Know Your Worth ft. Jennifer Fondrevay

We all love a good horn toot, right?

Once you experience the feeling of being valued and being recognized, it’s so hard to let that feeling go.

In 7th grade, Jennifer Fondrevay recalled her first flirtation with workaholism, and since then it’s been a roller coaster of a relationship.

It is stressful when you are constantly trying to prove yourself to others, when they really don’t care.

But once she let go of proving her worth to everyone else, she found her own personal value. And that was serving and helping others.


Key Takeaways

• You do have to work hard to achieve success, but you also have to find a balance that works for you.
• Finding purpose and value in your own work requires a willingness to let go of distractions and noise.
• If you’re feeling unsure of how to make a change in your life, focus on the mark you want to leave behind. What is your purpose in your work?

Key Moments

{03:51} “I think I just got into my head at that point. You gotta always be working at this, like you can never let up.”

{05:53} “But it came from that really painful moment of realizing I was exhausting myself and no one was caring.”

{10:05} “You become less fixated on holding onto the past because you're okay with the future, you know your value. So anything that comes your way, you got it. You're good.”

{21:28} “I remember just saying to my husband,  I don't want my obituary to say, you know, ‘oh, she was a great chief marketing officer,’ right? I thought, man, if my legacy was about helping businesses do better by their people and to improve the success rate, that could be something I'd be proud of.”


More about Jennifer

CEOs call me the M&A Whisperer. Frontline leaders call me the Brene Brown of mergers and acquisitions. I help CEOs, leaders and teams understand what to expect during a merger or acquisition. I help people embrace uncertainty.


Get in touch with Jennifer

jennifer@jenniferjfondrevay.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-fondrevay/


Share your Story

Send it to us at podcast@jennylynnerickson.com


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Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Jenny Lynne: Jennifer Fondervay did I get that right? Cuz I forgot to look at the pronunciation before.

Jennifer Fondrevay: You did. By the way, it was really tricky to, how do I write my name phonetically? So I did spend time trying to figure that out. 

Jenny Lynne: You. That's why I have it there because I screw up names. It's kind one of my things.

I'm so excited to have you here because you've had. Just such an amazing life. And as I've talked to you, I've seen the depth of who you are as a person. And I'm really excited to explore that with you. 

Jennifer Fondrevay: you know, I'm excited to explore too. Who knows what'll come outta my mouth. . 

It's the best part, isn't it?

It's like an event. . 

Jenny Lynne: So we usually like to start with the question of when your workaholic first emerged. 

Jennifer Fondrevay: So here's what's  funny. Even right before we came on, when you said that was your first question, I was like, oh, [00:01:00] that didn't even start at work. It started in seventh grade because I was such a slacker

Prior , I had a teacher, a science teacher, Ms. Johnson, who she was handing out grades and I got a C on my science test and that was kind of a Typical grade for me at that time. And I remember her looking at me and quietly saying, you can do better than this. And I thought, holy cow. Like she paid attention. She actually cared.

And so I thought, oh, let's see if I could. And on the next test she waved around the class. Who do you think got the highest grade In the class and everyone thought it was Missy who actually happened to be a good friend of mine, , and no, she said Jennifer Fondervay. And I remember all the look of shock, including mine.

So I think it was at that point that I thought, oh, if I work harder, I can do better. And then I kind of took it to an extreme. 

Jenny Lynne: Isn't it amazing not everyone I talk to is [00:02:00] born this way. A lot of times , we're shaped this way. It was shaped over time through some sort of experience that either reinforced from a negative or a positive perspective that this works. So let's go do more of this. 

Jennifer Fondrevay: Yeah. I tell that story, not in a negative, right? She, oh, yeah. She motivated me and helped me tap into a side of me that, that, mm-hmm.

you know, I realized, I actually do have the brain power to do better if I just work with her. . I think it's when you don't set the boundaries that that can go against you. So I have no blame for Ms. Johnson. 

Oh no, that's awesome 

Jenny Lynne: that she does that. I love it. Those people that inspired us. It goes both ways depending , on who I'm talking to.

So that's amazing. And so you talked about that, like you just, it started and it grew and it grew, and eventually you crossed a boundary. What was that magical boundary line? You think you crossed. 

Jennifer Fondrevay: I can't really define it by some epiphany moment that I had.

 So I was out in, in the suburbs of Chicago and I moved downtown [00:03:00] for eighth grade. And there, you know, you kind of spend time trying to break in with the other kids. And it's funny because I was actually just sharing this story with my son.

 I. Got into the, critical thinking group. I think it was like the smarter kids went into, into one room and I got placed in that room, but then I did something, either something stupid, I missed a homework, or I wasn't contributing enough in class. So they moved me back down. But then that teacher said, no, no, no, no.

She should not be in this room. We gotta put her back in the other room. But I remember, I need to stay in this room . I don't wanna lose my place in this room. so then I started working hard again, you know, to make sure I stayed in there and thankfully, , they had no thoughts about moving me again.

But it was like a cue in my head that said, you can't coast, right. , you gotta work hard if you wanna, be acknowledged, if you wanna, if you wanna be in the room where it happens.

And so I, I think I just got into my head at that point. You gotta always be working at this, like you can never let up. And honestly, Jenny, if you hadn't asked me [00:04:00] these questions, I probably wouldn't have even thought back that far. You know, we tend to just think like where our career started and, but I realize that's some of the things because you asked me like, what's that journey?

I think it starts earlier than we ever realize. And you don't realize it until someone asks you questions and you start thinking about it. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. Yeah. I love what you said you needed to be in that room. I think those were the words like, I wanna be in this room. I need to be in this room, the room where it happens.

Yep. So at what point did that room, because that room gets bigger and bigger, right? , you were part of m and a, so you ran marketing teams, it got bigger and bigger and bigger. So at what point did that hard work stop serving you in that room? 

Jennifer Fondrevay: My first acquisition, , I mean, honestly, if I were to think about it, I recognized after that acquisition, so I, I was at that point the global head of B2B marketing for a company called Naft Tech, a company I adored.

I mean, it was my [00:05:00] dream job. I loved the people I worked with. I admired my boss and she was very good with me, and , my team was super not to say that there weren't challenges, but you know, it was really an amazing job after the acquisition. It just started to unravel and there were a lot of variables that contributed to it.

But I realized in that moment, cuz I kept working so hard to say, look, see we still have value. Look at what we've done. I would do PowerPoints. I would work up late into the night to create, this manifesto of how B2B marketing serves our customers. And they didn't care. They didn't wanna know what I'd done in the past, how my team had contributed to sales growth exponentially.

What they wanted to know was how we were gonna contribute to the future. And it's why a lot of my talk now is about letting go of the past to contribute to the future, right. To see those future opportunities. But it came from that really painful moment of realizing I was exhausting myself and no one was caring.[00:06:00] 

Jenny Lynne: When I moved into consulting years ago, I had a great mentor who once told me, when you're a consultant, it's about what did you do for me Lately? No one cares what you did for them a year ago, and you really did have to, you know, re-earn your stripes every day. And that can also lead to a sense of workaholism, because if you're trying to re-earn your stripes every day and it's never enough, did it do that for you?

Or did it do the opposite? 

Moving into consulting? 

No. When you went through this merger and acquisition process and you had this experience where you had to start focusing on what was ahead and what was in front of you right now and letting go,  did that help you release the pressure or did it build it because now you had to re-earn?

Jennifer Fondrevay: You know It was hard. It was my very first acquisition experience. Mm-hmm. . So I always wanna be very quick to say it was a multi-billion dollar \ and I have learned the bigger the billions, the bigger the bloodbath . So it was just, it was soul sucking is, I think, the best way I can describe it.

 I had so many epiphany moments, but the hard part for me was that recognition. It was that . journey through that first acquisition, because I had given up so much, , time with my children, [00:07:00] my husband would drive me to the airport and my children would clinging to my legs.

I mean, it was just awful. And I was thinking, I gave up that for literally my value to feel like it was dissolving in front of me and I thought I gave up so much and yet for what? Right. So I was definitely in the depression stage of grief for a while. I think now the joy that I have, after seeing that is I now decide where I'm gonna put my time, where I'm gonna put my energy and making clear that I determine my value.

 I think that Pivot in particular moving into consulting and, and owning my time was the big moment. , I would love to answer your question and say, yes. It all became clear during that initial journey, but it wasn't, it was murky.

Jenny Lynne: Oh, and ] . . Yeah. What clients you serve, what contracts you cut, what deals you close is 100% up to you. And you can look in the mirror.

One person looking 

Jennifer Fondrevay: back at you. 

Jenny Lynne: Right. 

Consulting can help, like running your own company really does put you in the driver's seat because there's truly only one person who decides, So that's amazing that you took that , as a way to kind of find [00:08:00] that power in that situation. Your own deeply rooted personal power it sounds like. 

Well, 

Jennifer Fondrevay: it was a journey. The first one was really rough. I went through two more acquisitions, so I don't wanna make it sound as though Oh yeah, I figured it out right away.

I mean, as you and I have both discussed, life's a journey. Where you're smart is picking up on those lessons along the way. Yeah. As much as you pick up on those along the way, just it helps in your education, your life, education. So I was just thankful by the third one. I thought this is not gonna get better.

And, and I mean that also for myself, I have a tendency to give 120%. To everything. I just, I can't, I'm, I'm bad at setting boundaries when it comes to really seeing opportunities and jumping in and making it happen. 

And I'm thinking, yeah, but look at, look at everything I did look at everything we did, our teams right. You can get so focused on that. And I thought I've just, I've got to figure out a way to, to do mergers and acquisitions better. So that the value that people bring is not lost, that it doesn't go up in smoke instantaneously, but it evolves and changes and the people can see how they can move forward.

So that really, for me, was the pivot. But [00:09:00] it's been through, you know, years of learning that lesson. 

Jenny Lynne: So , I'm hearing two things. One is learning to let go yourself, but the other is creating an ecosystem that does honor what people have brought so that they can let go and move on. 

So let's start with talking about how you let go, because letting go is the single hardest part. When I talk to workaholics, it's often quieting those voices because it does require we let go of a lot and we're not so great at humans at letting go. So what , what helped you release some of that? 

Jennifer Fondrevay: You're gonna laugh.

Last year I did a TEDx talk about embracing uncertainty, right? Creating opportunity in an uncertain world. And through the journey of writing that, so it wasn't even like, this is my talk and wow, I had the idea, but my journey in writing that.

And it had always been the underlying theme of my talk, right? When you know your value, that's when you can embrace uncertainty. The two go hand in hand. And for me it was that when you determine your value, when you are so crystal [00:10:00] clear on your value, you let go of outside forces determining whether you are valued or not.

You become less fixated on holding onto the past because. You're okay with the future, you know your value. So anything that comes your way, you got it. You're good. And I really think although I had been working on that talk for a while prior, it was really getting crystal clear, you know, for a TEDx talk you got 10 minutes to share it.

And I think in that editing, editing, editing down, I thought that's it. Right? It's really the act of embracing uncertainty and knowing your. Those two things together is what helped me realize I can let go. I'm not determined by my past. , I'm determined by my future, how I dictate my future, and that I think was a big wake up call for me.

Isn't it 

Jenny Lynne: amazing how creating our content helps us synthesize our thoughts down into something so simple that we can resonate with it and it ends up transforming us. And that's, that's how [00:11:00] we help people transform. It starts with us, right? If we can't do it for ourselves, we can't help anyone else do it.

So that's, yeah, absolutely. So I wanna get really real, because this is a very esoteric topic, so , what is an exact moment? Where there's a point of value. Like what is the talk track going through your head that you can stop and say, this is my value. Like, can you give us a real visceral example of what it feels like when you're in one of those moments where you're releasing pressures and embracing your own value?

Jennifer Fondrevay: Well, I think for me it's  two moments realizing, and it's when when I was writing my book, cause I talk about , the moment in my book, right? I, , I realized, I was doing all these PowerPoints and trying to convince the company that acquired us of here's why we are valued, here's why I am valued. And I remember, , this woman moved a meeting that I was supposed to have with her five times.

Hmm. And I was just like, okay, clearly she doesn't value me. And I remember how awful that felt. Like even when I was writing it , for my book, it was, you know, eight years later. And so now for me, the value is less tied to,[00:12:00] an experience like that and more tied to how I'm serving someone, how I'm helping, whether it's a leader or a company.

And, I remember in particular a presentation I gave recently for a company where , they've just gone through an acquisition of another company and I was presenting to this audience of people who had all had to re-interview for their job. And, you know, they're looking at me and I remember thinking at the end of that presentation, I'm so glad I chose this path because I was the right person for that.

In that moment. No one else understood exactly how they felt. I did. I knew exactly what it meant to be sitting in their seats. I'd been through it. And so when I talked to them, I could see in their eyes, you know, they were like, oh, this woman gets us. She knows what this feels like. These aren't emotions you talk about at work.

Mm-hmm. . And so I feel that it was in that moment that. I, I've let go of my workaholic tendencies completely because I spent [00:13:00] a lot of time preparing that talk. But it was in service to people who I thought, I'm gonna make a difference on their journey, a difference that I wish someone had done for me on my journey.

And I feel like that's as concrete as I can get to. It's like those moments of clarity that have you realize this work is worth it. And, the value that I brought, I, I know that few other people could have. 

Jenny Lynne: Taking your own personal experiences and using it to serve others.

And then it sounds like releasing the rest because that's part of moving beyond workaholism is, like you said, channeling that in the service of others, but also releasing all the noise and all of the other things on the task list that are sitting around that. So, Be crystal clear about what matters right now.

Jennifer Fondrevay: Yeah. And you know, Jenny, what was interesting is after that talk, I thought I was the perfect speaker for that audience. We tend to, particularly as speakers, you compare yourself to, oh, who else talks about change? Who else talks about corporate culture? Right? Oh gosh, maybe I should talk like them.

And, and I thought in that moment, no, the way I talk about. You know, the grief you can go through when your company is changing. You don't know what it's changing into. I get it. I knew it. I lived it, and,  I was so proud of myself in that moment because, I served them in a way no one [00:14:00] else could, and I knew it.

And I think we still rarely do that for ourselves, we still nitpick, ugh. You know, so-and-so would've done it better. He or she could have delivered a better keynote or whatever. And I was like, no, , I, I served them. And does help you let go. It helps you let go of the noise your past.

 It's making sure, I guess for me it's the clarity of understanding who you're serving and knowing you are the right person for them. 

Yes. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. Just like my message around, I, I'm starting to use the words inspiration versus perspiration. If I'm talking to someone, earlier in their career where perspiration is still, how they're building this broad set of experiences that they can bring to the table.

Like, yeah, there's a whole group of people out there who really, truly do want to and need to work a little bit more and apply themselves a little harder, but there's this whole group of people who work too much, and my message is uniquely suited for those people who work too much or can't shut it off.

Sounds like you have a similar experience [00:15:00] where your message is very specifically for people going through Acquisi. Who want to honor the human experiences that are created during that very complex transaction. Cuz it's, it's money, but it's also mostly 

Jennifer Fondrevay: people. 

Yeah.  It's interesting, I hadn't thought about it, but just as you were talking implicitly, I wouldn't even say consciously implicit, implicitly I'm trying to convey.

because during a merger and acquisition and, and we're talking about that, so some people, I don't want them to tune out and go, Ugh, I've never been through. I don't wanna. Any change in business, right? You a leadership change, change in strategy. You've got a new boss, they all have similar symptoms, right?

You start to wonder what your value is. You start to think, oh, will my new boss like me? Will my new team? Will I gel well with them? Is this new leadership gonna take the company in a direction where they don't value me? All of those have the same effect, right? You wonder where you sit in the organization.

And so for me though, what I was implicitly conveying is don't work like crazy to try and remind people of what you did in the past, look to see where you can contribute in the future, because we can drive ourselves crazy. , it would be like, you know, coming all your softball trophy awards, right?

Constantly bringing those into the office. So I look at what I did. That's great. You were super at that, but now you, now you [00:16:00] gotta move forward and look to see how you can contribute in the future, 

 I guess I didn't even realize how much of my talk is about, don't end your workaholic days. Make sure you're putting your energy and effort into the things that count, into the things that matter and get clear on your value that you determine.

Jenny Lynne: Mm-hmm. . And you're absolutely right. Of the interviews I've done so far, the majority of workaholism is en rooted in two fears. The first is some sort of performance anxiety, and that's either a desire to perform, like it could be a positive thing, I feel good when I perform.

But underneath that all, it's just a desire to be loved, accepted, and good enough. I mean, that's really one kind of pillar. And then the other pillar or the other human need. Is financial security people that grew up with less often feel the need to kind of, , collect and, and stash away to make sure that we're comfortable from a financial basis and we associate hard work with making more money.

Because early in our career, that's what it is, you show up. Guess what, you're getting [00:17:00] that raise, you're getting that bonus, you're getting that for a certain period of time. There's a direct financial connection to the amount of work you put in, and then it stops, you've kind of hit a ceiling where more work doesn't actually help you get further.

Right. So , you're in good company, Jennifer

Ah. , so one of the things I wanted to ask is, you talked about how your journey is really long, and I want to share this with people because, so my journey through workaholism was 18 months but I was forced, like I had a wall and had to figure it out, and so that's how long it was. However, I'm going through a new journey, so like this year is all about changing my relationship with money.

So last year was all about the performance, you know, anxiety piece. Right, what my worth is and kind of releasing some of that and stopping those voices. This year, it's all about my relationship with money and motherhood, my definition of what success looks like as a mother, and redefining that. we're constantly tackling new identities that have to be reshaped.

But mine was a little bit more of a condensed journey with workaholism because it had to be. How [00:18:00] long was it from that first point? Of, you know, realizing that something had to change to the point where you're like, oh, you know, those aha moments where you really, truly did embrace uncertainty and own your own value.

Jennifer Fondrevay: I feel like I've danced back and forth with workaholism good and bad and bad ways. You know, I even joked about my. Move from eighth grade , you know, all of that . And , what's interesting is even in high school, by the time I ended high school, , I'd been student council president, head of the Glee Club, national Honor Society, salutatorian, like, you know, and it gets intoxicating, ?

 You almost get into a rhythm and , you get awards because you're the person that they look to, ? right? And . . And then in college, freshman, sophomore year, kind of laid low, didn't do much, but then started to get more active, you know, top 100 seniors, alumni, union board, like all these things.

So I think the, the tricky part with it is, , you can go back and forth, but it has its intoxicating moment. Right. And I think you've been very good to define that workaholism it's a [00:19:00] seductive thing, mm-hmm. has what comes with it. 

 And I think it's been a journey because I've looked back and gone, oh, okay. I can see this tendency that I have. Mm-hmm. , you know, to wanna be. In the room where it happens to be , part of the mix. And I don't know if it ever stops. Yeah, I, I would say I still work super hard , on my stuff, but now it brings me more joy because I'm determining where I put my energy and where I put my effort.

Even though I'm consulting in mergers and acquisitions and my success. Is contingent on, people wanting my services and paying for them.  I've redefined what success means for me, and that I, I think, has helped me reframe how I see my tendency to, , dive into a project and go , a little crazy on it.

You know, so it's, for me, it's been a journey. It's always an ongoing journey. I think I, I could be the exception. I think it's just my relationship with work has, has shifted in terms of how I see it and where I wanna put my effort for that work, if that 

Jenny Lynne: makes sense. 

It makes complete [00:20:00] sense. 

I've interviewed a lot of people who said it's not linear. It's kind of like an ebb and a flow and about recognizing when you need to be on an ebb and in a flow, and having the power within you. To embrace that and quiet all of those voices in your mind that are telling you it's not enough and you need to keep working so you can truly enjoy whatever cycle you're in.

Jennifer Fondrevay: , I'm really glad you, you highlighted the financial security piece of it because I don't want to diminish that. There are significant percentage of people who are working really hard cuz they have to, I. Have had that experience as well.

I'm, I'm like you though, you know, work really hard, stash away, , tighten the belt, get smart. So you can have that time where you don't have to work like crazy to just figure out, okay, what do I do next? Mm-hmm. . But I don't wanna diminish that. For some people it's not workaholism, it's just needing to make sure that they're financially secure.

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't have that until, you know, I was in my thirties. It took a long time to build up that kind. The kind of space that allows us to stop making decisions, financially motivated decisions, and start to make decisions that serve the world in ourselves. So I'm Thank you for honoring that experience.

It is, it's a very real thing. And so, like you said, there's a time to pivot and it sounds like you found it. And, and if you were to summarize, what is that time that you would tell people it's time to pivot and to make 

Jennifer Fondrevay: this change?

For me, I, I, what I don't wanna say is it, you know, Hey, here's how I did it and how's, here's how you should too. Cause I'm always annoyed when people say, you know, here's the template. Find my book and, you know, you too can do this. So I can only describe the. The moment for me, a couple of things happened.

I was still interviewing to be a chief marketing officer. That had been my role. I'd gone through three acquisitions and I was using the time while doing a job search to write my book, 

while I was doing the research, I thought I had breast cancer, and thankfully I did not. But at the time, I didn't know that. At the same time when I was interviewing CEOs for my book, they kept asking me, well, what are you doing besides the book? And I would always say, [00:21:00] well, do you know how hard it is to write a book?

I was just proud. I was writing a book. , they, they continually, This is really important information. People need to understand what it's like to go through this and how to lead better. And then also as an individual, how to make the most of the situation. They aren't gonna get it just from a book, right?

You need to be out there with this message helping leaders be better. And so they planted that seed. At the same time I was having a health crisis, and I remember just saying to my husband, I don't want my obituary to say, you know, oh, she was a great chief marketing officer, right? I thought, man, if if my legacy was about helping businesses do better by their people and, to improve the success rate, that could be something I'd be proud of.

So I really would say, the pivot for me came from, it was more the mark I wanted to leave on this planet changed in my head.

 And that for me was I. Critically important. So I, I, I think I can't pass on to [00:22:00] anyone, here's the playbook, but for me it's getting crystal clear, what's your purpose in life? , what is the mark you wanna leave on this planet? I'd like to think everyone has a mark they wanna leave. Everyone has the potential to leave a worthwhile mark.

And for me, that was the clarity that I needed. 

Jenny Lynne: . So it sounds like the first thing that you did was when people pushed and challenged you, you used it as a reason to show up. Yes. And you figured out how to be in the room

and Then it sounds like really recognizing that you needed to embrace your value and, and stop looking to the past and how other people defined your value, but embrace that change is happening and how do you own the value that you can contribute right now and release the past.

That was the next kind of big, big marker I heard. And then your final advice that I thought was absolutely amazing is, you tell me what you just said, cuz it fluttered away from me, Jennifer . 

Jennifer Fondrevay: Well, to me it was the clarity , of the mark that I wanted to leave. Very clear on my purpose. I want to be someone who makes other people's lives better because I helped them figure out how to navigate a period in their career that can be very traumatic. You know, a merger and acquisition. There's a lot of change, and I wanted to give them purpose and meaning for themselves. And so for me, just getting that clarity of purpose, , and embracing that. I guess, has informed this next part of my journey. I'm still on it. Mm-hmm. , so who knows?

It may change again. 

That's 

Jenny Lynne: the best part. . So, Jennifer, thank you so much. CEOs call her the m and a whisperer and frontline leaders call her the Brene Brown of mergers and acquisitions. She helps CEOs, leaders and teams [00:23:00] understand what to expect during a merger or acquisition. and helps people embrace uncertainty.

I would highly recommend reading her book now. What? It's just a fascinating, fascinating book about all the different characters that you'll encounter, during the process and how to make the most of it and also her TED talk. And what is the name of your Ted talk, Jennifer, because I'm gonna get it wrong.

Jennifer Fondrevay: Well Ted X redefine it as create opportunity in an uncertain world. 

Jenny Lynne: Thank you so much, Jennifer. I am so honored to have you here. 

Jennifer Fondrevay: Thanks for having me.