Stay Ahead Of Cancer with Dr Robert Hoffman

Cancer doesn’t just grow, it learns. Joe Grumbine and Dr. Robert Hoffman dig into a hard truth that too many patients discover late: tumors can change their behavior, their markers, and their vulnerabilities, even when a treatment plan looks “stable” on paper. We start with what sparked the conversation, a metastatic breast cancer case where old numbers look fine and a new number shifts, then use that as a launch point for how cancer adapts over time.

We unpack why drug resistance can emerge after long stretches on the same therapy, why “recurrence” may be better understood as cancer regrouping, and how that changes the way you think about timing, sequencing, and strategy. Dr. Hoffman explains methionine dependence, methionine restriction, and oral methioninase, with a clear warning against naive single-solution thinking. We also get into adaptive therapy concepts like cycling treatment, plus the real-world tools that help you stay ahead: PET CT and other imaging, cancer-specific blood markers, and the growing role of circulating tumor DNA and circulating tumor cells in precision oncology.

We also talk nuts and bolts that matter in daily life: why comparing lab results across different labs can mislead, how insurance realities shape testing, and why off-label targeted therapy is often just common sense when the genetic target matches. The conversation touches on emerging and controversial areas too, including ivermectin research signals and why intravenous vitamin C alongside chemo keeps coming up in clinical data conversations.

If you want a practical, clear-eyed framework for long-term cancer surveillance and personalized cancer care, press play. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs a smarter plan, and leave a review with your biggest question about monitoring or resistance.

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Cancer Changes And Patient Reality

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy Living Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Grumbein, and today we have back with us Dr. Robert Hoffman. Robert, welcome back to the show. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Glad to be on this show.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Well, you know, we we have our weekly meeting, and I talk about all the time and the importance of it. And we have a new uh patient that's been joining us, and she's got a pretty serious situation. She's got a metastasized breast cancer that is, you know, changing. And we were talking about how she got some tests, lab reports, and all of a sudden the numbers that she used to be looking at are fine, but a new number changed. And I want to talk a little bit about cancer and its its ability to change and sort of you end up like people think you just go and get treated, and it's not that you engage and you have to find an answer, but when you find that answer, you don't stop, you have to keep finding an answer, and you have to keep checking, and you have to keep looking for anything different. And I don't think people realize, you know, especially the people that like just go to the doctor and do what they say. What's your thoughts on on the approach of you know, the people that just go that go to the oncologist and they they get their diagnosis and they say, Well, here's what we're gonna do, and they say, Okay, doctor, you know, I'll do what you say, as opposed to you know being aggressive and and and trying everything you can to find out everything you can.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Well, Joe, the very fact that some of your cells turn into cancer cells and made a tumor mean they means they made a very big change. Very big. So the cancer having the cells having become cancerous, they don't stop changing. Otherwise, they couldn't have become a cancer, which is a huge change from what it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

So maybe people don't realize that that you know, like you don't catch cancer like a virus, you don't get cancer from you know inhaling something or or touching somebody, it's your own body, like you just said, going through a tremendous amount of changes, and and it starts out with maybe a few cells that do this, and usually, like your immune system recognizes troubled cells that aren't behaving correctly and takes them out, but they don't always. And the cancer cloaks itself sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

You think about a human body over a lifetime, it goes through about ten and sixteen zeros cell divisions. Wow, sixteen zeros after the ten. Wow. So and and a billion is what, like eight? Yeah, it's it's a billion, billion, billion, whatever it is. Wow, so genes mutate about every ten for af with six zeros divisions.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

So that means every gene in your body is probably mutating with ten with ten zeros during your lifetime. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

That's a lot of mutation, yeah.

Drug Resistance And Cancer Regrouping

SPEAKER_00 4:25

So I think you're right, probably the immune system is surveying them and keeping them out, or they mutated cells die. So these people who come out and say all cancer is due to genetic mutation, they don't know how to do the ninth grade arithmetic. So something very significant took place that overcomes all the body's resistance where it can undergo ten and sixteen zeros cell divisions. I don't even know what you call that number. It's a one heck of a big number. So the this cancer faked out the body that could handle ten to the sixteen cell divisions, and probably ten with ten zeros mutations in every gene. So what is that? It's it's some new form of life in in your body that can undergo extremely significant change to become a cancer cell that grows when it shouldn't grow, often grows faster than it should, not always, and doesn't stay where it should stay very often. That's called metastasis. So this this cancer, this monster has undergone something so big change that your your body, which can handle everything, can't handle it. So is that cancer gonna stop changing? Oh, I diagnose you, you I got diagnosed, I'm not gonna change anymore. Way it's gonna keep changing. And what we do, and and then you get probably all kinds of different variations on the theme, and then you gotta really watch out. So, like one of our patients, Jiro, she was taking this drug for three years and doing good, and all of a sudden the cancer exploded. Why is that? Probably the drug was keeping out all the cells that were sensitive to it, but some cells, because they can cancer cells, because they can change so readily, said, Hey, wait a minute, I'm gonna figure out how to get around this drug. And they started multiplying and multiplying and multiplying, and all of a sudden her cancer exploded. Three years flat, flat, flat for her marker, and then boom. Why because the cancer underwent another change and the drug was selecting against the cells that were sensitive, and these guys figured out how to get around the drug, and in so doing, often, maybe most of the time, we don't know, but enough of the time, when the cancer cell becomes resistant to a drug for reasons that aren't clear yet, a little bit clear, they become more malignant. Not always, but that can happen way too often. The drug resistant cell, when when the when the patient so-called recurs, which is a misnomer, didn't recur, it's regroup. And right, and when that happens, they they meet their demise very quickly, very often when they after the so-called recurrence, because those cells have been kind of they work their way around to overcome the drug or drugs, and in so doing, they became more malignant. So drug resistance is bad, recurrence is bad. So we gotta work it. We have to, as I say all the time on the zoom, we have to stay ahead of the cancer to prevent that happening.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Exactly. Now, with Shahiro's case, and I think with Dr. Exame's case and a couple of others, maybe even Gene, these are all people that have been very rigorously on the low methionine diet and taking methionine age. So that's what's most troubling to me is that do you think the cancer is finding a way around its methionine dependence as well?

Adaptive Therapy And Smarter Monitoring

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Well, no. So if the cancer becomes methionine independent, directly opposite to what happens with the cancer becomes drug resistant, and the cancer becomes methionine independent, and rarely so, it loses its malignancy. We are, Joe, we're not completely restricting methionine, right? That's true. So we're only partially doing it. We're taking the oral enzyme, we're washing our diet. It's not like having a dish of cells and you take all the methionine out. No, this is the human body. There's other the liver is pumping out methionine, so we're only partially restricting methionine, and that's a good thing, but it's in most cases we need help, right? We need a good drug or a good immunotherapy, we need help. We can't just do that, right? Right. That's too naive. So when we choose the drug to help us out, do we want to keep using that drug for three years like Chihiro and lett all these monsters start learning how to overcome the drug? No. So there, and then there's so I think we have to learn more about the so-called adaptive therapy, where you put the drug in, take it out, put it in, take it out, so that you don't have the drug consistently applied and letting the bad guys finally take over. So you kind of let have to let the less bad guys maybe grow a little bit and oh in and and compete out the more bad guys, because the more bad guys need more energy to grow because they're doing more things to become resistant. So there's something to say about treat, get off the treatment, treat, get off the treatment. That does not apply to methionine restriction. Methionine restriction, you stop, the cells start growing again. So we need to stay ahead. How we do this? We're we're you know, we're in the the new zone here, Joe. The usual guideline oncologists is this is way over their head. Oh, yeah. Way over their head. It's too much work, too. Huh? It's too much work for most of them. Too much work and too much brain power that's required. Right. Guideline oncologists have their guidebook. Okay, you got this, here's first line. Oh, you failed that. Here's second line. Oh, you failed that. Here's your clinical trial. Oh, you failed that. Okay, hospice. Right. So these guys treating the patients have very limited education. And I'm sorry to say, I think many of them have they're not Einstein, let's put it that way. Uh, so uh we have to stay ahead of the cancer, and how do we do that? I mean, one way is to surely not stay on the same drug for a long time. Oh, it's working, it's working, it's working, and then you wake up one day, it's not working, right? And you're in big trouble. So we don't want that. So we need to change out and maybe change, come back, change, come back. Uh, there's a lot of drugs out there, and and also the gene tests may help. We try to find we genes that may help. We look for the circulating cancer cells, they may help, or even the circulating cancer DNA, that may help. The more tests, the better.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah, I think that's critical because in some cases, you know, like with with breast cancer, I've heard of this a lot where they're they'll they'll do whatever their first line is. Maybe it's surgery, maybe it's radiation, maybe chemo, maybe some combination, and they say it's gone. They've tests for it, it's gone. And then weeks, months, or years later, it'll come back somewhere else, and it'll be different.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Breast cancer is the worst. It can it can stay dormant for decades, yeah. Hiding, and all of a sudden, maybe some bad guy's cell finally takes over. It took them 20, 30 years to do it, but finally they do it, and that's so breast cancer is the most sneaky of all the cancers. The most, oh yeah, I'm cured, sure, yeah. First of all, nobody's ever cured, in my opinion. You have to you get cancer, you have to be diligent. Whatever you got, you overcame the body's ability to go through 10 with 16 zero cell divisions and hang it overcame that kind of environment where the body is super protecting itself and it got around that. So cancer is no nothing to you know play with. It's always dangerous. Even when the bet the best like yourself, the best screening in the world, methionine pet, you're negative, you have to stay diligent all your life because even the best screening, probably the minimum number of cells it can see is a few million.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

So that's where we are, Joe. A lot of times we're fighting an enemy we can't see, but we assume it's there, and that's a good thing. I think everybody should be on methionine restriction. I think that's a no-brainer. That's just a good healthy lifestyle, and cancers don't sure don't like it. Oh, I I I agree. Yeah, he stayed ahead of stage four lung cancer for five years and he's still doing it. But he's got 13 metastases in his brain. He's gonna get a port on his head for the brain.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Really?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

He he's kind of leading the world and teaching us how to stay ahead of a cancer.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Now, a question about that.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

What would the purpose of the port in its brain to get the brain to get into the vessels that feed the brain? They're gonna deliver the medicine right there chemo in it to get those brain metastasis.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Wow, 13 brain metastasis, so they can get it right into where it's at and and leave it.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Well, hopefully, hopefully, I think so. This is way beyond my my expertise, but I hope so. Wow, wow, all right. I never heard of that before. He's staying ahead. He's staying, he's not playing whack-a-mole, he's a dead.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Yeah, and I think that's that's critical. So are there I mean, I know that that each different type of cancer, there are certain tests that can show you markers that would excuse me, would apply to that cancer, different antigens and different things that the body creates when the cancer is present. But are there aside from a pet CT or the methyline pet, are there any kind of screens that are kind of a just a general? Is there is there any kind of a of malignant mutation present? Is there anything that you can do on that note?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I don't know of any universal marker. Each cancer seems to have a marker that it predominates, but it could it could be called kind of a submarker to other cancers. That's all good. I don't know how universal it is to have circulating cancer cells or circulating cancer DNA that came from those cells. Those are good things to capture. We have ways to capture them and analyze their genes. I guess they're they're going to be very helpful. For my purpose, they're not what you're asking for, but right, it's more than they used to be.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

So for my purpose, you know, I had squamous cell carcinoma that has a specific antigen marker that I was able to test for. It came out negative right about the same time I got the MATPET. But the cancer that I had was HPV driven, so it also showed a spike in uh in that blood.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

HPV associated.

Staying Vigilant Without Living In Fear

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Okay, got it. HPV associated. So I had HPV virus, the cancer seemed to be somehow caused by it. And but that was a type of can you cut off just from that? Absolutely, absolutely. All right, so we're back. So, like I was saying, I've got this, I had this squamous cell carcinoma. I had a couple of tests that I was able to do that indicated certain things, like they did initially this viral test that indicated the presence of this virus on a huge level. And then once I got going with the chemo, that was gone. But the cancer was still there, but at least it gave me some indicator that the the thing that likely is causing it or at least contributing to it a lot wasn't there anymore. And then most recently I had that SCCA the antigen test that was looking for circulating tumor cells and it didn't find any of that. So the question is though, you know, in a year I'm gonna go back and get a METPE. Aside from a PET CT or a METPE, I mean, what if it was to come back, the odds are it wouldn't come back the same way it came the first time, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

It can come back anyway.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. It could do anything.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

It could come back in the primary site, it could come back as a metastasis.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Exactly. We don't know. We don't know, exactly. So I'm looking at obviously my life choices are gonna be probably the biggest determining factor in keeping it gone, keeping the diet strong, keeping the methioninase in my presence, the oxygen therapies, uh I'm I'm getting back into the ivermectin and the the sodium bicarbonate and a few other things. But aside from those things, you know, you can do things preventatively and you know, live the healthiest life you can, the, the, the, the, the, the least cancer-friendly life, I guess you could call it. But then the other side of it is like, I don't want to live my life thinking, you know, oh, I better check tomorrow, I better check tomorrow, because you know, that starts getting under your skin. Is there some kind of a regimen we could look at that would say, all right, if you follow along this way, you know, like you're saying, my biggest issue is that these tests only light up when you're already down the road. I mean, you're not, you know, you're not getting this, you're not finding out anything at a real early stage.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Well, the the the type of cancer you have doesn't really have a universal marker.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

So you need to get periodic imaging, Joe.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

And maybe the MetFet once a year, but the other stuff MRI or CT or glucose fat. I would tr try for every three months.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Fair enough. I mean I don't know if insurance are things you can work out with Dr. Song.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

He's so good at getting insurance.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

You know what I noticed with him? Remember originally when I was sitting with Dr. Castro and he had ordered the a piece of the tuber to go to the lab in Boston to get the genetic work done. My insurance rejected it. Well, Dr. Song somehow got that same genetic test done. I don't know if it was from the same lab or not, but insurance took it and I didn't get billed. So Dr.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Some are really different. Maybe looks at many thousands of genes. That's possible too. I think his one is is like the super test. Got it. And maybe super expensive, and there's look at 20 genes, and it's quite different.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Okay. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Uh I I don't know this, but I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yeah, yeah. Okay. But there isn't like, okay, so you know, they found these they found these genetic markers from the tumor that I had. But that's really irrelevant today, right? Like there's not partly relevant.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

I think a good part of them are probably conserved. But you have to assume there's going to be some new ones and maybe some that disappear. I don't know. It's it's it's a I can't answer it. Yeah, they I think what you should maybe assume.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm and you know, I'm having this conversation for all the people that have gotten themselves to a part where they think that they have it resolved or it's resolved for the moment. And and you know, trying to lay out a a pathway. You know, the first pathway was to get it gone. All right, so we we found that. We navigated, we we we did the hard work, we we we did everything we could, and and and we got the results. Now it's a different target. It's it's one thing to take something that you can see and make it go away. It's another thing to take something you can't see and keep it gone, and that's maybe even more different.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

It's tough, Joe. It's tough. The best advice I have is periodic imaging. Yeah, surely you want to talk about this to Dr. Song.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

I'm really pleased that he continues to give you Ketruda. Yeah, hopefully that'll continue longer.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Right. It sounds like he wants to do it for at least another through the next year, is what he was talking about. So that's so good, Joe. Yeah, so I'm looking at that, and you know, it's hard to say. It's it's one thing to take a drug and be able to see a result, it's another thing to take something like this immunotherapy and say, Well, I don't feel any different, but that's good. That means I don't have well, you don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

I mean, the the fact that you tolerate it so well, yeah, is a big plus. If it's we don't know if it's working or not, right has a chance to be working, and you tolerate it so you can keep taking it, so it's good.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah, and he's got the insurance paying for it, which is even better. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

So he's been in the business half a century, he knows how to deal with those insurance companies.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Well, and that's that's another that's another godsend. Well, you know, the other none of the other doctors that I dealt with would even make an attempt at anything difficult with that. They just say, ah, they're not gonna cover it, and and wouldn't even put an effort in. Now we were talking last last meeting, and you know, I'm gonna continually reference these meetings because you know I'm watching this new person, Kat, come in, and she's got a very difficult situation that she's dealing with, and she just did uh some blood work. She's going to Dr.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Castro and I I I want to interject there a little bit, Joe. Yeah, she's comparing tests from two different labs. That's a no-no. Right, right. The no-no, yeah. So we need to settle down in a lab right and compare over a few months, weeks, whatever, in the same lab.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

And I you know, for somebody like her who has you know, all this cancer and has to deal with it. I would want my test in a big lab. Yeah, fair enough, back office lab. That's I mean, I I don't know. That's not the back office lab can't do it. But the professional labs have the incredible automated machines that they have to keep they have to keep tuned.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

And they're doing so many of them, they got they're millions. They've got the experience, yeah. Big time.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yeah, not like the part-time nurse in the right office. It's different.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

I don't know. This we'll see what the girl does. She's very smart. Let's see.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Well, I know that, for example, when when I go in to see Dr. Song, initially he was doing it a lot. He's not doing it so much anymore, but he would take a sample of my blood before I do the infusion, and they were checking for certain markers to see if I was okay to do the infusion because the drugs were really difficult. So they were checking my blood cell count and certain things that would say if they were off the chart, they wouldn't give me the infusion. Where was this, Joe? Uh no, with Dr. Sung.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Okay.

Off-Label Drugs, Ivermectin, And Vitamin C

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Okay, so so when I get there, they weigh me, they check my vitals, and they pull a little blood, and they do an in-house test. That's that's a very rudimentary test. They go at glucose level. They just want to make sure you're alive. Exactly. And then that I'm okay to take that infusion. But many cases, as soon as I get the it go to get the infusion, Dr. Song will pull a big old vial or two of blood and he'll send that off to the lab to Quest or one of the other labs. And then they come back in a couple of days with a complete panel. Yeah. And I've noticed that some of the things they're testing for are identical, and the numbers aren't identical. So I'd say to myself, all right, well, I'm gonna probably feel a little more comfortable with the big lab's numbers just for that reason that you were talking about. And it was never anything that far out of range, but they weren't identical. And so that I see where you're coming from with that. One of the things we were talking about recently, and and I'm hearing more and more of this, are what they're calling quote-unquote repurposed drugs. And we know that a drug is a compound that causes one or more things to happen in the body, and in many cases, you know, they'll have one drug that's designed for a certain purpose, and then they'll discover, oh, wait, look at it, it does this other thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

This is a little bit of a misnomer sometimes, right? Most drugs, the newer ones, have been tested to hit a certain genetic target that may be predominant in a certain kind of cancer, and so the FDA approves it for that kind of cancer. Okay, other cancers can have the same target, and that's a new thing now. Okay, call it repurpose, whatever, use it off label. Off label is maybe a better term. There you go. And okay, this was approved for breast cancer, but I have stomach cancer, and it has the same marker, it has the same gene, yeah, gene mutation. I'm gonna use it, so it's off label, but it's really still on target.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

And do you see more of this happening?

SPEAKER_00 32:03

I don't know. You know, I'm not part of the oncology community, right? And but there was that big paper in Nature, whatever, a huge clinical trial showing you can find patients off-label that benefit from these drugs because they have the same target for which the drug was approved, but a different cancer. Who cares what the cancer is? You have a target, use the darn drug. Agreed, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Well, it then and that's a good thing, yeah. And even in a more extreme way, like Dr. Castro had prescribed to me an old flu drug that he's that's really repurposing, but yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Let's if it's not doesn't have a whole lot of side effects, let's give it a try.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Well, that was what he said. He says it's very, very, very safe. There's no, you know, there's no side effects from it. And he said it can help to flip some of the switches on that will help your immune system recognize the cancer. And I said, Well, I took it for it.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

That kind of thing is my opinion, it's worth a try.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Or even things like ivermectin, you know, though those are designed.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Of all the, you know, resurrected type of drugs or repurposed drugs. It's got a lot of it's got a lot of potential, and people just have to forget all the politics that was associated with it before.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Nothing to do with nothing, right? And be open-minded. And we've seen some fantastic results of ivermectin in the dish. It zaps the cancer cells big time without zapping the normal cells, so that's really good. Can it do that in the human body? We don't know yet, but there's potential.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

I love it. I think the next time we get on, I want to talk more about your experimentation methods and you know, we talk about simple.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

The real, real, real, real, real simple.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Yeah, but I mean, there's a lot of things people don't know anything about, you know. You talk about in vitro, in vivo, you talk about different cultures and mediums, and you know, you what's simple, we'll go over it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

What's simple to you that's here, Joe? Real simple, we'll go over it. Happy to do it.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Robert, we've covered a lot of ground today, and again, my goal is to you know get people to realize I keep coming back to the same answer, though. When I think to myself, where would be the place to find the most up-to-date information about cancer? And I keep coming back to our Zoom call. Like, there is no other place in the world that you could meet with a team of experts the way that we do, it's maybe not the same people every time.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Chemo drugs. Boy, can we learn from them? And yes, people taking the chemo drugs are doctors. Wow, right.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Exactly. And we have doctors doing you know different things like uh vitamin C infusions and all the things Dr. Eczume is doing.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

And this vitamin C is not Coacola. I mean, we we saw the clinical trial coming out of Iowa. There's hundreds of patients, and they're all taking chemo for pancreatic cancer, and the arm that was getting the vitamin IV vitamin C lived twice as long. But there you go. They had it published in some you know journal that the oncologists don't read. They don't read that rag. It was called uh redox or uh uh something, they don't read that, yeah. They don't read it, and they'll never read it. So it's wow, it's it's how do they call it now? Under the radar or whatever. Yeah, nobody's gonna see it, but we put the word out. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

The word out to everybody, but well, it's available to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

You save one man, you save a woman, you save the world. So we're helping people one by one, and there's no question in my mind that vitamin IV, vitamin C, especially for these cancers that are just like, you know, so you know, the doc says, you know, you got one one year or whatever. What do you got to lose?

SPEAKER_01 36:36

I agree, I couldn't agree more. All right, Robert. Well, it's as always, this has been a fascinating conversation. I I love getting into the weeds with you with this stuff, and I just want to thank you again. You know, I I I can thank you.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

And we we we wouldn't have this conversation if we weren't talking to each other.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Exactly, exactly. Well, we make a good team, I'll tell you that.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

We got a good team, we got a great team, and we have some terrific young doctors in our lab doing great work, leading the edge.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

I love it, I love it. Well, I can't wait to hear the next stuff coming out of your lab. And come back with a few new papers, Joe. I love it, I love it. Come back to see the new ones, some good new ones. I will be checking those out shortly. Thank you so much, Robert. It's always a pleasure to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Anytime, just let me know. I'm always glad to be on your show.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Excellent. Well, this has been another edition of the Healthy Living Podcast. I want to thank all of our listeners for making this show possible, and we will see you next time.