ACUMA ONpoint
ACUMA ONpoint
Mortgage Industry Backsliding: Risks and Responsibilities
The mortgage industry stands at a crossroads where diminishing regulatory oversight meets economic pressure, creating perfect conditions for a dangerous backslide in lending standards. Dan Sugg, Chief Mortgage Lending Officer with Michigan First Credit Union and a 31-year veteran of the industry, sounds a thoughtful alarm about the risks of regulatory cutbacks. Join him and Peter Benjamin, President of ACUMA on this thought provoking discussion surrounding the changes impacting the credit union mortgage industry, and what the future could look like if you don't stay vigilant.
Particularly concerning is the vulnerability of first-time homebuyers being approved at maximum debt-to-income ratios. Sugg shares a striking example: "We had members pre-approved in the morning that were denied in the afternoon based on their rate moving." This illustrates how precariously some borrowers are being qualified, with little buffer against economic changes.
As we navigate these changing times, staying engaged with industry associations, maintaining ethical standards regardless of the regulatory environment, and prioritizing sustainable homeownership over short-term profits will ensure we uphold what Sugg calls "the gold standard of home finance" worldwide. Tune in now to the conversation about protecting the foundation of American homeownership while ensuring fair access for qualified borrowers.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of ACUMA, its board of directors, its management staff or its members. The podcast discussion presented is conversational in nature and for general information only.
Speaker 4:Hello and welcome to Actors On Point Podcast, a series focused on sharing the stories of people who are making a positive impact in the credit union mortgage industry. I'm your host, peter Benjamin. Today, I am joined by Dan Sugg, chief Mortgage Lending Officer with Michigan First Mortgage. Dan, my friend, how are you doing today? I'm doing fabulous. That is good to hear. Now, dan, you are a legend in not just the credit union space but the mortgage industry. Our conversation today is something that I think not just credit unions but mortgage lenders as a whole need to hear. As always, I'm excited for the conversation. It's one that we've talked about at events. It's one that we talked about during our policy podcast. I've talked about it several times with our lobbyists. I know that I'm sandbagging, but I have to pause slightly, as always got to bring the hawk in. Justin, what is the latest and greatest happening over at Acuma? And, by the way, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm good, peter, how are you Living the dream? See, I'm telling you that's what I like to hear. And so over here at Acuma, we're not busy, it's the middle of spring. I mean, we're just kind of enjoying the flowers and the trees. No, I'm kidding, we just got back from Savannah, which was, I mean, that was amazing. That was absolutely stunning. That city has so much charm. The speakers, the sessions, they were absolutely fantastic. The networking was amazing. There was so much sharing and collaboration. I mean, I know you love the workshops, but for me, like the roundtable, those are always really exciting to see and just getting to see everybody share.
Speaker 4:How about that rock paper scissors?
Speaker 2:contest. You know, that was new, that was different. Um, if you were not there, you definitely missed a uh a hoot.
Speaker 1:If you what did?
Speaker 2:I miss that sounds amazing. So since it's down south, we gotta speak in that that vernacular it was a hoot yeah, a hoot a hoot, come on. I am from the South. I can pull those Southern roots out somewhere.
Speaker 3:Bless your heart, justin Bless, your heart there we go.
Speaker 4:Bless your heart. I like it Dan's throwing me off here, all right.
Speaker 2:Our next in-person event is, uh, just happening. In a few weeks, we're going to have our second focal point workshop of the year. It's going to be in seattle. Uh, what's going on? On june 3rd and 4th? There is still plenty of time to register. So if you missed the rock paper scissors tournament and if you missed the amazing sessions, don't miss this one. It's going to be fantastic. There might even be another rock paper scissors tournament.
Speaker 2:It's on the agenda just saying right, there is um, if you are able to come, if you're a credit union or accuso, um, we have a volume discount, so groups of two or more can actually get two hundred dollars off of each registration. So that's a little bit of a shameless plug to get you, to help get you there, um. And then, lastly, our make your mark annual conference. That's the last in-person event of the year. It's going to round us out. That's happening september 21st to the 24th in denver. Super excited, um, if you haven't seen yet, we have, um, a lot of big stuff planned. So check out the agenda. We have, the first time ever, acting is throwing. Not only are we going to have our reception, but we're going to have an after party as well. So the after party is going to start before the entire event, pretty much. But you know it's okay, it's not really an after party, but it's an after party for Sunday.
Speaker 4:It's a continuation. We don't. We need. We need to think of, like, a, a different name for the, the, the after party, since it's like day one.
Speaker 2:But yeah, okay, and and it can't be pre-gaming, right? I mean, I had no problem calling it a pre-game party.
Speaker 4:Okay, yeah, it's something, something. If it's, it's like literally on day one, it's not an an after party.
Speaker 2:No, not really. The after party is supposed to take after the party, right? No?
Speaker 4:Something like that.
Speaker 2:I think that's the way it goes, but we're going in reverse order. We're going to have such an amazing time there, so don't miss it. Registration is open. Head over to the Acuna site for more information. And again, we have the volume discount. So if you're registering a group of three or more in your credit union or CUSO, you can get $200 off of each registration as well. And then, outside of our in-person events, if you're looking for additional networking and educational opportunities, we have our Young Professional Network. Their quarterly meeting is happening next week, on May 22nd, so head over to the website and register. We have the Underwriting Network quarterly meeting happening on June 10th, so there's still a little bit of time there. And then our webinar series the Fast Tracks and Inside Tracks are happening year round. Our next one's coming up tomorrow, so you have plenty of time still to register for that. And then, lastly, our infamous On Point podcast. It helps keep the fun and learning going all year long awesome, uh, needless to say, we are quite busy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why it was sort of a joke in the beginning, but you didn't kind of latch on to the flowers and trees. I was trying to go hippie, but you didn't kind of join me sorry I was.
Speaker 4:I was day jeremy for a second about savannah.
Speaker 2:Still, I know that that's okay.
Speaker 4:No, that's all right, I just kind of dozed off. Anyways, all right, thank you very much, my pleasure. All right, dan. Yes, sir, all right, here we go. All right. So, like I said, excited for this conversation. But before we dive in, I always ask the same question first and I always end with the same question last, and so here we go.
Speaker 4:First question as always, I have to preface it like I always do the Acme's On Point podcast. It's a people piece. The idea is we want to learn more about the people who make a positive impact in our industry. You are one of those people. You are highly regarded as a thought leader. You are highly regarded not just in that credit union space but the mortgage industry. I mean, there's a reason why you are on. You know MBA's ResVog. I mean there's a reason why you sit on, you know panels. Throughout our events, throughout MBA's events, people look to you for guidance, to be that beacon.
Speaker 4:But the big question is and this is why this is always the first question we ask who is Dan Sugg? People want to know. I think that's why we want to dive into this as Aquas on Point podcast is because we want to peel back that layer, because all too often we listen to these podcasts and we always focus on leadership. We always focus on, you know, what are your thoughts on the economy? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What are your thoughts on the mortgage market? What's your thoughts on this? Regulatory issues. But we never actually, you know, focus on who we are as a human being, right, and so that's why the Atkinson Point podcast was established to figure out what makes us tick. And so here we go. What makes Dan Sugg tick? Who is Dan Sugg? First, question out who is Dan Sugg.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it probably. First of all, thank you for having me on the podcast today. It's it's been quite an honor to be asked and certainly I look at these opportunities, really get to know the audience a little bit better and certainly learn a bit more about the industry. But if you look back at my career, I didn't start in the mortgage business. I started in the manufacturing business and it really was a family-run, kind of convenient thing to do. After secondary education was to jump into the family business and ultimately I would probably still be there if that didn't come to an end, really not in my own volition, but through a sale. I ended up finding myself looking for a job and I went to the last person, terry Conway. He's still in the business. I went to him because he had just done my mortgage we had just built a home and I said, man, he drives a nice car and seems to know what's going on and I think he really ultimately would be able to give me a good look at the mortgage business. And almost 31 years later, here I am.
Speaker 3:I started as a loan officer here in Michigan, like a lot of people, got a box of cards and a finger pointed in that direction, saying, hey, you need to go call on that territory and find some loans and you know, really, a week's worth of training and you're out making it happen. And I found very early on that you know in the 90s if you will that the bar for education in our industry was pretty low. And I said, if I'm going to make this, I need to feel confident, I need to train myself, and that's really kind of how I got my basis for the rest of my career. Couple that with some very early advice from my brother who was in the business. He said align yourself with an organization that shares the values of what you want to accomplish. And it was pretty early that I joined Michigan Mortgage Lenders Association it was called something different back then and I started to network with people like yourself, peter, like Justin, people in the industry that had knowledge of different ways outside of what I was currently accustomed to in my job of doing this business. And I started to get a reputation that I was willing to do the hard work, that I was willing to learn the processes and certainly the procedures and the guidelines and, before you know it, like any good organization, you're really good at this. Let's promote you to a leader.
Speaker 3:And I became an assistant manager, I became a manager, I became a regional and just started working my way up and at some point I felt like that was a higher calling for me than slinging loans every day. And make no mistake, I took great pride in being a top LO in this country At one point in probably the slowest year in our mortgage business in 2000,. I did at that time over 400 closings personally and that was a big number back then. I mean the average loan amount obviously was probably $80,000. It was the year 2000 and it was mostly purchased but it was hustling to get there and I take great pride in that. I made sales trips every year and I felt like that was the pinnacle of my success.
Speaker 3:But then I realized I can help other people grow and, given that I spent 10 years in manufacturing before I got in this business, I tended to be older than most people around me. So I started mentoring salespeople, grew areas and then I took an opportunity to join a bank and I took a job with LaSalle Bank to be a regional manager in Michigan and helped grow that to well over a billion dollars in origination every year and, as you can say, the rest is kind of history and I followed very briefly we'll go into the story here I followed the pattern of our business. Banking was really the biggest, largest share of the business in the early 2000s. Then you get past the financial meltdown of 2008, 2009, and then it started to shift to independent mortgage banks and I felt that if I was going to continue to grow in my acumen in the mortgage business, I needed to align myself in that area of the business. Banks were kind of pulling back and so I spent about eight years eight and a half years on the independent mortgage bank side, helping grow three different companies across this nation and opened branches in I think at the last count I think it was 28 states.
Speaker 3:I'd been part of going in and building branch networks for privately held independent mortgage banks across this country. And, peter, that's how you and I passed I was actually running, or became to pass our paths crossed. I was running a company in Horsham, pennsylvania, and I went to the New Jersey Lenders Association you were looking for an opportunity, I believe, and we talked there and got to meet you with our CME designations and understand what it is that you did and built that network and I have those all across this nation and I think that's where mostly you know my reputation in this industry comes from is the network that I have been able to build throughout the country. There isn't really a state that I don't know somebody in. I had a call with Alan Fowler yesterday and Alan's in New Mexico and I know like three people now in New Mexico and I was like I've never even been to New Mexico and certainly you spent the entire population of New Mexico.
Speaker 3:You just met the entire population of New part. Engaging and advocating and involving and engaging with the association is the part where the real value is and that's what I've really focused outside of my day job on is building that network for me and it certainly has served me very well. I sit on a number of advisory boards today, both with Freddie Mac and LendersOne and in my involvement with MBA, certainly with the ResBog committee. I'll be chairman of ResBog, a vice chair now at ResBog next year and sitting on the board of directors for MBA. It's been eye-opening to me the level of certainly connections that I've been able to build and access and help me become a better, stronger person in this mortgage industry.
Speaker 4:Okay, that was perfect. Perfect, which kind of is an excellent segue to the topic and why I'm so excited about it and why you are the perfect person to talk about this topic. And, like I said, this is a topic that we have talked about several times at our events and on this podcast, but you know the policy episodes. It is the idea of backsliding that our industry could potentially do as a result of the things that are happening in DC and, as you and I both know, and as we've discussed and read in various publications and watched on the news, the administration and the things that the lawmakers are currently doing are radically changing our industry in ways that we have not seen since Dodd-Frank was established Right. But in this case, it's a reversal of things that we have been doing since Dodd-Frank Right, we're basically turning back the clock, yeah have been doing since Dodd-Frank.
Speaker 4:Right, we're basically turning back the clock and so you know, the conversation is really focused on you know that, like you and I said, you know that, backsliding, the changing of gears and going back in time, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004. Do we go back to that time of? You know, heaven forbid. You know all day. And subprime lending and no doc. You know that's 620, 95, no doc. And all of a sudden, everyone, if you have a breath, you know a heartbeat and you know, you know just a name, you can get alone. I mean, are we doing this? But I know you have some thoughts on this and I want to hear from you and I know our listeners want to hear from you on this. But you know things that are happening at HUD, cfpb, the GSEs. I mean what I think at this point in time. Here we are, you know, early to mid-May. You know it was about three weeks ago. I mean what the CVB laid off, what 1,200 staff members.
Speaker 3:Yeah, last week certainly, and you know. So first of all, let me preface this a little bit.
Speaker 4:This is all Dan. Yeah, this is all Dan, no one else.
Speaker 3:All Dan, I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone but this old guy sitting in the seat. And my fear isn't so much Alte, I mean that's. Certainly we know the mistakes there, but I equate it to dismantling the state police in your respective state. And while the speed limit signs are still up, we know there's nobody on the road to enforce them, or at least we perceptionally think that, based on what we're reading and seeing and that propensity in an entrepreneurial driven business like mortgage has people start pushing the envelope and starting to think. Envelope and starting to think well gosh, maybe we can make sense of this and convince our legal team that we can push the very limits of those guidelines that have kept our mortgage business safe for the years. And that's where my fear lies is that in the desperation of our current economic situation in mortgage, let's face it we're still toiling to make a buck in this business. We have, certainly in the credit union industry, we've weathered the storm without laying a lot of people off like an independent mortgage bank has done, and I think that would have been even more prudent. But, given our culture on our side, think that would have been even more prudent, but given our culture on our side, we've kept a lot of the expense. I can speak for Michigan First there. So we're fighting every day just to continue to be profitable, and that tends to have you make different decisions than you've made in the past. Well, if you do that now without the threat of, or certainly the perception of a threat of well, nobody's kind of looking, you're willing to say, well, you know, maybe we can do that, maybe we can go just a little bit farther on that DTI or a little higher on that OTV, or maybe we can, maybe we can put that risk on our books, books. And if you think about some of the organizations that we have today that are, like I said, entrepreneurial in spirit, that can get away from you really fast. And I've seen, not a direct example of that, but I have certainly seen decisions start to be made out of frustration, out of necessity and, even worse, out of desperation. And those are the times that you start to really I get really concerned about, boy, as an industry, are we moving that pendulum way too far on the other side.
Speaker 3:You know, this for me is not a political conversation so much as it is an ethical conversation about how, you know, we say at Michigan First, I say at Michigan, first, that housing, home ownership is a privilege, not a right, and it doesn't mean that you can't earn the right, that you can't get there, and it's not just for the privileged, but it is something to behold because it is a 30-year commitment. Like I always say to our new heirs, it's a marriage. You are literally getting into a marriage and making promises that you have to keep and if you don't, bad things happen. And making that ultimately so easy that anybody can get into that commitment is not going to have good results. And if you think of all the risk factors that have raised, I mean, I know that I'm enjoying a much greater value in my home today than I did even just four or five years ago, and in some cases, you know I'll use my son as an example I have.
Speaker 3:My oldest son bought a home in 2017 and he thought he was in a bidding war then and he ended up paying $190,000 for this ranch and I thought, god, he paid a lot of money for that. That thing today zills for like 380. And he thinks he's won the lottery and I'm like, holy moly, it's literally seven years and it's doubled in value in little old Livonia, michigan. So if you think about that people getting in at $380,000 today and being max LTV, max DTI and getting $25,000 of free money and really pushing the envelope right to the edge, it spells disaster if we lose value again. And that's what keeps me up a lot at night, not so much for our organization, obviously, because we're a little bit more conservative, but for organizations that are hanging on trying to pay the light bill every day. It's not going to take much for a couple of those to just cash out a few of these organizations and there's a lot of that, I think, perceptually changing today.
Speaker 4:And there's a lot of that. I think perceptually changing today was that saying yes to a potentially risky borrower has the potential to jeopardize the entire credit union. And we have a fiduciary responsibility to protect the entire financial institution. And just because, yes, the loan officer is going to push for every single loan, they're the advocate for the member and every single loan. But they also have a fiduciary responsibility for the credit union.
Speaker 4:And I agree with you that there is a concern that, with all the changes that are happening, that you know, with all the changes that are happening, you know HUD, fhfa, you know the things that they're pushing down on the GSEs, the CFPB and CUA I mean, you name it, we can go down this list. You know, at some point in time we have to be concerned that we have to maintain that. We have to be concerned that the people who are regulating us are not going to be sufficiently staffed to monitor us and you're going to have some bad actors that are just going to take advantage of that and just do whatever they want. And I'm not saying credit unions, but if you look at the full spectrum of our industry banks, credit unions, imbs, brokers someone's going to take advantage of it hands down. It's just natural. Someone's going to find a of it hands down. It's just natural. Someone's going to find a loophole and exploit it. Just people are naturally going to try to find the shortest line to that finish line.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this commodity has been monetized, certainly, and there's certainly a free market, capital society, a balance, if you will, that I think this industry enjoys, and when that does get out of balance it is troublesome. You reminded me a little bit kind of, about the different analogies that we use in this business and if you think about what decision we're making when we put somebody in a home. We had a recent. Obviously in the last two weeks we've had very large swings both in the stock market and in the bond market and I happened to be at a conference I was actually at MBA attending a peer group review when we were having those huge swings in the stock market. The administration was announcing tariffs and then not tariffs and then back, and there was a lot going on and I think on that Friday we called it the 45-minute refi boom, where the bond market just dove, rates went down with it and then there was about a 325 basis point swing in the 30-year Fannie Mae coupon and we had members pre-approved in the morning that were denied in the afternoon based on their rate moving enough index and that tells me that we are primarily approving first-time homebuyers at the max DTI.
Speaker 3:And if you think about the commitment to homeownership and the idea that you know that people get into homes that they can afford and be successful homeowners, when it can be jeopardized inner day based on the dealings of our current administration or current Congress or, you know, insert any economic event that puts us at jeopardy as an industry.
Speaker 3:It puts our homeowners at jeopardy of being successful and ultimately we could go into the GSE reform but ultimately, without that federal commitment or that backstop on our industry, we wouldn't have a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. We would be dealing in arms and balloons today if it was all privatized. And I think that's important to remember that the Fed plays a pretty good role in our industry at giving the space for us to be entrepreneurial and advocate. But you can't have it both ways. You can't have a set of rules but nobody to enforce them. Have it both ways you can't have a set of rules but nobody to enforce them, because, left to our own device, we will, as an industry, we will push the envelope. That's how we're built and that is, you know, like I said, that is concerning for me and certainly, I think, for others in the industry.
Speaker 4:Right. I think we have to remind ourselves that we are fortunate to have that 30-year fix. Other countries do not. They do not. Yeah, and you know that is a privilege, that that we have and at any point in time I hate to say it could it could very well be taken, taken away from us yeah, and I you know, obviously being at nac peter, I think you were there and advocating on the Hill, and I know that Acuma does that work too.
Speaker 3:That was one of our talking points. We are the gold standard of home finance. We have the strongest, certainly, real estate finance community industry and system in the world and that would be in jeopardy if that changed. For sure and I think you know you touched on a little bit there are a lot of good things happening. Well, certainly economically good things happening. The federal government is not a revenue machine. It is a 100% expense and it's always good to review and make sure that there is no waste or fraud. I don't know that anybody would argue that point, but I get a little bit concerned that they're so fixated on cut the number to the bone that we'll go past some of the backstops and some of the support that we actually use in the industry. And I find it very ironic that I'm sitting here advocating for a CFPB that is adequately staffed when you know, 10 years ago we couldn't even say that name without changing the letter F to something else.
Speaker 3:I promise, I wouldn't say that. But, yeah, so it is ironic, but what we've learned is that, yeah, those guidelines can be useful when the balance is correct working with industry, working with organizations like Acuma, mba, to form the policy that works for everyone.
Speaker 4:Right, I mean. But here's the thing there has to be and you said it and you hinted at it there has to be that balance, right? You can't strip something down to bare bones, whether it's a GSE or another form of regulator. It can't be stripped down to bare bones. Because here's what's going to happen Politicians come and go, midterm elections come and go and the administration is going to change and it has a potential to change parties at any point in time. What happens when it goes from Republican to Democrat and the next administration is a Democrat and that Democrat administration wants to ramp back up? I'll use the CFPB as an example. They're gonna come back and force and anyone who did that backsliding and took advantage of these loopholes and the fact that the CFPB didn't have the resources to enforce every single regulation that was out there, you better believe they're going to start targeting you.
Speaker 3:You better believe it, you better believe they're going to start targeting you. You better believe it. We've already seen it. We've.
Speaker 3:You know, as much as we'd like to think, that the CFPB has not been politicized one way or the other, it certainly has. You know, I don't know that any common sense. You have to be careful here. Any person with using common sense would go in and thinking that the divisiveness of one way or the other is good for anyone. It's only good for a small percentage of people and ultimately there's a lot of good people that worked at CFPB. I mean, certainly did they have waste? I'm sure of it, every organization does. Did they have overreach? Of course, we've talked about that ad nauseum, but ultimately it is there to serve a purpose and certainly make us stronger and more compliant and certainly more based in sound decision as a group. Certainly and this is from an organization that I've been at for the last nine years that hasn't been in the direct purview of CFPB. But guess what? The NCUA takes their cues from CFPB. They take that guidance and certainly in our you know.
Speaker 3:Another risk, really, without you know the breadth at CFPB that we need is and we've talked about this in a couple different venues, venues is the states seeing certainly their responsibility to step up, get our industry in line and, if you have, if you think you don't like the CFPB, if you're an IMB or a credit union that operates in several states, have 30 or 40 different sets of rules and, before you know it, you can't even lend in certain states, like you're like all right, I'm going to pull out of all these states. I'm going to do this because I can't even I can't abide. It's too costly to abide by those rules. And that's really where, in some regards, the CFPB has made it a level playing field and given the states the ability to kind of pull back on their regulatory enforcement and point to the CFPB in some of those areas.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, trust me, I hate it. You know, working at IMB and then having almost like a revolving door of states coming in. It was just back-to-back weeks or when multiple states were in there at a time. That was the worst, the worst.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you had to set aside a conference room just for the auditors, like there was always somebody in there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, always 100%. It was just a revolving door and giving them a laptop just for them to use it was horrible.
Speaker 2:Anyways, I'm honestly amazed right now, because when you were just talking about a revolving door state, I was like man, that's a really weird way of referring to a state. I didn't realize you were referring to people. So a little moment for me. Yeah there you go, Justin.
Speaker 4:Talking about auditors, auditors from states. Yes, yes, there you go, justin. Welcome to the conversation.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, I've been here the whole time and I'm trying to follow along, but I didn't know we were talking about people in that moment.
Speaker 3:Can you not see my cue cards?
Speaker 4:No, I'm joking and just, we're talking about people, Thank you. But anyways, you know these are and I do want to go back to something you said and I do want to go back to something you said there were yes, there are and there were good people at the CVP and GSEs and throughout the entire government that were laid off, but there also were bad actors and there are bad actors in the mortgage business that remain. I mean, you can look at the recent fraud that happened at. Was it Fannie or Freddie? Fannie?
Speaker 3:F.
Speaker 4:Freddie, fannie, fannie, fannie. I mean that. I'm going to make this explicit. That was shitty.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean, that should never have happened. Yeah Right, but it is what it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, it's inherent, and I'm here this topic. I liken this very high altitude thought process to almost like idea making. Do I think the industry is headed on the wrong trajectory? No, I do not. I think that there are a majority of good, compliant companies that lead the knowledge here. But to your example at the start of the call around, where our industry went really fast is it became super monetized and it got easy and it was without really oversight. Because my first boss told me when I got in this business and he said to me he's like Dan, I'm going to tell you right now, as long as the number is big enough, nothing else matters.
Speaker 3:And ultimately, when those decisions start getting made and nobody's there to say, oh yeah, but wait, you need to check these boxes before you do that, it will not take long for our industry to get on the wrong side of that. So I think it's very relevant for us to talk about these things and I'm not here today to say the sky is falling. I'm here to say that, hey, we got to pay attention as an industry and we got to work with whatever regulators that are left and advocate for support and certainly our finance system in this industry and make sure that we're working together and fighting against that every single day, because it won't be long if we don't before somebody is knocking on my door saying, hey, you can sell us loans with these characteristics and I'm like you got to be kidding me. Yeah, you don't even need a pay stub, you don't need an appraisal, you just need to do this, and pretty soon we're all just doing these mods and we're putting people into things that we don't even realize is happening.
Speaker 4:I think that's well said, and I just want to add one point to that Keep doing the right thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean. For me it's involvement. I'm not Lewis. I've learned a long time ago that I am, and I've heard the other leaders say this.
Speaker 3:I'm not the smartest tool in the shed, but what I am is very well networked, like I said earlier on the call, and I try to build that synergy with people that are thought leaders and not always have the same thought as me, because that's when I really start to understand this business and it is when we do our visits to NAC, the National Advocacy Conference, or if you go with Acuma to do a Hill Day, or if you go to your local state and do those, you will understand very quickly that this business is complex and that nobody understands it. And the more you can be an advocate of that and understand that you're better, the better off we are. There are some very bright people that run companies today that are very much motivated on the financial piece of our business and, as I used to say about a boss of mine one time, you never let the facts get in the way of a good story. So you have to make sure that you stick to the facts and understand where our industry is today. Okay, perfect.
Speaker 4:Well, dan, we need to start transitioning, but before we do, like I said, I always start with the first question and always end first same question. And always start with the first question and always end first same question and always end with the same last question. What keeps you going? What motivates you? Like everyone else, one foot out of bed, and so, dan, what keeps you going?
Speaker 3:Well, it's probably a different answer, both personally and professionally. So I'll go professionally. For me, I feel like I've accomplished just about everything I set out to do in my professional career. So today, for me it's the give back piece, and I know that sounds really corny, but I spend a lot of time and energy mentoring, doing things for other people to continue to grow and lower the age in our industry. We've spent now two and a half years and somewhere around you know, in man hours or team member hours probably north of five or six hundred thousand dollars building our own university here at Michigan. First, and kudos to our team for all that work. But for me that's that's legacy, that's trying to train the next generation to do it a credit union way, and it is different.
Speaker 3:You know and I'm not saying that to be an elitist or say it's better I've worked in every area of this business big banks, small banks, independents and now the last nine years in the credit union space, and I will tell you that I think credit union mortgage really answers all the check marks for me and what home ownership means.
Speaker 3:We engage with our member, we educate our member, we make sure that we provide the best product the most affordable rate in our opinion, certainly on what we can execute on and give them the access to the tools they need to be successful homeowners.
Speaker 3:And I think that's what the credit union does every single day in every aspect of their business. And if you shoehorn mortgage into that, I believe it is for me, given that I've worked in every area, probably the best connection to what is best for our members. And I'm not like I said. I'm not saying that because I don't think there are good independent mortgage banks or banks out there. I'm just telling you that, lived in this and seen being part of Acuma, working with other credit unions, it is a real dovetail between what credit union culture is, what drives us, our mission, our statement every day and how mortgage can fit into that. And sometimes that means we don't grow as fast as independent mortgage banks, but we grow consistently every single year and that's what I'm proud to do today and that give back, really, for me, is what I'm after today.
Speaker 4:Love it, love it. Well, dan, it's time for us to transition to our second segment, and again, this is in our second segment. This is where we play Jeopardy. Sometimes we do fun facts, but today we're going to do the most requested segment of dad jokes, and so, prior to our recording, I asked that you come prepared with two to three dad jokes. Just looking at the time, let's go ahead and do two dad jokes each. So what we're going to do is I'm going to have you say two dad jokes each. So what we're going to do is I'm going to have you say two dad jokes. I'm going to have Justin do two dad jokes, and then I will wrap up with two dad jokes, and then we'll just end the podcast and call it a day. Sound good, perfect Sounds great All right After you, sir.
Speaker 3:All right. So I'm going to do one mortgage themed one, and then I'll do one maybe less mortgage themed. So the first one I'm going to get you with is who do you call, or what do you call someone who mails mortgage statements? What? Post Malone, you're welcome. Okay, that's a good one. You just want to stop now. Okay, all right, all right. And then, uh, let's see, let me pick another good one for you. Uh, okay, what did the lunchbox say to the refrigerator? What? Chill out. Yeah, don't hate me because I'm a little cooler, alright.
Speaker 2:Justin, how do flat earthers travel? How On a plane? That one's? Deep I enjoyed that one. Um, okay, and then? Why can't dinosaurs clap their hands? Why? Because they're extinct wait.
Speaker 4:First of all, I already did that one. I already did that one. I should have known that one. I should know that. I should know that one. Oh damn it. Alright, that was a good one. I love that one, thank you. A caveman and a bear walk into a bar. Bartender says okay, what's your story? Caveman replies bear with me. Okay, I meant to do a voice with that, but I didn't. Okay, what did Hulk Hogan ask in his art class?
Speaker 3:Rip my shirt. I don't know, art class Ripped my shirt. I don't know what I don't know.
Speaker 4:What are you going to glue brother?
Speaker 2:That's a pretty good impression, thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you All right. Well, that wraps up Good stuff. That wraps up this episode's version of Dad Jokes. Well, Dan, thank you very much for joining us on this episode of AcroZone Point Podcast. Really did enjoy the conversation and, of course, appreciate everything that you do for our industry and again hope to see you soon, my friend.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I get. Thank you for the opportunity, and anytime I get to hang out with another CMB it's great. So thanks, Peter.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. And Justin, thank you. Of course. It was my pleasure and to all of you, we knew your time is valuable. Thank you for tuning in to the latest episode of Acuma's On Point Podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. Until next time. Be well, my friends.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time at the Acuma On Point podcast. If not already, be sure to subscribe and give us a five-star rating For more great episodes and information. Be sure to visit us online at acumaorg and to get the latest updates. Head over to our LinkedIn page.
