S6E3: Learning Language at the Speed of Being Human with James Mattiace.

In This Episode

In this episode of It’s About Language, Norah Jones interviews James Mattiace. He is an educator, assessment reformer, and lifelong language learner. They discuss what languages reveal, not just about communication. They also explore how people think, learn, and relate to one another.

James draws on lived experience across eight countries. He reflects on language as a human system. It is nonlinear and deeply tied to identity. It is also shaped by power, culture, and motivation. The conversation shifts easily between topics. It moves from Costa Rica to Nahuatl and from refugee education to assessment reform. It always returns to one central idea. Language learning works best when it is rooted in meaning, dignity, and curiosity.

You’ll Hear About

James shares what it’s like to build a life across cultures and languages. He begins with his experience living in Costa Rica. He discusses what the country’s cooperative founding narrative reveals about cultural values today. He traces his personal language journey. He explores what sparked it and what stalled it. He examines how motivation, belonging, and human connection determine whether a language takes root or is quietly resisted.

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Transcript

Music

Norah Jones: (00:11)

Those that are in the language realm really have a sense of both the excitement and the vulnerability of the language learning experience, of the language using experience. My guest for this episode is James Matisse. James actually wrote to me saying that he felt that my previous guests have more insight than he was able to share.

which is such a typical thing for a person that loves language to say about themselves. There's a basic humility that comes by applying our human desire to be amazing at things to something as mystical and as essential to the human experience as language. When we learn language at the speed of being human, we come into the situations that life has brought us.

and take the chance to make connections. We explore how others think, how others learn, how others relate. James draws on this lived experience from being in over eight countries. We reflect on language as a system and its non-linear nature, its deep embed.

in the human spirit. Enjoy this podcast because this is an opportunity for you too to connect to the amazing magic of language and also sometimes those challenges we feel in our spirit because language is so amazing and so powerful.

Norah Jones (01:53)

What do you like about Costa Rica? What do you like about living there? That's very interesting to find out from you.

James Mattiace (02:00)

⁓ this is my eighth country that I've resided in, for longer than a vacation. so this is, so we're pretty used to the adjustment, like getting in, you know, how to make all the necessary things happen because I'm fluent in Spanish and I also lived in Panama for seven years. So I have an understanding of Central American culture, although not to imply the Costa Rican culture and Panamanian culture are interchangeable, but there are, there are similarities.

being neighboring countries. I've recently started describing Costa Rica to my Panamanian friends as Costa Rica's Panama on Valium. it's, yeah, the people are incredibly nice. There's the ethos of the country. They have this concept called a rural democracy where that

Norah Jones (02:35)

on Valium.

James Mattiace (02:48)

According to the legend, according to the founding legend, every country has their founding legends, According to the Costa Rican founding legend, when the Spanish came, the country was so hard to farm that the Spaniards had to work in collaboration with the indigenous. Now, there's lots of evidence to suggest that the Spaniards wiped out a lot of the indigenous or forced them out or diseased, right? So it's not like it was, everybody was happy. But the founding legend here is that there's this spirit of cooperation.

that exists from the country's colonial origins that thrives today in their political life. So it's kind of an interesting founding story. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of indigenous counter narrative because they were pushed out and not absorbed into the community like they are in Guatemala or in southern Mexico. the Costa Ricans are

Norah Jones (03:28)

Ugh.

James Mattiace (03:37)

are much more European in their appearance than other countries in Central America. But that's kind of blended in with their founding myth as well. It's just interesting. But anyway, very environmentally conscious. They don't have an army. There's lots of very progressive things about the country. However, the current government is center right and very Christian oriented. So we shall see.

Norah Jones (03:57)

Mm-hmm.

Do you think that you used a phrase back there that I think I'm going to get a little bit wrong, James, which is about like a ⁓ kind of a democratic aspect or a cooperative.

James Mattiace (04:08)

Yeah, they call

it rural democracy, or rural democratic philosophy, think, or rural democratic politics. There's a third word in it that they use to describe the origin of Costa Rican settlement, post-Columbus settlement. And it refers to the concept of that the life was so hard that they had to cooperate in order to get...

Food on the table in order to plant and grow because it's cuz it's so mountainous

Norah Jones (04:34)

Yeah,

from what I understand too, that in Costa Rica, unlike in some other areas, decisions were made fairly early on to make sure that land was not all gathered up by some wealthy individuals and not allowed to be used by the great bulk of the people, but that there were

some policies put into place that helped to make sure that people had access to land and therefore some ongoing wealth of personal value. Is that true?

James Mattiace (05:07)

Yeah.

I don't know if there are policies put in place. know that the coffee plantation owners and the banana plantation owners definitely made their share of wealth. There are family names that are very well connected to that sort of wealth. And there are also other family names that are well connected to the post 1990s economic boom that happened here.

related to tourism and the influx of Western conveniences that came in. like, you know, there's this my apartment, the guy who owns my apartment that we rent from his dad was the owner of this massive chain of convenience stores, which they sold to Walmart and made millions of dollars. Right. So like they're there. That's here for sure.

Norah Jones (05:48)

Hmm.

huh.

James Mattiace (05:54)

I will say having traveled just a bit around the country, we've only been here since July, so I can't profess any concrete knowledge of the geography, you don't see in Panama, when you left Panama City, you saw immediate rural poverty, like immediate. And it was the distribution of wealth in the country was very much, Panama City had all the wealth, it had all the initiatives, had, you know, when the literacy went off.

Panama City got their electricity back on first. Other people would have to wait two or three weeks. Here, and there's also a racial component to that too, because the Caribbean side of the country is very black, West Indian, African, Jamaican, Afro-Indian. And so there's also that element that goes along with it, of course, and unfortunately in every culture. Here, when we traveled, we drove five hours west to the Pacific and north.

We went to the Pacific Northwest of Costa Rica. I didn't see that rural poverty. it seemed to be, there was like shacks, know, there was, there was definitely not palatial mansions, but it looked like the rural communities as we went through them had a very nice distribution of income. Now, who knows, we were on the main roads, right? Who knows if you went, you know, 10 feet into the jungle, what you're going to find. So, and then the other issue is the gentrification with.

Norah Jones (06:57)

Still, first impressions.

James Mattiace (07:00)

Americans and Canadians coming down here and retiring and raising the prices for everybody, which is frequently discussed and is a major topic in the presidential election, which happens on February 1st.

Norah Jones (07:03)

Thank

Wow, that's almost right there. You mentioned eight countries total, James, that you have lived in. And would you name them? Could you name them for me, please?

James Mattiace (07:18)

Yeah, this is our ETH that we've settled in.

I can, yeah. Well, there's a country, United States of America, Morocco, Panama, Taiwan, Colombia, Spain, Mexico, and then Costa Rica. So.

Norah Jones (07:31)

Why don't you tell my listeners who you are, what you have done, and what you consider to be some of your, I would say, key identity aspects with regard to language. Why are we talking today?

James Mattiace (07:38)

Sure.

Oh, yes. Awesome. I would say you had a previous guest on a couple of episodes ago, Paul Frank, who was talking about his evolution, like growing up in multilingual or at least in communities where he was exposed to other languages other than the one that he spoke at home. And I grew up in New York City, in the suburbs of New York City.

For listeners who are from New York City, I don't mean to offend. I grew up in the suburbs. I grew up in Westchester County. Yes, but we didn't have cows. Just wanted to be clear. But I went to high school in the Bronx, so I think I have some legitimacy there. But, you know, New York is such a melting pot of languages and cultures. And so I was surrounded by these languages and cultures, but I didn't speak them. Like I wasn't forced.

because it was largely immigrant communities that were trying to assimilate. I wasn't, I mean, on my block alone, we had, we had a Roma family, we had a Polish family. These are all like fresh, recently arrived. We had an Indian family, think they were Bengali. We had a Russian family, Germans, German Jews. We've been there forever.

I mean, this is the mix of cultures that are on my block, right? But everybody was striving to assimilate and speak English. I wasn't necessarily meeting Russian kids and learning Russian. Although I did attempt to learn Japanese when I was in fifth grade from one of my classmates. But also in fifth grade, had a Vietnamese family arrive. And, you know, this was 84 or 85. So it wasn't

I wouldn't consider them boat people, but they may have been like, you know, migratory boat people. they'd landed on the West coast and then moved over. and I was, remember, we had these two kids show up to school one day and they were Vietnamese, spoke no English. And, ⁓ the, the, ⁓ the teacher, my teacher asked, does anybody want to help them with their English? And I said, I'll, I'll, do it. And so, I went home, my dad had served in Vietnam. He was a green beret in Vietnam.

So I asked him if he had any Vietnamese language books. so he gave me the field guide that soldiers were given for when they went and encountered Vietnamese people. And so the whole book was like, are there any VC in the village? Where are the weapons? Have you seen any ⁓ captives? So the freeze book wasn't really super useful for me communicating with these Vietnamese guys, but.

Norah Jones (09:55)

Real great fifth grade stuff, right?

James Mattiace (10:03)

But I did, and I kind of took them as my language partners and attempted to learn a little bit of Vietnamese. But really, I only say this just because I was contrasting. was thinking about what Paul Frank was saying, is I didn't have that experience as a kid where I was always exposed to other languages and learning them. But like I said, I tried to learn Japanese. I you know, integrate with this Vietnamese family. But...

Yeah, was really in high school. I took Latin and then took French. And then I taught in Oregon, know, very predominantly Mexican-American, well, Mexican migrant school. And we had a large number of kids coming through with their families during various harvest seasons. And so I, you know, started picking up Spanish just to be able to communicate with my students, but could only speak in the present tense and only about very limited topics.

But yeah, it was just, but I had an affinity for it. had the Latin background. you know, taught, it took Latin for eight years. I taught it for two years. So I had that sort of romance, romance language hook to hang Spanish on. And then I had the French. So anyway, I moved to Morocco to teach at American school in Morocco and my French went, got reignited. But then I started learning. ⁓

Moroccan Darija, Moroccan Arabic, which is for your listeners, you know, but for your listeners, Moroccan Darija is as similar to Arabic as Cuban Spanish is to Castilian Spanish, right? So there's lots of slang, lots of words that are cut. And there's also, it's mix in French and English and Spanish and so on. So I can understand Arabic, but they can't understand me because I speak of...

patois sort of version. anyway, I did that for six years, got fluent, became fluent in Darija. And then accepted a job in Panama. went to intensive Spanish courses, and then started learning Spanish by watching the news in Spanish, and then became fluent in Spanish, which again, the Latin background helped the French background helped.

And that's for seven years. Um, and then went to Taiwan and then Taiwan was interesting because Taiwan, as soon as I arrived at the school in Taiwan, I knew I was leaving. Like I knew I was going to do my two year contract and leave. It was just an immediate mismatch. I was the upper school principal and it was an immediate mismatch with the, with the director of the school, the head of school, like just from, from even day before day one, I was like, this is not going to work. And so I knew I was leaving from the minute I was going to

Finish my contract, I honor my contract. So I'd been learning Mandarin over the summer before I accepted the position. And as soon as I got there, that willpower just kind of went out the window. I really decided, I almost actively resisted it, which is weird. I mean, I would still do Duolingo and I would attempt to learn, but I just kind of shut down. I was just like, this language, I'm not staying here and I'm...

I started almost like a mini protest. I was like, I'm not gonna learn this language. I picked up basics, right? But it goes to that, some of that goes to that concept of motivation for students who want to learn a language. Like you never know who's in your class or who's in your program and maybe they really don't want to be there and they just are just gonna rebel by pushing back against the language. That was kind of, you know.

Norah Jones (12:56)

Interesting, interesting. Right, but it's interesting in motion.

apps.

James Mattiace (13:16)

In hindsight, it was stupid. could have used the two years to really immerse myself in the language, but I did. And the other thing too is, see, yeah.

Norah Jones (13:20)

but it

sure illustrates the humanity of language. If you are not happy with the humans, the language is that connection and you're not interested. So please continue.

James Mattiace (13:27)

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓

Yeah.

And I knew I wasn't going to be making long-term friends with Taiwanese people because we weren't going to be there a lot. And Taiwanese people are also very, you know, there's a cultural, like, you know, they don't have a culture of inviting people over to houses. It's very, like you meet out in public and restaurants. It's not a, it's not a, that same culture that Morocco is the exact opposite where everybody invites you to their house. And so the, yeah, just, utility wise, it was just like, okay, I'm not going to focus on this. But yeah. And then.

Norah Jones (13:58)

you

James Mattiace (14:01)

Just bounce, you know, Columbia, Spain, Mexico. I always get flagged in Mexico for my Central American accent, which I think is really cool. Like I'm always, whenever I get, whenever somebody's like, you from Panama? I say, So not from, but you know, I like that I picked up the accent and regionalisms. But while I was in Mexico, I really decided I wanted to learn Nahuatl, which most people in English pronounce it Nahuatl.

Norah Jones (14:16)

Yeah.

James Mattiace (14:23)

but I'm gonna be a pedant and pronounce it the way the Aztecs pronounced it or the way the language pronounced it, which is, know what? And the TL makes a sound like a bus coming to a stop. So I'm also the same guy who pronounces Budapest and Chile. So, you know, I do those things, which, you I try not to correct people. Yeah, I try not to correct people too often, but ⁓ anyway, so, yeah, I decided I wanted to learn Nahuatl.

Norah Jones (14:38)

you're pedant that you might be. Keep it going there, James. Keep it going.

James Mattiace (14:49)

more primarily just because it was an opportunity to learn it. didn't, Mexico is obviously the home to the language. There's 1.5 million people who still speak it. so I started going and learning that language on Saturdays at a community center, but the, the, course was taught in Spanish. So I was learning a third language in a second language, which was really, I thought interesting, from a pedagogical, but also from a, sort of a

philosophical perspective, To think about those concepts that we have that are tied to a language. But then when you change the concept, when we change the language, the concept changes as well. So like, like,

Norah Jones (15:25)

You know I'm going to go,

yes, give me an, give us an example, James. You've got to take us down a couple rabbit trails here, please.

James Mattiace (15:28)

So.

Yeah, for sure. I love this stuff. So when I was in class, my classmates, none of whom ever revealed that they spoke English or a language other than Spanish. They may be. They may have been polyglots, but nobody ever revealed that in class. And the professor was a fluent Nahuatl speaker and fluent Spanish, but not an experienced language teacher. So we were just kind of like sharing Nahuatl with us.

So, mean, the classes, I never took notes by day because it would, ⁓ my gosh, we would just leap from concept to concept, all over the place. But because I had studied enough languages, I knew I needed a page dedicated to pronouns. I needed a page dedicated to verb constructions. I needed a page dedicated to tense. So I would shuffle in my notebook as we would jump through these things. So yeah, there were some concepts that were interesting.

Because I had studied Arabic, they use this object, subjective object at the end of a word to indicate who the who is happening to. Right. And so so I studied Arabic, so I picked that up right away. But my classmates, that was a new concept for them. So I was kind of breezing along and they were struggling with that one. But then when he got into cognates and he would refer to all these cognates that were tied to Spanish that I maybe not didn't have a firsthand experience.

with. Like for example, the concept they have in Spanish, they have a word, to callo, which means to have the same name as somebody else. And it means you have the exact same name, right? So like, Nora Jones, the other Nora Jones, and you are to kind of like you have the same name. We don't have the concept in English, we just we don't we don't have a word for it. Namesake is probably the closest we get to.

So he was trying to explain this. was like, he was using the Nahuatl word and he like, oh, it's Takaio. And I was like, I don't know this word. Like I hadn't learned that word yet or the concept. And then he asked me, was like, I was like, we have like junior or like names. I was like, we don't have that idea in English. Or like he was describing what I thought he was describing the verb to learn. Cause all the examples you were using involved this one word. And he was talking about, but

Really what it was in Nahuatl, they have this concept of places of learning. So really he was talking about school, but I was thinking, I thought it was a verb and he was talking about a noun, right? So like those kinds of things were just fun to get through, but the best one was the, in class. So for those who don't speak Spanish, the verb to like is gustarse, it's reflexive, right? So if something you see, if you want to say, I like it, you say me gusta, like it.

pleases me, like, me gusta use the third person, like it pleases me. So all of my Spanish speaking colleagues, that's how they understood that reflexive concept of something being it, you know, they may not think through it, like in terms of what the literal construction is, but they get that it's a reflexive verb. In Nahuatl, the whole concept of liking something has to do with proximity. So they use this word called Nespactia, which is a compound word.

which means to be in the presence of something that gives you joy. Right? And so you have nesh-fakti'ah, like you have this nesh-fakti'ah. And so this was like, my colleague, like I didn't have a problem with it because I wasn't wedded to the reflexive verb concept. Like I had already learned that concept. So I was like, okay, there's another way of saying liking something. I can do that. And like in Arabic, in Moroccan Arabic, like they use when you're saying that you want something,

you say it in the past tense, even though you mean in the present. Like when you go into stories like, I wanted that. So, but even though you're communicating in the present, I, you know, those kinds of things didn't throw me. But my classmates were like, what? Like, this is not possible. They're just going around and around. So it was, it was really, it was, it was, it was a really fun metacognitive experience, but also really fun just broadening of my understanding of languages and, and, and then.

Norah Jones (19:11)

and

James Mattiace (19:16)

⁓ and then I get to be that guy who says, no, it's pronounced now. ⁓ but, and then now I'm Amarik, which is, which is very interesting. Cause it's, it's, it's a, it's a simplified version of a language in the sense that they don't have all these questions. No, there's no interrogative case. Like you just, you, you just asked it just, it's a tone similar to do in English. but,

Norah Jones (19:20)

We

Why is it interesting?

James Mattiace (19:37)

the verbs are all, still getting verbs with three letters, just like in Arabic. So that's easy, right? But then they change the vowels depending on what they're trying to communicate past or present tense. This is my understanding right now. I can't profess to have a universal understanding. at four weeks in, right? So this is very basic. But.

They use the object subject as well. they'll attach. So there's a great example. There's a word which means to enter. But if you put the object subject to me onto the verb, it then means to understand because the whatever it was has entered you and now you understand. So that's cool. Like I was like that. That's that's a really cool.

So I'm eager to learn more of those. it feels, going back to my Arabic, my Darija, feels, there's no cognates that I've discovered yet. There probably will be. I'm sure there will be, just by proximity to the Middle East and trade routes and everything else. I'm sure there will be cognates. But I feel like I can pick up the language with an Arabic background faster than I would with any other background. So it's a cool experience.

Norah Jones (20:39)

circuit.

James Mattiace (20:41)

I'm going to Ethiopia in March, so we'll test it. We'll see how I do.

Norah Jones (20:44)

You certainly will. certainly will. This is okay.

you have, mean, what you've described is, is fascinating, first of all, clearly there's a dedication to saying and what knew is around the corner. And it has revealed many things to you folks. Most of the folks I think in my listening audience are folks that are well aware of the fact that the languages are expressions of people's perception.

of the world and the kinds of things that they want to do in the world, how they feel that the world works. You have quite a bottle cap collection here, James, and what is it that it has done for how you work in the world, what you do in the world, how you think it provides options and insights that help you to help others in the world.

What has the diversity and the perspectives of language done for you then as a person who also works in the world and cares about the world?

James Mattiace (21:47)

It's a great question. And I'd actually be curious to hear your own perspective on this. think you, first of all, not your own language journey, but also you get to have all these amazing conversations with all of these other people who are doing this. And I'm curious how that has influenced your perspective on language and how people move through the world, having heard all these stories, which we get to share with you by listening to podcast.

So I'll just give a brief, my only contribution to this conversation would be that I have a very high tolerance for people who make mistakes in my native language. So like I would say that's one aspect of it. I was born without shyness. So I'm very, I have no problem talking to people.

and, screwing it up and figuring it out. And that's, think that's one obstacle that a lot of people struggle with when they are learning language, they don't want to screw it up and they don't want to be embarrassed. have, I don't have that emotion. So, I'm happy to go and just jump in and try it. but, and I think the other thing I would say is it's helped, it's helped me make, when I see connections between cultural

things or things that are not necessarily connected but are divergent. And I can share that with. So when I was when I was learning, guess I guess when I was learning the now what the we were talking in class about. I don't know what the big has to do with gender. I don't know. I remember was sorry it was they they have the concept. So Spanish has like a key.

like here or a ka, a ya or a ye there, and then a quayo, which is like far away, right? They have those concepts. And in Nahuatl, they have two. They have here and not here. Like it's gone. it's either, it's like, there's no like, it's over there. It's like, it's not, it's, and the way he was describing it was he was touching, he would go around the room and touch things and say, this is here.

He's like, but he would point to something that was within reach, but he couldn't touch it. He's like, that's gone. Like, so that's, so I was able to, to share that in, in, ⁓ in Benin, they have a concept of, ⁓ I haven't seen you since yesterday. I haven't seen you since three days. And if it's been more than three days, I have not seen you in forever. Like, it's like the, like you are, if it's longer than three days.

Norah Jones (23:55)

is

James Mattiace (24:13)

I don't know what happened to you, man. You could be dead. could like you're like you're gone forever. So I was able to share that kind of concept of time relating to distance like just a different. So yeah, that's the Arabic has the same thing like they have one day, two days and three or more days. Those are different versions of the the now. And so it's just like some I don't know what it is about the three like the ancient travel patterns like three days was enough to get to see somebody and if you didn't see him three days and

Who knows what happened to that person? They're out of my, out of sight out of mind. So yeah, so being able to, I like that connection, but really I think it's the tolerance for people who are struggling to learn any language that I speak and that translated into my career as an educator because there's this strong push in international schools and we can dive into that politics later of, know, parents are paying for English language education. They want English all the time.

There's no tolerance for English languages other than English being spoken in the classrooms. And so as an administrator in schools, I had to sort of walk that line between, okay, this is what the parents are demanding. And then how can I compassionately allow students to speak the languages and use trans-languaging? And the way I could do that authentically was say, hey, I speak all these languages. I understand that there's a value in immersing yourself in English, but I also get...

that sometimes I want to use French words when the English words don't work. So let's try for English as the language of inclusion and the language of common language, but also educate your friends as to what the words that you're trying to use, how those can be used by them as well. So I think that I came across as authentically trying to uphold a policy that I disagreed with because the parents wanted it and trying to educate the parents as well.

and then coming across as a language enthusiast and saying, like, let's just have all the languages and learn from each other and not be exclusive with our language. So I think that's how that kind of fit into my career. Now, there may be a teacher out there who worked for me who's going to go, that jerk was always enforcing the English language policy. But maybe they didn't see all the stuff I was doing behind the scenes to encourage the diversity of languages. you know, whatever. You can't win them all.

Norah Jones (26:04)

Okay.

I tend to use as wording for some of the things that I talk about with folks the idea that we have various tools that are in our toolbox. And that if we're going to build houses of language that we don't throw out the hammer because we've learned how to use a wrench. We don't throw out the wrench because we've learned how to use a saw. We continue to collect our tools, put them in the toolbox, so we pull them out when we need them and we're not trying to hammer in.

say a nail with the saw blade, but we get our hammer out at the time. I think that describe if you would what some of the strengths were because you were administering as well as teaching. So you have these different levels and I'm going to go to a third level in just a moment, but for the moment to take a look at how it felt to students and how

James Mattiace (26:46)

Yep. No, it's a perfect analogy. Yeah, that's perfect analogy.

Norah Jones (27:10)

parents and caregivers understood after a while the way that trans-languaging works and what it can do for the learning and also the psychology of those that are employing it. Spend a little time telling us about trans-languaging.

James Mattiace (27:27)

Yeah, I I don't

know. mean, definitely it's a third rail in a lot of places, That trends, the concept of trans-languaging. I just, so for the audience to know, I didn't teach language. Other than the two years I taught Latin, I was a primarily a social science teacher. So I taught AP and IB economics, and then I taught global politics, political science, international relations. That was, so I was teaching, all of my content was always delivered in English with,

Norah Jones (27:36)

Mm-hmm.

James Mattiace (27:54)

try to make connections to students' worlds through using other words for things, but it's primarily in English, in international schools, and also taught in US public schools. But the concept of translanguaging, I've always tried to depoliticize that word by saying it's about making meaning.

And if whatever you need, whatever student needs to make meaning, isn't that the most important thing? Who cares what language they do it in? Is that, is the meaning being constructed? And then as the teacher, how can you validate that that meaning is the correct meaning they've taken away, right? So, so that, so there needs to be a check for understanding and a way for that to get presented or evidence being given back to the teacher that the student understands the concept in whatever language they understand it in.

And so I've tried to de-escalate some of the conflicts that have come up with those teachers who come who would come into my office and say, this kid's always speaking in Chinese. I said, well, are they speaking Chinese because they're gossiping with their friend or they turn to their friend and asking their friend for an explanation so their friend can give them back the explanation in Chinese? Like, is it? Because one is, yeah, that's a behavior and that needs to be stopped because they shouldn't be gossiping in English, Chinese.

Swahili or whatever, they're not following the rules of the classroom or are they trying to make meaning? And once I would have that conversation with teachers without using the word trans-languaging, because that didn't necessarily need to be thrown around, that tended to give those teachers a frame or a lens as to when they needed to call it out and when they needed to investigate to find out whether the meaning had been made, you know, whether the...

evidence was there. So I think that's probably the best. And I would say now, not being in schools anymore, but working with educators. So I work with groups of teachers in refugee camps in Uganda, Kenya, and Jordan. And so we have the only accredited high school in the world. It's called Amala Education. refugees are able to achieve a high school diploma, an accredited high school diploma from the ASC and CS.

and then go on to university or entrepreneurship or whatever from there. And so we, and we have a very large language diversity in the classrooms. And the students are age 16 to 24 years old and bring all of their live experiences with them. So I do teacher training with the teachers to do pedagogy. 50 % of our teachers are refugees and the other 50 % are young teachers, early career who.

who somehow thought it would be a good idea to go live in refugee camp for a year. So I have a lot of pedagogical, basic pedagogy that we do, but language in the classroom comes up quite a bit. Because in the Kenyan camps, you'll have Somali and you'll have Swahili and you'll have other languages that are being spoken. Arabic is being spoken as well. And I try to present that same lens to them that these are students with...

know, traumatic life experiences who are coming to school in English because they want to get a high school diploma, but they're, they're wrestling with some difficult concepts. Um, cause it's a fully accredited high school. And so let them, let them figure it out. Just make sure that it's not being used to, to make fun of other students in the class or, know, to be used as a, as a, uh, a way to, you know,

make the classroom uncomfortable for somebody else

Norah Jones (31:05)

Nora Jones here. Please connect up with me on my website fluency.consulting to learn more about my guests, subscribe to know when podcasts, videos and blogs are released, to let me know if you'd like to be a guest, to get team humanity gifts for yourself and others, and if you can, to support my work with a donation.

That's fluency.consulting. I deeply appreciate your listening and sharing.

Norah Jones (31:44)

Where do you see the most hope in language in the world as we are living it right now and as we look into the future? What are those areas where you're like, language truly is going to be a beam of light that's gonna help us to find a way? What are some of the elements that you see?

James Mattiace (32:03)

that's a really good question. I don't know when this is going to air, but, as of right now, late January, 2026, there's a lot of stuff happening with migrant communities in the United States. and, and I don't know when this airs where that's where that will have progressed or regressed to. but where I see a lot of, there's been a lot of.

online activism, encouraging people to normalize speaking Spanish in public. So that in where there's migrant communities, that if people that look like you and I, which those who can't see the podcast, you and I look very white, that are walking around speaking Spanish in public, it destigmatizes those who are monolingual or very emerging bilinguals in English and Spanish. And so

I like that tactic. So that's hopeful to me that people have recognized, we can use our Spanish ability to make the environment more comfortable for other people and to destigmatize them. I thought that was a cool, I think it was a cool tactic. like, yeah, I thumbs up. know, it's as cool as the frog in Portland and you know, all the other various things that are out there. ⁓

Norah Jones (33:02)

That

is an interesting strategy, very, very effective strikes me.

James Mattiace (33:10)

And it's also at the same token, seeing on news reports, seeing, for example, very obviously white Minnesotans going and speaking in Spanish to and also in Somali to, people who are being under, under pressure, attack, whatever, from ICE agents and going in and saying, I'm here as an outsider, but I can speak your language because they took the time to figure that out.

And that's, that's cool too. I see that's helpful. Moving into broader picture, broader scope stuff. I don't know. think there's a movement, the trans-languaging movement, excuse me, movement in international schools is encouraging. It's way more progressive in international schools than it is in US public schools. Movements towards home language support. A lot of schools really recognizing the, all of the

assets that students bring with them with their home languages and try to preserve those and get partnering with community resources. I see this all the time in the international school community. Lots of schools are doing it right. There are still lots of schools that are still hanging their hat on that English language value for parents. And so they're less willing to do it. But as the more prestigious schools move into this space and aren't losing parents as a result.

I think it becomes safer for other schools to do it. So that's encouraging and that's positive and hopeful. And I'm not enough of a language person to be the expert or authority on trans-languaging, whether that's the best strategy. I do know it's one the more inclusive strategies, but I can't tell you what the... There's lots of research out there. If you don't immerse, do language instruction. I'll leave that to Greg Roberts and other people who...

are much more proficient in that to talk about it. It's not my area of expertise, and I will stay out of that. But it's just the tone that it sets, I think, is part of it. And then, I don't know, I think, hopeful language-wise.

Norah Jones (34:49)

Yeah.

James Mattiace (34:55)

I think it's just a very...

I've been working for years to make bilingualism, multilingualism a marketable skill. And that it becomes valuable, like just the growth in the global seal of biliteracy, just the number of people that are reaching now, they're putting that on their LinkedIn or their resume. They're going and getting the seal of biliteracy because it's seen as a valued thing to have.

I see that as hopeful and positive and a trend that I hope continues in that direction.

Norah Jones (35:23)

Thank you for bringing that up. And I did want to call attention to the fact that, for example, on your LinkedIn profile, the thing that you have up there is about assessment and specifically assessment reform. And yes, there are plenty of educators around the world that listen to this podcast, but there are also people for whom I would love for you with your skillset, James, to broaden out what assessment means to people.

James Mattiace (35:35)

Mm-hmm.

Norah Jones (35:50)

what the role is of taking a look at benchmarking where people are when we're talking about something as key to humanity as language is. What kind of assessment and assessment reform and role of what that brings to people's hearts and minds, both the learner and those around them, can you share with us?

James Mattiace (36:11)

Sure. Well, first I have to put on my Latin hat and the word assessment comes from the Latin word, esisteri, which means to sit beside. So like the original concept of assessment and where we draw this root word is the professor or the docent or whoever sitting alongside the student and

having an evolving conversation of that student's understanding. So just if we got back to that root of the word, that would be an ideal case. Now, when you've got 35 students in front of you in 40-minute blocks or 40-minute periods, that becomes a little bit more difficult, which argues that maybe we shouldn't have 35 students in front of you in 40-minute periods, but that's separate argument. Yeah, but those are tied together.

Norah Jones (36:50)

Separate discussion.

James Mattiace (36:56)

I'm mostly pushing in the work I've done for assessment form is around the concept of proficiency based or standards based, excuse me, moving towards competence based, excuse me, and that.

with languages specifically, don't, language learning is not a linear process. We learn in fits and starts. We have plateaus, we have ebbs, we have regressions in language learning. I know for myself, whenever I go take a week long intensive Spanish class, I actually come out poorer in Spanish for the first few days afterwards because I overthink everything. But ⁓ it's like, am I supposed to be using the subjunctive now? Am I not supposed to be using, you know, it's just, get all.

Norah Jones (37:28)

interesting.

James Mattiace (37:33)

wacky. you know, do those are language learning is not linear. so but but in schools, it's expected to be go to chapter one, chapter two, chapter three, Spanish one, Spanish two, French one, French two, right. And so, you know, native French speakers with, you know, we don't have grammar, like there's all this other wrinkles that are in there. And so what I've argued for is that a concept of proficiency base that you students achieve at certain levels in whatever subjects they're in.

and they're assessed against those proficiency standards. So can you do the following? Yes, then that's where you are right now. More importantly, here's your success criteria or your learning progressions as to here's where you're go next. Like, this is what it looks like when you can get to this next level. And so here are your internal goals. That's the most basic, least arguable with concept. Now that, when you throw that into a school and you say, okay, let's do that.

then all of the other things come up and those are all arguable, right? Those are all, everybody can pick a corner and everybody can fight over it. And so my approach, having led two schools to a fully based standards based grading and reporting. So not reporting grades, the traditional grades on a report card at all. And with the first school, it took five years to get to that point. And I spent the first year,

saying to the faculty that assessment is deeply personal. It's tied into every aspect of our job as teachers. It dictates our classroom behavior management plans. It dictates how we structure the day. Assessment is part and parcel of everything. And so I said, I'm not going to tell you you're doing it wrong. We're just going to have a year-long conversation about why we grade and why do we do this thing? What's the purpose of it?

And then we're to come to three, three Venn diagrams. And I said, we're going to talk about what we believe, what the literature says and what we do. And the intersection of those three is going to be our policy. And we're going to take a long time to discuss all three of those things. Um, and so that was, that was my approach to every assessment reform conversation is if you're not starting with that conversation about why do we grade? Like, why are you assessing then?

Norah Jones (39:26)

you

James Mattiace (39:41)

then you can't get into the how and the what because you you get to get hung up. Once you come to that understanding of the why, a lot of those barriers go away and a lot of those resist. A lot of that resistance goes away. But too often schools are rushing to get to a how or a what and they don't have the conversation with their community, including parents. And it's very important that parents are involved in this conversation.

So my wife and I started an organization called the Assessment and Competency Collaborative. And we basically have created five standards for what a standards-based school should look like that's doing it right. And we offer this accreditation to schools that can apply for the accreditation. They submit the evidence. We measure them against our five standards and say, yes, you are doing it at the initial level. You're doing it at the standard level. Or you're doing it at the advanced level.

and then we award certification just to kind of impose order on chaos. But also because we recognize having worked in schools that sometimes some obstacles can be kind of nudged out of the way if you say, we have to do this because we want to get the accreditation. And so where there might be a sticking point, can help massage that sticking point by giving school principals and superintendents.

the ability to fall back on us and say, well, yeah, but these guys are saying we have to do it. So we have to do it. So that's the assessment and competency collaborative. That's what we're trying to do around assessment reform and language proficiency is a huge part of that. The idea of that, that students are being assessed on their proficiency levels, not on, did they complete the unit test for chapter one? Right. And so on and so forth or unit test.

Unit one.

Norah Jones (41:24)

You know, James, that's your thank you for that very thorough description and very clear because part of what we know, those of us that have been in language education, is that we're glad to be in the educational scene with language. But we also know that language being the human experience, through which all content comes, that it's a little bit of a

James Mattiace (41:49)

Mm-hmm.

Norah Jones (41:49)

square peg round hole or vice versa probably and it strikes me that what you just said is that assessment and assessment approaches that are creative that are based on how language works could potentially be a bit of a of a

opportunity to change the way that language plays a role in curriculum, not to disappear, goodness knows, but to be looked at in the way that it actually is different from content-based items or should be, working in the direction of the proficiency and competency outcomes. I just, I'm,

I'm doing that even without a question at the end because it's such an important moment to be able to say, how do we help people to recognize that the speaking of languages and the learning of multiple languages is a very human experience forever. And that if we haven't in the educational scene, we have to take a look at how we approach it and how we indeed assess it.

in order to recognize its uniqueness. Any of those elements that I've just blathered on there about something that relate to some of the philosophical as well as the practical things that you've been doing?

James Mattiace (43:04)

Yeah, all of them. you're yeah, you do you you you're hitting right into the meat of the Of the core of the of the struggle is that we have these structures that have been put in place Because we decided Long ago. That's how we were gonna measure learning And there's a there's another podcast I listen to ⁓ it's called the future learning design podcast and

with Tim Logan and recently had a guest on that was talking about the loss of Indigenous learning in Africa because the colonial powers came in and said, no, this is how you assess, this is how, this is how we learn, this is how you assess it. And so all of this Indigenous knowledge was considered not important, right? And so, and that in a way, although we didn't have that same experience in the United States,

because we'd already removed indigenous culture and indigenous learning a long time earlier before we standardized the school system. But we're in this measurement cycle where we can't, and we can't seem to break out of it unless you do something radical. And then that gets into all kinds of other issues as to who you're serving and, you know, is that what your community needs? And so I think what your point, what you just said is that the

the way languages are taught and the way we understand how to measure students understanding of language was, you said square peg round hole. Like we tried to fit that nonlinear process into a linear process. And as a result, we have all these people who say, yeah, I took two years of Spanish in high school, but I don't remember a word. And that

that a sad, also it's fixable. but it does require a stripping down on the entire system. It can't be dealt with in isolation. Dual language programs. Yes. Like those are, those are places where that is happening. you know, but all too often it stops at fifth grade, you know, it doesn't go on to the middle school though. There is progress happening going on towards middle school and beyond. But, ⁓ yeah, I think the philosophical question you raised is

Does the entire system need reform? And my personal philosophy is yes, but also I think we can, once you delve into assessment reform, once your school starts taking that journey and starts looking at and examining the why we grade, all these things that you do start popping up as like, well, why don't we do that? Like, that's, that's silly. Like we've been doing that for 40 years, but why? We never even questioned it. and so once you,

pull on that thread, it's like, well, well, this is connected to this. This is connected to our seat time requirements, which those go out the window. this is connected to our, so clearly our attendance policy is no longer valid. And this, know, what about late work? Well, that goes out and like all these other things all start collapsing, which scares people. People are very scared. Greg Mullen, who's a great guy. He's, he's one of our

or stable of advisors for the assessment competency collaborative. He does a lot of stuff on change management. And he's got this graphic where he shows within the circle of change, because there's always a cycle. Because once you complete the change, there's new change that needs to be embarked on. But there's a regressive pattern inside that circle. imagine a big circle going clockwise. Within that circle is a counterclockwise regressive circle because people go, ⁓ that's great. Let's do it. And then they get into the weeds and they go, my gosh, we can't do this. This is a sacred cow.

Right. so, but you can't, but the secret cow can't stay there anymore because it's getting in the way of all the other things. And so that's scary. And so it's this, it has to be an open dialogue and it has to be the concept that, that language learning, the way it's being taught isn't working. We'd like to fix it. We got to fix all these other things too. So why don't we all get together and talk about it rather than just being one push in one direction. It's just, it's the, it's the dialogue, which

Yeah, it's language.

Norah Jones (46:41)

It sure is. It sure is. So what do you

see coming up in the near future? Just in general, on the planet, with regard to language, understanding languages, working with language.

James Mattiace (46:53)

I don't know if I have enough, I'll give a very amateur like lover of languages, but not a student of language learning, just a learner of language, but not a student of languages. That I think the...

I know I'm going to limit this to my circle of people is that there are always friends of mine who are coming up and saying, I want to pick up a second language. they have these conversations frequently with people who say like, can we come down to Costa Rica and, you know, spend a couple of weeks and do language courses down there. and so I, I, don't know if it's just because I've hit that age of 51 and I've got friends who are now

you know, similar age where they've got time on their hands now, their kids are raised, they're looking at back of their life and wishing like, I wish I had learned this language or they more time to travel. But I feel like that's a trend among friends that there's more interest in learning language or more interest just in languages in general. And, you know, and I think

I don't know, I'm not being paid by Duolingo, but I think Duolingo is, I don't know how many millions of subscribers they have on it. I have friends who constantly posting on LinkedIn, like there's streaks and, not LinkedIn, on Facebook. Nobody posts that on LinkedIn. That's beneath LinkedIn. That's a Facebook post. Posting like there's streaks in Duolingo or what's the other one? Link, I think is what it's called.

Norah Jones (48:00)

.

James Mattiace (48:07)

So yeah, just, my own circle of friends and that's a positive trend, people moving more towards language. I don't have enough expertise to address the rest of it, what's going on in the rest of world. Your other guests are well more positioned to address that.

Norah Jones (48:15)

Right, right. So

what do you think that language has to say to a world where there's so many challenges among people so much?

So many things going on where people are taking a look at pressures and changes and so forth. What does language have to say to people that are looking to their own personal futures?

James Mattiace (48:43)

Yeah, I think you did an episode with some French speakers who were going to Cote d'Ivoire where they were looking at the colonization of language and the French French versus Francophonie French. And that I remember that I remember thinking on that episode.

Norah Jones (48:49)

Mm-hmm.

James Mattiace (49:02)

Wow, there's there's there's all this opportunity for really constructive dialogue with people who speak the same language, but do it from different dialects or with different influences that come up to talk about shared commonality, that they have a shared language. there's there's differences and there's reasons for those differences. Right. And, you know, how those evolved. I think when we're talking about

some of this pressure, a lot of it is post-colonial, right? And a lot of it is developing countries attempting to reclaim what was stolen from them and what was forced upon them, but still speaking the colonial powers language, right? But done slightly differently. think there's a really good opportunity to re-enter the conversation.

Norah Jones (49:39)

Yeah.

James Mattiace (49:47)

Enter the conversation in a different way and look at it through. Here's why the people in the DRC in Congo, this is why their French is spoken the way it is due to the history of the Belgians and all the other issues that happen. and this is using the experiences and that it helps those more, colonial powers, prior colonial powers to go, okay. We can, we can have a dialogue about how the language.

changed because of things that happened. think that's a good starting point because I don't think it can get intensely personal, clearly. Like I know a lot of Moroccans who are very upset when you call their language a dialect. that is very offensive to lot of Moroccans and they will get into it with you. And so it has a there are a lot of flashpoints that could come up, it's done in this

seek to understand, seek to collaborate, and make some collective understanding of how languages have been forced and changed and embedded on people. Even Nahuatl, the Spanish came, they met the Aztecs, they conquered the Aztecs, they started learning their language, and the Nahuatl doesn't fit into the Spanish constructions. So when the friars were writing the

the dictionaries translating Nahuatl to Spanish, they changed the format of Nahuatl so it would fit the Spanish construction. And so even though it's not widely spoken anymore, you 1.5 million people and me, there's like, there's still, there was change. So even our professor in the class, he said like, what I'm teaching was not the language of the Aztecs. He's like, it's the language that was changed by the Spanish.

Norah Jones (51:07)

my goodness sakes.

James Mattiace (51:22)

But those are great conversations to have, right? Like those are, and there's a lot of Spanish speakers who are, know, abiding by the rules set in Madrid. Some of those words were taken from Navas and brought back and put into the you know, the official, the royal dictionary. And so, so like having like, where's the origin of our language? Where's the origin of the colonial powers receiving? How has their language been changed by the authorities that...

Norah Jones (51:24)

Yes.

James Mattiace (51:46)

or the organizations or countries that they took over. So yeah, that would be my one idea is having discussions between prior colonial and post-colonial powers about how languages have been impacted by the process of being a colony and how that has led to all kinds of other things. And we can do the American-Brit conversation too. Like we can talk about the words that we say purposely, differently, thanks to Merriam-Webster.

Norah Jones (52:07)

Yeah.

James Mattiace (52:12)

that are said in the UK.

Norah Jones (52:12)

Yes.

spelled differently just because dog-gonnet. I think it's always been fun to listen to folks from Britain that like poor Americans, they don't have enough money to have aluminum. They've lost a whole syllable just because. You know, it's interesting. We got the guy, we got the Webster guy.

James Mattiace (52:17)

Just, just because.

thought right

And I misspoke, I meant to Noah Webster, not Miriam Webster. Sorry, Miriam Webster's the dictionary, Noah Webster was the guy.

Norah Jones (52:39)

You know, it's interesting. love the way you just did that, James, because we have these little conversations there, you know, they're kind of fun conversations on the side. And I know that there are some very serious minded people listening to this podcast who have done quite a bit of work on this. But imagine if this were to emerge into more of a global phenomenon where people were able to say, we have an option, a thing going on here that we need to do.

James Mattiace (52:39)

them.

Norah Jones (53:05)

the concept of Englishes, the concept in, at least we can say it with a plural being clearly heard in English, the Frenches, Spanishes, and so forth, where that is our moment to sit down, have a cup of tea so we don't get all excited, and talk about in a coherent and rational kind of way where we indeed have merged.

James Mattiace (53:12)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Norah Jones (53:32)

together and why and what some of the impacts are, just understand each other better. Imagine that as a wonderful opportunity to open doors, minds and opportunities.

James Mattiace (53:44)

Yeah, think it is that it's that opening minds piece that you just said. I think that's is that. ⁓

I also believe, and this may be naive, but I believe that people always like discovering new things about their language. Root words and cognates and port bentos and all these other things that come up that they, I believe for most people, it bears some level of interest. That there's somebody, I never knew that. There's a YouTube channel I watch about languages that they're always talking about.

roots of different words. find it's fascinating, but I also, you know, I fully accept that I'm a nerd when it comes to this stuff, but I have to believe in my heart of hearts that most people go, yeah, that's cool. That's interesting. So if you can start with that opening a mind of curiosity and like, why do they say this? And then getting into that John Porter always talks about like, there's no right English, right? English is constantly evolving. And although there is...

there are those, you know, conventions that are universally accepted or mostly university, mostly university accepted, like language is evolving and what the younger generations are doing to English is just as valid as what Samuel Johnson did to English. it's, you know, there's still, there's still a, um, an evolution happening and it's not finished. It's not a finished product. So I think that that's an easy.

It's a mildly controversial, but not to the point where you would go to war over it. ⁓ But it can lead to understanding.

Norah Jones (55:06)

Yeah, there you go.

Well, that would be a relief to have that and that whole language is alive. It's alive. It's wonderful concept in general. James, let's take a look at the fact that you have been very patient answering a variety of questions and also just giving us such great insights. But before we pull it together, want you to say to yourself, OK, this is fine, but I have

James Mattiace (55:14)

Yep, exactly.

You

Norah Jones (55:31)

this to say before we're done. I want to make sure we're not done with this conversation today until I've had Nora's listeners hear this from me, understand this from me. It can be a reemphasis of what you've already done or it can be something brand new that I just didn't ask you about that is on your heart.

James Mattiace (55:51)

Thanks for that opportunity. I didn't come on today with any sort of mission or prime directive. So I don't have anything at the ready. But through the course of our conversation, I think the theme that really kind of got pulled together is that the way we learn language, if we're open to learning language, and that's a whole other separate piece.

as educators and as learners of language and as promoters of multilingualism that if we push towards that language learning is a good thing, but it should be done in the learner's own speed and when the learner is ready to do it and for whatever motivates that student to do it, or learner, lifelong learner. I know there's a story that I think Linda

Eggnots tells about a kid who learned German because they were on a gaming. They were gaming with their friends and the friends, guys they gained with were all German speakers. So the kid went and taught himself German so he could talk crap to the kids. Now, whatever your motivation happens to be, but when it's the right time, you'll engage in it and people will leap over buildings to learn a language that they desperately want to learn. Even if it happens to be in another language, learn a third language and a second language.

Norah Jones (56:43)

you

James Mattiace (56:57)

They'll still go and spend the time. so, so yeah, that'd be my one takeaway is let's make learning language the goal, but let's not make it so that it's linear and let it happen and occur naturally so that people are want to continue learning those languages and want to keep using them in whatever way possible. So that's my, that would be my ax to grind, but you forced me into it I didn't, I didn't have one in the first place.

Norah Jones (57:16)

for real.

There

you go. Sorry, I forced you into it. And I'm going to add to the fact that to just ask you to one more personal item on your LinkedIn page, you have the graphic that demonstrates Ikigai. And could you describe what Ikigai is and why you have it as the predominant visual that goes along with your identity?

James Mattiace (57:44)

Okay. So for those who aren't familiar with Ikigai, it's the Japanese concept was developed by, I just forgot his name. think he's Canadian into this, into this Venn diagram. I have the name, I'll send you the name. can insert the audio link later. But basically if you imagine four Venn diagrams, and one is do what you love. Do second one is do what you're good at.

do what the world needs and do what you can get paid for or a remuneration of some sort. And so if you put those four together, that's what you're supposed to do. It's a piece of the center is what you're supposed to be doing. And for most of my career, I thought that was being an educator in a formal setting, either in a school, as a teacher. then later when I got dragged kicking and screaming into administration and then discovered that I actually enjoyed it.

So those two things were what I thought my point was. And then I just got very disillusioned with the system that I was forced to promote and support, just the whole system, not just a particular aspect of it, just the concept of schooling and realized that what I really should be promoting is learning. so then I said, okay, well, I'm not gonna do that anymore.

I resigned at the ripe young age of 47. And now my guy is to change the system. The problem is the getting paid to do that part isn't so strong. So it's what the world needs. It's what I'm good at. It's what I love to do. Getting paid to do it, not always part of the fourth leg of the stool is sometimes not always there. But

Norah Jones (59:02)

now.

James Mattiace (59:11)

But I enjoy the work that I do get to do and I enjoy the people that I get to do it with and it's constant learning and growing myself. And so, yeah, so I keep that Ikegai on my LinkedIn page because it's that reminder that when I think, oh man, you know, I should just go get like a nine to five job and do the, you know, I think back. That's not what I'm supposed to be doing though. I'm in that center piece right there. That's what I should be doing. So it's a constant reminder.

I cannot remember the guy who's coming up with the graphic, but I'll figure it out. I have him somewhere in a chat.

Norah Jones (59:41)

You will, you will,

you will. That's great. You will. And thank you. Thank you for describing what first what, but especially the why in your case. That's really great. Good luck with everything. Good luck with everything that you're doing.

James Mattiace (59:52)

Thanks. Appreciate it.

Norah Jones (59:54)

Thanks for joining us for this conversation. And I hope that what you heard helps you to spend time reflecting at what it means to be human and learning the original language or languages that you began with in your life, brand new languages.

especially how it feels to connect to others through the amazing miracle of language. Spend some time thinking about why your story is unique, why your story can instill joy, wonder, and curiosity in others. Come and join me. Take a look at fluency.consulting and let's share our stories together.