Stay Ahead of the Bear ft. John Arms

How do you get ahead of the bear?

Is it completing a to-do list of 9 different things, to say “yes, I did it!”

Or is it sitting outside with a book (or even without a book), and just doing anything that brings you joy?

Either one can be the right answer!

Having white space, or downtime can really create something beautiful so that you are able to 1) relax, and 2) narrow down your unnecessarily long to-do list.

John Arms is on a mission to help people find their dream work and life by breaking down a normal idea of 9-5 working for one company and helping people go fractional in their work.

But his journey started with his own adventures.


Key Takeaways

• We are set up to be connected to nature. When you take time to be outdoors as a therapeutic outlet, you can stay level headed and not let anxiety take over.
• Plan your day like an ecosystem. Not a list, and not even in chronological order. Plan to do more thoughtful, whitespace activities.
• Let it soak. There is no rush to make a decision now on something important. Let it marinate and see how it turns out to make the best decision.

Key Moments

{9:41} “There's some wonderful research that's been done on Native American cultures and even ancient cultures , yes, they were running from the bear. But they weren't grinding through days like we do now in modern society. Very much time for spirituality. A ton of time for communities very connected to nature. Those were beautiful societies and I think they had it right. And I think we can learn a lot  from those societies.”

{13:44} “I think there's a difference between working a lot and working hard and workaholism.”

{19:55} “You're seeking approval. Look at me. Look how hard I work. I stay. I mean, just think about the, what you know: ‘Are you gonna stay till midnight?’ The judgment that happens in the workforce is terrible. Shame. I wrote about shame this week. Like, you know, it's just the shame if you didn't work, if you didn't sacrifice your health and your family, there's some shame associated with it.”

More about John

I am a former CEO and workaholic. Now I spend my time inspiring others to find balance, joy, health and prosperity in a decidedly un-workaholic manner, Fractional.

Get in touch with John

https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnarms

Share your Story

Send it to us at podcast@jennylynnerickson.com

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If you’re wondering what you need right now and how to manage your time, take the space test and see for yourself.

Chapters

• 7:04 Staying Ahead of the Bear

Transcript

Jenny Lynne: John Arms, welcome to the show. Death of a Workaholic. How are you doing today? 

John Arms: I am lovely. Thank you for having me. I'm grateful to be here. I'm so glad, Jenny, you asked me to be on this cuz it's important subject matter for the planet, for the whole world. So I. , I'm loving this. I can't wait to, to get into this conversation.

Jenny Lynne: That's awesome cuz you have been a champion for the post workaholic life for so very long, and I can't wait to talk about that as we get later into your journey. But let's start with where it all began in 1991. 

John Arms: 1991. That's probably, what would we call that as probably the height of grunge in America.

That's when I started my career and as I often say, , I refer to my, you know, the people like to hide their age. I like to bring it out into the light. I think age equals wisdom, [00:01:00] and that's extremely valuable. We have this bad habit in our status quo work culture to go, oh, , age equals bad, which is wrong.

And so I, I love going back to my beginning, . I started in a tough space when I started. I graduated from the University of Minnesota. I'm a golfer and with a degree in journalism and marketing. And at that time it was just cutthroat.

Like it was the height of advertising, arrogance and award shows and judging and criticism, and it was hard to feel good about yourself. So much pressure. And on top of that, there were hardly any jobs. So when I entered the workforce and my beginnings, it was hard. It was hard. And I think that probably caused me to learn some things and adopt some habits that later on turned into workaholism.

Jenny Lynne: Okay. And what were some of those habits? 

John Arms: Well, [00:02:00] so when you're in a high pressure environment, when there's a lot of judging, which is advertising, when there's a lot of criticism, when there's a lot of , just intense personalities, and I'm not saying they're not in advertising, but very much collected and aggregated in that market.

You tended to go. The expectation is to work all night. We got a presentation tomorrow. You're not sleeping until the presentation. We're gonna travel. So say goodbye to your family because it is all in, on this client, on this pitch, on this moment. That could be a big win for us for recognition, and you sacrifice everything for that.

Not a good thing. And it's not just me, right? The nineties were in late eighties, were full of that. Like all in on the company's goals. No prisoners and those are bad habits. Those are not good habits. Mm-hmm. I later found out, 

Jenny Lynne: now I wanna know when you found out John. 

John Arms: So sort of along the way, right?

This, you go, you bump [00:03:00] around in life and go, maybe that wasn't so great. I mean, I will tell you I was I was 33 years old when I had my first panic attack. Wow. And that was not good. And anxiety is, is still a, is. It's the demonn on the shoulder that a lot of us have. I have it and I'm super open about it cuz there's stigmas about it.

But I think I developed it from work. I really do and, how much pressure can you take? So I went through life and I have the benefit of having a lovely support system. Hmm. And I'm a very much into the outdoors, and so I like to go hiking and canoeing and paddling and fishing and hunting. Well, when you're in the outdoors, you're very, very balanced.

And you have time .When you're living that, you know, just, I need to get, I need to be on water. I need to be in the sun. I need my vitamin D. Well, that's observation time. So you sort of look back and go, what am I doing? What am I doing? Why am I, why am I doing that? 

So along the way [00:04:00] of living that intense advertising culture and then building it myself, I started a company in 2004. But by that time I decided I'm not gonna run that company the way the industry had run things for decades before. So along the way I learned it. And then when I went independent and started this fractional thing, well, That's a whole different thing, but that is part of how I learned it too, so, yeah.

Jenny Lynne: That's amazing. So , you said like, Four amazing things in the last few minutes. Number one, I wanna pause and talk about the beauty of age because we just don't talk about it enough. I am halfway in the middle. I'm turning 40 this year, so this is the year.

Okay. That we get to reflect on being the halfway point. 

John Arms: Yeah. 

Jenny Lynne: And it is one thing I've noticed is that, Like the first half of life , we're assimilating all this information and knowledge, but we don't really get to step back and see how all the puzzle pieces fit until after we've got a few gray hairs.

John Arms: Yeah. 

Jenny Lynne: Proverbially. 

John Arms: Yeah. Didn't, didn't you recommend a book from Strength to Strength? [00:05:00] To me, wasn't it? I did, yeah. And so what is it? It's fluid learning and then crystallized What, what, what are those two? Yeah. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. Fluid intelligence and Crystallized Intelligence. So this is one of my favorite books on this topic, is Strength to Strength by Arthur Brooks 

and he talks about the transition between in your early career, how it's all about fluid intelligence, where you're gaining knowledge, you're creating breakthroughs. It's, it's all like assimilating and amassing these new ideas and insights. And then , there's a point where our brains hit this peak performance stage and , in that particular regards, they move into a different, Type of performance, which is crystallized intelligence.

And we start to be able to connect the things that are meaningful and transpose and share them in a more valid, meaningful way for others. And so we become better teachers, we become better mentors, we become better advisors, we become better coaches. Mm-hmm. And so really rolling with it as you move through your career is the, is the single best way to find success and meaning your whole life.

John Arms: It's a great read and it's a great concept and it's something that was very [00:06:00] cathartic for me. Mm-hmm. 

 I mean, age is a, is it is high time. We recognize age is a beautiful thing. Mm-hmm. It is glorious. It is bloated with gifts. And prosperity and opportunity, and all we gotta do is pull it back out into the light. That's all. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. And it's also why sometimes workaholism is okay when you're younger and it becomes not okay when you're older because right, you're amassing this number of experiences and then at some point that desire to work gets in your way.

And so it's figuring out how to make the switch and when to make the switch so it doesn't become your second great point, which is a panic attack. I have talked to so many people who have had that I was just researching the other day. 33%. I think roughly, I'd have to double check my numbers.

Mm-hmm. Of workaholics have anxiety versus 12% roughly of the general population like it is. Yeah, it is. Definitely. There is a link there, it is tied and I wanna just blow the top off and say, yeah, you know, that anxiety can be really good for us cuz it gets us rolling and moving and doing these amazing things, but it also at some point [00:07:00] becomes a thing that can take us down.

John Arms: So it is very clinical in, in a lot of ways. I call it, I call it the bear. Is the way I look at anxiety is And it goes back to, you know, anxiety as a result of too much adrenaline mm-hmm. And releasing at times that are middle of the night. Why do you need your adrenaline, you know, at, at mock 10, right?

Yeah. Why is that? You know, and then what does it have you do? What it is going at, at mock 10? Right. Well, you don't need it, but the clinicians will say is well, for 300,000 years that mankind has been on this planet we've needed to run away from bears. And sabertooth tigers, we needed that adrenaline to survive.

Well, we're not running away from bears anymore. Mm-hmm. So that adrenaline's building up. It's got no place to go, and it comes out as anxiety. That's part of it. That's not all of it, but that's part of it. So in my own little mind, when I go work out, when I, when I'm reflecting, when I'm journaling, when I'm writing, I'm like, I'm staying in front of the bear.

 So the bear and I are friends. He's all eventually gonna get me, but it's always behind me, run away from bear. 

Jenny Lynne: I love [00:08:00] it. I love it. I love it. A whole different way of looking at out, running the bear, because that That's right. That's a great way of looking at anxiety.

It's like it's like you're running after something, you're chasing something. So why not channel it differently in a more therapeutic calm capacity? Totally, totally. Love that. Yep. And outdoors, I mean, The ability to helicopter back and see things clearly. That sounds like , a great solution for you.

So did you find the outdoors before your panic attack or was it after and did it help you work through the other side? 

John Arms: You know, it's, it's in my d n a, so my family we're water people. We love fishing and boating and that sort of stuff. So from a young child, I was fishing off the end of a dock.

Probably shortly after I could walk. I was just wired that way. Which isn't so much about the fishing, right? It's just like you're there over water. One of the most, I mean, a, a primary earth element that we cannot survive without. And you're immersed in it. You're un, you're, you're in the sun. So, so this connection to nature is, is it's in all of us.

I had an early awareness of it, and I [00:09:00] always pursued it. And and I still do, I have to be in nature for a half hour each day if I'm going to have a good day. 

 So then I lean into it, right? Like, yep, well, half hour's not enough. , it's a balancing thing and, and as it relates to workaholism and it relates to career and all that, it gives us perspective, you know, it's that, that bit of beautiful moment when.

When I was workaholic ing is, well, I'm gonna grind through this thing and then I'm gonna get to the next thing. And because I'm grinding, I'm not going to do a really good quality job, but I'm gonna check it off the list. Mm-hmm. And then I'm gonna do that throughout the day and my moments to observe and pause and reflect, which allow me to bring value into my work are not there.

 There's some wonderful research that's been done on Native American cultures and and even ancient cultures , yes, they were running from the bear. But they weren't grinding through days like we do now in modern society. Mm-hmm. Very much time for spirituality. A ton of time for communities very connected to nature. Those were beautiful societies and I [00:10:00] think they had it right. And I think we can learn a lot from those societies. 

Jenny Lynne: So what are the phases that you went through then? You, you know, you went through this, I'm gonna do the grind in the advertising world.

Mm-hmm. Something clicked and you kind of moved into, I'm gonna start my own agency and do this differently. Mm-hmm. And then something clicked and you moved fractional and, and said, okay, now I'm really gonna do this differently. So what were the phases that kept you ahead of the bear? 

John Arms: Ahead of the bears?

So, , in my family, there's an entrepreneurial thing. Well, most of my family are independent business people, so, you know, I think it's partly in our d n a, but you know, when I was working in that hard, advertising agency industry in 2004, I'm like, I, I think I have an idea for this that is really nice. It was a more digital centric, Company. So I think in many ways I was still workaholic, right? I'm like, oh, I can build a new thing and I can take what advertising is and make it better. I mean, that's big, high reaching stuff. And and I reached for it and found myself in the grind, just building that up.

[00:11:00] So it the, the thing that. Led me to where I am now is listen, you have to really find joy in what you do. And I don't know if I find joy in empire building, either building somebody else's empire or building my own empire. I find joy in impact. I find joy in this is what I think I got right about my company , we just really took care of our people.

Yep. It's the empire will come. But the the people, right? Pay 'em fantastic. Give them all the space they need. Don't put your thumb on top. You know, all those bad lessons I learned, I was able to deploy and our company wasn't a big giant empire, but to this day, people talk about that was a very wonderful place to work.

That's impact, right? We made people's lives positive. 

But that wasn't enough for me, right? It was still kind of an empire in a lot of ways. So finally in 2018, I'm like, I'm done. And I wanna go back to my entrepreneurial [00:12:00] roots. I believe in, I sort of advanced or evolved my thinking on what work is and what it should be for society.

. As my, as my high school guidance teacher said you have a strong vein for justice and social justice. And so I thought, well, you know, what about a life built on self-determination and freedom and choice?

What can that look like in growing up in the seventies, eighties, nineties, and two thousands of the corporate world? Freedom, choice, self-determination, not really in the mix. Mm-hmm. You know, for the most part, like people were working for somebody else on their vision to advance their cause, but what about ourself?

So I thought, well, we can do that, we can do that. We can be independent, we can be free, we can have more choice. Fast forward now it's called fractional. 

Jenny Lynne: Mm-hmm. So there was there a period. When you went into fractional that you went back to kind of some of those workaholic tendencies before you found your way out?

Or was it a really clean break for you? 

John Arms: It was a pretty [00:13:00] clean break. Yep. When I once, once I decided that, you know, quality of life and balance is the answer to happiness. Mm-hmm. And freedom and choice and self-determination were in the mix. I, I really avoided workaholism and I think it changed, right?

Like , say you're an artist, right? And you find immense passion in drawing or painting, well, 10 hours might go by or you don't even know you're doing anything, but you're so in love with the process. I don't really think that's workaholism. Mm-hmm. You know, that's actually healthy expression.

I write a ton, right? And I, I get in the writing groove and I'm like, Out it flows. That's healthy. It feeds the soul. Yeah. And there's impact on the other side of it. So I think there's a difference between working a lot and working hard and workaholism

Jenny Lynne: I agree. Working with your natural energy flow is incredibly important. And one of the things I have learned in the last, I would say year or two actually, is how to combine being focused [00:14:00] and having priorities that keep you from, you know, stretching yourself all over the place.

Creating that frantic adrenaline rush that, causes you to need run from the bear. Exactly. Yeah. But to avoid some of that by creating these really strong priorities, but also having some flex in them. To go with where your brain wants to go on a day by day basis and really being aware of what are truly hard deadlines.

Mm-hmm. Versus, you know, if I'm feeling more in a drawing mood that day, I'm gonna be drawing cuz I draw. It's part of my role and my work. Right? Yeah. But not every day do I feel like writing. Sometimes I feel like drawing so I can work with that like, Sometimes you go to your number two or three priority and do it because it's, it's there.

It's fueling your soul. It's present. Just go with it, jump on that. Train and drive. 

John Arms: Isn't it something? Like what you say no to is as important or if not more than what you say yes to. So if you have the choice to check nine more things off your list or paint in a three hour window, right?

I think the world's better if you paint. I think your family's better. I think your community's better when we lean into those places that [00:15:00] give us joy and are natural energies.

Jenny Lynne: I love that. So you talked a little bit about how you found joy and impact. Mm-hmm. How did you evolve that definition of impact so that it suited you in this life that also reflect and honored your own needs? 

John Arms: Good question. So it came down to, like early on, the impact was pretty clear.

And, and it was more around, I think there's a different business structure and career structure that can work for more people than what we currently have. Mm-hmm. And that felt good, right? A lot of people like, I am really good at what I do. It doesn't fit in a corporate bucket anymore. Where does it need to go?

Like, just providing relief to people who were stuck with Voyager and fractional was great first impact. Mm-hmm. But it evolved. It evolved to, as we, as we thought about that and, and what that meant in terms of training people to do that and providing services to help [00:16:00] them. And even what the things we do today.

There's far greater impact than just the relief from maybe an old pressure-filled life into a more fulfilling self-determined life. It is direction for people and that it is forward motion for our society. 

Jenny Lynne: And you talk about white space and the importance of having that in your life and in your work.

Yeah. What role did that play in this evolution process? Like where did your biggest ideas come from? 

John Arms: Oh, they always come from the white space. Okay. You know, they really do. The biggest ideas are not the result of a whiteboard and too much coffee and sweat. And grind. That is not where great ideas come from. At least for me and Jason, my partner at Voyager, it every Friday we have a meeting and we'll talk about things, right? And then we go, now we're gonna soak just, it needs to soak. Don't push it, don't shove it, don't try to force it, let it soak. And then we don't come back for another week. 

Jenny Lynne: So how did you make the leap.[00:17:00] And for people out there thinking about making the leap themselves, what would you recommend? 

John Arms: Well, learning, you know, you have to learn, you know, the world is changing. You have to look at the cues you have to learn as the world changes around us. I mean, I can't imagine a time since maybe the Great Depression that we've had so much change and.

Everything all in one short period of time. So you have to go with that and you have to learn, right and sort of get out of those comfortable spots that you thought were nice, safe places.

Mm-hmm. For the people we help a lot of people were pretty comfortable. They had a great job at a big Fortune 500 company. Everything was great until it wasn't. And when it wasn't, it was bad. Like you lost all your money, you got no, you know, everything stops. Right. The whole thing stops.

But it's not just the money. Right. Like the reason you get, you know, the impact you can make and the, you know, yes. Supporting your family and, and, and all of that. But the, I think the absence a lot of people felt is [00:18:00] like, I'm no longer really wanted. Mm-hmm. I don't have a sense of belonging anymore when you're laid off.

Right. So where does that, where does that go? Because you're no less awesome. Is awesome the day after you laid off as the day before, probably even more so because you've been released from a lot of things, but you don't feel that way. So anyway, you have to learn, you have to understand, you know, what your options are.

You can go get a new job. . People are sort of having an awakening right now.

Jenny Lynne: . And you you made a really good comment in there about you talked about how there's this need for belonging. And I wanna pause there, because what I've noticed is that a lot of times this, this anxiety that's created through this, like go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Adrenaline pumping stuff. Mm-hmm. From a lot of people I talk to, there's usually two underlying components.

Either some form of financial security they're pursuing, and the other is performance, a desire to perform at a certain level. Mm-hmm. Now, if we unpack that desire, there's usually some [00:19:00] root causes, right?

Why do we feel the need to perform? There's gonna be some reason why we feel the need to perform. Yeah. So what were some of those things in your journey? What were some of those underlying desires mm-hmm. That drove or informed your early workaholism that you had to shift in order to embrace this new reality?

John Arms: Oh boy. So you, you, I mean, you get into some really interesting psychological territory with that is, which is fascinating to me is early on yes, you're seeking financial. Help. Right. It's like the harder I work, the more money I can earn. Mm-hmm. The harder I work, you're work looking for some safety.

Right. If I work hurt per harder than the person in the cubicle next to me, I am more firm at this place. Mm-hmm. So there's some very practical things, whether those are right or wrong or good or bad. Mm-hmm. Not judging any of it, it just mm-hmm. It just was and in many ways still is. But there's other things, right?

You're seeking approval. Look at me. Look how hard I work. I stay. I mean, just think about [00:20:00] the, what you know. Are you gonna stay till midnight? The judgment that happens in the workforce is terrible. Shame. I wrote about shame this week. Like, you know, it's just the shame if you didn't work, if you didn't sacrifice your health and your family, there's some shame associated with it.

And a lot of psychological stuff comes in. It starts to spin together in a wash cycle and it gets more and more tied up and I don't think it's necessary healthy for everybody. So I was in that cycle for a long time and I decided to leave it cuz I didn't think it was healthy. . 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah.

Figuring out what's at the root of why we have, I, I love the picture you use the, the wash cycle. It sometimes is hard to untangle some of the different needs that we're trying to fill at some point. Unless you back to the space thing, stop, step back. Yeah. It's space. Figure out what, what do you need to still carry forward?

What is relevant? Cuz often it's really just I need a sense of connection. A sense of belonging. Sense of meaning. 

John Arms: Yeah. I'm reading brene Brown daring Greatly right now [00:21:00] and oh yeah, great book. A great book. Great book. And she, obviously researches all of this stuff and she's saying, , listen, we're hardwired for connecting.

 So if we're hardwired for connecting . Then what kind of connecting are we hardwired to?

Or will we just seek whatever connection is available for us? Mm-hmm. So if we're hardwired for connecting and community in a sense of belonging, does that mean we'll take the unhealthy and the healthy? So, for example, let's think about alcoholism. Mm-hmm. And all of that, like if we're hardwired for ne connecting, a lot of people will connect around alcohol and an alcohol abuse cycle.

Yeah. That's connecting. That's bad hardwiring. It's connecting, but it's connecting around a negative force and negative energy. So even though we're hardwired for connecting, We have to find where it's positive and where it's negative. Like I'd much rather be hardwired for and spend my time connecting in a giving way, in ways that help others in a way that's physically and mentally [00:22:00] healthy.

I find her writing super interesting cuz we are hardwired for connecting, but the work comes in. Where, , where is that energy, that hardware, energy, where should it go? I think we all have a good idea of where it needs to go. 

Jenny Lynne: I love it. And once again, all that takes white space.

 And for those of you that wanna kind of really dig into the white space, another recommended read, David Rocks, your Brain At Work is a great book that talks about how our brain generates insight, the importance of space in that process, what's happening in our, all of our different brainwaves.

But really simplified it. Your brain has to be, your executive functioning has to be quiet for you to grab onto insights. They're, they're, they're a layer deeper, and so the more that we're thinking and running a task list in our head, the less we're able to capture it. So white space is critically important in really unpacking all of this stuff and, and moving forward in this optimal way that you're talking about John and staying ahead of the bear.

John Arms: My, yeah, my big cathartic moment in the last six months. , and I thought, you know, [00:23:00] there's a better way to go through each day and through the checklist and a checklist with tasks, right? So I started to contemplate the day as an ecosystem. Not a list, not, not even chronological.

 So what I ended up doing is I drew a circle, and that's the sun, and I drew rays of the sun. Mm-hmm. And my day, the way I organized my day is, there's certain things that at the end of the day, did I do those things?

Did I read. Did I exercise? Did I go outdoors? Most of them are around white space activities, right? I always, every day I want to solve one big client problem every day. I want to do one big thing to lead the fractional movement, right? Mm-hmm. But I don't have, in my son with all of its spokes, I don't erase.

I don't have like what do, do, do, do, do. It's an ecosystem of more thoughtful activity, less that's more thoughtful. And that has been an absolute game changer for me. 

Jenny Lynne: Wow. I love the way you look at it because it becomes a non-linear, it's still a way to do activity, but because it's [00:24:00] non-linear, we can tap into a broader cross-section of our brain.

Yeah. Versus kind of lacking ourselves in and, and getting into the forest. We can actually take a step back and say, at a macro level, are all these elements. Folding into my day, well then I'm moving forward my vision for the world and for myself. 

John Arms: Yep. Yep. One thing I have to do each day is one give, I have to do a give.

 I fill my soul by helping others. . 

Jenny Lynne: What a great way to look at things. All right, so here's the part, John, where I quickly summarize what I think I heard your tips and your roadmap is. So you get to tell me how right or wrong I am and sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong. So number one I heard get outdoors, get some space.

Mm-hmm. See perspective. Yeah. It really helps you stay. I love this phrase, stay ahead of the bear so you don't have to outrun it. Stay ahead of the bear. Find joy and impact. So there's a lot of things that we can find that we can, that a lot of talk tracks we have. Mm-hmm.

But if we can just find joy and impact, it makes it easier to do amazing work and really kind of [00:25:00] get get clarity on our priorities. Yes, totally. Make sure you're , doing work that feeds your soul, so. Mm-hmm. It's, I heard a lot of that, like, let's make sure that the stuff we're doing is actually continuing to fuel that joy, which then goes out into the world.

Makes our lives better, our connections better, makes the world a better place. And I love this. Let it soak. Your biggest ideas come from the soak time. So everybody you heard it from John, let it soak, 

John Arms: let it soak absolutely. I. You, you captured a lot of good stuff there. I can't believe I said all those things.

Jenny Lynne: You're, you're pretty brilliant. John. You say lots of brilliant things cause you make it easy. My kids don't agree. My kids don't agree. My kids don't agree either. They're teenagers, right? That's kind of part of the part of it. Right? 

John Arms: Someday they'll realize our brilliance. Oh 

Jenny Lynne: yes. Maybe someday we'll all realize our own brilliance.

John Arms: That's right. . 

Jenny Lynne: and 

I'm so honored that you chose to be here with me. Thank you, John.

Oh, thank you. I, this was, 

John Arms: I, I, I enjoyed it. I hope I can do it again, and I hope it helps your community. 

Jenny Lynne: So everybody, you guys need to connect [00:26:00] with John. John heads up, Voyager you among other things. He's a former c e o and workaholic, and now he spends his time inspiring others to find balanced joy, health and prosperity in a decidedly unworkaholic manner, emotional.

John Arms: That's me. I love it.