Care More About Less ft. Tim Ash

If you had just twice as much energy to put into your relationships that you put into your work, what do you think would happen?

Logically speaking, they can only get better. Tim Ash had a recalibrating moment when he went to a Men’s Initiation Weekend to discover his purpose.

He went from a “get shit done person” to focusing on the right things that lead him towards his purpose.


Key Takeaways

• Step outside your comfort zone because getting comfortable with discomfort is the first step towards personal growth.
• Care more about less, and do more with less. When you have your energy back, a new world opens up to put more energy into the things you care about most.
• Instead of setting rigid goals, focus on the direction you want your life to take. It’s an endless journey.

Key Moments

{3:08} “What kind of legacy do I want to leave? What imprint am I having on them? It was really more much more of a recalibration of purpose at the purpose level, I would say, instead of being on autopilot.”

{12:12} “I realized that my whole self concept and part of this was about being competent, about carrying the weight for other people, about being the head of the family or the provider, all of those more traditional roles. And now that was built into me, and it was based on this flawed assumption that I was the star of the movie.”

{16:58} “We're always trying to figure out what to prioritize, how to rebalance, and we're never going to be perfect or good at anything. And then even if you do get good at something, who says that was a good investment of your time and life force? So I think starting with that sense of ‘no, it's always going to be in work in progress.’ There is no end goal.”


More about Tim

Tim Ash is an acknowledged authority on evolutionary psychology and digital
marketing. He is a sought-after international keynote speaker, and the bestselling author of Unleash Your Primal Brain and Landing Page Optimization. Tim has been mentioned by Forbes as a Top-10 Online Marketing Expert, and by Entrepreneur Magazine as an Online Marketing Influencer To Watch. For nineteen years he was the co-founder and CEO of SiteTuners – a digital optimization agency. Tim helped to create over 1.2 billion dollars in value for companies like Google, Expedia, eHarmony, Facebook, American Express, Canon, Nestle, Symantec, Intuit, Humana, Siemens, and Cisco.



Get in touch with Tim

PrimalBrain.com
TimAsh.com



Share your Story

Send it to us at podcast@jennylynnerickson.com


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Transcript

Jenny Lynne: welcome Tim Ash I am so glad to have you here. 

Tim Ash: Thanks. 

Jenny Lynne: And I am so glad because you have just a fascinating story and you are a brilliant human being. And so I can't wait to dive into all the different vectors of your brain and experience and how you bring this all together between work and life.

Tim Ash: Oh, wow. Well, with that kind of intro, there's only one direction to go down. 

Jenny Lynne: Never, never. So you're in season two and we get to start in the heart of the messy middle and we're going to start right at your moment. What was that moment where you stared down your relationship with work and realized, holy crap, this is not what it needs to be.

Tim Ash: Let's see. I'm Destroying my family relationships. I'm not making any money. I'm working [00:01:00] way too hard and I'm pissing off my co workers and clients. So, that was about five years ago. 

Jenny Lynne: A little bit of anger in there, maybe, Tim? Oh, perhaps, yeah. 

So, so you, you mentioned a lot of things, which meant that you probably walked through a bunch of trails before you got to that moment. Describe to me in detail that exact moment, where you were like, boom, boom. Boom. Like all of it started stacking up and you're like, Whoa, I missed something along the way.

Tim Ash: Hmm. I think the main thing was just the price I realized I finally was waking up to the damage I'd done to my family. And, and that's, that's something that some people don't talk very much about, you know, in this pursuit of work and finances, I mean, something has got to give. And I figured, oh, you know, my wife would keep the home fires burning and take care of the two kids and I can just go out there and be the breadwinner, the caveman that brings back the, dead [00:02:00] antelope or whatever.

And I didn't realize what a psychological price. I don't know. I was paying, but my whole family was paying that was that's when I decided a lot of personal growth work as well. 

Jenny Lynne: That's gotta be a hard moment to realize that those people who you love, who depend on you and you had been doing the right thing, the best thing with what you knew at the time, right?

You were doing the thing that you knew how to do with what you knew. And it wasn't, actually the best thing at that moment. 

Tim Ash: No, I was just working in one mode, which is, you know, get shit done mode, GSD mode, , just like like just work a little bit harder than, then they'll have all the good payoffs.

 But it, it changed me. I became this, you know, working, like I said, in one. Mode only. And I guess in union terms, you'd call that the warrior archetype. And that's the problem is I was bringing the warrior home to my family. And so I was like bossy and controlling. And it's like, you will do what I say because I said it, you know, it's like, well, that worked okay [00:03:00] until they became teenagers.

And then it kind of doesn't work anymore. 

This isn't the way I want to show up as a parent.

That was really what it was about. What kind of legacy do I want to leave? What imprint am I having on them? It was really more much more of a recalibration of purpose at the purpose level, I would say, instead of being on autopilot. So the it all came together and it's almost like a, you know, this buildup of a charge in a capacitor or battery, and then it's just like, you get the lightning and like this big discharge and it was just like, yeah, none of this stuff is directionally going , the right.

Direction. So, yeah, that's what it felt like and something needs to change and that's something needed to start with me but that's a whole nother story. And 

Jenny Lynne: that, well, that's what we're going to be diving into, but talking about it, what signs did you miss then about. Your kids and that you've mentioned the damage and we've all caused damage, by the way, I'm so much guilty of that.

I joke on a regular basis. My kids are, [00:04:00] I'm going to screw them up. It's just a matter of how much and do they recover? 

Tim Ash: Yeah. I mean, the only question is, will they be able to afford enough good psychiatrist time to deal with it and unpack it later, but that's their problem. Hopefully they'll have good careers.

Jenny Lynne: Exactly. So what what signs did you miss that maybe part of this was your problem to solve? 

Tim Ash: It's, it's just, I, I didn't really understand my own personality. The fact that my drive came was so important to me that achieving these goals. I guess I have a a personality typing frameworks.

I don't know if you're familiar with the Enneagram. I'm a type seven, but I have a wing eight, which basically means like I blow my way through life. And like go out there and make plans and try to make those visions a reality, which I think a lot of entrepreneurs and workaholics are that way, you know, but, but then you have to say, where's that drive come from?

And, and it's, it's really kind of an unhealthy. Maladaptation, I guess you could say, to what's causing that? Are you doing [00:05:00] it consciously or are you doing subconsciously? And I guess I signed up for like the socially conventional thing, which is just like, you know, business success and CEO of a company and, you know, write books, run conferences, all of that stuff.

And too much of my identity was wrapped up in the work role. That's the problem. It was completely unbalanced in that direction. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. Well, changing your identity is hard. So tell me a little bit more. You got to that moment. You realize, gosh, I'm showing up with this drive, but this drive 

is killing everything in my path that matters to me and you had to change your identity and get through the anger because we have to obviously get through it to, to actually get to the other side of it. We don't get to ignore the fact that we're angry. How did that journey start? What was your first step?

Tim Ash: Well, a friend of mine had gone through this men's initiation weekend about a decade before this happened. And I saw this really transformative change in him. He's had a lot of rough edges, but then he, when he went through [00:06:00] this, he just kind of went much more deeply into life and took a look at what he was doing and why.

And he, so he said, Hey, why didn't you check out this initiation men's initiation weekend? And. And I said I saw the change in you and I don't need to know anything about it. In fact, I don't want to know anything about it. And he might check it out. Well, no, I mean, I'm not known for being the cowardly lion, but, but just because I think you, you don't.

Initiation experiences, for the most part, are deliberately designed to put you in a state of uncertainty so you can be more open , to changes. And so I didn't want a preview, like I didn't want my head knowledge of what was coming up to get in the way of actually being in the moment. So I'm like, whatever it is, I know it's going to be psychologically safe enough and I'll, I've seen the transformation in you, sign me up.

I 

Jenny Lynne: love that. I love that. And you captured a really important point there that , when we know everything, we're not always as open. And so the more that we can leave ourselves open to the moment, the more we can [00:07:00] actually learn and develop from it. And it sounds like you put yourself right out there and day one headfirst.

Tim Ash: Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's funny because this all comes full circle. You and I met in the heroic public speaking program, the professional development program, and my latest speech is about polarization. And I talk about how do you bond and polarize tribes? Well, one of the ingredients is to create uncertainty.

Then we're much more receptive to everything around it. If you stay in your little safe box or in the immortal words of Pink Floyd, become comfortably numb, you know, and then, then nothing's going to change. Then, then you're just going to say, Oh, I want my, my latte and my yoga class. And I you know, watch sunsets and hang out with my friends and watch Netflix and okay.

I mean, I do a lot of that too, but. Except for the latte. I'm a tea drinker. There you go. Yeah, I don't really I think that putting yourself outside your comfort zone, I did in the work sphere. That was no problem. I [00:08:00] took all kinds of crazy risks. 

I had several near the edge financial conversations with my wife. It's like, if you can't reliably bring home this amount by this date, then you need to go and get a real job and stop farting around. So those 

Jenny Lynne: entrepreneurs is like. Please now. 

Tim Ash: Yeah, so I mean, I've taken plenty of risks in my life.

It was just directed at more like self change and inner growth. I think for me, those chapters happen when there's a significant pain. That's the only reason to change. So after my dad died, I had one of these soul searching episodes when I was 25. And this was another one of those is kind of like the pressure builds up and the log jam breaks, but it's only because of pain.

And go, I just want to keep working on being a better person without any reason for doing that. I mean, I think no one ever has done that in the history of the world. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah, there is. It's this whole idea of needing a catalyst needing an inciting event of some sort. And the question is, do you need it to come to you or can you actually manufacture it?

[00:09:00] Which I have seen some people successfully do as well, essentially put themselves in a situation. They know they need to change. They know the pain's not great enough to make the change right now. So how do they actually use an event in order to catapult them, like get the push over the cliff? Yeah.

Tim Ash: And I remember I was working at this big defense contractor a long time ago and The last six months there, I knew I didn't want to be there. I spent bitching and moaning to my coworkers about what a shitty place it was to work. And that was kind of my own way of getting, reaching escape velocity. And so then I, you know, I, I punched out of the company, but you know, I had to manufacture that level of discomfort by, by telling that story to as many people around me as I could.

Jenny Lynne: Our stories are so powerful, aren't they? Yes. I'm afraid so. So you had this experience at 25 with your first round of soul searching. And then another one and more recently in the last five years, what was similar and different about them? 

Tim Ash: Well, one was [00:10:00] due to, I guess you'd call it an An externally applied loss.

Okay. And my dad dying when I was 25. And you know, you can't do anything about that stuff and you just deal with the flood and the grief and all of the aftermath of that. And that was definitely transformational on a lot of levels for me. And but this was more of a. I did this to myself and that was, that was much harder to admit.

And so, as entrepreneurs, many of us tend to be a bit stubborn. I mean, you have to basically ignore the world telling you why things won't work and, you know, flip on the double bird and say, fuck you. Right. And I'm going to do it anyway. And so that stubbornness can be an asset. And so it was a positivity bias because, you know, evolutionarily where bias towards negative information about two to one.

So I think most entrepreneurs have to be optimistic by their nature. So you put together driven, positive and stubborn, and you [00:11:00] basically just keep going down the same road for too long. And in my case, that was 25 year odyssey of running a professional services firms. And probably about 10 years of that was, was just due to those inertia factors.

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like, you know, we all and I I've done this before rationalizing and telling stories about explaining the world around us and fitting it into a mental model. We can. We can understand, right? Which then gets us moving down these pathways. So you had this other pathway. You had, you faced the mirror.

You said, okay, I did this to myself. It's self inflicted. He signed up for this initiation weekend, which by the way, kudos to you. So You figured it out. 

Tim Ash: Organization called the mankind project, which I'd recommend the literally to any man who it's the ideas to give you a. Healthy retroactive initiation, the kind you would have gotten in a traditional society as a teenager, most likely, but we don't have [00:12:00] those rituals or circles of fully open men to initiate other men anymore.

Jenny Lynne: So What changed in that weekend? 

 I realized that my whole self concept and part of this was work was about being competent, about carrying the weight for other people, about being the head of the family or the provider, all of those, more traditional roles.

Tim Ash: And now that was built into me. And it was based on this flawed assumption that. I was the star of the movie, you know, and everybody else are like non player characters in my, in my kid's words, you know, in, in my movie or in my video game. And, and then it is really just this humbling experience of like, yeah, I don't know which end is up.

And I'm not that important. And in the grand scheme of things, none of this is, and there are no right answers. So I think they could the birth of humility God, I don't [00:13:00] know if that's the right word, but Yeah. And a comfort with unknowingness. I guess the word that comes to mind is surrender.

Like before I'd be the planner, I'd have plans, you know in five years I'm going to be retired. Okay. That passed. Okay. In another five years I'll be retired. 

So the first step, like I guess in 12 step programs, not that I've been in one, but you know, is admitting you have a problem. And so the problem is you thinking that I can control the world and control outcomes in the world. That's at the root of workaholism, I think. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. And, and by the way, I'm, I'm hearing little nods to your book.

I, I absolutely love your book, Unleash Your Primal Brain, but you talk about a lot of this in there as well, and kind of what drives us at a, just a guttural instinctual brain based level. Yeah. Yeah. And 

Tim Ash: that the conscious mind and the planning mind and the have very little to contribute to that process.

Jenny Lynne: Yeah, but control is protection. It's a sense of control makes us feel safe. 

Tim Ash: So then once you surrendered, what [00:14:00] were you surrendering 

Jenny Lynne: to?

Tim Ash: Well, I think for me, it was Let's do things that are directional. So it's not about goals, like I said, is in, okay. I had goals, which I, which I hit, you know, I'm going to have a plasma TV. I'm going to buy a Mercedes. I'm going to build my dream house. I actually did all three of those things that was on my roadmap in my twenties.

You know, but that, that wasn't the payoff. So like the, so now it's directional. Like you mentioned your, I guess, what do you call it? Vision statement or purpose statement. Revisited that over the years. And my current one that I came out of this mankind project initiation that I mentioned is I co create a world of peace, safety, and love through joyous expression and service.

That's my bag. So that's kind of like the North Star and pretty much everything I put through that values filter when I'm confronted with the situation, I go, okay, well, is that close to my purpose or on purpose for me or not? And if it's not, then I really don't give a [00:15:00] crap about it. It doesn't perturb me.

It doesn't do anything negative. It's just like non operative. Yeah. And if it is on purpose, then I'll put my energy into it. So 

Jenny Lynne: you're surrendering to the flow of energy that aligns directionally to your purpose. Like I'm picturing you know, you're, you're on a water down a hill and you're like, I'm running on the, on the rafts, but you also are releasing.

Noise and releasing that also means not only releasing engaging in it and working in it and happiness for it, but it also means releasing anger and other like, yeah, 

Tim Ash: it's like the way that I describe it as I care more and more about less and 

Jenny Lynne: less. I like it. That's beautifully said. I care more and more.

About less and less. Yeah, that's flipping brilliant, Tim. 

Tim Ash: Yeah, that's my insight for the day. Let's, let's stop the interview. 

Jenny Lynne: Right there, right there. Light drop. Alright, so you surrendered and you had a five year [00:16:00] journey to get to where you are today. So if you were to like. Describe it in, you know, colors and pictures and concepts.

Like, how would you describe that journey at five years that emerged? 

Tim Ash: Start with where you are instead of where you want to be. Just like, so an inventory of, okay, warts and all who you are, what your situation is, what your restraints are. And I don't mean like making little lists pro and con or anything that deliberate, but I just mean like having a realistic allowance for being an incomplete.

Broken human being, which we all are, you know, and so I like this phrase perfectly imperfect, you can't be good at everything. You don't have infinite amounts of time, you know, you can be the best violin player in the world, but you might be a shitty human being. And in terms of your, Relationship with your kids or something like that, because if you put it all in parenting, then you'll neglect your health.

And you know, there's, there's just like we're [00:17:00] always trying to figure out what to prioritize, how to rebalance, and we're never going to be perfect or good at anything. And then even if you do get good at something who says that was a good investment of your time and life force. Yeah. So, so I think like starting with that sense of No, it's always going to be in work in progress.

There is no end goal, I think is important that, and that's why that purpose statement is directional. Okay. I can I can never stop co creating a world of peace, safety, and love. There's no end state to that. You just keep going in that direction. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's important. 

Jenny Lynne: So here you are five years ago, you faced your workaholic.

When did you know that your workaholic was gone and dead? Yeah. Yeah. 

Tim Ash: It's the amount of time I'm putting into work and the quality of my relationships with other people. That's, that's, those are the metrics, I guess, let's say, if you're making progress. So I, maybe it's just a function of, of my age [00:18:00] and being middle aged at this point, but I don't like to work hard anymore.

I mean, a good two, three hours is, is, is a good day. And I like the flexibility of the lack of structure. 

 Like I can do a lot more with this kind of broad based wisdom approach, I guess you would call it as opposed to just running faster on the gerbil wheel. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. Are you saying you can do more and more with less and less?

You got me there. You're brilliant, man. Like, I think we got a theme. 

Tim Ash: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's more like

Doing more with less isn't, it's less of me. It's actually more energy, but it's just coming through me as a channel from outside various synchronicities come into play flow state, whatever you want to call it. It just seems to get triggered more frequently. So it seems effortless. As I'm not doing the work.

Jenny Lynne: I love it. So here is the fun part where I get to kind of try to recap what [00:19:00] you said.

So number one is you have to experience pain and more specifically, you have to pay attention to the signs of pain and not rationalize or write stories around it. But there has to be enough pain that you are willing to experience to be able to make the change. 

Tim Ash: Yeah, until pain reaches a certain threshold, we're not going to do anything about it.

Jenny Lynne: Mm hmm. There you go. All right. So now step two, put yourself outside of your comfort zone because if you're in your comfort zone, you can't really make change. So in that space of uncertainty, but, but I also heard you say where you feel psychologically safe and some sense of confidence that you're embarking on a path that will.

Help you get to where you want to go. I say got like this beautiful little. 

Tim Ash: Well, well, you know, like the, the journey of a thousand miles starts with this single step. I think it's like, it's, it's, you don't have to know your end state in that sense. It's just, it's directional. Yeah. So, so just small steps.

They're not going to be as [00:20:00] painful. It's like, Oh, I got to change my whole life and my relationship to business and my family and my health. And it's like, that's too overwhelming. You're just like, I'm going to take one little tiny step in the right direction. 

Jenny Lynne: And yours was the Mankind Project. And I was 

Tim Ash: going through that initiation weekend.

Yeah. It's amazing. It's called the New Warrior Training Adventure. 

Jenny Lynne: Okay. New Warrior. I love that. Then step three. Okay. Thank you. Realizing that you're not the star in your own show, but that the whole, everybody is all acting together and it's, we're part of one very larger story that we can't even see 

Tim Ash: We're definitely part of something larger. It's just how do you define larger?

Jenny Lynne: That's what I always say. Number four, step number four, surrender to where you are and align it directionally with a purpose. 

Tim Ash: Yes, you know, be honest about where you are, where you're starting, what your strengths and weaknesses are,

Jenny Lynne: And I've learned it takes iterations, but it's all on a similar theme. So like [00:21:00] I had my first purpose at age 15.

And then reset it at about 25 cause so much had changed, but it didn't fundamentally change the expression of it just changed. So it went from being, I'm my earlier one was when I find a place that exists beyond my wildest imaginations and exceeds my greatest expectations. That's when I know I'm alive.

And that turned into, I make glorious mistakes and in doing so invite others to do the same. It went from a me focused. To a world focused view, but the, the idea is still the same. It's a comfort with, with making mistakes and putting yourself out there beyond what you're comfortable with. 

Tim Ash: The perfectly imperfect part.

Exactly. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah. Yeah. So a beautiful, okay. So then the next one is you started to care more and more about less and less. I am going to like totally write this one down. I 

Tim Ash: yeah. And, you know Mark Manson's got this book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. And he basically says similar stuff. I mean, it's just the wisdom's existed for thousands of years. It's like, life is suffering, first truth of the Buddha, right? [00:22:00] And it's about what's worth suffering for? What's your value stack?

You know, and it's like certain things you passionately care about. And other things like crying babies on planes. Who cares? You know, someone cut me off in traffic. Who cares? You know, it's just, in fact, that Buddhist term of nirvana, most people think that's like some blissed out state and communing with God.

It actually means like the extinguishing of something, like, like a fire, like the going out of all desire. So you, you almost like you experience life with a stoic equanimity. Nothing perturbs you because all is as it should be in the first place. So, and I think ultimately, if you're really spiritually evolved, I guess you end up there, but I'm just trying to narrow down the set of things that perturbs me.

Jenny Lynne: I love it. I love it. A very reasonable goal for all of us. So, and then that's the next step. No, when you've arrived and, and what I heard is you arrive when. For you, at least it was [00:23:00] you spent less time on work and you did more and more with less and less time and started to realize like what really is important here.

And then the 2nd thing is the quality of your relationships and like outside of work. Grew and evolved. And those two things work. 

Tim Ash: I mean, we met through work. I'm super grateful for our friendship and connection. And it's like so there's no, there's no work life boundary, not because you're trying to cram so much into it is just like you're showing up as a human for other humans.

Yeah. What a 

Jenny Lynne: great clarification. I love that. One of my dear friends once said that she goes, I've, I've learned over the years that just showing up for a human means showing up for a human. And it doesn't actually matter what capacity you're doing that in. Yeah. That's some 

Tim Ash: artificial boundary in this kind of hyper capitalist society we live in.

Whatever. I love 

Jenny Lynne: that. Not buying it. Oh, I love it. I love it. And then along the way a couple of tips I heard was sleep, eat, exercise, and prioritize your key supports. Like I understand that those things come first and then the rest of it comes after, because if you are taking care of yourself and your relationships, you can actually take [00:24:00] care of the other things that need to be taken care of in 

Tim Ash: life.

 And then the last one, ditch the noise. Ditch the noise, because when there's all this noise, you can't actually hear what's going on in the present inside of you, but learn to release the noise.

Jenny Lynne: And like you said, whether it's the things that perturb you or the things inside of you, eliminate the 

Tim Ash: noise. Yeah, yeah, I do a little, it's not a journal, but I just jot down a few bullet points before I go to bed in a gratitude sense, like, it could be as little as, okay, I said, I love you to my daughter and she says, I love you too.

That's a rare thing in teenage land, right? 

Jenny Lynne: I know I've been having that lately and I'm on a high at the moment because 

Tim Ash: yeah exactly or you know you're what you're on a walk and the cat comes up to you and decides to grace you with his presence and say hello and let you pet its belly you know it's like so it's the god of small things is how I describe 

Jenny Lynne: it you know I love it ah any final words of wisdom for us 

Tim Ash: Tim Well, I haven't had any yet, but you've had to manufacture something.

No, like it just [00:25:00] work is, is this sick thing. That's just, we absorb culturally. I mean, how we talk about work and work, stuff like that. It's a disease. Get back to your heart and your, and your full in soul self. They learned out a bit too late, but it's never too late. 

Jenny Lynne: Yeah, that's beautiful.

Well, you guys, you'll find Tim's full bio and how to reach him on the show notes. But I really want to emphasize the point that counts the most, which is that he's a father. An amazing human being and helps people really understand, you know, how you tick and how do you want to show up differently in the world?

So check out his book. I love it. It actually helps you understand 

Tim Ash: how you take that part. You just go back to go to primalbrain. com or to mash. com. All 

Jenny Lynne: the reach me there. Yeah. I love it. I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Tim. You have a fantastic 

Tim Ash: day. Thanks. You too. Jenny Lynn. It's been an honor and a pleasure.

[00:26:00]