
at, at art and the modern modernist movement, avant-garde movement at that
time, I do this in my book, look Out, you see how the stair became extremely
common in, in avant-garde art and also the breaking down of things into smaller
parts, Picasso and others.
But you, you, you see that stair in advertising too. You know, there's so many
ads today particularly, you know, about three or four years ago where you just
got, you know, [00:41:00] blank stare almost coercive, you know, really
unpleasant actually, you know, and the absence, complete absence of an idea.
Just the blank stare.
And that, you know, it's sort of a bit sinister in, in a sense. And, and that's one of
the things I talk about in Lookout is how do we, how do we put that
expressivity, that emotion, that narrative back into advertising, that charm that
understands human motivation. So yes, I think in all walks of life and, and, and
in political advertising too I, I suspect that is the case.
You know, I, I, I think back to Hal R's Reagan campaign, you know, good
morning, it's morning in America. You know, that, that, that was a look, you,
you watch that and now watch anything today, and you think, what a different
world and what a different way of talking to people. I think you're
fundamentally [00:42:00] different.
Richard Shotton: I think you're right that there's an awful lot of overlap
between commercial advertising and political advertising. He might be less
familiar in America, Michael Arum, but Tony Blair's kind of right hand man
kind of communications chief was Alistair Campbell head of this famous
phrase.
You know, it's only when you as a communicator are completely sick to death
of talking about an issue that it's finally landing. Now, that idea about the need
for kind of repetition is something I've heard you talk about a lot. Not in the
realms of politics, but in the realms of commercial brands.

So you've got this lovely phrase, familiarity breeds contentment Yes. Rather
than contempt. Yes. Yes. Could, could you explain what you mean by that and,
and why advertisers should, should apply it?
Orlando Wood: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, you know, I sort of came up
with this three [00:43:00] simple words to help us remember, you know, what
we really in the business of doing as marketeers and I I just describe them as
fame, feeling and fluency.
And they're really the sort of the emperors amongst the, the, the, the sort of
heuristics I suppose. You know, fa fame is sort of salience and, and making sure
you are kind of top of mind feeling is, you know, the affect heuristic and
making sure that you know, you are, you are, you are making people feel good
really, because that, that means that, you know, they'll instinctively go towards
you rather than someone else.
And then there's fluency, which is, which is the sort of fluency heuristic. So it's,
the ability to know what you are looking at, recognize it, and, and that helps you
by the way, to, to, to think of it first as well. You know, so there's sort of these
[00:44:00] three things really kind of go together and familiarity.
I would put in that, in that camp. Really familiarity, sort of all of those things,
isn't it? Fame, feeling and fluency. 'cause we tend to like things that are familiar
generally speaking, because they're safe, you know, I suppose if you think about
it. So yeah, I think that that familiarity, breed contentment is very.
Very important And, you know, Leo Burnett said, he talked about the glacier of
friendly familiarity, you know, in the characters that he created and in just
generally the advertising that he created that came from the Chicago School,
you know, that, that, that sort of warmth and familiarity that came with, with,
with a lot of his work, a lot of Leo Burnett's work.
And it's absolutely important. And, you know, I mean, system one's done some
work recently. [00:45:00] Looking at consistency and the importance of
consistency over time and how it has compounding, you know effects. I, I
looked at it in my work on fluent devices, you know, this term to suggest
characters that are repeatedly used or scenarios that are repeatedly, we talked
about Snickers a minute ago.
That would be a good example of that. Characters might be the Geico gecko or
the, or, you know, I dunno, in the uk, the, the compare the markets, meca, you
know, those, those, those sorts of devices, fluent devices, very important. And

the, the important, I think the really important thing about them is that they live,
and that's in intrinsically interesting to people.
They're part of the show because logos, fonts, shapes, colors, important as they
are. They're really just signs and symbols. For the left hemisphere, and they
flatten things and they're not there. [00:46:00] There's no ca, there's no, they
don't live. So they don't help to capture attention as, as well as something that
lives.
And that's why a, a living character or a living scenario that you understand the
context of, you know, that really for the right hemisphere, that's part of
showmanship. That's the showmanship way really. That, and music, I think I
would include in that too. That's the showmanship way of creating familiarity
and fame and fluency and feeling, and it, it really is important.
Now, I will also say that you do need novelty as well. And the great thing about
the fluent device, so the character or the scenario is that, you know, it's a bit like
you, you transpose it to a different key in music, you know, but it, it, it, the, the
tune is still there.
MichaelAaron Flicker: So you still, a character can have a new adventure
every time, even though a new adventure, it's the same character,
Orlando Wood: a new adventure, but there's a, there's a, there's a familiarity
[00:47:00] there as well.
And so it, it does, does both the job of novelty and, and freshness, but it also
brings things back to, you know, what the core brand and what it's all about.
Richard Shotton: And would it be fair to say those are, are doing different
things there, so the novelty gets attention, but the familiarity gets warmth and
likability?
Would that, would that be fair?
Orlando Wood: Yeah, I think they, they do. Yeah. And, and the I mean the
novelty also can, can, can create, you know, affect as well. But yeah, you're
right. You're right. I mean they, they, it sort of manages to, to, to, to kind of do
everything. And then when you've got a character and you've established a
character, you know, you can use those on, on fairly low attention media where
you might only have a few seconds to sort of establish who you are straight
away.

And actually there's a chance, and the work I've done [00:48:00] shows this, that
you're gonna pay attention for longer as well because you've got a character
that's doing something interesting. The living, you know, at the heart of this, we
know that the living, you know, advertising with the living in it is more likely to
drive attention and, and emotional response.
So that, that really important, you know, and there's the abstraction that goes
with salesmanship and left hemisphere advertising. Will literally push people
away. You know, well, not literally, but physically, but sort of they push their
gaze away, shall we say so that they're not looking anymore and unless they're
already, you know, warmed up to the brand or the in, in the window, in the
buying window.
MichaelAaron Flicker: Another connection that I've been thinking about as
you've been talking Orlando, is that familiarity has a way of breeding nostalgia,
and Richard and I have talked about how if you feel nostalgic, if you have this
familiarity feel, you might be even less price sensitive. You [00:49:00] have this
more of a sense that you're willing to pay more for something that that, that you
have familiarity with.
And maybe it's some nostalgia over
Orlando Wood: That's right. That's right. The fluent fluency. You know, if you
establish fluency. And I showed this in my work with Pete Field. If you've got,
you know, in particular fluent character, you know, there's a suggestion in the
IPA data that you, you, you, you are much less price sensitive, that you reduce
price sensitivity.
And that's one of the important ways in which SHOWMANSHIP works, is that
it strengthens price, which means that you can continue to charge a margin, you
know, and, and, or, or even increase your margin, maybe. But, but there's a,
that, that, because people are, are working on feeling, they're working on affect
and, and so they're not thinking, you know, how much does this cost relative to
the other, that they're sort of more instinctive in the way that they make the
decision.
And that's, that's why it's one of the great strengths of showmanship. But you're
right. And of things I wanna say about nostalgia is that. [00:50:00] It's
something that the right hemisphere is according to him. Mcg Gilchrist is
particularly attuned to. And at the heart of it is this sense of yearning for another
time or it could be another place.

And. And it's, it's a bit like homesickness. Homesickness is, is very similar to
nostalgia, really in, in the sort of thing that it is, you know, and, and the right
hemisphere yearns, whereas the left hemisphere wants. And so the, this sort of
yearning a and this sort of slight, this sort of, and that's what was at the heart of
romanticism, the movement romanticism was this yearning for place, for time,
for you know, another world you think, think back to, you think if you think this
has got nothing to do with advertising.
Anyone who was around or, or, or has been around in the uk. Well remember
the Hovis ad from 1973 with the boy on the bike going [00:51:00] down the hill
on the cobbled lane. You know, it was sort of set in the past and it was the
middle of recession really in 1973. And they created this sort of feeling around.
The, the brand through dvo Jack's New World Symphony, playing on, you
know, sort of the brass band and the background, all about yearning, yearning
for time, for place, for a different time, escapism really, and you know, hugely
successful ad and one that you know, everyone, it, it's been had in recent, recent
years, remade you know, that, that is extremely ripe brained and, and.
Connection between people, between people and place, between people and
time. You know, historical advertising, you know, that kind of advertising, but
you don't see so much anymore. But you used to see p advertising set in the past
quite a lot, you know, characters relating to each other and in a different period,
you know and humorously [00:52:00] so well that, you know, all of that is
immediately interesting to the right hemisphere 'cause it's trying to work out the
social context.
What's going on here? Why are these people dressed like that? Why are they
doing that? Why are they speaking funny? You know, all of that is, is
interesting. It's part of the show
MichaelAaron Flicker: and we had on the show a, a little bit ago Nir Eyal,
who's the author of a book Hooked, and he says that every product needs to
meet a psychological need.
Like it has to solve some psychological need. And something that you're talking
about here is. How does it solve not just a practical need, but at the heart of
romanticism yearning for a time or place? How does that, how can an add
satiate that psychological need for something that you, that you connect, you
want to connect with?

Orlando Wood: Yeah, absolutely. You know and I don't, I don't think you don't
see a great deal of advertising that that [00:53:00] does that brilliantly, I don't
think at the moment. But yeah, I think, I think a need that psychological need is,
is, is, you know, burn back said you've gotta understand people's motivation.
You know, you've gotta tap into a motivation and people get a vibration from an
ad before they read it or before they've even taken it in, you know? And so how
do you do that? You know, love at first sight type thing. And, and so that, that,
that, and it comes from that sort of instant right hemisphere presencing of the
world.
You know, what's hap what's, what's going on here, you know? And so yeah, I
agree. Motivation, understanding, motivation, really important. And so often
isn't it, isn't it the case that, you know, a lot of people on boards tend to be more
operationally focused and internally focused and, you know, it's [00:54:00]
perhaps only the marketeer who's looking out, you know, at, at, at, at the
customer.
And, and so boards tend to become very focused on the product. And so it's, it's
much easier sale to do salesmanship advertising 'cause it's pushing out why your
product's so brilliant. But what we need to do and what burn back I think did
very well was turn the telescope round and, and look at the product.
Through the audience's eyes and to make it feel like, you know, this is
something that, that, well, why wouldn't we want this? You know? And that,
that, that's the marketeers role really, because I think we do get really stuck. In
organizations, in focusing in on ourselves. That's why, partly why my second
book was called Lookout.
'cause you've gotta, you've gotta look out at the audience. You've gotta think
about how this looks from their point of view. They're not interested in your
brand most of the time. They're not interested in you, in, in, in [00:55:00]
products, you know, except when they need them. So you've gotta be
interesting, arresting, engaging, and find a way to look at, look at yourself in a
sort of, he believed in being self-deprecating.
You know, having a sense of self-awareness at the very least about what you're
doing and, and putting and, and, and having a sense of proportion about how
important you are because people get very bored of, of listening to people, you
know who, who are self-important all the time. So self-awareness and that sense
of, you know, humility, I guess that Burn Back had in his copy and his, his
advertising, the think of those VW Beetle ads, you know, lemon. Brilliant. You

know, because it, it's, it's, you've talked about this too, Richard. You know, this,
you know, this sort of, sort of, so the, what's the term's called? The practical
effect.
Richard Shotton: So, but the interesting thing there, exactly, the prac, exactly
[00:56:00] the Pral effect was first experimented on in 1966 by Elliot Aaronson
at Harvard, and he came up with this experimental way of showing that a small
flaw made you more appealing. But interestingly, you've been quo, burn back,
burn back in 1959.
Said a small admission gains a large acceptance. So often the great creatives,
the great absolutely planners, the ones that have been looking out and paying
attention of what influences people. Yeah. They've come up with these ideas
before the academics.
Orlando Wood: Yeah.
Richard Shotton: Hmm.
Orlando Wood: No, I mean that, I mean, and, and he was, he was, he said, you
know, we're very happy to appear self-deprecating about our product if it serves
us in.
I proving a greater truth about, you know, what we're about type, I'm
paraphrasing, but it was along those lines. And you know, it's a bit like easy.
Yeah, not easy Jet, sorry, Ryanair then their, in their advertising recently on
TikTok, you know, they, they sort of laugh at them. Someone will ask,
[00:57:00] you know, do, do you provide free wifi?
You know, and then they have a little laughing face on the, on the front of the
plane, you know, as if. You know it's playing to their, it's playing to their
strengths. You know, it's playing to what?
Richard Shotton: It's not a random weakness that's being admitted as you say,
it serves a greater truth. No, you admit that the idea of wifi is ridiculous and it
really lands the message that, well, you must be darn cheap.
MichaelAaron Flicker: Yeah.
Orlando Wood: Hmm. That's really good on cheapness then. Yeah.

MichaelAaron Flicker: I hate to end our conversation 'cause this has been a
lovely a lovely chat. Orlando, I, the last point you made about a marketeer
mission may be a high note to end on, but let me ask one final question. If you
wanted marketers to take one big principle away from the work that you have
been focused on and that they could implement, what would it be?
What would you [00:58:00] want them to, to stay focused on as they end the
podcast and they go back to their day jobs of trying to build their brands and
build their companies? What, where would you focus their attention?
Orlando Wood: Yeah. Well, I would say that. You know, you have to put on a
show and that your show needs to be more interesting, more entertaining, more
arresting than the content that surrounds you.
And if you do that, you are, you, you are already a long way ahead. And that's
that's very important and. The work that, that I do and I've done, I think, gives
you a sense of a flavor for what that show might look like. So anyway, I hope,
hope it's helpful and and thanks very much for having me, guys.
MichaelAaron Flicker: Thank you. Thank you. So as we always do, we will
take the conversation from today in our show notes. We're gonna have links to
the things Orlando raised, the conversations we've [00:59:00] had. And we
would double underscore for all of our listeners. Advertising principles
explained.com is the course that Orlando has mentioned.
They have a new cohort coming out September 22nd if you'd like to join that.
But either way, please take a, take a look at the course and so much of what we
talked about today will be featured there. And until next time, we say thank you
to Orlando for being with us. Thanks to Richard and Orlando for a great
conversation.
If you'd like this podcast, please give us a comment, give us a, a follow and
share it with other marketers who are just as interested as we all are in these
important topics. Thanks for coming on Orlando and being with us today.
Advertisement: Behavioral Science for Brands is brought [01:00:00] to you by
Method One, recognized as one of the fastest growing companies in America
for the third year in a row. Featured on Ink's 5,000 List Method one is a proudly
independent, creative, and media agency grounded in behavioral science. They
exist to make brands irresistible, helping people discover products, services, and
experiences that bring moments of joy to their lives.

As behavior change experts Method one creates emotional connections that
drive true brand value for their clients. Focusing primarily with indulgence
brands in the CPG space. Find out more@methodone.com.