Have you ever peered into your family tree and found a story that's tangled, moving, and a little surprising? That's exactly what Kathleen and I discuss in our latest podcast episode.
Kathleen answers two emails on air from the HTB Mailbag:
1. A compelling case is presented where a man seeks to understand his uncle's paternity, bringing to light the sensitive nature of uncovering hidden truths within our lineage.
2. A question on the ethics of genealogy research, emphasizing the importance of clear communication and honest cost transparency.
Be sure to bookmark linktr.ee/hittinthebricks for your one stop access to Kathleen Brandt, the host of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. And, visit us on YouTube: Off the Wall with Kathleen John and Chewey video recorded specials.
Hittin' the Bricks is produced through the not-for-profit, 501c3 TracingAncestors.org. Thanks to MyHeritage for their generous support to Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen! Follow us on social media and subscribe to HTB with Kathleen in order to enter your name in our monthly MyHeritage Complete Package giveaway starting Jan 2024!
Have you ever peered into your family tree and found a story that's tangled, moving, and a little surprising? That's exactly what Kathleen and I discuss in our latest podcast episode.
Kathleen answers two emails on air from the HTB Mailbag:
1. A compelling case is presented where a man seeks to understand his uncle's paternity, bringing to light the sensitive nature of uncovering hidden truths within our lineage.
2. A question on the ethics of genealogy research, emphasizing the importance of clear communication and honest cost transparency.
Be sure to bookmark linktr.ee/hittinthebricks for your one stop access to Kathleen Brandt, the host of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. And, visit us on YouTube: Off the Wall with Kathleen John and Chewey video recorded specials.
Hittin' the Bricks is produced through the not-for-profit, 501c3 TracingAncestors.org. Thanks to MyHeritage for their generous support to Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen! Follow us on social media and subscribe to HTB with Kathleen in order to enter your name in our monthly MyHeritage Complete Package giveaway starting Jan 2024!
John:
Ladies and gentlemen from the depths of flyover country in the heartland of America, the Kansas City on the other side of the mighty Moe, welcome to Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen, the do-it-yourself genealogy podcast that features your questions and her answers. I am John, your humble hubby host, saying welcome to new listeners in Jordan, egypt, nigeria, mexico and, of course, the good old USA. Now let's start Hittin' the Br. And, of course, the good old USA. Now let's start hitting the bricks. Well, we're finally back. This is one of the longest gaps that wasn't like a season break that I can remember, and the last time we were on was April 2nd with Lori Burdick-Miller from St Louis.
Kathleen:
That's correct, you are correct sir. In between time, John, we have done the Napa trip. We have come back with COVID. You had COVID through that. Luckily I did not get it, and so there's a lot of reasons why we have a bigger gap than normal.
John:
Didn't the podcast hit a milestone recently?
Kathleen:
It did. We reached 2,500 downloads.
John:
Oh, finally.
Kathleen:
Yes, it took a while, but we only do a podcast twice a month at the most, so that is about all our marriage can handle.
John:
Well for now. Yes, you're right. Actually, I think it would help if we did this more often, because both of us in our 60s at this point. Apparently, you need retraining every time you take a week-long break away from recording and we're two weeks and three weeks out, so it's kind of like a brand new setup. We went to Napa, but we didn't just go to Napa.
Kathleen:
We have several great clients in Napa this past week, both Caymus Vineyards and one client from the state of Washington and it was great doing the family reunion. It's called the Colossus Family Reunion. They're from Klingenmuster, germany, and it was a lot of fun because you got to develop their family website for them. It was wonderful and I did a new booklet for the family.
John:
It was an experience.
Kathleen:
It was an experience, and it was not a smooth one, because we didn't have a lot of time.
John:
And that's how we end up out there, through the longstanding relationship you've had with this particular client and the research you've done in the family it was one of the conversations we had with Lori Kind of the appreciation level goes beyond like the financial compensation. So when you dive into a family's background and you start knocking down brick walls for them, a relationship tends to build. That's not just thanks for doing that work. For me it's like thanks for helping me discover my family.
Kathleen:
You're right. Thanks for helping me discover my family. You're right, I don't normally attend a lot of our clients' reunions unless I'm actually giving a presentation or speaking at the reunion, which I've done quite a few of those. But in this case it's more like family, it's like seeing the same people every year. Well, this is only the second year for this particular family line reunion, but I've known this client for over 20, about 20 years I think. I think Napa was fun. I don't want the people to think that we don't like Napa.
John:
That's the thing, is that, no, it's not something we'd necessarily choose, but we really do enjoy it when we go, because we have our haunts. Now, right, because it's kind of like the first day we're in, we're going to Mustard's Grill. Yes, that's, that's a. We love that place. That's a load of fun. And then what is it? Gotts? We have to hit a Gotts run at some point, At some point we're having Gotts and having one of those ridiculous burgers. They are ridiculously delicious.
Kathleen:
And ridiculous burgers. They are ridiculously delicious.
John:
And then, typically, we get to have something completely off the beaten path, something that, like your client typically picks.
Kathleen:
Yes.
John:
For some dinner somewhere, which is always an enjoyable time with he and his wife, and we compare Negronis.
Kathleen:
I didn't know that you and Chuck were comparing Negronis.
John:
Yes, so the Napa trip as always, always, it was a lot of fun. There's always something new, uh, and we always get to meet and talk with uh new people from uh this particular family and also new people that we just meet out in uh when we're out and about in napa. So we have a lot of really nice conversations. I think we had dessert and coffee one night and met.
Kathleen:
That's enough.
John:
That's enough, john. Okay, so we don't want to talk about that. That was a personal experience that we don't have to share. Okay, your personal experience that we're not going to share. I don't think it's necessary.
Kathleen:
Okay, I'll make a note of that we also have a.
John:
we had in April. We had Sharon Cumberland who received the MyHeritage Complete Package. Oh, did I say Sharon was in March or April?
Kathleen:
She would have been March. She's in March. We haven't done April yet. She would have been March yes.
John:
So we have that coming up, which should happen in a few days, and that is just make sure you're a subscriber on our link tree. Yes, if you subscribe to the link tree app that uh, for hitting the bricks then you will be eligible for that my heritage complete package, which is a 300 value, and you should have a whole lot of fun after that. And let's see what else. Do we have anything else to cover from the past?
Kathleen:
I don't think so, I think today. You said you had some questions from the mailbag and you wanted me to answer them for you and this is uh.
John:
We'll go to the, to the mailbag. I have the mailbag, which is digital, um, so I have these digital documents that are rustling in my hands. Delicious water too, by the way. Stay hydrated, folks. It is, uh, just water. Okay, here's the first email and it's addressed to kathleen. I recently received my autosomal dna results and noticed something that puzzled me. According to my understanding, my uncles and I should share approximately 1,700 centimorgans, yet my DNA results indicate a match of only 828 centimorgans. Is that right? Centimorgans? That's correct. Okay, I'm a bit perplexed by this difference and was hoping you could shed some light on the matter. Could there be any particular reason or factors that might explain such a significant variance in the expected versus the observed? Any insights or guidance? Thank you greatly, much appreciated in advance. Thank you for your assistance.
Kathleen:
Do we know if this is a male or a female?
John:
This looks like a male. This is a male. A female this looks like a male. This is a male, according to my uncles. Okay, so this is a male writing about his uncle.
Kathleen:
Okay.
John:
Does that make a difference as opposed to a female writing about their uncle?
Kathleen:
Well, it depends. If they have the same surname meaning there were two brothers you know from the Then they can also take a Y white DNA test to see if it agrees, but I can tell you it probably won't agree.
John:
Okay.
Kathleen:
The white DNA test will follow a surname pattern. It sounds like what I like to call a non-paternal event. Most of us call it a non-paternal event. There's a lot of other reasons for it. If you are supposed to be a nephew uncle relationship, that you should be matching closer to 1700 because, okay, so there is a.
John:
There is an issue there it sounds like you're either a half nephew, uncle, or there's another relationship um, okay, so when you say the parent that could be the parent of the nephew is not who we think the parent is, or the parent of the uncle may not be who we think it is, that is correct so really, it's not necessarily so. It's not necessarily the person who's writing their mother or father. It would be the mother, wouldn't it?
Kathleen:
It could be either one, it could be anyone at this point.
John:
We don't know the relationship there between his parents and this uncle.
Kathleen:
Right. So this is what I would suggest. I would find out if that uncle had another brother, a living brother, if they had a living brother, I would make sure that living brother was tested. If there's not a living brother and the uncle had children, I would test to see the level chroma, the chromosome level, that the children had with this nephew.
John:
Now you're saying chromosome level, do you mean centimorgan, or is that the same thing?
Kathleen:
I do mean shared chromosomes or share. Yeah, the centimorgan level as far as the number.
John:
But the shared chromosomes okay I'm assuming that there's a something that would imply if it's 1700, yes, that's an uncle. If it's, how many are there? If it's 2500, it's, well, you can put it into.
Kathleen:
DNA Painter. Or you can just look and see the base. There's lots of charts out there called Cousin Charts or DNA Painter, and then we can kind of just take how many cinnamoric morgues you share and know the basic range. And then you have to turn to the paper trail to find out okay, what do the two trees look like? Yeah, 828 is not an uncle-nephew relationship, so I would test a lot more people. There's a lot of reasons for it.
John:
This is also the reason why this stuck out to me is that this is very similar to my own circumstances, that I don't know, that we've talked about on the show.
Kathleen:
No, we haven't.
John:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
This is identical to your Uncle Ted. I was able to test your other first cousins, or I got to see their test. One is correct, it's right, love of Cinnamorgans. But Uncle Ted's children were not, or the one who's tested.
John:
Right, so when you start looking at my cousins, then we're not testing his cousins and he's not testing as an uncle.
Kathleen:
You're testing as half of both. There is one of the parents. You're a half cousin, half uncle. There's more to the story Now. Because we have enough in your case of first cousins tested, and we had your actual uncle tested also as well as you, I was able to actually find who were his parents as far as the family line, If Uncle Ted and your mother are full siblings.
John:
Which they were not, as it turns, out.
Kathleen:
They were not.
John:
You know, and here's the thing for me that always sticks is Uncle Ted was the favorite uncle. He was the uncle that visited the most. He always made a point to kind of stay up on what we were doing, what my brothers and I were doing, and that I mean that went all the way to his recent passing, just last year, and so you know, it's one of those things as far as biological connection to me is not so meaningful. It's interesting but it doesn't indicate connection.
Kathleen:
And we don't know who knew that Uncle Ted was not your full uncle. We don't know if his mother knew she, in this case, actually had a child out of wet mud.
John:
Here's what I do know. If my mother did know, she would not have told me. Anyway, I would have known nothing about it.
Kathleen:
Well, this is the one thing about DNA. At one point, you're snooping. You're snooping on your ancestors. I mean, that's what we do with genealogy we come up with their secrets that they didn't want told Again. This is why I tell a lot of my clients don't take this if you're not ready for a shock, because there's almost always a shock in every family.
John:
Okay, so thank you, and let's look at. I've got another piece here.
Kathleen:
Oh, there's another one, are you?
John:
ready. Can you handle two? Yes, okay, so reaching out for your expertise? Wait a minute on a matter. This is kind of disturbing to me and I'm going to let you handle it because I know what I would say. So this is a veteran in my late 70s, I'm on a fixed budget and don't have unlimited resources at my disposal. Recently, I contacted a genealogy service to inquire about tracing my family history service, to inquire about tracing my family history, specifically to find information about my third great-grandfather who, I believe, lived in Ireland. However, I was quite taken aback when they quoted a price tag of $10,000 for their services. Given my circumstances, and I'm unsure if this rate is reasonable, I can tell him he's not, it's not, or if I should seek alternative options. Thank you for seeking alternative options, kathleen. What do you have to say about this, because I'm flabbergasted $10,000 for what you said third great-grandfather right.
John:
He's looking for a third great-grandfather.
Kathleen:
So that's putting his family early in some Irish records. You said Ireland, that's putting his family early in Irish records, and true enough it is possible that this research could cost $10,000. But the way you read it, John, it sounded like they were asking for a lump sum up front. Is that correct?
John:
That's how it's represented that, yeah, they didn't say it might run me this. It says they were looking for $10,000 to begin the research.
Kathleen:
And so my answer is that is not reasonable, that should not be the norm of any genealogist, because it's possible we do 10 hours or 20 hours or 40 hours and we realize there are no records for this village or this person. So what are you doing with the other six thousand dollars? I'm assuming there would be a trip to cabo or um there's something called accountability of my money and you know be a good custodian of the money of the client.
John:
So generally okay to get started.
Kathleen:
Does a genealogist say write a check and I'll start looking and I'll let you know when I got something to tell my clients this is what it would take for the first 20, 25 hours, depending on if they have a retainer packet or a basic type research packet of some sort and they get a report. They know what I've done, what I found, where I would look next. If I haven't been successful and gotten their answer, what is left for me to do. That would give them more of a conclusion. There's so much more. The client deserves to know how their money is spent and what you're going to do with the next 20 to 25 hours.
John:
What would I expect from a reputable genealogist? What am I going to hear Like when you talk about selling hours when you're doing the hours? What do you do with that? How would? What would I expect?
Kathleen:
For $10,000,. I would never charge that up front because you don't know what you're going to find Okay, but what would you?
John:
what would you tell me? My goal is my third great grandfather, right. You and I don't even know. We don't even know how, how much information I've already got. I might just have my parents name and that's it, right. So you need to have all of that. So, knowing that, what do you? What do you do with the guy?
Kathleen:
It could be. Whatever the researcher's hourly rate is times, 10 hours or 20 hours, it depends on what kind of package they sell. Our basic packages can be as small as 10 hours, but as I get closer to colonial America that basic package might be 20 hours, and the reason is because I can't really find what I need in 10 hours, and I already know that. So I'm going to go through and then the client will get a report every 20 hours versus 10 hours.
John:
But to start with, you're going to do 10 hours and then until you're really in that spot where now it's taken longer to get as far it takes before 1820, yes, With slave research it might be an 1840 timeframe.
Kathleen:
It just depends. And it depends on how much I find in that first 20. That's why I don't know how you can just say it's going to cost you 10,000. To budget for 10,000 is one thing, because they might have a reason to say in that particular county in Ireland we know we're going to have to go book by page by page in a book and it's hard to read and blah, blah, blah. So that is possible and there are a lot of times I have clients who spend in the excess of $10,000.
John:
Well, let me ask you this If I've got somebody coming in doing, let's say, maintenance on a house appliance, then generally, or even a car, then generally. They're going to say look, we're going to start telling you that when we get over $200, we're going to notify you and give you an idea about what it is.
John:
Is that a reasonable expectation for somebody who's hiring a researcher? Yes, so where, when you start getting into really getting into chest high records that it's going to be like we're going to to research for 20 hours, you might get one name out of this and it's going to cost you 20 hours of research.
Kathleen:
you communicate that right I'm not bargaining with the client. There's a flat rate. I mean we have post-it rates, but I it's like you said, with the car. So in my, when I take it to a mechanic, they look in the book and they said the expected time to put in a new fuel pump is X. Now there could be some other issues which will add to that fuel time. I expect that, but like a mechanic's book and guidelines, the genealogist should have an idea of what it takes and no one should be saying it's $10,000 up front and I have no idea if I'm going to get any further. And for that reason I advocate that we keep scammers out and that we don't do that. People should be accountable for the money that you give them.
John:
So we don't necessarily know that this is a scam, or do you have a feeling that it is?
Kathleen:
I think it's using your clients. I don't think it's a fair way of treating people. Matter of fact, I find it lacking integrity. How do I know what you've done for the first 20 hours?
John:
or 40 hours or 50 hours?
Kathleen:
How many hours am I getting for $10,000? And what have you actually done for?
John:
that.
Kathleen:
And I know they'll say, oh, we did the logbook at the end. But my thing is no, I want to know and I should have the option to back out or not. After spending X amount of money, I should have the option to say never mind, it's not that important.
John:
So you and your clients will have will decide how much basically they want to pay for certain levels of research.
Kathleen:
That is correct.
John:
Like I never really cared for that side of my family. You don't need to go that deep in there. That's correct. It's too hard, forget it, yeah.
Kathleen:
I have client. I have a client now that I finally looked at her and said no, I'm not doing more research for this part. We can wait and see if we get better DNA matches, but there's no reason me going further for the money you've spent. And the reason is not because you don't want the answer, but it's because my chances of getting that answer is really slim during my lifetime.
John:
Because you're still a work in progress when it comes to verifying research and using DNA. We don't have a significant portion of the population that has their DNA. Tanya. Absolutely not, and so I think, of course the CIA and the FBI already have all of this. They've had it for decades.
Kathleen:
Any more conspiracy theorists or you want to just keep talking about this?
John:
You know when the overlords show up, oh well, I forgot we had overlords.
Kathleen:
So I am going to say for this particular person who wrote this in that We'll call them YL. Yl, yl, il YL. I would say you need to shop around, get better answers and get a better policy that protects your money.
John:
And would you suggest that they contact A3 Genealogy?
Kathleen:
I love that kind of research, but no, actually in this case, if their great-great-grandfather is in Ireland at this point, I would contact one of my counterparts there, because they mentioned what county or do you know?
John:
No, okay, there was not a whole lot of information in there and again I was holding back because we don't want to identify anybody.
Kathleen:
I would have an interview with that person and say okay, what county do you think? What's the surname? I can decide at that point if that's an A3 genealogy project or not. All projects are not A3 genealogy projects, even though we do an extreme amount in Ireland. My own family was from County of Es Roscommon on my mother's side, so it's not like I haven't done an extreme amount of Irish.
John:
No, you have far more Irish than I do.
Kathleen:
Well, that's not difficult. Do you have any? I don't think I have that much. I don't think you do.
John:
Is there anything else you want to add?
Kathleen:
No, except that fella needs to guard his finances and trust his instincts. The fact that he wrote it in, he is correct.
John:
Yeah, he knew, yes, yeah, well, that's what I thought too, is that at least he didn't seem like he was in danger of writing a check. Is there anything else that I've forgotten, which I'm sure there's something.
Kathleen:
Well, I didn't. So the chiefs got worthy. Is that important?
John:
Mm-hmm.
Kathleen:
Travis Kelsey continued his contract with the Chiefs. Is that worthy?
John:
In two years. Yes, we were happy about that. Yes, absolutely. Is Worthy worthy? Yes, Worthy's absolutely worthy and Travis, of course, anything with Taylor Kelsey.
Kathleen:
Yes or.
John:
Travis Swift. Anything there?
Kathleen:
And we do have a great guy who will be protecting our Patrick Mahomes out of BYU. That's another good news.
John:
All right. So what else are we doing?
Kathleen:
I think that's it, John.
John:
We have a dog to feed. He's pretending that he has passed on, laying outside of the door. And, john, you have a wife, so it might be about time to feed him. And you have a wife, so it might be about time to feed him.
Kathleen:
And you have a wife to feed.
John:
Then let's take care of that. Thank you, let's do Well. Congratulations, you've made it to the end of another episode. Thanks so much for staying. Thanks to MyHeritage and Legacy Family Tree webinars. Thanks to Chewy Chewbacca Brandt, our part-time conchologist and full-time pl, for his unwavering lack of interest in anything we're doing. The theme song for Hittin' the Bricks was written and performed by Tony Fisknuckle and the Smacks Watch for their next appearance at the Ratskeller behind the Student Union at Morehouse College. You can find us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Do you have an interesting story or an idea for an upcoming episode? Stop by our Facebook page at HittintheBricksWithKathleen or drop us a line at HittintheBricks.