Episode 30 - From the Swamp to the Stars - Tony Severio

I'm reminded constantly of the duality of the human condition within knives. As diverse as the knifemaking community is, at it's core, we all share a common bond, not of knives, but of our experiences that lead us to create, knifes being the creative medium we choose. This is no truer than for Tony Severio, a real Louisiana renaissance man. Whether it's his humble beginnings in the bayous, his vast experience in the film and movie industry, his knifemaking, or the way he captivates the imagination of others with his down-to-earth perspective on life, you will quickly tell that Tony is not only salt of the earth, but made of stardust. In this episode of the podcast, Tony and I sit down and talk about knives, but more importantly, about the fabric of intention, motivation and drive that has the ability to consume us all, if we choose to accept the muse. It was an extreme pleasure to get the time with a mentor of mine, if only by way of his online teaching.

Be sure to follow Tony Severio on his social media:

Tony Severio's Facebook
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Tony Severio's Website
Tony Severio's Youtube

Aaron Lawvere: Website, Instagram
Podcast: Instagram

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:21

Thank you for listening into another episode of the Good Old Place Podcast. I am your host, Aaron O'Veere, and I am joined by a super cool dude. We were just talking before the podcast, but um I also talked to Steve Schwarzer about this. Tony Severio is a knife maker that uh is a humongous uh uh influence in the the knife making craft because he's taken all of his experience and posted it on to YouTube. He had some really great videos out there. And when I was learning how to make uh dovetailed bolsters and to apply them correctly to my knives, um I looked at Tony's video probably not long after he posted it about four years ago. And it's something that I'm actually known for and recognized for inside of my own knives. So I I've known Tony in the periphery and kind of followed him as a YouTube sensation and and and his work as I see in publication and whatnot, but uh it didn't really dawn on me until recently that I like that's the person that I should have on on the podcast. So uh Tony, it's an incredible pleasure to have you on and and get to talk about your life and everything. And uh I just really appreciate you spending the time with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Thank you. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Um so I guess you know, I usually start out with uh just asking uh a little about history. Um, you know, I've I've seen all of like the your social media and website type of stuff and whatnot, and I kind of want to pick into a little bit of that as we go along, but I'd really like, in your words, uh if you could just talk a little bit about um, you know, how you grew up and how knives played a role in that and what made you decide to get into uh knife making.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Sure. Sure. Well, I grew up in South Louisiana and some in southern Mississippi, but I was born and raised here in South Louisiana around the Baton Rouge area, um, little town called Denham Springs. Um kind of halfway in between the swamps and uh woodlands, upper woodlands, what we call woodlands here. Excuse me. But um, you know, doing a lot of hunting and fishing was a common thing. It was, you know, I was raised in a pretty modest uh family, you know. My uh my dad was a laborer and and um uh a welder and and uh you know we just you know worked hard and it was it was we were a poor family and uh we we did things a poor folks' way, uh as people would say. We raised our gardens and we raised our animals that we ate and we hunted and fished and we ate from the land, you know. So um it was a uh it was a great childhood. I enjoyed it. I have a brother and a sister and had a lot of family around where I grew up, and uh so I I had a lot of not just my my siblings but cousins and all that we grew up together. We did a lot of camping and and uh we had places to fish, you know, on the bayous, and uh my dad always had a camp on the bayou, and um we spent a lot of time there. I mean, uh our summers and um and a lot of times in the winter. I mean, my dad would do off and on commercial fishing and and um so we use knives a lot to say the least. I mean, whether it's skin and game or fish or or hogs and cows, you know, that we raised. Uh rabbits, you name it, we raised it. And so knives were a big part of my life. And I I mean I had a knife in my hand at a very young age. Um my dad would would put it in our hands and we would help. So probably in my seven, eight years old, I was using a knife and learning how to use a knife. But it was a it was a great childhood, great experience. Um my grandfather was uh an outdoorsman, and he was like a Tom Sawyer to me, and and uh matter of fact, has a uh a story that kind of sidelines the Tom Sawyer story. But he was uh he was like a kid till he died, and he uh he just wanted to stay in the woods, and and he and I would go in the woods at at uh after breakfast and not come home for a couple days. We would just stay in the woods. We didn't have camp, you know, equipment, anything like that. We would just sleep under the trees back in the swamp. And he taught me a lot about just basic uh navigation at night in the woods and how to get out if you got lost and how to find your way using the stars and just different things like that. But uh he was a character. A lot of good times.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

Yeah, that that's really cool. Um in uh the difference uh I think between the the hunting that I grew up around and then I I moved to Texas when I was 18, um, is like the the swamp experience of hunting is a completely different one than just just being out and j on dry land and everything, especially with how you traverse it. Um did you um in addition to like normal Louisiana game, did you do a lot of swamp hunting like for alligators and other things like that too?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Oh yeah, we did, you know, a lot of apart, you know, frogging and catching alligators and things like that was all part of it. I mean, so where I lived was you know, not on the bayou, but just just a a little few miles, I'd be I could be on the bayou, just down the road. And and just a few miles north of me, I could be in the upper lands of southern Mississippi. So uh you if you go north of New Orleans or north uh west, just about 50 miles, that's where I'm at. So I was in that midpoint. So we got the kind of like the best of both worlds, of both worlds of hunting and wildlife. You either had the extreme swamp or the rolling hills, as we call them. And so you was you know hunting white tail in the rolling hills and other game down in the swamp, but a lot of white tail in the swamp. We just didn't hunt them a lot down there because it's it's it's a whole kind of different kind of hunting of gear-wise and access and everything else to to deer hunting in uh in the water. You know, that's basically what you're hunting in. Um, but uh once you get out of the very wet land, I should say, you um it might be, you know, you'd have an occasional uh water would be in a little bit of whatever you rabbit hunting and and things like that. You'd be wearing waders or rubber boots with run beagles and things like that, but um in a lot of cases there was no water. It just depends on the season and what's going on with the weather, you know. Um, and and then there's some places where it's just nothing but water. But um a lot of the hunting that I enjoyed was in the the uh north of where I lived in in uh the Rolling Hills, where you know I did a lot of game hunting, rabbits, squirrels, and deer and that sort of thing. But most of the southern stuff was like you say, we was it was it was more fishing, and which included alligators and that sort of thing. But we we we ate everything that was on the bayou and and in the bayou. So uh a lot of people would frown if I even mentioned some of the things we eat like nutria. Yeah, and I I'm sure you know what that is.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

Oh yeah. Um yeah, I don't I don't think I've ever eaten nutria before, but you know, when it comes to frog frog legs and uh alligator and stuff, it's just the other white meat.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Well, yeah. That's what they say. Well, I I mean I uh those kind of foods I I've never really shied away from it. I spent a little bit of time uh living in Louisiana um when I was a kid. Um I was about uh 11 years old. And we were we're just uh out uh in Oakdale um area outside of Alexandria.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

And and I gained uh a deep appreciation for the the the types of food that come out of the Cajun culture. Um and I you know whether it's crawfish or um etouffés or things like that, you know, what whatever type of um seafoods and things that you can catch local and whatnot, I've always really appreciated that. And and I think that's one thing that I actually really is endearing about the culture in Louisiana is that um the the food and the terrain um and the culture, uh music and everything like that are all just kind of like this big melting pot. It's like a uh the culture in Louisiana is like a good gumbo.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yeah, it is, man. And and you when you you just mentioned something that I I discuss a lot with people and um back in in my filmmaking days and and working with a uh guy that's doing documentary here and uh talking about Cajun music and the and it's the same with cajun food, whether you're in east southeast Louisiana or Southwest Louisiana or North Louisiana. So the music is is totally different, in my opinion, from the southeast to the southwest. It's the same with food. For example, uh the way a gumbo is prepared uh in in Southeast is compared to uh Southwest, as there's different ways, different ingredients, and of course I have uh pretty extreme opinion about it, but I try to back it up with history and facts, you know. And I've had some great uh conversations with with friends and folks from from the other uh what I call across the pond, which is the Chafala basin, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Yeah, yeah, I've gotten uh almost fist fights around people and uh and whether beans go in chili or not. So that seems to be the Texas argument. So I can understand the different foods. You know, and that's something that um like not every bit of Louisiana is swamped. There's lots of people who don't really understand uh the the culture or layout or things. And to me, uh it's it's always been real cool because uh uh what I learned uh when I moved down to Texas is there's so many different microclimates. Um and it's it's no different in Louisiana because there's you know like everything uh near the ocean and then all the bayou and piney woods and everything like that too, and you know, rolling hills. It's like there's so many different flavors of Louisiana for everybody to have, and that's why I make it uh uh an association with the culture in general, because uh it it is like um I became uh um acquainted with Cajun style fiddling and whatnot because I was a fiddle player up in the Appalachians in Pennsylvania. And um we um you know we learn like a lot of traditional um Appalachian uh fiddle tunes and whatnot, but I also had a teacher that was from Nova Scotia and I had lived there for a little while too. Uh followed my dad for work. And um, you know, the the the French influence um in music from Canada and then um how I got into uh some of the music from Louisiana and whatnot is is real interesting to me. But whether it's music, whether it's food, whether it's the history um um or the landscape, I th I it's it's I mean, there's so much that you can pull from uh from Louisiana itself. And knives is no is no exception to that. I mean I've I've seen some incredible knives um come out of the uh Louisiana people. And um it it seems where that's the footprint was maybe a little bit more scattered before we see things like the Louisiana Knife Show that um I guess is uh it'll be next week uh when this is uh uh rec uh uh actually published online. It'll be that weekend on the ninth, the ninth, right? Um but yeah, some some incredible um knife makers from the area uh joining that, and their work is superb too.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Right, right. Well, there's a lot of makers that have gone that were that were uh very good. I mean, uh that's no longer with us uh and no longer making. I mentioned one of them a while ago, which is Robert Captapal, him and his son, Randy. And you had Mike Sanders, and um you had one that just passed away here a while back, uh Master Smith in West Louisiana, and um I'm drawing a blank on his name, but he was incredible. Um you got J.W. Randall in Louisiana, he's a Master Smith that makes outstanding looking blades, and and uh he's been here a long time making knives. But it's um you know, it's uh like it's like the the culture, it's a it's a melting pot. And there has been some popularity with knives over the years, of course the TV show. It's caused a lot of that, but um that's cool. It gets the word out, and um we've got some you know up and coming makers that are doing great work here, and and uh it's good to see. Very good to see.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Yeah, so what um what did you do before you got into knives? I know that we've talked a little bit about um you know uh film and movies and stuff like that. Can you talk a little bit about that uh phase of your life and what what kind of got you into knife making specifically?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Well, I I started making knives in in around 1989, so it's been a very long time. I just um I did I I did a lot of I like to do a lot of things. And um, of course I wasn't doing it full time, but uh I'm a my background and was an electrician. And um, but I started as a welder under my father. And uh when welding ran out uh back during those days and and uh things were tough with the economy, uh I had uh young chrome grabbers to feed, and um you know I just started working with electricians welding for them. And you know, we work in chemical plants and refineries here, that's what I was doing. And um, so eventually I um I migrated over to the electrical field after going to some schooling and uh working with the contractors I was working with to help me get into trade school and learn the craft, and I became a German electrician. And uh, but during that time, um, you know, I always I mean I made my first knife from a file, and uh and then you know I I made a lot of more sharp pointy objects, and you know, you I started with a side grinder and some kind of uh Sears four-inch belt sanding thing, not made for knives, but um you know, it's it's just very rudimentary knife making, if you if that's what you want to call it. And but before that, you know, it was it was focusing on my career as an electrician. I wasn't really ever focused on making knives for a living. I would just want to make them, make a better knife, uh the way I put it to myself. And you know, I I got off into the uh filmmaking at an early age as well. So I was doing, you know, being interested in filmmaking and knife making basically at the same time. So both were my hobby, and I started dabbling with short films. I'm I'm talking about shooting on actual eight millimeter film. Uh we didn't have that, was before we had video cameras, and now we have digital cameras and things like that. And of course, I could have never afforded a 16 millimeter, which is a quite a step above an eight. And um, you know, so I I started down that path making short films. And uh eventually, um, you know, years down the road, just kept upgrading equipment, learning more about the craft, meeting uh, you know, people in the industry, and uh, you know, just kind of getting making my way. And when we got once we got the internet, I found out more about knife making and I found out more about filmmaking and made more connections and and all that thing. So um, you know, eventually yeah, I wanted to to delve off not just into filmmaking, but into acting as well. So um, you know, eventually I got an agent, and uh I've had uh two or three different ones, but um and I never was a good actor, and uh obviously I'm not in it, but um no longer I don't fool with the business anymore. But uh my youngest son's still active, and um he's he's done very well with it, but um as far as a filmmaker, I mean I worked as a director, a producer, uh editor, a director of photography on several films over the years, you know. I mean, I wrote and directed two full-length features, but I worked as a DP on several films and uh producer and you know, production assistants all the way down. I mean, I started out doing extra work for acting, and uh, you know, when I first got my foot into the film world, uh, as far as I what I call the Hollywood world, uh, not not just independent filmmaking. Uh, it's a whole different world, let me put it to you that way. Um, there's a lot of uh a lot of politics, and which has a lot to do why I'm no longer in the business. Um, plus I lost my butt on my film company, but I'm not even gonna go into that. Um, because we did we had a production company and we was doing commercials and um mostly commercials and you know, internet commercials. One of and then one of my features pretty much put us under. And um that's that's the price you pay. It's a very risky business, and it's risky for for your investors, it's risky for everybody because you just can't predict you know the outcome of a film. I mean, you take the uh you take the latest Indiana Jones, for example. Everybody that was a part of that project would tell you that it's gonna make a killing. Well, it flopped. Um, so you it's it's very hard to predict. And um, you know, no matter how good you think you are, no matter how you good your story, it's really all about how good your marketing is, and um which is totally separate from acting. You have to market yourself and and train, and uh so I I've had my foot in a lot of things. I've met a lot of great people along the way, a lot of famous people I've worked with and got to know and become friends with. And um it's just it's been a crazy ride, let me put it to you that way. Uh, but the knife making is is was was parallel in all of that at the same time. Um I was you know, maybe there's something wrong with me. I I can't be still. And uh I just a lot of things interest me, and uh, you know, whether it's hunting, fishing, knife making, filmmaking, that you know, my my mother's an artist, and uh that's where I get a lot of that from. And my dad was an outdoorsman and a builder, and could do build anything, craftsman. So it's a combination of things, I guess, you know, in the genes.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Yeah, that's all that's all incredibly fascinating. I mean, I I g I would say that there's not a lot of difference, I guess, with being in the film industry and knives in the sense of business, because there's a lot of risk uh involved with knives and uh you know for for the like a highly successful or celebrity um style of knife maker, right? But um exactly you know, yeah it's it's it's like make or break. You go to a show and spend a lot of money and it could bust you, or you could uh invest a lot of m uh money in materials or things like that. But you know, there's a lot of uh a lot of knife makers I know that are phenomenal knife makers that you would not know that they existed unless it was for some presence on some. social media because you know there's not like the guild shows um uh like the the national guild shows anymore and things like that it's like uh you know there's one avenue that they kind of stuck to and if you were outside of that world you almost never see them exactly exactly well I took a five year break um with my knife making I think I made three knives in that that break and it was totally uh I was totally focused on my film business and and um filmmaking and plus I was um at the same time I was busy I had an agent that had me on the road every day I may be flying to South Carolina to audition and uh so I was I was so busy with that it was hard for me to really focus on on filmmaking on knife making and so uh eventually uh you know I had to make a choice and of course uh the the business made it for me when we we lost our our company and um I decided to just focus on knife making and and make a living eventually I went full time with this two years ago and I've been very blessed to say the least and I haven't uh I mean I've never had a table at Blade Show.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

I did shows here in South Louisiana back back way back when and hadn't done shows in years. This will be the first show that I've done in many years. I've just built a clientele and uh you know marketed myself my knives my work and through social media and like you you know the you've seen the videos I I believe that making videos showing potential customers what goes into your knife how you make it and the work that goes into it is a big big selling factor and um it's a a little more it gives it lends a more a little more appreciation to the to the maker and to what goes into the craft and to the product and you know it's it's kind of like I'm opening my shop and let you see and watch and this is how I do it. And so I've haven't I haven't had to do any shows and um because I I mean right now I'm booked out I'm booked out probably a year and I don't uh advise anybody doing that because it has really caused me a lot of headache um I was warned not to do that my good buddy Steve Schwarzer warned me not to do that and um I would really rather just make what I want to make and sell it because customize with a list is a pain let me tell you um it is a pain uh but uh again it's a blessing for me um when I uh went full time I um I haven't stopped I haven't uh you know it it hasn't been easy at all and there's nothing lucrative about this if you're gonna make high quality knives not just uh prison shanks with a shiny handle broom handle on and sharp you know what I'm talking about uh I see a uh a TikTok's famous for that um uh I I'm on there too and um um but if you if you want the good clients and you want to uh you know have a uh reputation you you need to make quality products and it takes time to do that um and it depends on the style and and all that and a knife you're working on you know I can I do both stock removal and forged knives I make a lot I make all of my own Damascus so it depends on what I'm making if I'm doing stainless knives or forged mosaics that one's going to take a lot more work and a lot more time than the other and uh a lot of most of the knives that I make and sell and people want are mosaic hunters and and uh skinners you know it's it's not a lot of the stainless knives that I made um I'm I'm uh you know that I do make and um but I I enjoy doing both it you know I'm I don't have a a preference but I I really love forging let me just uh say that uh forging is a lot of fun but um it it's a it's not an easy business and uh and it's not an overnight deal and uh you know it took me 30 plus years to collect the tools that I have today and I build a lot of my own tools and uh it just doesn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

You have to build a uh a reputation and a client list or a clientele and and uh you know like the movie if you build it they will come and uh it it just takes a long time it did for me let me say that and I'm not there I don't I'm not uh like Steve Schwarzer says when you think you have arrived you're just getting started and that that's the truth yeah well and um you know it's I I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing or if it's just a uh a human condition thing but I I saw this uh this cartoon that's that was up on Facebook or something like that and it showed two different lines and it showed uh people who want to be successful um or you know it's uh or winning you're right there everybody's like lined up to uh to be in the winning line but then the the little booth or whatever or line that's uh talks about uh doing what it takes to win nobody shows up to it right and like that's something that I think that's really a a difficult concept for a lot of people to understand is that um there is no get rich quick scheme in in anything that has a lot of substance. You know if it's here today and gone tomorrow it might be easy to break in or maybe you can get um your foot in the door um and and hit a a luck streak. But if if you're really like looking at the building blocks of anything that has substance for a long period of time um it takes a lot of work a lot of energy a lot of blood sweat and tears you know and that's a that's no small uh uh thing in knives either because uh I mean I've seen the hands of uh hard working knife makers and they're not pretty yeah man you got that right it's it's 80 hours a week at I work a minimum of 60 for sure and uh the last m month or so I've been putting in way more than that um I matter of fact when this podcast is over I'll be in the shop finishing up some heat treating so uh it's a never ending process um you you gotta stay with it you can't you just gotta quit counting your your labor and yeah at least in the customs uh it it's a different world if you're doing you know a factory or a production style knife and and that's something I would love to do I just don't know if that's ever going to work out but who knows yeah and that that even comes with a lot of risk too because you know like I I see I I see some custom makers who will spend um a decent amount of time in their career um developing new patterns out and things like that and then they get to a point where one pattern is like a really um hot ticket for them and then they'll try to take that into the production world but uh unless you have um a a lot of savings or you know that uh pre-orders are gonna work out well or you have an avenue where somebody's gonna buy them and take take that risk on for you you got to spend all that money and manufacturing those things and finish them out and quality control and then you have to worry about if you know another production company makes it for you if they're gonna ruin your reputation on a production line. So it's like nothing nothing good uh comes without risk um but there's a lot of things that if you the the more risk averse you are the harder it's gonna be because you're growing stuff real slow.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Right, right. And and and everything you just said is all of the reasons why I have it.

unknown 30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

I have uh folders on my computer with ideas and and marketing plans and business plans for something like that that just I I'll click off of it after thinking about it a while because it's a huge risk um like you say with anything and it's it's the man or the person with a great vision and a good very good plan and a good marketing strategy that can make that work.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

You take like Josh Smith uh he has a great model and uh I can remember I have the magazine here in my shop uh office somewhere of Josh Smith standing at a grinder when he was 13 years old and uh you know I was just reading a magazine I was a young knife maker and uh and I was like you you would never know you never see that one day you know this guy being a a uh mastersmith has now got a uh very high quality company knife production company and uh but he's got a great plan and and and he's he's running it well apparently yeah I mean and an another thing about Josh and the Montana knife company is that uh well one one he's gotten a lot of really great exposure uh from Joe Rogan and a lot of the other uh hunting crowds and and you know celebrities but um one thing that I I really appreciate about his product is it's very high quality for for the cost and and so it puts those knives um which you know I I would probably consider them production but really semi-production because he's touching every or you know the the his team is touching every one of them and quality controlling them real high but um but the the quality of those knives is is what I would consider something coming out of a master smith's mind. He doesn't skimp on those things just to uh make a quick buck. And if he's making money at it that's great. But uh th those like some of the prices on like a speed goat and other other um products like that are very obtainable for knife uh for uh knife collectors or users that don't have the extra scratch to get into uh you know true custom work so it's kind of opening up the world of knives to a lot more people too you're right and and you know he's leveraging uh he's a good he's a great communicator and uh you know he's a good leader and that's where it starts I can tell you with any business um and he's he's put it forth and uh you know starting with a mediocre uh setup and and running with it and man that's just awesome I mean I'm I'm happy for that man and I think it's a great thing for him um but like you say it is a high quality product and and his reputation will sell it and and and then once the user has it it's gonna sell more of them because it's it's a high quality product and that's with you know from the from the nobody name that maker to the maker with a big name that's where it that's where it starts that's the seed and um I I tell people this all the time I didn't sell my knives for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

I made them and you know I'd give them to uncles and brothers and cousins but I was I could look at them and you know say it ain't that great and you know the I went to a knife show here in in Louisiana and I said I'm gonna sell my knives I walked around and I saw a few tables and I said I I can I can sell my knives you know with these guys. So I I get my table and and I'm set up at the show and I'm sitting right next to Randy and Robert Captepal and I looked at their knives and looked at mine and I wanted to cover mine up and uh you know no matter how much I thought I was ready I was still needing some help and I think that's a uh you know if if you can recognize that and even to this day I I have makers look at my knives and and and master smiths a while back Swarzer he he'll stop by here and and and stay with me and and we'll get to hang out in the shop a couple days and he's he'll sit down and say okay what do you think about this knife? And um he'll he'll be brutal about it and uh he'll work me over the colds and that's exactly what I want. I want to know what you think about it. Same with uh my bud JW Randall he uh he'll tell you if there's you know if you want to hear it you know he'll tell you and that's I think that's a a lot of a lot of young makers don't want to don't want to have any input they get kind of angry at you and um you know if you don't want to know don't don't ask um I think I think you need to learn as much as you can and continue learning because that's what I do. I want to continue learning and I've I'm I'm nobody and I I learn something every day and I I see knives every day that is miles and leaps and bounds ahead of mine and I want to just sell all of my equipment and do something else. So uh and and that's just something I recognize um a person ought to want to get better all the time at their craft and um you know instead of you know trying to uh sell a prison shank focus on making a better prison shank till you you know till you get something that's you know you got some good clean grind lines and um something besides a broom handle for uh grip and unless that's what the the you know it's designed for but that's that is the biggest problem I see in this this uh you know if I'm anybody wanting to grow and you know become better maker and become successful Smith like we're talking about with Josh he he didn't settle for for um prison shanks I can tell you and um I I I don't want to do that either it's just it's it's just something that's ought to be in a person for any craftsman to to have some pride about your work and and quality and you know the whole nine yards that's the only way you can build customers anyway they know a customer or collector or anybody they they're not you know if you can see it they can see it. And uh you know from heat treating uh you know to the final product um I've I tell this story a lot I'm I met a maker that learned how to forge or make knives from watching a TV show and for two years he was making these things and selling them and didn't realize he needed to temper it. Didn't realize he needed to temper his knives and so can you imagine what's running around out there I mean it's that I just don't understand you know why you would jump off into doing that without learning the craft and educating yourself beyond a reality show. And I'm not knocking at a TV show um I don't I know a lot of I have a lot of friends that's that's been on it and uh my JW Randall's been on there twice won it twice um but uh it it's the the it's not an educational program so people shouldn't take it as that it's entertainment.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

I've worked on those shows uh those kind of shows reality TV shows and it I can promise you it's to entertain it's it's full of drama and you name it and uh so proper education and fortunately it took me a while but I was able to get that and go and get under somebody's wing and and and whenever I can I get under somebody else's wing and uh learn more and continue to to you know learn the craft it's it just makes sense to me yeah no I uh I I can't I can't really place it um like the the mentality whether it's like whether it comes from ego or whether it comes from like you know culture or things like that. Like uh you know I I hear so many stories of uh older knife makers that the experience they got from like the previous generation um or group of makers was it it was it was almost critical of their work to the point where they would they would rather you fail out and not do it to like discourage you and so there wasn't so many makers than it was to to actually encourage you. But in in this world of of of makers that I I've associated with and seek mentorship from and everything I I haven't experienced anybody who would rather uh uh get a leg up in the industry over my dead body in the swamp right it's it's it's it's everybody is so willing to help and so willing to invest their time at their own detriment because they can't spend that time in the shop or promoting themselves or things like that that if you'll seek it out then there's any number of guys that are that will be there to help you not just tell you that your thing sucks because they want to discourage you. And I think that may maybe that's a large difference because you know in making knives for 30 plus years you've probably seen the Gambit too where you know there's there's those people who won't give you the time of day because they just don't want to see you go anywhere. And then being the kind of knife maker and mentor where you're more than willing to cherry yourself in every capacity that you can just to help another person like get get under themselves and and try to figure it all out. I think that's a uh more people should take advantage of that and and seek out people because we don't operate in an island, right? I mean we're we're all in some way influenced by other knife makers and other artisans in order to get where we are and y it doesn't detract from uh your own work if you take these pieces I mean look at Steve Schwarzer he's a uh yeah he he's somebody who will give attribution to all the people that he can uh that helped him to get where he was or to build his Rolodex of knowledge and and he is proud of that he's proud of the people that he's associated with and um it's it's no detriment to a person if they are willing to seek knowledge out and and seek uh you know constructive criticism for their work in order to get better well yeah man um I'll I'll tell you some things about the past that um you my my theory or my my opinion is you only compete against yourself.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

I'm not competing against anybody else and that's what I've held on to for a long time and when I first started making I was fortunate that eventually it took a year or so before I met the the CaptoPons and uh took me on their wing and really straightened me out of what I had already learned. And I I was learning from books. We didn't have internet like I say or at least I didn't it was very infant back then. Very few people had it and there wasn't anything online so I um you know they really straightened me out a lot they taught me how to make dovetail bolsters and how to how to pin them but that wasn't something new it was that was that had been around for quite a while and they learned it from someone and uh like George Heron and some of those you know Ron Gaston from from the Carolinas there I mean I that's what he did. And if you look at some of his work and look at some of my older knives and you know you can see that I was you know making my bolsters like his and some of my handle shapes but one of the reasons that it took me so long to uh join and get into ABS and go for my journal stamp is because of what you was talking about a while ago. Exactly and I'm talking about the from the guild and the ABS in the old days um there was a lot of what you're talking about man is it's uh people didn't want to didn't want to share anything they didn't want anybody else to compete with there was too many makers and I mean you you didn't have to be told right in the face about it it was obvious and it was and then there was a bickering going on between The two organizations about stock removal and forged and which one was better. I don't know if you remember that stuff, but it was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

But now that has gone away, or at least the I I can't see any of it. And I think that both the guild and the ABS are fine, outstanding organizations, or they're they're run by great people today. And it it made me decide. And I had a few uh Master Smiths and Smiths pushing me, you know, go, you need to get your your journal stamp. And so I did. I went and tested. I hadn't got my stamp. I went and tested my uh performance test. And um, but you know, I'm I'm just excited about that and and I'm excited about the organization. And uh a friend of mine is just joined the guild, and I think it's uh you know it's it's a great community now, and like you were talking about, everybody now is sharing and uh willing to help. And I can remember when that was not the case, and one of the reasons why I started putting things online several years ago was for that reason. I'm a I'm gonna share with you know the the people, guys that want to know that don't just can't find anybody to help them. And maybe just a little bit of what I can share will help somebody. And you know, I wasn't monetized or anything like that until recently. I'm talking a couple years ago. So I I've been putting out content just for the the some of it is uh you know, it helps market myself, but um it's valuable material in in a lot of ways, like you were talking about the dovetail bolster video. Um it may not be the best way to do something, but it'll get somebody started. You know, I even I even do things differently now as far as dovetail bolsters than I did back then. I have a few a few shortcuts, a few things I do differently, but that's just you know, the the basics are there, but you would never find anything like that or anybody sharing anything like that 25 years ago. It wasn't nowhere, and and you you you had to really know somebody, and and somebody had to take you in their wing and you know, don't show anybody this and blah blah blah. I've even had people uh comment online to me, uh, why are you sharing this? You know, uh you I don't understand what the problem is. Is there is there something wrong with that? Is and and uh well you share secrets. Well, it's not a secret, they learned it from somebody, you know, they didn't develop it. I can you know it's like knife patterns. You there's not a knife pattern out there that's that's today that's original. Unless it's some kind of uh fantasy pattern. Basic basic using knives and uh have been around forever. I I've got a box out in my shop that probably has a thousand patterns in it. And I'll see one pop up online. I just developed this pattern, uh, you can't use it, but here I want to show it to you, and I look in my box, and there I got one pretty close to it. Um it's it's that kind of thing. I don't in unless you're patenting something like that and selling it and marketing as a production deal, you know, it's a it's kind of hard to to uh argue with that stuff, but sidetracking you there, it's a it's a different world today. You take guys like Nick Rossi and uh you know so many makers that are sharing their knowledge with with people, and just you know, got schools and they're they're making a living from it, and it making a living from sharing, not just making the tool, but uh showing people how to do it. And I think that is the coolest thing ever, man. Um it's it's it's a it's a different world now, put you know, put it to you that way.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Yeah, and I don't I don't feel that that's a sidetrack. I mean that's kind of the uh the point of the conversation, right? Is I I um I I think that's my like a portion of my consideration is trying to accumulate uh valuable knowledge, right? Because in the age of the internet, uh anybody can post anything and it doesn't necessarily mean that it's qualified, right? Right, right. And and like I I'll I'll use an example of why I really liked your video on dovetail bolsters. Is um a good looking knife, even if a lot of people can't explain what makes it look good, is that it it's it's geometrically beautiful, right? It has all of the ratios uh that the human eye uh looks at and finds pleasing. And that's everything from the finish to the profile to the pin placement to the handle material colors, everything. And yeah, even uh there there's lots of knives that I see that might not have a proportion that's like super um like doesn't hit on all the points for me. Um but I can argue always that it has great ratios and things. Um and uh the the idea at least that I had um when I was uh when I was going to get into bolsters is that I didn't want the bolsters to be misaligned and I wanted them to have a really great um uh you know chamfer or a bevel on the on the the you know the ricasso side and I wanted them to all line up correctly on the on the the back side where the handle material fits. And when you add dovetails onto that, you add a uh an additional level of of geometry and dimensionality that you have to account for in your setup, otherwise when you get that all together, it's gonna look like garbage if it's not right. That's right. And and the way that you laid that out um not only took into account those things for me, like I could tell that we were on the same page about what you should look for in good, like well-executed dovetail bolsters, but you also showed a process to get from the start to the finish on that that produced that result. And so um for me it was just a really complete video. Now, I I mean I've also modified uh some of the way that I do things. Like I uh I I've had a pin press for a long time, but I wasn't always using it for my bolsters, and I uh I incorporated that in um to get to get the bolsters to line up correctly and everything and make sure that there's no shifting going on. I use a file guide uh just to hold everything true. Um I've used um uh super glue uh at first to attach the uh the bolsters together to get the symmetry right and everything on both sides, but I've switched to using uh like painter's tape and and and duct tape or sorry, painter's tape and uh uh super glue. Like there's a bunch of little things that I've found that are easier in my mind, but the rudiments of how I actually execute those things still is the same. And I'll tell everybody if they want like I charge a little bit more for for doing dovetail bolster work because of the geometry and the setup, and it takes several hours for me to do it. And I I'll tell them that. I'm like, you know, like I'm if I'm gonna do dovetail bolsters, I'm gonna do it right. Uh, but because of that, it's gonna take me a little while longer, and so you're gonna pay a little upcharge for it. But other than that, you know, that they're done when they're done and they're gonna be done correctly.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

That's right. Well, it's it's a higher uh, you know, it's a it's a higher skill level. I'll just be blunt about it. Uh you can you can make a cut out a knife, slap some handles on it, and grind them evenly, and then put them on the knife and uh polish your fronts and you know, in no time. But making those bolsters, whether they're soldered on or pinned on, is a a skill. It's it's a it's a time consuming, and it takes a lot of control and accuracy. And you know, um there's there's a lot of little micro steps I know that uh I probably didn't cover in that video. That that for example, when when I I use a one-eighth pin to press in the material, and I use a reamer, a one-eighth reamer that's tapered, but when I ream that hole, I'll only let the point of that reamer touch the you know the outside when it goes through. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't peek through. That way when I put the pen in there, the pen is like almost friction fit. And if it's loose, and you could get, you know, you can wild that thing wobbles a little bit and you press it on, you're done. And that's but I I there's some other things I do to prevent that as well, but I try to do that with that's just little micro tips and techniques that that uh that I've just on my own learned over the years. And if you if those dovetails are off just a uh five thousandths, you can see them from here, you know, six foot away. And it doesn't take much to throw that off. And so it's really uh it it'll put the sweat on your brow when you go to press them on. You know that. Especially, you know, if you're making a knife with that has small, they're not very wide, most of mine are three-quarters wide on on say skinning knives, and if they're if they're a half inch wide, you don't have much room to hold everything and uh you know get your pens in without causing some kind of uh bulging and that sort of thing. And uh I I used to solder this stuff on you. I started out soldering. Actually, I started out brazing, and it was with brass. And I learned that from a book, and I'm not even gonna tell you which book it was because it sent me down a terrible rabbit hole. And uh, it's a very popular maker and book, and he's he's he's old now, but whatever. Um, he makes great stuff, but it was the capital that said, throw that crop away, man. You know, their Cajun friend, throw that into garbage, let me show you how to do that. So that's what I did. I threw it in garbage. Well, I still have the book, and um um I I have a lot of those old books, but uh, some of them I said eyebrow raising, but I think a lot of that was like what we were talking about a while ago, sending you down a rabbit hole intentionally. But um imagine brazing a guard on, or you know, I'm talking brazing, not soldering. Uh the temperatures you're dealing with and trying to keep from losing your temper in your knife. Uh it's just it's just crazy stuff. But I I did a few of them. I still have some of those knives. Not a one of them was ever sold, or did I try to, but um anyway, you learn through all those life experiences and and little tips and tricks and things like that. And uh I'm I'm just glad that um uh somebody like yourself picked up something from one of my videos, it means that um it helped somebody and it's kind of it's a rewarding thing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 55:25

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I I don't know why I did it to myself, but um I've I've always uh been drawn to smaller, uh what some might call uh daintier knives. Uh some people say lady knives or whatever, but you know, um I spent a long time in hunting and fishing, uh going out and just uh I I'll go f trout fishing a lot uh back up in the mountains and everything, or hills in this case. Um and when you take in a lot of extra gear with you, it just it it just makes you weigh a lot. And so, you know, in the in that true fashion of when like ounces or pounds, um I would almost never carry um a whole lot of gear with me. I'd carry a fishing pole, I'd carry a pocket full of uh hooks, and I carry a pocket that had a little cup with worms in it or can, right? And um and when I was uh when I was doing any type of cleaning or anything like that on game or or fish or whatever, I didn't need a super big knife. I definitely didn't need like a uh an eight or nine inch fillet knife. And um, you know, so small was always uh it made a lot of sense to me. And even still uh doing like uh uh white tail hunting and things like that, um I I was able to clean a lot of game with a pocket knife, and I saw uh some uh old timers use uh utility knives, you know, with the disposable blades and and clean an entire deer. And so I I knew that big knives were not necessarily necessary, um, but I personally liked small uh fixed blades and whatnot because or or pocket knives because I could do a lot with a a little bit of real estate on the blade. And uh get into dovetail bolsters with, you know, you're talking about less than a half an inch um on that on them, uh getting two pins to sit in there and getting it to not uh move and you to you know notice all the uh geometrical shifts and stuff was a real pain. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I got the uh bolster uh the pins too close to where the dovetail was supposed to sit, and then it screwed up my entire placement on putting the handles on, or maybe I blew through the uh the uh pinholes or whatever when I was trying to uh grind everything down. And those are a lot of lessons that you just have to um like you have a very great uh base of information, but it's not foolproof, and you you gotta be able to suss that out for yourself. Like I had to make a lot of adjustments to make sure it worked, not only for my tooling and the way that I think about things, but also the canvas that I was working on, which are just smaller knives. And um I can't honestly say that it got easier when I put it on bigger knives. Um it just changed the dynamic on how I have to do things. But that's kind of the the way that information goes. Like brazen things might have made sense to that one knife maker, or might it might have been a ruse. But um but information you have to take it at its value, and then you have to be able to uh fit it to what makes sense for you and how you can do things in your shop with the tooling and stuff you have. And um it's you know, if if something requires a you know five thousand pieces, uh five thousand dollar piece of equipment to do that thing, then and you just go out and buy expecting to do it. That's not that's not the entire circle of like what's required to to apply that piece of knowledge, it takes you first.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

That's right. That's what it's all about. Like I was saying earlier about the little micro things you change. There's so many micro tips and techniques that you do that you just can't cover everything, and that's constantly evolving. You know, I see uh makers, old makers making things today, doing things that that they didn't do 20 years ago is totally different. And um because they they just evolve, and a lot of that for me is market, you know, what the what the people want. And a lot of you know the the knives I make is what people want and they're what they're asking for. And what I actually use and what they want is two different things in many cases. For example, you just mentioned it um uh for years, and I I make them. You've probably seen my uh frame locks. Uh I make a uh clip point frame lock, and I have cleaned dozens of deer with a three-inch bladed frame lock and folders just like that. To me, a three, three and a half inch blade is all I need, you know, in just any wide, you can skin a buffalo with it. It's uh you don't have to have a buoy to dress game. And now a lot of the fish we clean here, a lot of them, you know, bull reds and things like that. Yeah, bigger fillet knife. Um I but I use a uh a small knife for a lot of fish cleaning. I'm talking a four-inch blade that is um a matter of fact, I just made some. I'm I'm starting to move some of those, sell some of those, but personally I've had that, you know, that's my style, my my personal style. And you know, people look at it like, what the heck is that? It looks like a very, very sharp filet knife. And uh, but it's it can work as an EDC or whatever, but it's uh it's just practical for me. And you you don't have to have a um chopping axe or a buoy knife to uh skin game, and you know they're nice if you you know doing camp work and uh doing hiking and packing and things like that. If you need to to trim a limb, you know, I'm not a bushcrafter per se. I have been lost in the swamp for more than one day at a time and survived just fine without a scandy ground knife, uh just using a uh pocket knife, you know. I but I wasn't spending time making furniture either. I was spending time surviving, actually surviving. You know, I wasn't carving chairs and crap, I was you know, skinning game, you know. I've been lost with my brother, I've been lost by myself, my my we we we focused on uh food, water, and shelter. And um when we were lost, and and it's not a fun thing, and it's no you you you're not in a show or a game. It is, you know, I no nobody knows where you're at. I mean, I've been lost 15 miles in the middle of the Chafala swamp. And if you know how big that place is, it's several hundred thousand acres big, it's probably a million acres, I don't know. It's huge, and um being 15 miles from the place you put in at and lost, um, and and then you know that to the point where their search parties looking for you, and I'm focusing on the the very essential things, not not being necessarily comfortable, but just having something to drink and eat and stay dry. And having an a clip point frame lock done just fine for all of that, you know. Um but yeah I I I I like big knives. My one of my favorites is a peringue and a machete. And I just made a peringue a while back for the for my YouTube channel, and I love uh poring. Uh it's a great tool in the swamp, you know, for for blazing a trail, but you could you could skin a squirrel with it if you had to.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:06

Yeah, I think I think some people would uh be aghast to know that I I've cleaned more game with this little S30V Kershaw um uh liner lock that I have. I think I maybe it was about eight eight or so years ago I bought it, and uh it was under $100. And the thing the thing that I like about it is it's light, and because of the heat treat on the steel, it holds an edge real well, and that is all I need. Um I carry that thing around everywhere. Uh, but it has has been all over. It's uh clean pronghorns and uh and deer and and hog and all sorts of stuff. I've even you know taken it trout fishing and everything like that, too. And um uh i I think that a personal preference on a knife, like what what you actually carry and what the market is looking for are two different things. And that's something that's really difficult to distinguish when you're making a business and everything, because um sometimes like what I look for in a knife is not always um what I make as a maker because my business and what sells knives is a little bit different than what I personally use. But I will always try to incorporate those things uh that I find the most valuable, like uh a really good heat treat, great uh you know, grind geometry on the bevels and whatnot, um the weight distribution and and and weight itself are a big thing, how ergonomic it feels. All of those are personal preferences that go into my knives. It doesn't matter whether it's a you know it would be a drop point hunter or a bird and trout or you know, something a little bit larger or smaller. Um it doesn't matter what the pattern itself is necessarily, but the aesthetic, those things that I look for are really kind of like what um I I am part into the to the knife, and that's based on my experiences.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

That's right, and that's that's what everybody should do. Um hopefully they have some experiences to do that with because if you don't have something to fall on, you know, how do you know what works and what don't? I mean, from from just putting a knife in your hand and feeling it, and is it comfortable? I see a lot of knives that I'm like, man, that would give me a blister in 10 minutes. It's got these grooves and things all over. I can't understand that, you know. Like, especially a camp knife, it needs to be comfortable and not not be have hot spots on it. And that's my personal preference. So when I make a knife, I try to, you know, for a customer, I'm I'm gonna give them something that it feels comfortable in my hand and and uses comfortably in my hand. And I I don't want to give them something unless they want to put it on a wall and they specifically say, you know, you know, do this to it. And that's kind of rare. I d I made a fantasy knife a while back. I think you it it was it's on my channel, it's part of the YouTube challenge. And um, you know, it it's a zombie killer or whatever you want to call it. So it's a uh mosaic pattern, uh um and just some screwball-looking recurved knife, and uh, you know, something that you I wouldn't wouldn't get caught with, uh, but it looks cool, and uh but somebody, a collector wanted that knife, you know, and I sold it to him and um and it's hanging on his wall. It's it's cool, definitely cool, just not something dysfunctional. And for 99% of the people that buy from me, they want, you know, they're they're buying functional knives, and believe it or not, buying a lot of folks buy mosaic knives or or just you know random Damascus pattern knives, and they hunt with them, and and that's cool. You keep you take care of them, they and you can dress deer with them. I I've got one that I've had my personal Damascus knife. I've got one, and I have cleaned several deer. Last year I cleaned three deer with it, and it is spotless. But I as soon as I get done with it, I wipe it down, put a little oil on it, and put it away. And uh, but it performs just fine, just as good as my monosteel blades do. So they definitely functional. That's what you that's what I want to give to the customer. You make it pretty and functional.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:35

Yeah, and I you know there there's lots of uh uh collectors of knives or uh those who will use them, you know. They don't necessarily think about um using them as as survival knives. It's mostly like this is a pretty box cut knife, I can open up all my Amazon groceries and whatever else I'm gonna do. And and you know, I that that's not a a fault or anything like that. We live in a society where uh there's lots of stuff that is uh uh factory to table instead of farm or farm or uh out out back to uh table. But um I I for a knife maker to be able to have the experience of what what those like those core competencies in a knife are supposed to be, um, I think is very valuable. And um, you know, because being out in the middle of nowhere, um, you know, I spent some time on like the Alizambayou and Angelina Rivers and stuff stuff out East Texas and forests where it's you know you know 20, 30,000 acres and you don't know where you're going, and out in the mountains where uh you know the elements will get you and whatnot. Like all of that uh gives you a really great perspective on the fact that you could be a mile away and dead somewhere because nobody can find you. And it really is is as simple as if you if your time is out and you don't get to uh civilization or whatever, uh the elements can can't get you. And the the the difference between those who survive and those who don't sometimes is just uh a matter of uh either great preparedness and uh fortitude or luck. It sometimes it's it just comes down to uh you don't really know. It's the same way with swimmers drown all the time. There could be a really great swimmer and they're in the water and something happens and they drown. And I I would prefer, at least when I'm thinking about my knives, is uh what would the worst case scenario be for this thing that I'm about about to send out. And if I feel confident that I would put my own life uh on the line with this thing in my hand, then I'd feel just as confident with somebody else using it too.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

And you see that's exactly right. And it I feel like um it's you're putting your reputation on the line ever every time you send one out. You want to put that you know, best quality you can. And it it a lot of these knives are expensive too. I mean, they they can be very expensive, but you know, I I carry my own knives. I I I have a lot of I've got boxes of factory knives, and you mentioned one a while ago that I I've I think I have that same knife that was given to me years ago for a birthday, a few years ago. Um I love good good factory knives that I like to carry my own knives because I like to use them and and see how they perform. One of the you know that uh clip point I have also have a drop point frame lock. And I I still carry that knife just about everywhere it goes, it's a prototype that I carry. And I have done everything you can name, you know, as an electrician, skinning wire, you name it, uh stripping wire, uh, to skinning rabbits with that knife. And and uh, you know, it's a it's a hollow ground knife too. Um the uh I I do both flat and hollows on those blades, depends on what customers want, but um, you know, it performed just fine, and but I like to use my own knives and see how they perform because I can make changes to them, things I don't like, and and that particular knife I did make changes to it. Um and uh even the clip point that I make has had several revisions to it. Um matter of fact, Steve Schwarzer has my clip point prototype. Um we were doing some horse trading at the at Blade Show a couple years ago, and he won my uh that's all I had on me. I had to give it to him. But um I've made several changes based on using them. And and whether it's my straight knives, folders, or whatever. Um I I I believe in using them and using your experiences with them. And a lot of people don't realize that that makers that that make knives have have experience with knives. And they the choices they make on their designs and that sort of thing are based on the experience. A lot of people don't realize that. And uh you can tell by their comments, like you're just an idiot. You know, they'll say things and like, you know, I didn't fall off the wagon yesterday, my friend. But um, you know, I've used you know every kind of knife you can think of in every kind of situation, except that well, actually, I have been in a knife fight, actual one, and I didn't come out on the good end. But uh you you never will in um in any kind of uh situation like that. It's not a uh it's not Hollywood in that world. But uh using knives and the experience of using them teaches you a lot about how to make them and what you want, and that whether you're a carpenter or whatever, a builder or you name it, uh you you learn from experience and what what works and what don't work. It should.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:12

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And I mean, and I I think that that's uh something that you know ra Rambo knives, uh A. G. Russell, there's a video out there on YouTube that people can watch where A. G. Russell's talking about the Rambo uh styled knives and the serrations, and he he just said it's it's absolutely idiotic, right? Like why would you want a saw on the back of a blade? It's almost useless. And I I've had people that a have asked for serrations or uh saw teeth on the back of their blades before, and I I'll turn them down uh because I don't find it very practical. I mean I've I used knives like that before to see how well they cut and whatnot, and there's some things that are even in the the scope of you know normal normal-looking knives that are still kind of fantasy, and it's the difference between um big knives versus small knives, you know, hand-forged knives versus stock removal knives, it's uh you know, it's uh fighting knives versus utility knives. Like some people get really hung up on a knife being made uh for a very, very specific purpose. And anything outside of that very narrow view means that that knife is not applicable. But if you've seen somebody skin and deer with a box cutter, you could tell the box cutter is also used for making like opening up boxes or you know, skin and deer, or if you got into a knife fight, I mean terrorists have used those before. I mean, it's there's a lot of utility in knives that goes outside of this concept of what it was originally made for. And I um it it really interests me some of the psychological side of of a knife because when you kind of start getting into those groups of uh people who think a knife is a s uh you know has a certain utility within that um um area of use, then you start getting real campy or tribal on it. And um I'm I'm a lot more open-minded than that. I can use a knife, I could use a sh uh a chef knife to to do a lot of stuff too that you know you probably cringe at sometimes, but I've used chef knives to uh uh clean game before and uh open up boxes before and all sorts of stuff. So I mean it's just kind of like in the in the eye of the beholder, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

Well, yeah, man. Uh um you know, going back to my my history of of making knives and wanting to make knives and getting into knife making and my my ability or inability to stay still in life. Uh when I was about 14 years old, I I went down the martial arts trail. And um but it was at the when I started making knives, the the two wasn't together. But it was later on I started training in Kali uh through Jeet Kondo. I don't know if you ever heard of that, but that is uh the from from Bruce Lee's uh philosophy. And I trained with some of his students. I was an um apprentice under Ted Wong, who was his last private student, but I I through Dan in Osanto, which was his Los Angeles uh protege, um, that he actually put in charge of his school in Los Angeles, is where I I uh was introduced to Kali, which is a Filipino martial art. And so so during that period of my martial arts training, I started delving off into the uh the knife world, and because of the the screma, cali and arness arts and the stick and dagger, so I did a lot of training with uh stick and dagger and and knife fighting, and uh, you know, through uh pint jacks a lot. And uh, you know, I told you my parang is a one the parang is one of my favorite uh tools in the field, but it was used, it was made made as a tool, but it was used as a weapon a lot in uh in in that world, Indonesian world. But um I found that I, you know, I started making wanting to make knives that were quote tactical. And um, but I found through through the years that um it didn't matter so much about the the knife that if it was sharp and pointy, it was tactical. And um, yeah, there's there's certain elements and things, you know, with that you're using the knife for, say uh uh a field guide, a seal, or somebody's digging mines, and you know, there's things like that, but as far as uh self-defense, there are certain things, design elements that need to be there, but um in real life situations, um a pencil is a very tactical object. It's um it's deadly, and if it's used properly. Um but I found that my life, my knife making starts started paralleling with my martial arts training, and and uh so a lot of my older knives were uh influenced with the the Indonesian Asian styles and things like that. Of course, I was still making hunting and fishing knives, but I've I've got a variety of things like that. I never went off into the Japanese culture of knife making like katanas and stuff like that. I made a few tantos and matter of fact, I'm building a tanto right now for the YouTube samurai challenge. And it's not a traditional, but it's it's gonna be close. It's a go-mi uh tanto. But it anyway, it's it's crazy how all of those things influence your your knife making, and um that's one that certainly did. And and I I found that a a frame lock with about a three and a half inch blade was very practical and tactical for for the years of training that I did in knife defense, and uh the usability and and the speed and functionality of that knife was perfect for that. And um even the small EDC straight blade that I um that I'm starting to push now is another version of that with a different twist, you know. But uh you can also open boxes with it.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:36

Yeah. Well, um my martial arts experience started when I was young. I don't my parents, I guess, put us uh I'm one of eight kids, so uh my parents tried to find s some things to do with us to keep us from fighting each other. Um and I I started in the school of Japanese um um I I don't know what Shitoryo is is actually considered, but it's an Okinawan style of uh martial arts. And um and like uh I'm trying to think here, like Sh Shotokan and a few others are are like stem from that uh style of of sparring and and using momentum and things like that to uh mostly get out of a situation where you're fighting. Like uh the the the foundation of what we learned uh when I was uh uh doing shooteryo was um try not to get into fights in the first place. And then you won't have to you won't have to worry about what whether you can fight or not. But once you once you get down the discipline of trying not to get into fights in the first place, then it's like how do you use body motion and things if you don't have a weapon, and then it's it progresses into uh you know sparring and then uh using weaponry. Exactly. And and I've always thought a lot about that. Like uh I I prefer not getting into knife fights. Um I don't really like the idea of getting stabbed and poked and sliced up and whatnot. There's a lot of uh arteries that could end your day real quick. Um but um but the uh the concept, yeah, is the same. Like I I I've always thought about that. Like if if I make a knife um and it needs to be used in a uh survival situation, regardless of whether that's a rogue animal of some sort, um whether it's a life and death type of survival situation outdoors, or whether you're getting into a some type of fight, is it something that you can use? And I've always thought that like every single one of my knives have an EDC component to them. So whether you're opening a box or you have to get into a fight, or whether you're you know skin and game, those are all like c components of what I think about. But in all that does come back full circle into um this martial arts style that I learned where it's like don't don't put yourself in a situation where you have to use something and prepare for those uh circumstances if they should uh come around. And um and so that that's that's my focus with knives. I'm I I think that the that that's really kind of an element that I do focus on, even though it's subliminal a lot. Um but the the the at least the the concept of martial arts I think really does um um help in in trying to frame what is practical and what's not, what is useful in what scenarios and uh does give you um the mindset of contingency, which I think is important.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:36

That's right. Well, it's just like any, you know, the the the training I did, you know, when I started out, I actually did uh trained in Chatokan for a little while, very brief period, but my interest um you know waned off, and then I I you know got interested into the uh Jeekun Do world, and mainly because of the five ranges of combat, and um, you know, one of them being grappling, and uh, you know, which was kind of unheard of in those days, which in any I've been in many scuffles and they always end up on the ground, pretty much 98% of them. And that's what attracted me. Um, but then there's also the element of um weapons, and especially today, everybody carries weapons, and but I always you know looked at even even the training and even the the the arts of Kali and the Pinjak Salat, and they're all you know they're more defensive until you have to go into offense, but you're you're living in a defensive world. So you one of the things you would do, say in Kali is is you would defang the snake, and those are the extremities, the very the hands, the fingers. Um and and so you're defending, not not being the aggressor, but defending. And you you're not you know, you walk out the door every day, you're not uh planning on having this confrontation in life, and and and I've I've been there and it wasn't it wasn't my fault, it wasn't looked for, it wasn't you know planned. Fortunately, I I came out of it okay and in both situations, but one situation, and this was from my training, was having a gun put in my face, and and through my training, I know this what it was. It was being able to talk the perpetrator out of shooting me between the eyes, and um talking down, and just using psychology, which is one of the principles of Jeepundo. And uh, it's the art of fighting without fighting, and um and you know, using using psychology as a weapon to defend yourself, and on weapons itself are secondary. You gotta use your mind to stay out of trouble for one, and then but if it jumps on you, you gotta you gotta uh do what you can to survive, and and having a practical tool that'll help, whether it be a knife or a gun or whatever, uh, is a plus in my book. So if it's an ink pen or pencil, you name it.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:28

Yeah, well, um uh one of my favorite movies is Groy Gross Point Blank um with Cusack, and he uses a fountain pen.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:39

That's a good movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:40

Well, I I can tell you, um you go to any prison and there's nothing but round, sharp, pointy objects when it comes to shanks. They're um whether it's an ink pen, you you can't, you know, having something that pierces the body, you know, to reach a vital area, or even just cause trauma, it is all that's needed, whether it's an ink pen or a machete. I mean, it's uh the you get you get poked pretty good, pretty deep with something like that, and uh it's it's it's more it's psychological as well, and it's part of the trauma. It's it's uh I've been stabbed, and you you may not know it at the moment, but you will a few minutes later. Um it's it's like a person that's being you know shot with a 22. They may not feel it or know it at the moment, but it's gonna you know it's not gonna take long. It's it's very damaging.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:44

Um even the uh the porcupine uh with its needly uh um quills could uh uh thwart a lion.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:53

So yeah. Yep. Well, um I mean it doesn't take much to uh to distract you, um especially when the appearance of blood uh comes into play. It's very psychological.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:10

Yeah, well, kind of on that note, you know, there's there's a lot of things I think uh about knives that are very philosophical. And there's there's so many things about like the the mechanisms of knives, like um, you know, is is this thing uh does it look the best that I think it can? Am I selling knives? Um do people like me? Uh that that also distract you from being able to just um stay the course and perfect yourself, right? And then this kind of like balance of um talking about survival and um and uh you know defensiveness and offensiveness and knives, I think that we get really hung up sometimes um on uh the approval rating of other people. I I I hope that in some ways uh when people think about like conversations like this, it spurs them on to uh to maybe think a little bit less about um uh having fans uh in s in some ways or having um uh you know groupies and instead just like keeping your head down and working on your craft because like at the end of the day, like all these things come out, like your your value systems, uh your experiences and things uh like that that formulate what it is that you think about in knives when you're making them, it all comes out kind of in the wash. Um and and if you focus on that versus trying to focus on um the pomp and circumstance of knives, I think that that's a better route to go down because what what you're producing um you know is a a direct reflection of you and your experiences.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:53

So much, man. It's it's it's the truth. And and I see a I you know, for years I didn't um going back to the disputes I was talking about between the two organizations and not seeing any of that today, what's disheartening is when you see individuals in social media doing that. It's like it's like something new to them. It's like, man, this is this is old arguments. Why are you why are you bringing this back up again? You know, there's a um you'll see folks online. It's uh I I'm not a traditional knife maker in a sense or bladesmith. Like I said, I make I do stock removal only and forge knives, but there's stock removal in every bit of it. Um, you know, unless you sharpen it on a rock after you get through forging it out, it's stock removal. And then it's still stock removal. But I see a lot of that there's there's a lot of young makers that are that are it's not a lot, it's a few that I see that's it's developing this snobbery. And man, I I just hope that that can be discouraged because it's not healthy, you know, for the community. Um you know, help each other. A knife is a knife, and and like I tell people, you go you when you buy a bar of steel to make your knife from, whether you forge it or cut it out, it's already forged from the factory. It's either coal forged or hot rolled, uh, coal rolled or hot rolled. That's forged. It comes annealed, ready to go. Now, when when you forge it, then you need to do some thermal cycling and fix all that crap that you disoriented in that steel and uh do your quench and tempering. But uh there's nothing wrong with with the the either or. And and I just don't understand why you got some of that happening in the community. And I just hope it doesn't roll over and like it did back in the past. I don't see that, and I'm I'm glad to see that because uh you got some great makers in both styles, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:14

Yeah, well, I I I think that there's a lot uh more uh knowledge transfer uh that goes on amongst makers now where you know the the the difference if you if we're talking about blade steels, um the difference between um S30V and uh I don't know some like CPM 154, you know, there there are some differences. But the felt difference to the end user is really kind of marginal. And some people might like hear that and and gasp, but really it kind of comes down to a um 440c. Um nothing wrong with it. I mean there are there are things that um it might not be the best for, but it but it largely doesn't matter. I mean, I've seen some really, really cheap uh uh knives that don't hold an edge really well, but they still stab the same way. Uh they'll cut, they just won't cut as long. Um and there's all this like art like in in knife collecting and knife use in some ways, there's a lot of artificial mechanisms uh for uh I guess gauging quality, um, like how many times you can cut a rope with something, or it does it pass a paper test or whatever. There's uh plenty of uh grinds that I've seen from a lot of different makers that if you held it up to a piece of paper to cut it, it wouldn't. But I can guarantee you it'll break down one or two elk without need needing to be stropped. And it's it all comes down to the uh the geometry for the purpose and and and and so on. So I guess in some ways, if the argument comes from the end user, it's kind of like opinion is like a butthole. Um everyone has one and they stink, right? But if if it's coming from the makers, um I think that that's um uh an education thing because the a maker that perpetuates a myth um is is either doing it because they're trying to um differentiate themselves or um or they're not embracing like what we know collectively to be true or you know something like that. And uh those are ones that just need to mature. Um but uh for everyone else, like if a customer wants S30V and they're willing to pay for the knife and they're like, okay, you use S30V, I'll I'll buy a knife from you, then okay, I'll but I'll sell it to you. Um if they want some like special um magic steel that I don't uh you know care for too much, then I might not work with it. I mean, if something takes too long to do a hand finish on, or if they're looking for something super expensive that they don't want to pay for, things like that. I mean, I'll let I'll let my um kind of where I'm at and what I want to do dictate uh whether I'll work with it or not. But uh another maker can't really necessarily convince me uh that one thing is better than the other because uh you know we do luckily have collective knowledge that we can fall back on and kind of um acts as the ballast for us in being cordial and uh and you know a community of makers at least that aren't trying to fight over stupid stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:25

Right. You you're hitting the nail on the head. It's it's about education and maturity, it's it's it's uh experience. And you know, I I I like you say I know better. Um you can't convince me because I I just know better. Uh the experience has told me, shown me. And and I'll tell you that uh uh Larry Thomas is my hero because he has he has put the stuff out there and has proven through science, you know, what a lot of us have been saying for many years, dispelling these crazy myths, even things things he don't cover, like quenching magnetic north and edge packing. And I'm talking about edge packing on high carbon steel, not brass and bronze, and um just you know, when you what what all happens when you heat treat a knife and what happens to those carbides and how they're reset and all of that packing you did is going to go away as soon as you thermocycle it and quench it and temper it. I mean it's it's it's really common sense, but I'm I'm just glad that you got somebody out there like that who is uh the son of a legend who became a metallurgist and is putting it out there and giving it to the community. Um I I love it. And you would think that people would you know educate themselves and and learn some of that, but I I really like to use a variety of steels, but I do stick to three or four different ones primarily. And um, you know, it it like you said, most end users don't really see the difference in in particular steels uh in day-to-day. Uh when I did my performance test, and you know how that test is done for the ABS Journalman and Mastersmith test as far as the performance proportion. And uh, you know, you gotta cut a free-hanging one-inch rope and then chop a two by four and a half twice, and then it has to shave, and then it has to take a 90-degree bend, which is really a heat treating technique. But the the point is if that if I can take a piece of 1084, which is what I use, which is the basic kind of a very forgiving steel, and do all of that with it, and it still performs after you know all of that abuse, I mean you you're really not gonna see much difference unless you're, you know, it that knife's made, that performance knife is made to do that. It's made to chop and so forth. But um, I can make knives all day long with 1084 and they perform just fine. They'll hold edge and and uh and do their job. And it it comes down to your big majority of it is edge geometry. I take my edges down, most all of them are 20 or less, 20,000th or less on the edge. And if you do that, and then put your secondary based on what it's going to be used for, and for that particular knife, it was a convex right on the secondary. And um you you can't beat it. It performed just fine. Just your basic cheap steel, high carbon steel.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:48

Yeah. No, I uh I I had Laren on quite a few episodes ago um because I want to talk to him about his new new book uh about knife steel and history. Um I thought that that was really um it was good because Laren largely self um self-researched all of it. And I know that there's there are some um inconsistencies on timelines or things, but he's uh he's building all of that up off of um a lot of anecdotal information because there wasn't either people were doing stuff at the same time or it wasn't really well documented, and he and some people are still not alive, and uh other people are like, well, they were the first to uh invent it, and that might not necessarily be the case. But his his mind for being able to stitch together the like where we came from uh in early civilization up to now where we have just incredible knowledge sets around different steels and everything, to me is indispensable. And I mean he's told me more times than I can count that this that's perpetuating a myth. Like if I say something and he catches it, he'll be like, that's perpetuating a myth. And uh I I appreciate it because he's um very willing to at least differentiate what he uh knows to be true versus um conjecture. Um but but I I fully agree. A well-heat-treated, high-quality knife um you know, is just that. And that's I think what everybody should be looking for first. Not not some wizardry, you know, that's a difference between forging or stock removal or whatever, but you know, looking at the intrinsic quality of you know, was it heat-treated well? You know, I almost never get questions from people who are using my knives about heat treat. It's it's rare even that they'll ask about what the rock wall hardness is or how it's being ground or anything. Those are things that I feel compelled to talk about, but an end user almost never asks those questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:51

Well, no, I I hardly get those any more I used to, but I it's most of the I have a lot of repeat clients and a lot of collectors, but um there it is you eventually people will know your your work, they know your knives, and it it's kind of mute. But yeah, I I enjoy that too. That's why I I shoot a lot of videos showing the process and explaining what I'm doing and uh at least what I can with a limited amount of time to in a in a video. Um and you know, it's just I'm not a pro at anything, but I I try to follow procedures and and practices that that are uh well established, you know. There's some there's a lot of things that we that we're doing today that are different, and um especially quench mediums, you know, and that's that's one of the things that we're talking about, Dr. Lairn, you know, he he he's he's got it out there and and when it comes to you know your certain engineered quenching holes, a lot of people using stuff that that's you're not getting the best performance out of your heat treat by using a mediocre quench medium. Um yes, you know, so there's a lot of I've got a book, I'm sitting here looking at it on my shelf over there from the 80s, you know, of this concoction to quench your knife in. Yeah, it gets it hard, but now you can there's there's engineered oils for the specific uh series of steels, and that's what I would prefer to use. Why not? Because you you can get them you can maximize the performance, and uh, and your customer will appreciate that. It'll go a long way.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:41

Yeah, that's something um when I was talking with Steve Schwarzer about um like cross cross-disciplinary knowledge, right? Like taking one um area of expertise and using it another. Like you you're a good example of that because you have this passion for uh videography and um you know setting a a visual narrative and things like that, and you incorporate that into your videos, right? And um heat treating mediums has been around for a long time because industrially um if anything was heat treated, they had to uh find the best way to quench it. And the rock like my Rockwell harness tester is probably from the 50s, and I'm sure that it tested um a lot of different steels uh in a manufacturing setting because those were the specifications that they had to follow. Um but I know lots of people um who have uh not really cared so much about heat treating. Like they'll say, well, if it skates a file, it's fine. And I that doesn't really work for me. Um I I like to be able to test it and understand what its rock well is. I like to be able to understand the metallurgy of it and what grain structure looks like because you know the only way to find out whether you did something right is to destroy it, basically, and check those things out. And eventually you get good at um following the recipes enough to get to a place where you know that what's happening inside of that steel is not catastrophic to its use. Um but yeah, there's l so many areas where if you have the knowledge in one specific type of discipline, it uh tra it it transfers very well over into the arts and knife making and and other things like that. And so I I like to uh encourage people not to get so stuck up on just doing knives, um, that understanding the world around you is is a very important thing too. Like I mean, for instance, like when I'm looking at uh some of your frame locks and whatnot, anodizing titanium and whatnot is a is uh another complete avenue uh of uh you know uh chemical and electric um um um modification of of of oxides on a surface that you need to be aware of if you want to be able to perform those certain types of things, like whether you're using heat anodization or electrical or whatever, there's an entire like sub-genre of uh embellishments and things you can do to your blades if you understand some about electricity, some about heat, some about the metal that you're using, and and can tie all those things in together.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:17

Yep, that's a that's exactly right. You're just you're but like you said, it's a continual learning process. I mean, I am I have never engraved anything. I've done some wire inlay, and and now I'm I'm trying to get off into the engraving world because I'd really like to learn it. But it is like it is to be good at it, it takes years of of practice and develop skill development. And and um while I want to do it, I'm just gonna, you know, I'll be tinkering around with it. But I've got a lot of people or a few people that have really impressed me and inspired me. Uh, you take Jerry Fisk, Master Smith Jerry Fisk, and he does his own engraving now. He's not been engraving that long, and his stuff looks beautiful. And um that that's really inspiring and impressive, you know. When you see somebody that can that can pick it up and go with it, it's just all about putting your mind to it. But it is a for me, it's a always trying to learn something new and and uh stay relevant and stay fresh, don't get stagnant, because you'll you'll find at least I do that you make a lot of the same things over and over and over, and you're you're missing out on things, uh on growing, you know. And um that's a lot of the problems with doing customs.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:48

Yeah, no, I I couldn't agree more. I mean, I I think that that's uh that's a great point, uh, is just not allowing yourself to stagnate and to um go far like long enough of doing the same thing where you start building this confirmation bias. Like this is this is the way that I've always done it, and it's the only way to do it. Um that there's the more I learn, the more I realize I know nothing. And um and the more I learn though, the the more deeply entrenched in this world of knives I become. I mean, the the podcast was like me wanting to be able to talk to people like you and to have conversations like this about just you know all the different components, like what what makes up knives? It's well it's not yeah, sure, it's the knife that makes up the knife world, but it's really more than that. It's it's getting lost in the swamp for a few days. It's um it's uh working in manufacturing or something like that and and seeing other people make knives, it's being in World War II and seeing all the uh theater knives and everything like that that are around. It's um you know, it's it's exposure through magazines and everything. Like those stories are like the driving forces for so many lives in knives, and that to me is super interesting. And who would have thought um in me just kind of like trying to scratch the surface of them, what what really kind of makes this knife thing what it is, have I um really realized that um I I don't know that I'll ever know. Um, but it's great to have conversations like this and talk about things because like even in the scope of what we've talked about, I've uh taken a lot of inspiration and a lot of things that you know I'm gonna have to chew on for a while and see like how can I incorporate that mentality into what I do on a day day day-to-day basis.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:39

Yes, sir. I agree with you. It's a it's a it's a thing that you that I wake up with every day is um what am what am I gonna do that's gonna make it easier, better, and and um you know, it's things you have to weigh out in life with anything you do, and and knife making is just one of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:04

I totally agree. Well, I know that you got lots of shop stuff to do, and um I really I I really appreciate the time that you spent uh sitting with me and and talking about everything that we have. Um I hope that the uh you know listeners obviously get something out of that, and I'll make sure to post up all your social media and website contacts and things like that. But you know, if there's ever a situation where um you need anything from me, um I'm not that far away. Um and I again it's been a humongous honor to talk to you after all this time of using your materials online to educate myself on knives.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:40

Wow, man, I appreciate that. You don't know what that means, and uh I appreciate you allowing me to come on. I really enjoy it, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:47

Yes, sir. It's uh absolutely my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:50

Yes, sir. Well, I hope you uh get feeling better. I know you were under the weather, and um we'll we'll uh be talking later, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:58

Yes, sir. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:00

All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:03

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Good Old Blades Podcast. Remember that you are loved and God bless.