The Workhorse ft. Penny Zenker

Can you go to sleep at night knowing that a project has been left undone? Or are you working at 2 in the morning trying to finish?

For some people they are fine going to sleep knowing they can finish tomorrow. For others with a compulsion to work, work, work, they are up late burning themselves out, just to finish that work.

That wasn’t even a question for Penny Zenker. She made sure she completed her work on time, no matter the stakes. Whether it was wanting to please others with her value, or being in control, or a fear of things being left undone, the results were the same.

When she sold her company to try out a 9-5, her tendencies followed her. She realized the grass wasn’t always greener whether you own your company or are working for someone else.

Listen in to hear how Penny accepted her compulsions to be in control, and developed a reset practice transformed her ability to see the forest through the trees. 

Key Takeaways

• Slow down and recognize the signals, then develop a reset practice by stepping back, getting perspective, and re-aligning
• Create focus by asking yourself what is one thing you can do to move yourself forward in the day, what are three things that are midterm milestones that I'm working towards, and what are five things that absolutely must be done by yourself today
• Be transparent about your tendencies and behaviors. People will appreciate your vulnerability, give you grace, and can help keep you accountable

Key Moments

{02:33} “I'd work into the wee hours in the morning because it wasn't done. Like, it was really hard to put an unfinished piece of code. And go to sleep.  I don't know, I just couldn't put it down.”

{03:53} “I wasn't the kind of leader I needed to be in order to motivate those people, in order to  bring out the best so that they wanted to own that work. I was a terrible micro manager.   And that was really what was burning me out, is I was trying to fix it and take it away from them and just added more and more onto my plate.”

{04:47} “Our dysfunctions just follow us and then they get bigger.”

{13:12} “Like I still get it, where, you know, in the beginning of the pandemic, for instance, when everything shut down, my workhorse  wanted to jump in and say, it's okay, I got this, I'm just gonna work through it. Right? I'm just gonna overwork especially when it could have been a time when I could have relaxed and I could have stepped back.”

More about Penny

Penny Zenker is The Focusologist, an international speaker, business strategy coach, and best-selling author.  Penny founded, developed, and sold her 1st multi-million dollar business while living in Zurich, Switzerland. Later at the world's 4th largest Market Research company, she managed business unit turnarounds and was a Tony Robbins business coach helping entrepreneurs around the world to double their businesses.

Penny’s book The Productivity Zone was an Amazon Best Seller and her TEDx, "The Energy of Thought" with over 1M views, has gained attention around the world. Penny has been featured on NBC News, Forbes, Inc, ESPN, and Wharton Business Radio among others.

Get in touch with Penny

penny@pennyskeynote.com

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Send it to us at podcast@jennylynnerickson.com

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Transcript

Jenny Lynne: [00:00:00] Welcome to Death of a Workaholic, where other people's stories are a piece of your map. I'm your host Jenny Lynn, and I'm ready to take you on an adventure. Penny Zenker I am so glad to have you here. 

Penny Zenker: Well, thanks for having me, Jenny. 

Jenny Lynne: It's gonna be a blast because I mean, you are the focusologist. So this is your, this is your expertise.  But I always like to start at the beginning of everybody's story with workaholism. And yours started with a nickname that I think a lot of us have had during our lives, which is workhorse.

So tell me about the birth of your workhorse. 

Penny Zenker: Yeah, you know, it was really funny. I think that even like when I was really young and I had like a paper route and all the different jobs that I've had, it was just, I was always just working harder than everyone else, right? I was always putting in more time.

I was always, looking for the next thing to do. Even if my role was finished, where can I help out and do more? And I guess that's the thing is do more. And I was [00:01:00] on a co-op, I went to Drexel, so we had a co-op program and I worked for Coopers and iBrand, which , used to be the big six.

 you know, we would work long, long hours and we work on tedious types of work , as the co-ops , and I. I was there and I was working and everybody else was taking all these breaks. And I'm like, dude, we've got work to do here. Let's go . And so some of the breaks I'd worked through or I'd go back early and just that, I think that was the beginning of me really recognizing it. And they're like, wow, you're such a workhorse. You know? If you needed to get something done, you gave it to the workhorse, right? . 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah, . And what drove that workhorse? Like what was your reason? for continuing to work when others stopped. 

Penny Zenker: You know, I don't know, like, you know, it's a little bit of a compulsion. Mm-hmm. . Um, I think one of the things that I have discovered is that like I'm a little obsessive about adding value and, and maybe that comes from a deep insecurity right.

Of,  feeling like I'm of value.  I don't know. Right? There's so many rich things that  it could be, I fall into traps of wanting to please other people, right? So it could be to be recognized  to please others. I think also, I don't like open loops. I don't like leaving things undone. And so me taking a break would mean that there'd be stuff that was undone.

Like the, you know, it was the death of me in my, technology business when I was doing, application development. And I'd work into the wee hours in the morning because it wasn't done. Like, it was really hard to put an unfinished piece of code. And go to sleep. I, I don't know, I just couldn't put it down.

So it was, I think it's a myriad of compulsions, uh, that add up together. 

Jenny Lynne: That word compulsion I've heard come up consistently, compulsion or anxiety either way. Mm-hmm. , it shows up the same as like a mm-hmm. , a pace or a need to [00:03:00] close some sort of gap or complete some sort of task. 

 You sold a m ultimillion dollar company, 

you built a fantastic business from it. You got stuff done. And how did that feel as you were kind of working your way through and having these great accomplishments?

Penny Zenker: Well, you know, they're hollow accomplishments sometimes because, , I sold my business for the wrong reasons. I started to not be able to handle the magnitude of work that was there, and I thought, well, it's because it's because it's my business. If I went to work for someone else, then maybe I wouldn't have this same obsessiveness.

Right? Maybe it's not a personality flaw, maybe it's a circumstance. And, at the time, it was also starting to blame other people. You know, you hear this from a lot of leaders today, and so I know it firsthand. They're not accountable. They're not showing up the way that they should be showing up.

And the truth is, is that I wasn't the kind of leader I needed to be in order to motivate those people in [00:04:00] order to, bring out the best so that they wanted to own that work. I was a terrible micro-manager. And that was really what was burning me out is I was trying to fix it and take it away from them and just added more and more onto my plate.

And so I sold the business to get away from the chaos and then took another job , and I thought, this is my nine to five, right? I'm in this place where I can just go in and do my hours and go home.

And they reorganized the company. I was in a task force and not a month later was I c e o now responsible for, five companies across four countries. Hmm. You know, we think that the grass is greener on the other side, but that is so not true. Right? Our dysfunctions just follow us and then they get bigger.

Jenny Lynne: And I wanna dig into that moment when you got that news. Hello Penny. You are now the c e o of a holding company. Like what was, what [00:05:00] was coming over you in that moment? 

Penny Zenker: Well, it was like, I don't want this. It was fear because I knew that, that this isn't what I signed up for. I wanted that nine to five.

I wanted to relax. I had worked, worked myself to death with like 36 hour work shifts a couple times a month , in my own business, right? I was young so I could still manage to work on a little bit of sleep, but I'm starting to get a little older and getting really tired. And, uh, so I was, I was not happy.

What I didn't mention is, is it was also in German, so the overwhelm was, I, I didn't know what people were saying to me. So it didn't take me long that, that I actually went into my boss's office to quit. 

Jenny Lynne: Did you quit? or did you go into it and something happened?

Penny Zenker: So I went into it and something happened that, something was Peter, my boss, who, was an amazing mentor he was just one of those guys that knew exactly how to phrase a question. Simple is better. [00:06:00] So he just, he just laid out to me. He just kind of said, penny, I hired you to make decisions, and what you do with the rest of your time is up to you.

And I was pissed.

because that seemed really oversimplified at the time. But the truth is, is that was really brilliant because it cut right through all that complexity and, and everything that I was feeling and, and it just made me realize he's right. Actually, I'm focused on all these things that really don't matter. And so that was my opportunity.

That was really my turning point to look at things differently and, and really not just know the 80 20 rule kind of thing, but really live by it. And, and that's something that I've been coming back to as a reset process my entire life. Um, actually I didn't even realize it, but maybe even before that. And that's why I interpreted it that way.

Mm-hmm. . But, uh, that, that was huge. That was a huge turning point for. [00:07:00] 

Jenny Lynne: And you talked about that knowing versus the living, and really it's getting it from into your head, into your body so that you can be in that moment and know exactly what you need to be doing and exactly how you need to show up.

How did you get there? Because it's great to think of the 80 20 rule on paper, but how do you actually suss out what things matter? 

Penny Zenker: Well, I, I think the first thing is for got there to be in that mindset was, you know, kind of to hit rock bottom type of thing. Right? And, and then I think whenever you have, and hopefully you don't have to, right?

You don't have to have that in order , to put together good practices. But it does make it land that much deeper, there's no doubt. Right? So it really, for me was just a constant practice of stepping back and I have this three step reset process that I've now been able to identify, but it's just stepping back and really getting perspective of what's going on and, and realigning.

So [00:08:00] anytime I feel stressed, I feel anxious, I feel overwhelmed, I feel over committed. Any of those things are trigger points for me to say. Hold on. You don't need to feel this way. It's time to step back and get perspective and decommit and take some things outta your calendar and tell some people you're sorry.

But you know, It helps me to make sure, am I focused on the things that are most important. 

Jenny Lynne: So sometimes when we're trying to get that perspective, we're trying to get a little bit out of. Our heads. And what I mean by that is that fast moving part of our brain that's over analyzing everything, slowing it down so we can see the big picture.

Do you have any, techniques that really help people get into that moment? 

Penny Zenker: Well, I do have a number of techniques to help you to find your 20%, but I, I think the, the simplest one is just a question. It's just to slow down, is to, to recognize the signals. we have these, what I call reset moments.

We have them all the time. we just are going too fast that we [00:09:00] miss them or we ignore them. You know, people have all sorts of warnings about their health before they find out that their health is, is really in very bad shape, . So we just need to pay attention to the signs.

Are you sleeping well? Are you feeling anxious? Are you. Like grumpy when you get up , you know, because , what are you thinking of? What are you focused on? And so I think that's the first thing is to recognize the signals, recognize those moments where you have a choice to say, how do I wanna show up here?

What do I wanna focus on? And I, I like to create like some morning rituals that help me to, instead of being reactive in those moments where those signals come up. I try to be more proactive and set up those reset moments and say, okay, plan the times to step back. , so I have a gratitude journal in the morning.

Uh, I like to set an intention for the day. I set a word for the year. Right. All of those things help to direct our focus. Maybe it's a word for the week or the quarter. Just helps you to [00:10:00] say, okay, this is what's important to me right now. 

So When you start your day, do you have an intention of how you wanna show up today and what you wanna accomplish? What are the top three things? I have a, a simple little process that I use. It's called the 1 35, planning Method. And I kind of use that every day just to review what's most strategic that I'm working towards.

That one thing that I could do to just, keep the ball pushing along three things that are kind of, midterm milestones that I'm working towards.. And then five things that absolutely must be done by me today. So that's kind of how I organize my stepping back and creating that focus before I start the day.

Jenny Lynne: What I love about everything that you described is it goes back to Peter's words. Simple. Like simple is better. It's about cutting through the noise and creating simplicity. A lot of times we over-engineer planning. . Um, instead of just allowing it to be something we, that is so simple, we can carry with us.

Cuz our brains can only handle so much stimulus at once, so 

Penny Zenker: [00:11:00] Totally. We can't afford to plan at that level of detail anymore anyway, because, things change so fast that it would be wasted time. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I agree. A great mentor of mine once said, love the planning, not the plan. So it's about setting , a repeatable, easy to do process where you're planning can constantly be reset around what's actually happening in the real world. Cuz it, it does, it changes constantly. And you can't be married to the plan that you had cuz it's probably wrong now. . 

Penny Zenker: Right. Well, actually interesting. One of the things that , I like to say is that, it's good to have a plan. It's even better to have a practice.

Jenny Lynne: Oh, I love that. 

Penny Zenker: And so that's where my reset practice comes in 

Jenny Lynne: yes, cuz, it's habitualized, then it becomes just a part of how you show up 

Penny Zenker: habitually, but conscious, right? A habit tends to be, unconscious. Like it mm-hmm. , it goes to a place where it's unconscious. And I think that What I like about a practice is that it's very conscious.

You're very purposeful about a practice 

Jenny Lynne: that's [00:12:00] a good delineation. So it's something you do consistently, but something you bring to the surface of your awareness. So, mm-hmm. , you are in fact integrating. Habits to reality and choices. 

Penny Zenker: That's right. So that would really align our actions and our intentionality.

Jenny Lynne: That's awesome. . So this was your turning point, but you said it, well earlier. Hopefully not everybody has to hit this, rock bottom. And, um, for better or worse, most of the people I interview, like myself hit some sort of rock bottom , right? 

Let's talk about some warning signs, yellow flags, red flags, things that cropped up before , that now in hindsight, you have the honor of seeing 2020. What would you say were signs that you missed along the journey that people could pull out to help them identify earlier? 

Penny Zenker: I think part of it is in listening to your own excuse. , you know, I, I don't have the time, or I must get this done . Because if we were listening to someone else say it, we'd see right through that bullshit, right? . [00:13:00] Mm-hmm. . I guess it would be that it was to have, maybe to pay attention a little bit more to some of the things that I was saying to others, but also to myself. it's just really also be aware of the anxiousness. Like I still get it, where. you know, in the beginning of the pandemic, for instance, when everything shut down, my workhorse wanted to jump in and say, it's okay, I got this, I'm just gonna work through it.

Right? I'm just gonna overwork e especially when it could have been a time when I could have relaxed and I could have stepped back. So , it's just recognizing what are my choices here? Let me step back and see what are my options?

 When we set deadlines and we get stressed because we have all these deadlines, are they false urgencies, challenge the deadlines , and the things that we set. I've come to practice instead of assuming that it's due as soon as possible, and that, that means tomorrow that I get to ask a question when I'm talking to someone and say, when do you need that by? Mm-hmm. . And then also , if my schedule's so tight. and [00:14:00] I wanna give that the, the best effort that it can. Would it be okay if I got it to you by this date? Mm-hmm. , right? And kind of guide that. So I've gotten much better in setting and in helping to set realistic deadlines. And I think that's something that people can take control over. 

Jenny Lynne: Yes. Yeah. Much of that, anxiety can be tamed by making the implicit explicit. Let's bring, things that we're assuming to be true. Out into the open and putting dates and times and expectations and communications around them, it can really relieve a lot of, , that stress and pressure.

And you mentioned something so powerful, you talked about anxiousness. So one of the things that, as I'm starting to dig into my research, my results aren't like finalized yet, but I'm finding that anxiety is at the root of a lot of this for people.

And so I've been researching what is anxiety really. So through that discovery, anxiety. Interestingly enough, one of the definitions on one of the, medical, things I was reading was restlessness. 

Penny Zenker: Oh, and I have [00:15:00] restless leg syndrome, , you know, like you really see me sitting here like, nah, I do.

Yeah, 

Jenny Lynne: me too. And so thinking about like about that energy and how do we take that energy and you talked about the things that we tell ourselves, and I told myself for so long that that was such a good thing to run that fast. And then I started to realize I can feel that anxiousness here, whether it's good or bad, excitement or whatever.

And it's becoming a practice of how do I bring that anxiousness deeper into my body so that I can be more intentional about how I'm channeling that energy for the day. How have you worked through some of this own, you know, this restlessness, shall we say, ? 

Penny Zenker: Well, I do think that when we get in our body, it helps us to get out of our head.

So, I used to be a, an avid mountain biker when I was living in Switzerland and doing this in German. That was, that was really what helped me to get through that time and to keep that balance and so I don't have as much of an outlet with that, at the [00:16:00] moment.

And so actually I just, started, uh, Shong. , which is a breathing, practice and an energy practice. So I'm, I'm really excited about it cuz I feel that anxiety rising again in me, . So I don't think it's something, if you've worked through it, it doesn't mean that it's gone.

Mm-hmm. , right? It means, cuz I feel like it's probably just a part of who I am. and there's parts of it that are good that, that mm-hmm. drive me to bring out some of my best. But there's part of it that goes over the top and, and there's that tipping point right, where it's good until it's not, and you need to know when it's no longer serving you and it's starting to create harm, or stress or more anxiety.

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. And yeah, I'm actually, someone just recommended a great book. I'm excited to read about breathing and ironically enough, I just started Q J a few months ago and love it. So I, I hope you much 

Penny Zenker: as I can.

We can exchange resources. Yeah, there you go. . 

 You know, we can also share with people, we can be vulnerable and let them know, Hey, this is an issue for me.

I want [00:17:00] you to know that I happen to have some tendencies to micromanage, and hey, please call me out on it because, I don't realize I'm doing it. And it doesn't mean it has nothing to do with you. It's about my need for control. And so if I'm just jumping in too much or whatever, just gimme the, heads up.

So I, I think we can also. Put it out there and have conversations about it with the people that we work with , so that they know where we stand as well. 

I love 

Jenny Lynne: that. It's another example of making me, implicit explicit and in my research as I'm talking, I find that there are two main things that drive workaholism.

One is, performance anxiety of some sort or per desire to perform of some sort, which, like you said, can be connected to more root. Things around being good enough, being loved, all kinds of being included. Sure. All those kinds of things. And then the other one is actually financial security. So a lot of people, their workaholism is born from a place of not having had a lot.

Right. And so they're concerned about more the physical and financial security component of it. So I have both. So oftentimes when I work with people, I let them know I [00:18:00] have money hangups. And so if I start like elevating a little bit over something that has to do with money, it's not you, it's me, , and here's my childhood.

Sorry. Let's go into my own childhood experiences. And they are really good then about calling you out on it and not taking quite so seriously. And I think that's awesome, penny to just embrace you know who we are and how our past informs how we show up. People are willing to give us a whole lot of grace if we are willing to take accountability for that.

Penny Zenker: Absolutely. And then we collaborate a whole lot better and we can lead a whole lot better because people understand our style. And we connect at a different level. So it's actually a, a win-win across the board. 

Jenny Lynne: I love this. Okay, so we had so many good takeaways here, but what I'm hearing is, , the biggest thing that you recommend everyone do is read the signs.

Just stop, pause and read the signs because. , the words you're saying, the actions you're taking, the reactions of others around you is telling you something. You're gonna feel it , [00:19:00] in your body, in your sleep, in your relationships. And so if we learn , to read the signs and stop and pause and reset mm-hmm.

 And let me see if I can remember your reset process. Step back, get perspective, and then make the change. Is that, uh, uh, realign? Yeah. 

Penny Zenker: Realign. Thank you. Realign with what's important. Yeah. . Oh, 

Jenny Lynne: that's awesome. So that is kind of what you recommend infusing throughout your entire way of being. 

Penny Zenker: Absolutely.

If we just had that practice that anytime a signal came up in any which way or form, we didn't get the result we wanted, we feel aggressive. Somebody's aggressive towards us. If we just triggered that reset practice and said reset in our head. It would be a game changer because we wouldn't get triggered by things.

We'd be able to make better decisions, more objective, you know, from a place of objectivity and clarity. It's huge. It's, it's helped me tremendously in my life. That is 

Jenny Lynne: amazing. Well, thank you so much Penny. Penny is a , focus. Ologist an international [00:20:00] speaker, business strategy coach and bestselling author.

She founded, developed and sold her first multimillion dollar business while living in Zurich, Switzerland. Her book The Productivity Zone was an Amazon bestseller and her TEDx the energy of thought has over 1 million views and has gained attention around the world. It was one of my first introductions to you actually, so I recommend people look at it.

Thank you. Any parting words of wisdom? Penny? 

Penny Zenker: I would just say it's good to have a plan and even better to have a practice. We love it. 

Thank you for joining us on Death of a Workaholic, where other people's stories are a piece of your map beyond workaholism. I'm your host, Jenny Lynn, and if this was a valuable addition to your map, then please like, subscribe or follow. Or sign up for my newsletter to get updates when new episodes are dropped.

You can reach out to me at podcast jenny lynn erickson.com, or you can go to my [00:21:00] website, death of a workaholic.com. If you have a map that you think would be valuable for other people, then please reach out and see if we can book you on the show. That is podcast@jennylynnerickson.com or death of a workaholic.com, and I can't wait to see you on an trip.