E64: Let’s talk about Tết, baby — has Vietnam’s biggest holiday changed forever?

Tết has always been Vietnam’s most important moment of the year — culturally, emotionally, and commercially. For some categories, it can account for up to 40–45% of annual sales. But something feels different now.

In this episode of You Don’t Know Vietnam, Ian Paynton sits down with Cimigo's Richard Burrage, a long-time Vietnam resident and one of the country’s most experienced consumer insight leaders, to unpack how Tết is changing — and why many brands and marketers haven’t caught up.

Drawing on nationwide consumer research and focus groups, Richard explains why Vietnam is spending differently, gifting less, celebrating more quietly, and approaching Tết with a very different mindset.

For senior leaders looking beyond the hype, this episode offers a grounded, on-the-ground view of cultural change — and why understanding the “new Tết” may be critical to getting Vietnam right.

If you enjoy this conversation or think someone in your network could find value in it, please share it and hit follow to get notified when the next episode drops.

This podcast is brought to you by We Create Content, the content marketing agency that builds audiences for global brands in Vietnam. You can follow our host, Ian Paynton, on LinkedIn, and follow the podcast on Instagram, TikTok and X. 

A special thanks to DJ Jase at The Beats Saigon for the soundtrack, and to YOU for listening. 

Transcript

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:00:00 to 00:00:00

Richard oi.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:00:01 to 00:00:02

Yes, Ian. Nice to see you.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:00:03 to 00:00:05

Nice to see you. Welcome to You Don't Know Vietnam.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:00:05 to 00:00:08

Thank you very much. I I I need to know more.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:00:08 to 00:00:17

Don't we, Ors? You know, it's funny. We're seeing each other for only the second time now, and I don't know how that's happened considering we both been here so long. You've been here 28 years.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:00:18 to 00:00:23

28 years, and I'm still learning, Ian, for us to meet. Yeah. No. 28 years. It's been a great journey.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:00:23 to 00:00:28

It's been a lot of change as you can imagine, and it's been some some to observe.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:00:28 to 00:00:33

If you could describe that change in just a couple of sentences, how do you think you'd do it?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:00:35 to 00:01:04

I would say the change has been driven by a really unique dynamic and buzz that makes people fall in love with Vietnam. And it's just it's the fastest change probably any country in the world has experienced outside of maybe China in the eighties. So it's just changed that all sorts of things get leapfrogged. You know, most people never touched a real telephone. They only touch phones.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:01:04 to 00:01:14

Most people never use credit cards. They use mobile payments. I mean, it's just it's a land of leapfrogging. That's probably not 1 sentence, but there you go. Yeah.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:01:14 to 00:01:25

I like a land of leapfrogging. Yeah. That makes sense to me. I remember you sent me the book, Vietnam Interrupted, which kind of had all of these sort of juxtapositions and these changes. Right?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:01:25 to 00:01:26

Yes. Absolutely.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:01:27 to 00:01:28

That summed it up really well.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:01:28 to 00:01:59

Yeah. I was trying to sort of mark 20 years of the business here, and I just thought this would be a great way to to do it, sort of postcard style then and now to really highlight some of the the changes. Sometimes you have to sit back and be really I mean, when when I arrived, you couldn't buy, you know, foodstuffs that you and I might remember from home. But, of course, now you can you could you could walk into a mall and be, you know, anywhere in the region and find anything you may may ever need. It's it's quite staggering.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:02:00 to 00:02:06

Like, I don't wanna, like, sort of say, oh, a country shouldn't be progressing or whatnot, but, you know, there was something quite

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:02:06 to 00:02:06

Charming.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:02:07 to 00:02:09

Charming about it back then.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:02:09 to 00:02:18

Yeah. No. Absolutely. And it's a horrible thing to say, but I mean, there is there is beauty in in in poverty. Right?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:02:18 to 00:03:04

I mean, we all travel, and when we go into a countryside anywhere in the world or we go into a less developed market, there's there's often a great aesthetic beauty and difference. My favorite 2 markets in the world have always been Japan and Vietnam, and particularly Saigon and Tokyo. I mean, just juxtaposed positions in their development, but just so enjoyable to observe and just watch, people watch in those markets where absolutely if you speak to the Vietnamese, you know, their ideal environment is Singapore, you know, and I don't wanna live in Singapore for a reason, right? It's not what what is ideal to me, but that's easy to say because I'm an immigrant, you know, from another from a developed market, and I enjoy the developing aspect of the marketplace.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:03:05 to 00:03:07

It Comes with its challenges. It does. But, I

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:03:07 to 00:03:10

mean, the charm is the charm is phenomenal. Right?

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:03:10 to 00:03:21

I spent some time in Hong Kong, and, actually, I really like that because I felt like it had the soul and the charm of somewhere like Hanoi. Yeah. The grit, But also it really worked.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:03:22 to 00:03:48

Yeah. That's where I lived before I, you know, before I came to Vietnam. And, actually, most of my trips in the in the early nineties were from Hong Kong into Hanoi. You know, but I, yeah, I know what you mean. There's there's still that you you can turn a corner and be in a a thriving wet market in Hong Kong, and a very local scene, and then turn another corner and you're back in high rise.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:03:48 to 00:03:56

Right. And as much it does feel it's got to me, I'm biased because I live there, it's got it's got a much greater soul than than Singapore has.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:03:56 to 00:04:04

Like Vietnam, you know? Well, I feel like Hanoi may have lost some of its charm. You can't deny it's still got a hell of a lot of soul.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:04:04 to 00:04:08

That's true. It certainly has. Yeah. Yeah. Keeps you on your toes.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:04:08 to 00:04:34

Right? But, yeah. That's that's, you know, everybody I've met, obviously, over this the amount of time I've been here, I've seen many people come, stay, enjoy it, go, but then come back again because they miss it so much. And it you know, it's hard to describe what it is, but it is that it's a buzz that is really unique. Speed of change that that really gets people excited.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:04:34 to 00:04:34

Right?

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:04:34 to 00:05:00

Well, I remember I came to Hanoi for the first time, you know, with my backpack and whatnot. And I just landed in the old quarter, and I was like, I need to live here. I just need to live here. And then I went back to London, was working in in media and publishing for a few years, and I could not stop thinking about Hanoi. It was peculiar and to the point where I just had to come back.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:05:00 to 00:05:02

Here I am 15 years later.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:05:02 to 00:05:12

Yep. 28 years later, if you told me in '97 I was gonna be still here in in 2025, I would have just laughed. You said 5 years later, I would have just laughed.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:05:12 to 00:05:18

And you've seen it leapfrog, leapfrog again, and it feels like it's probably on the verge of yet more leapfrogging.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:05:19 to 00:05:42

For sure. I often get to speak to investor conferences, and I really my long term view of Vietnam is very positive. I think up until 2036, 2040, about there, you know, the prospects are fabulous. Then things start to change because the demographic changes so significantly. There's suddenly we have very low number of dependents, non earners in every household at the moment.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:05:42 to 00:06:04

88% are within adult women in the work field. So you have this highly productive society. But, you know, you get to the late thirties, the dynamic starts to change, the fastest growing part of the population is old people now, over fifties. And in fact, the fastest part is the 80, then the 70, then the 60. So we're suddenly gonna have a lot of dependent age people.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:06:04 to 00:06:25

And therefore, a lot of households are going to have to be supporting the older generation. So then that economic dynamic changes dramatically. People often thought about this sort of demographic here for them, young population. It's not a young population anymore of the adults. It's it's a more, you know, very rapidly moving into an aged population.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:06:25 to 00:06:43

And that will bring real real issues to the economic progress. That's why the government's in such a rush to move from a middle income to a high income country by 2045. This is why we're getting this this crazy GDP, forecast. We now wanted 8% this year. Apparently, we'll get it.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:06:43 to 00:07:08

And we want 10% next year. And it's because they realize they've got this this window of a low ratio of dependence in every household where they can push forward. Come to the late 2030s, that's really gonna change. So another 10, 12 years of, you know, generally there'll be ups and downs, I'm sure, but good times, but then I think it'll get a lot harder to progress, to develop, to leapfrog them.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:07:08 to 00:07:10

And no 1 really talks about that.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:07:10 to 00:07:42

Yeah. I've been talking about it for a while because it's a long term trend that should be impacting what marketers do, what property developers do. The problem is most people working in these organizations are probably got the average age of 28, don't wanna think about a D60, 70 year old. But there's huge opportunities. I mean, the older population tend to have a mass wealth, security, stability, discretionary expenditure from travel to aged care, lifestyles that some of these people will, can afford to live or want to live.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:07:42 to 00:07:54

But there's very few people tapping into it. But I'm just starting to see it. I'm starting to see the government press talk more inquiry about the low birth rate and the aging population and how and when society will be prepared for that.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:07:54 to 00:08:06

I think I did a episode on this not so long ago, and it was you know, this is the age group that is most sort of neglected by brands in Vietnam, and it's the older generation, right,

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:08:06 to 00:08:25

globally? I can't tell you how many times I've gone into clients and gone, here's a segmentation. Here's what people want. Doesn't really matter what category from media, entertainment, through their consumer goods, through their automotive to financial services. And there's always this great opportunities in the silver generation, people in my age group and beyond.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:08:25 to 00:08:47

And the young marketers always sort of end up wanting to target people who are 28 to 48 because it's what they know and it's more fun. Right. They can't imagine that their parents or their grandparents would spend money, but of course they do. And often, they've amassed savings of money that the young generation doesn't have. It's a global phenomenon.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:08:47 to 00:08:49

It's really, really quite staggering.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:08:49 to 00:08:57

And the other headline that gets banded around, and you mentioned it earlier, is, you know, this GDP growth in Vietnam absolutely firing.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:08:58 to 00:08:59

Yeah. On fire.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:08:59 to 00:09:12

Yeah. On fire. But I wanted to speak to you a little bit about what you're seeing on the ground in terms of the insight that you have working with brands. Is that growth being felt by brands and consumers on the ground?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:09:12 to 00:09:51

The short answer is no, not at all, and not not since COVID. You know, before COVID, yes, but not since COVID. The most common call I get is from a CEO saying, how do I reconcile my regional office or my head office overseas seeing a headline that says GDP grew 7.7% versus me struggling to get any growth at all in my volume of sales? And maybe I get some broken value because I put my prices up, but I can't seem to sell more. And it's a real challenge for people because the macro data masks a lot of real issues with consumer, essentially, and the domestic demand of the economy.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:09:51 to 00:10:17

So So you got a 2 pronged economy. You've got an industrial manufacturing base primed mostly for export. So if exports are going well, that's a great contributor to GBP. You've got public infrastructure investment, which is a great contributor to GDP on, and the government's certainly trying to up its ability to spend and and speed of expenditure. Generally, it doesn't spend ordinary budgets because of the execution issues.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:10:17 to 00:10:40

But the domestic economy for the last few years since COVID has really struggled. Consumer sentiment still wins. This year, it's about 10 points below where it was pre COVID. You know, I think last year, it was nearly 15 points below, so it's gotten a little better, but it's still still way below. A lot of households not doing so well, not feeling like they've got the ability to go out and spend beyond essentials.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:10:40 to 00:10:51

Yeah. So quite shy with their expenditure. And there are lots of reasons for this. You know, there's been some fundamental shifts. Yeah, so it's a real challenge for the seat just to explain it's upstairs if you like.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:10:51 to 00:10:53

What other reasons would you say?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:10:53 to 00:11:27

I think number 1 reason is I remember feeling very jealous of friends back in England during COVID who were getting you know, paid without doing anything or getting support from the the government that that wasn't really in existence here. So people depleted all their savings to survive during COVID. So there's 1, I've gotta get my savings back. 2, there was, of course, a shock that something like COVID could happen, and therefore even putting more on the needs of having an established savings in case of a disaster. That's still ongoing, and people have been saving more.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:11:27 to 00:11:49

I think the other big fundamental shift is true household inflation. We see macroeconomic data on inflation, which suggests for the last couple of years, it's been around 3% to 4%. But in reality, for a consumer shopping basket, it's been up above 10%, and wage inflation hasn't kept up with that. So there's real cost of living pressure on those households. There are some other factors.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:11:49 to 00:12:23

I mean, people spend a lot more today on experiences, and that could be, you know, a cup of bubble tea or or eating out of the, you know, a Thai restaurant for the experience, or it could be traveling, getting on beer jet, you know, having taken the family on the holiday. So a lot of movement to experience based spend. And a lot of that really is driven by social media. Why would I go to an expensive coffee shop or matcha tea shop or bubble tea shop or, you know, the the big hand hand of a bridge in Da Nang if I'm traveling? You know, it's primarily to post for photos.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:12:23 to 00:12:38

Right? And get the recognition from brands that you are experiencing over the life. Keeping up with the new wins in that sense is part of that. There's another big shift, which is to online shopping. So, you know, you look at the players over the years and they've changed in their ranking.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:12:39 to 00:13:17

We've been selling things generally at a loss. You know, heavy discounting, heavy promotions to get people into an online shopping routine, which is they've been very successful at now. Shopee's winning that battle, but, you know, that also changes people's spending behavior in terms of what they're buying and their and their access to to goods. So, you know, all those things come together and create quite a strong dynamic of change, but I think the the biggest issues really are the household budgets being being stressed, savings being rebuilt, and true household shopping have raised much higher than the the consumer index, the the general statistics office would release.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:13:17 to 00:13:21

You did give me the giggles then, and you said keeping it within when's.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:13:21 to 00:13:37

It's important. You think back over the time when you arrived, they were probably, was that, that was probably slightly ahead of the Spacey, right? In the early days, Space and showing up well was 5 55 cigarettes and a bottle of Johnny Walker. Gold. Right?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:13:38 to 00:13:53

Then you had the sort of the spacey motorbike, and I'll spend 1,000 on a motorbike, and then it went to smartphones, and now it's experiences, right? I ran a marathon. I go to yoga. I do pole dancing. Whatever it may be.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:13:53 to 00:14:07

It's about sharing those experiences as cues of your success and status. Right. So that conspicuous consumption was huge. It's not that anymore. It's that conspicuous consumption really dropped off.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:14:07 to 00:14:08

It's different things to that.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:14:08 to 00:14:10

And if it's not on the gram, then it didn't happen.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:14:11 to 00:14:13

Yes. It's almost like you were there.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:14:13 to 00:14:27

Right? I feel like that's the the case everywhere in the world with regards to, like, sticking something on the Internet. There's something particularly powerful about it in Vietnam, I think. Are you familiar with the expression song ao? No.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:14:27 to 00:14:30

I think it's like the digital life.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:14:30 to 00:14:30

Okay.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:14:30 to 00:14:41

Or, you know, where people will go to a coffee shop and with a change of clothes and a wardrobe, and go in the toilet and come out and take a picture next to the wall and

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:14:41 to 00:14:41

Yep.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:14:41 to 00:14:51

Stick it online. Yep. Or go up to a mountain with fake baguettes and picnic baskets and balloons, and it it's it's the photo shoot, you know?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:14:51 to 00:14:53

Yeah. It's taken to a whole other level.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:14:53 to 00:15:02

It is. And I've seen recently, and I had this idea a while ago. I should have acted on it to create, like, photo booth shops. So you go in, you stick on some prop.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:15:02 to 00:15:08

They exist now. I mean, you're you're a little late. I'm well late. It's seeking social recognition.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:15:08 to 00:15:14

And that's why people are spending more on experiences when they do spend rather than things.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:15:15 to 00:15:27

Yeah. You know, maybe not literally more. It doesn't have to be a huge expense, but those often small treats, if you like, and experimental delights. Yeah. They go a long way to satisfying people's need for, social

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:15:32 to 00:15:36

recognition. Let's talk about Tet baby. Okay,

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:15:37 to 00:15:37

very good.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:15:38 to 00:15:39

What's going on with Tet?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:15:39 to 00:16:24

What's going on with Tet? So yeah. So first of all, for the for the listeners who maybe don't know Vietnam so well, just to to give some sense of how important Tet can be. If you are in snacks, beverages, packaged foods, biscuits, 10 being the celebration of Lunar New Year, the coming of spring, it can be up to 4045% of annual sales. So if you're in beer, spirits, beverages, snacks, candy, anything that's that's consumed whilst entertaining others or used commonly for gifting, it can be 45% of your annual sales happening across a 6 week period.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:16:25 to 00:16:50

So, if you get it wrong, like you're short on supply or your special limited edition packaging per tete was laid, you've just ruined your year if you get it wrong and if it doesn't work. The sense of TED is also renewal. So again, this is for listeners overseas. The idea is that you might replace things at TED. You might spruce up your house with breath of paint, redo your garden, replace some electronics.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:16:50 to 00:17:40

If you're gonna buy a new TV, it's probably coming up to the new year that we're gonna do it. So across a lot of categories, it's really important. But it's fundamentally changed since, where it's fundamentally been changing, but last year was the most dramatic shift I saw in attitudes and spending of tech. Spending was down, I think driven largely by some of the points we talked about earlier, cost of living pressures, trying to rebuild up savings, nest egg sort of future. But really spending down celebration being not so much looked forward to as in the past, making it more low key, less people, just closer family, not extended family and or friends in terms of the celebrations because preparing and entertaining and feeding and giving people drinks across money.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:17:40 to 00:17:51

But the gifting has also seen dramatic change. Gifting used to be about people you visited. You'd give, maybe your teachers. You might give business contacts. You might give your boss.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:17:52 to 00:17:53

Important people generally.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:17:53 to 00:18:21

People who might be able to help you in life. You'd give a gift, right, to sort of win favor for the future. Or to say thank you for the past, generally to win favor for the deep craving. The money was spent on on tech gifting. And again, a lot of categories that really did well on tech gifting were alcohol, spirits, cigarettes, beer, you know, yes, biscuits, Biscuit tins or snack tins or things of that ill.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:18:21 to 00:18:40

Could be made to not really fill a basket. It looked like a substantial gift. But the attitudes of gifting have really changed. Much less gifting in terms of bosses or business contacts or, you know, local officials or people who might help smooth your way and teach you, than before. But also the nature of gifts, you know, non alcohol.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:18:41 to 00:19:05

Things that might be healthy, like, you know, that somebody older, like a fortified drink. Healthy snacks, not unhealthy snacks. And a bit more meaning and thought going into them rather than them just being conspicuous items. So a much calmer, quieter Tet without the heavy celebrations, the heavy drinking, and Vietnam is very much a drinking culture. So that's quite a significant impact.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:19:05 to 00:19:13

I've just never seen it like that in my 28 years until last year. It was like, wow, that's a massive change.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:19:13 to 00:19:22

So did you see that from the tech visits you went on and your family or extended family or friends, or is this something you discovered in research later?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:19:22 to 00:19:50

We do a study over every tech to look at what people are doing. So I can look back over years. This time, we spoke to 1000 consumers across the country, and we also did, to understand the responses we were getting, we did 16 focus groups across the country, Canton, Danang, Hanoi, and Portugal. So we could understand the sort of quantitative data we were getting back and see how attitudes are shifting or why that was. So, yeah, it's not anecdotal feedback.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:19:50 to 00:19:59

It's 1,000 interviews, maybe more, and there are 16 focus groups. So it's quite an extensive study.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:19:59 to 00:20:04

I've certainly observed Tet feel less grand, less lengthy.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:20:04 to 00:20:05

Right. You

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:20:05 to 00:20:16

know, I feel like it used to go on for about 3 months. Yeah. Maybe not 3 months, but you know, like 3, 4 weeks. Yeah. Hanoi was a ghost town.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:20:16 to 00:20:17

Yes.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:20:17 to 00:20:25

It really was a ghost town back in the day. Now it seems like it's almost business as usual on like, day 2 or 3.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:20:25 to 00:20:53

Yeah. I mean, for a number of years, it's been a real dichotomy for the female head of household because she wants to do right by the family and the extended family. It's it's hard work. I mean, it puts huge financial pressure on the households to decrease spending. You know, in that in that month where debt falls, they're typically spending, you know, 2 and a half months, you know, equivalent of what they would normally be spending because of all the entertainment they did doing and visiting of other people and relatives.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:20:53 to 00:21:26

So that's caused the thing that had a household in this country is, you know, generally manages the money. Sounds very unfortunate, bro, but generally looks after all the the household chores and preparation for debt. So real pain for her over the years. That's why you would have seen a lot of advertisers sort of, you review the advertising in this country, start showing the men helping out around the house or around tech, because that would be ideal for any female household. And then I think since COVID, again, to the points we alluded to earlier, it's a struggle for people.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:21:26 to 00:21:57

So the necessity to cut down the expenses around tech, around the entertainment, around the gifting, have really dug in as well. So then suddenly you see Tet having less money spent on it, less time given to it because, you know, yes, I might wanna go home if I'm a migrant living in Illinois, and I might wanna go back to my province in, I don't know, A Zang and visit family, but previously I might have gone for 2 weeks. Now I'm going for 3 or 4 days. Alright. Because it all costs money.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:21:58 to 00:22:25

And the joy's being a little bit sucked out of it, which is super unfortunate, and I I hope it rights itself. But I think with the younger generation, what's interesting is they look at tech now not as they used to. I mean, even 7 years ago, they were just as into the reconnection with family as as people older than them. They now look at it as a time for a personal break. You know, a lot of them would prefer just to get somewhere else on a beach break.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:22:26 to 00:22:30

How have you seen brands or marketers adapt their messaging?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:22:30 to 00:23:09

It's still harking back to the ideals. And if there's any brands listening, you should really read the report because, you know, we talk to them about communications over tech. And it's so stereotypical, and it's been what, you know, has been for the last 10 years, which is pretty emotional laden stories often about it. You know, somebody returning home, Tet, and the challenges of getting home, and the joy it brings to the family when they arrive with whatever the good being advertised. And they've had their time and people are over They're not connecting because they're now so far removed from reality where they just seem silly.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:23:09 to 00:23:29

So brands actually, I would say, haven't reacted very well and are kind of missing the point of being authentic and that re resonating with consumers through that authenticity. They're still harping on about old historic attitudes to the tech that were relevant in 2015, but not in 2020, but

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:23:29 to 00:23:31

there's probably an opportunity there.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:23:32 to 00:24:05

Yeah, there's a real opportunity for someone to get it right, but it takes a little bit of bravery for brands to let their agencies I'm sure the agencies know this, but the brands to sort of let them go at a bold new approach, it takes a bit of bravery. Yeah. Again, because, you know, 40% of your annual sales and then on your tech campaign and promotions working. So you gotta be a brave man or woman to say, okay, let's try a different, you know, untested approach to the way we communicate around tech. Right?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:24:05 to 00:24:09

The fear of getting it wrong has pulled a lot of people back, I think.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:24:10 to 00:24:14

I know you said you hope it hasn't, but do you think tech's changed forever?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:24:14 to 00:24:29

Yeah. I do, unfortunately. Just because when I look at the attitudes of the youth, I just think, oh, it probably has changed forever. The whole idea of that massive Tet holiday in terms of time and expenses start to disappear.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:24:30 to 00:24:54

I imagine that there's a lot more pressure to get back to work, get back to the factory, get back to gig work, whether it's Grab or Shopee. You know? I was speaking to a journalist in the last episode called Lam Le, and she was talking about gig workers can't really turn their phones off now because because the algorithm will punish them. You know? So there's this pressure to get back to work and get back to this gamified environment of work.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:24:54 to 00:24:55

So Yeah.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:24:55 to 00:25:10

And I imagine you're not getting a tech bonus as a gig worker. Right. I mean, you think about people's expense and therefore, why the 10 the 30 month salary is so important to people is because it really is a very expensive timing year. But if you're a gig worker, that must be must be hell.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:25:11 to 00:25:19

Yeah. About the thirteenth month bonus, I think global audiences or people coming here to start businesses may not be aware of that.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:25:19 to 00:25:20

Right.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:25:20 to 00:25:22

It's quite a killer, isn't it, a thirteenth month?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:25:22 to 00:25:35

It is quite a killer. It's fine if you're having a wonderful year, but if times are tough, it's a killer. Yeah. Because it's a cash flow killer. Before TED, everybody would need to pay, once paying, obviously, because again, it's their most expensive time of the year.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:25:35 to 00:26:10

And yes, it's not a legal obligation, but it's a cultural obligation that people expect thirteenth month salary paid just before holiday. So for a business, it's the month when you're quiet just because there's there's, I don't know, 7, 8 working days of public holidays. So you're quiet. Most people are switched off. So if you're coming from a European Western world, sort of like the attitude to Christmas 2 weeks before today, everybody kind of switched off, nothing's happening, and you've got this 2 months salary to pay, and every supplier you have wants to pay early.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:26:10 to 00:26:11

It's a real strain.

Ian Paynton [HOST]: From 00:26:17 to 00:26:31

I'd like to end these episodes by asking what you're most excited about for Vietnam's future. We've talked a little bit about what the long term looks like. So I wanted to switch this up a little bit and ask you, what are you most excited about stroke cautious of for the next 5 years?

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:26:32 to 00:26:57

I guess a couple of things. There's a lot of hype about Vietnam versus reality. And I'm I I really want those things to to move closer together. Vietnam felt extraordinary dynamic pre '19, and, you know, for for all my clients selling into the domestic market, it was good times. I I would I would like those good times to come back.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:26:57 to 00:27:52

I think they will. I just think there needs to be more queuing of positive sentiment to the Vietnamese consumer and things that could impact that are like seeing the property market pick up again, seeing their scandals around corruption, and probably the most practical 1 is people feeling like they've recovered their savings to the point where they can't stop, perhaps relaxing a little bit more and enjoying life a little bit more. I think it'll get a little bit better next year, not hugely, but they're the sort of things I'm I would like to see. I think, you know, sometimes I have to sort of take a step back and remind myself and others that Enam is doing a great job at progressing from a policy agenda, from an opening, from a market access point of view. Some of the reforms that are that are on the way, you know, the merging of ministries, the merging of provinces, the digitalization of the economy.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:27:53 to 00:28:15

A lot of it makes great sense and makes me feel optimistic. I just again, there's gonna be optimism versus reality, which is these things are happening very quickly. Their plans for them to be completed very quickly. But having been here for 28 years, I know that optimism is probably overstated. And the reality, it would take them much longer to execute the to see the benefits some of the things.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:28:16 to 00:28:45

In a way, it's like, wow. That's pretty dramatic reform, you know, when you look at merging ministries, merging provinces, digitalizing the economy, I mean, digitalizing household businesses, which in the long term kinda has to happen. But I know there's a reality that it's gonna take much longer to really have a have an impact. So that's, I guess, the dilemma I always have between opportunity and and reality, or optimism and reality, or hype and reality. Be nice if they came close together.

Richard [GUEST]: From 00:28:45 to 00:28:57

There's quite a wide gap between them at the moment. So I think, yeah, in the next 5 years, seeing those things come closer together, seeing people be a bit more realistic about their expectations would be good.