Closing Chapman's and Choosing Family with BJ Lieberman

If you’ve spent any time around the Columbus food scene, you probably heard of BJ Lieberman.

He’s the chef behind Chapman’s, Metsi's, Ginger Rabbit, and one of the most thoughtful people I’ve met when it comes to food, creativity, and building restaurants that people genuinely love.

In this episode, BJ and I talk about his path into the restaurant world, what it’s really like running restaurants in Columbus right now, and how becoming a dad has shifted the way he thinks about work and life.

We also get into the energy of the Columbus food scene, creativity in the kitchen, and the balance between building something ambitious and building a life you actually want to live.

It’s a fun, honest conversation about restaurants, passion, and figuring things out as you go.

Transcript

Warm-Up, Music Tears, And Intros

SPEAKER_02 0:00

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SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Say test test.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Test test.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Um okay, so the song.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

So it's at the end of the movie. Yeah, it's co the movie Coco. Okay. It's at the very end after everyone saved the day or whatever, and he's back with his family and he he's playing guitar. The whole thing have you seen Coco? No. The whole thing about the movie is that the family is outlawed in music.

unknown 1:46

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

And the son needs to go into the afterlife to find his dead relative, who was a musician, who ended up ruining music for his whole family. And it turns out that every his whole family story was a lie, he solves it all. And at the end of the movie, he sings this song that's just it just gets you in the field. This one? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

I need to see this movie first of all. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And like the I love that email.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Well, it's also just like in the movie, like all of his like ghost ancestors are around, they're all dancing. Like, I'm gonna get missed you just talking about it. Yeah, but it's like, yeah, I love that. It's so good.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

I um music in general is always like for me, I can tell a lot about people, but I like specifically to know. I like to visualize like what makes you want to put your head through a wall. What, you know, like what would you listen to on a and then the cry one because I feel like it just like says a lot about who you are.

unknown 2:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

You're a mush ball, you're a ball of mush.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Uh I can be.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Because of Disney and the kids, and the kids will bring that out on you.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah, and you know, uh, I don't know, family stuff, yeah, things, life, life, the world, the world right now.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Well, BJ, welcome to the Carrie Croft show.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

So we were connected by the one, Kathleen Day.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

She came in. Now, speaking of songs, she hasn't dropped yet her episode. We were singing, like it was embarrassing, Sinead O'Connor. And like REM. I mean, the musical synergy going on between the two of us was like Jeff's Kiss, if you say.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Those are two uh artists that I would not even try to sing their songs live on on a microphone.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

And try, we did. And we we achieved, we achieved a very it sounded a little bit like two howling dogs.

Columbus Food Scene And Chapman's Hype

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, that's that's on that's on brand for for Kathleen. She's she's wild. You guys are buds, yeah. Uh know each other through the restaurants pretty much exclusively, but I go to Catalina's a lot and she used to come to Chapman's all the time.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

So yeah, this restaurant scene has to be wild.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

It's a really cool food city and it's on the rise. And you know, if you want to dive into that, we definitely can. But uh yeah, I I really love being in Columbus and I think there's a lot going on here, and uh the last five years have been a pretty wild time to be in this city.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

So yeah. So okay, let's talk Chapman's first.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Sure.

Why Chapman's Closed: Life Over Legacy

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Because again, like I just told you, I don't get out much. And I remember, you know, Chapman's Chapman's. It was like this. I mean, Chapman's had hype that like I don't remember a restaurant having that kind of big city hype. I remember going, loved it. Everything, I don't even remember, I'm not a foodie. I don't remember what I ate, but I lovingly ate it all. It was incredible. I'm like, this place is like incre I loved it. Well, then time passed and I didn't even know that it closed. So in my mind, in the back of my mind, it's still like, you know, out the door, waitlist, whatever. And I didn't find out until Kathleen, and I'm like, wait a minute, how first of all, how am I this? Let's make this about me for a second. How am I this disconnected from anything remotely cool in the city or wherever? What happened what happened? And I know the restaurant industry is fickle, but what what did what happened in your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 4:50

It was a lot of different things. Um, at the end of the day, it was my decision. Um, and we could have kept it going. Um, we reached the end of our first five-year lease term, and I had a decision to make of whether I wanted to sign on for another five years. Um, it wasn't the landlord like raising rent or anything. All those things were negotiated into the original lease. The the rent uh was, you know, an escalation, but in a way that would have been fine for me. Um, it was really my life. When we opened Chapman's, I was very dedicated to being a chef and my craft, and I was used to working 90-hour weeks, and my wife is a nurse. We work opposite schedules of each other. We are both fiercely independent people. So, like we our marriage has never been based on like mutual, um like needing each other, yeah, codependence exactly. Uh, then the pandemic happened, and um, we got you know very stuck under the same roof and realized that we really do like spending time together. And we ended up having a kid, and I really like spending time with him. And the 90-hour work weeks just didn't work for me anymore. And as we opened Metsy's and Ginger Rabbit, my time was getting more and more and more chewed up. And looking at Chapman's and the fact that we had a and a really logical and uh advantageous off ramp uh to to to get my life back in order just made sense. And you know, from like a uh like legacy standpoint, it's hard to be like, yeah, I'm gonna cut off one of my limbs that I care so much about. But on the other hand, just looking at my life and wanting to spend time with my son and my wife and and uh not feel like I'm just working all the time. And uh, I'll tell you the the so I kind of was like on the fence about it. And um I was going through a really rough time between Metsy's and Chapman's and just working a lot and really stressed out. And you know, kids, they pick up on everything. And I woke up one morning and was going to let the dog out. And uh I did have to go to work, but I was gonna stick around for like 45 minutes. And my son kind of came downstairs and he was really sad and he's like, You're leaving already. And I was like, No, I'm just letting, you know, the dog out. And he was like, He's like, Well, have a good day at work, dad. I I miss you. And he just like walked away, and I was like, Well, that that's that, you know. Um, so I was like, I, you know, I'm working 50 to 60 hours a week now. And that was that was the calculus for me.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

You know, it's funny, like you say I'm working 50 to 60 hours. That's a lot of hours. But but I think in the restaurant world, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

No, it it really, it really isn't in a way. Um, but also like I love it, and that was never the the problem. Like the love of of doing what we do wasn't the problem. It was just when you're working that much and that hard and you don't have a choice in the matter, it becomes a lot more difficult to love what we do. And that's when I realized that, you know, sacrificing something that I truly love, spending time with my family for something that my love is waning for, it it was just a really easy decision to make. And and uh yeah, it wasn't like uh the landlord's raising rent or uh, you know, whatever. I mean, the restaurant industry's always been hard. We never really turned a profit at Chapman's, even at our like absolute busiest times. Um, it's it's impossible. It's a I mean, we're not turning a profit at Metsy's. Ginger Rabbit's actually doing a little bit, but we have investors to pay back. And like, I don't know how anyone's making in this industry right now. It's uh it's literally running a nonprofit for Do they make it because of you have to open so many?

The Economics No One Sees

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Is the scale part of it is where you really start to see like you can't really make a profit on a if you're like a one, I don't know. I mean, I I have I know nothing about the restaurant business.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yes, but I just know it's the scale helps. Um, if you can have one concept that you open a lot of, um, like take Catalina's, for instance. If I open three Chapman's Eat Markets, it becomes easier because you can have one menu that you're just replicating across the board. You have more staff that you can share and all those things, but I've never been the type of person to want to open multiple of the same concepts. Um, so like Chapman's was a one-off, Metsy's is a one-off. Ginger rabbit, I actually could see duplicating in another city if we wanted to, but then also I think about my life like everything's central to the short north right now. I can't imagine being like in Cincinnati or something too.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

So it is it doesn't sound far away, but it really is. Yeah. I mean you lose control like that and you have to drive an hour and 20 minutes, and it becomes everything becomes a grind.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

It's like I feel like we have to fight to you know, you have to fight to keep things from becoming a grind. You have a passion, you want to do something, and then you decide to open something. How do you keep it? You know, keep the love, keep the passion, but also make enough money for it to make sense.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yeah, it's uh a long time ago in my life, I decided that I would never make decisions purely based on money. Um, I really wanted to do things that I was passionate about and do things that didn't feel like work at the end of the day. Um I don't know, having a kid changes everything when I think about his future and his, you know, college fund and all that stuff. It it makes you a lot more practical with the things that you need to be practical about. And I still um I still try not to make decisions based around money, but I'm also a little bit more risk averse than maybe I was five years ago. If I go bankrupt, it's not the end of the world. If I go bankrupt now with with a kid, it it becomes a bigger problem. So um, yeah, I don't know. This industry is just really, really, really difficult. And uh I don't think that people understand how tight the margins are, and that food's gotten more expensive and labor's gotten more expensive, and we in the industry feel it before everyone else, because it happens to us in real time. So where maybe you only go to the grocery store once a week and it takes you three, four weeks in a row of realizing that your milk is more expensive. Well, I feel that on day one, and I feel that continually. And if we're raising prices in in line with with food costs, like our restaurants just gonna get expensive overnight, and we try to, you know, temper those things. And uh, for instance, Ginger Rabbit, we haven't done a price raise there since we opened, it's been three years. I finally looked into it uh deep dive a few weeks ago and was like, man, we are undercharging for like everything. And I didn't want it to be a shock to the system of raising everything by like two, three dollars overnight. So we're gonna do a little incremental like one dollar at a time, but the the numbers aren't numbering right now. So yeah, it's it's really hard. And we really do feel it first, and and labor costs go up. Um, we feel at first.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

I can imagine it's also hard to keep a consistent good help. Is it?

Culture, Staffing, And Keeping Good People

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Um, you know, I I think that depends on I think industry-wide, yes. Um, I think that as an independent restaurateur and somebody who's on site a lot, um, I try to create an environment that people want to be in. Um, it is work, but our mission statement is to be the most enjoyable restaurant to work and dine in. And the work in is really important to me. Being the most enjoyable doesn't mean that it's the most fun all the time, but creating a system where people can make a living, where they don't need to be stressed out, they don't need to take ownership over the restaurant, which I've been in restaurants where it's like you're in charge of all this, and I'm like, you're paying me an hourly wage. Like, what are you talking about? So um, yeah, we try to make it uh as comfortable of a job for people as possible in a learning environment and further their careers and all those things. So we have a pretty good staff retention um per like industry standards, but to that point, like yeah, we are still having turnover because it is the restaurant industry and finding new people who want to drink the Kool-Aid with us and and uh and get buy-in from them that this is a different restaurant than than a lot of other places in town. Um, it is difficult, but I would say that we have a better retention than most.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

And then you have things like the weather, like right now, where we have this impending doom where everyone's like, you know, the trees in Michigan are gonna explode. This was this is when I realized this morning. I was like, I'm not gonna like I need to like not look at this anymore. It's like it's going to get so cold in Michigan, the trees might explode.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I'm I read the same article.

Weather, Buckeyes, And Revenue Shocks

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Okay, yeah, okay, but I can imagine like that has to be challenging. You have so many puts and takes.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

You want to hear a real one that I can actually quantify with numbers? Yes. The national or uh Ohio State playing in the playoff game on New Year's Eve cost me$10,000. So really yeah, we had a big New Year's Eve party like we always do at the restaurant, and normally we can sell it out with absolutely no problem. And we did uh 70% of the business that I thought that we would do that night because OSU played in a playoff game.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

You know, Ohio State football impacts a lot of a lot of I had Annie from Bite This um in here, and we were kind of talking about that and how it impacts her sales significantly. Those those damn buckeyes.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

If if it's one of those things where we actually need to look at the schedule before the season launches and say, all right, are they home or away? Are they playing in the afternoon or at night? Are they playing a ranked opponent? Are they playing Michigan? Like, like what is each Saturday look like? And we need to forecast based on that because if they're playing a nighttime game against a ranked opponent at home, we're gonna be dead. I don't have TVs in the restaurant. I don't want people watching sports, I want them enjoying the company of others. So we're not a sports bar, we're not a sports restaurant. And yeah, if the buckeyes are playing a night game, we're just so Yeah, interesting. Yeah.

Early Food Roots And Becoming A Chef

SPEAKER_02 13:58

So did your love for food, you said that your parents ate out a lot. Like, were you just like at you were at all these restaurants? Like what would like what do you remember? What's the the visual, like what restaurants and what were you eating?

SPEAKER_00 14:09

And yeah, everything. I so I grew up in Northern Virginia, which is a very um uh diverse uh uh part of the country. Um, we've got people from all walks of life. Um, I mean, I went to to elementary, middle high school with like diplomats, kids, like everything. I have some wild stories about that. But um yeah, I mean, we would have like sushi, Chinese food, Turkish food, uh, Italian, like all in one week. And like it was, you know, we would do take-in a lot, but we would also go out to restaurants. Both my parents own their own businesses. Uh, being an entrepreneur is definitely in my blood. Um, so my parents worked a lot, neither of them were very uh skilled in the culinary arts, uh, as you would say. So um, not a lot of cooking at home, but a lot of eating really good food out at restaurants. So I've had a reverence for this since I was a kid.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

What when did you start cooking? What was the first thing you started cooking where you're like, okay, this is fun. I love this.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Uh you know, it's funny, because we ate out a lot and we didn't cook at home, I kind of thought that it was like black magic, you know? So it was like I never I never was exposed to like using a knife or any of those things. And when I got to college, actually, one of my roommates would cook a lot. Nothing special, but you know, just like boil pasta and pour marinara on it. I was like, wait, you can do that at home. Like I literally had no idea. I was like not domesticated at all like that. So that was definitely eye-opening to me that you could use your stove at home to do things. Um so uh yeah, and I went to college in Charleston, like big, big, big foodie city, and I started working in restaurants down there, and that just kind of gave me like a love for food. And then when I realized that you could actually do these things yourself, and like there were cookbooks that you could read about stuff, like making Mexican food at home and like doing it yourself, and it was as good as in a restaurant. That really blew my mind. So that kind of I have ADD. If you couldn't tell, I'm like looking all over the room right now. Um, but I have the kind of ADD where you're either completely disinterested in something or dive in as hard as you possibly can. Um, and those are the things like like food things definitely like get me where I'm like, I'll I'll just lose like three hours of my day because I'm just like in it. I want to learn everything, I want to understand it. And uh it the more you get into food, the more you realize that you know absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

How does your wife handle your ADD?

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Uh, she also has ADD and she has a very different kind of ADD than me. So uh we're we're very yin and yang. She's very um, she's a very outgoing person, very extroverted. I'm uh what we like to call an outgoing introvert. So an ambivert. Yeah, I can I can do this, but I'm probably gonna need like an hour of silence after.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Well, with hanging out with me, you may need a couple hours of silence.

Creativity On Demand And Finding Flow

SPEAKER_00 16:53

So we'll hang out with my wife too. Like she always like she'll never understand why, like, we'll spend the day together and then like I need you to F off for a little bit. I need to go sit on the couch.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Um, but yeah, being in a restaurant all day long, like I can turn it on, but when I get home at night, it's like I I need to shut it down. Um, so yeah, we we definitely have very different uh energy and very different uh forms of of attention. What's her name? Uh Bronwyn.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Oh yeah, I knew that because when you when I read that, the only other Bronwyn, I was like, oh my god, her name's Bronwyn. The only other Bronwyn I've ever heard of was one of the real housewives.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

That's how most people were interested in.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

How did she get that name?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Uh her family has Welsh heritage and it's a Welsh name.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Bronwyn.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Like I can imagine, like, you know, when you're getting in trouble or you're do they call her something like a nickname or something?

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Or it was like Bronwin, she she can r rattle him off a lot quicker than me, but Bweezy, Bron, Winnie. Uh she's got a lot of nicknames. Binie's a good one. Yeah. Uh, but uh yeah, I've just always known her as Bronwyn. I call her Bronny sometime.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

That's such a that's such a big name.

unknown 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Like a very like, is it so what's the word? Sophisticated or something. It's like Bronwyn. Yeah. I guarantee that's never just like a hi, my name's Amy. Like people need to talk about the fact.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

It holds some weight with that.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Yeah, people need to like talk about the fact that your name's Bronwyn.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Well, it's funny. She tells a story about how her mom wanted to name her Bronwyn and her dad wanted to name her like Mary or something like that. And she was like, Thank God my mom won that conversation. Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

But you can tell really who would hold the pants in that relationship because if you don't like Bronwyn, you're gonna be like, I'm not naming my kid. It's different, right? Which I would go for Bronwyn all day long. I like Mary too.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

There's positives to both, but Oh, I wasn't talking shit about Mary's.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

I'm just no, no, I'm just saying, like having like that unique, like standout name. Some people are afraid to do that. They're afraid to name their kids something because we're gonna like, oh, they're gonna call them this, and we're gonna like, you know, all the things.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

My name's BJ, I totally get it.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, right. So great. What's your what's the BJ stand-up?

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Uh Benjamin Joseph. Okay. Yeah. It's actually funny. My family's not religious at all, but all my siblings have very biblical names. My brother is Jacob Adam and my sister's Alexandra. So we're all all very biblical. Um, but uh yeah, my parents loved Mash and named after BJ Honeycup, which I'm Oh my god.

Life Beyond Restaurants And Future Concepts

SPEAKER_02 19:04

It's as sometimes it's as simple and as uh difficult as that. I keep thinking it again about Chapman's because in my head I was thinking, like, how did he let go? It feels like it you let go of that so easily. Like, you know, when you're an entrepreneur and you love something and you create it, there's like this, it's like a baby, right? But then when you say it wasn't turning a profit, then it becomes like if it had been turning a profit. Stress and inflammation take a toll on your body and your wellness. Relax, restore, and rejuvenate at Panacea Luxury Spa Boutique, book any service of$100 or more and enjoy two hours in our luxury amenities, unwind in our Himalayan salt saunas, recharge in our wet retreat space with a eucalyptus steam room, hot hydrotherapy pool, and cold plunge. Then drift into deep relaxation with our hanging loungers. What's your panacea? We'll help you find it. I have a new obsession and I need to put you on it. Mia Santiago is a celebrity stylist right here in UA, and she's the only person I trust with my hair. Her precision cuts grow out perfectly, and she's created something unreal. Headspace by Mia, her chic scalp spa. It's not just a hair appointment, honey. It's a full-on reset. Your scalp gets healthy, your hair looks expensive, and your nervous system finally exhales. If winter has you feeling dry, tired, or overstimulated, this is your moment. Go book with Mia Santiago and her amazing team. You'll leave glowing, you'll feel lighter, and yes, you'll thank me after.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Honestly, it would have been easier to let go of, because at least then it would have been like I know that we're like that it's in safe hands kind of thing. Like, I don't know, the the need to be successful. It uh it doesn't feel like a failure because we made it five years there, but you know, we didn't fully pay our investor back at the end of that restaurant, and I'm not sure that we ever would have. And, you know, those are the things that that really kill me about it. Um, but uh as far as like what's right for me in my future, and and I'm not a selfish person at all, but that was a selfish decision. Um it was the right thing to do. And and I think that when you know that you can sleep well at night, know it like let's put it this way I had many sleepless nights not knowing if we were gonna make payroll the next week, not knowing if I was gonna be able to pay my vendors and like not having that weight anymore. Uh, I sleep way better at night. I mean, I still have two restaurants that I worry about, but but Chapman's was the one that was always like so big that it just felt like it was such a weight.

Ethics, Margins, And Doing It Right

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Um it's so interesting too. I think it's a lesson. I don't even know if it's a lesson, but it's like an example of like, you know, you see this, like this allure, Chapman's and like every like it's busy and it's Like this big city thing. I remember feeling, and I was like, God, this is so great. And it was great. But then behind the scenes, you've got this guy who's like struggling to make it, you know, who's geppettoing all this stuff. And it's just an example that like what something looks like from afar, there's always somebody behind the scenes, like losing sleep, hustling, grinding. It's never this glamorous, glossy, entrepreneurial, like love story. It's always like a grind, a meat grinder.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

You know, the misinformation that's out there is like pretty wild. And I think that people have an assumption that restaurant owners are like rolling in the cash and stuff like that. When I pull up in my 2011 hand-me-down Subaru outback that needs uh new tires and everything that I can't afford, I think that there's a little bit of like, wait, that's what's up. And I'm like, yeah, like I don't make a lot of money. I made way more money when I was someone else's chef, not when I, not when I own my own thing. And not only that, all the money that we make gets poured back into the restaurant. So, you know, my wife works, she's got a great job, but you know, this world is really expensive and uh we're not like swimming in it.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

So no, and you I think you see stories, you see the Cameron Mitchell story, you see Bravo, Chris Duty, like you see those stories and you hear the highlights of like they sold X for X amount. And again, like you you go back and listen to the grind they went through. I mean, they each of them had their own journeys of like not being able to make ends meet or making decisions that were almost, you know, what that were very harmful as you go through the journey. So I think no matter what industry, whether it's restaurant, you know, when you're when you're looking at something or starting something, you're always looking for those like, you know, crazy, wild success stories, which is cool because you want to have a a North Star. You want to have, oh my gosh, like if they can do it, so can I. But a lot of people miss the like million steps that it will take to get there if you ever do.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Yeah. Right. I I mean the thing is it's it's it's about compromises. And this isn't me speaking ill of anyone or any other entity, but I have uh pretty strict moral code that that I like to work off of. And, you know, I'm I care about the environment, I care about the world that we live in, I care about my people. And there does need to be, in a lot of cases, a little bit of uh corner cutting on those things in order to really, really be successful in this industry. And I just know that I couldn't live with myself or sleep at night if I had a purveyor pulling up to the back of my restaurant that was bad for the environment, or um did labor practices that uh were less than than moral and and things like that. And that doesn't mean that we're perfect operators either. I mean, there's always things, blind spots and and uh things don't work that don't work for everyone um that I've had to deal with, and nothing hurts more than than an employee leaving the restaurant thinking that we did wrong by them in in some way. But um, you know, I've got at this point over 60 people that I need to worry about. So like it's not gonna work for everyone. And those are the things that that really bother me. But at the end of the day, like I could be buying cheaper food from cheaper purveyors that, you know, are grade whatever beef or or this, that, and the other. And like I just refuse to do that. And um, part of it is is uh the corner of the industry that I was brought up in. Um and part of it is just like my own moral code of I'm not turning a profit off of BS, you know, like we're gonna do it the right way or we're not gonna do it at all.

Awards, Recognition, And What Truly Matters

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Yeah. Well, you've got a James Beard nod, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Uh I made the long list as they like to call it. So semifinalist uh two years in a row. So that would have been 2021 and 2022 for Best Chef Great Lakes, which is basically uh what Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

That's pretty much that's like in your world. That's like you can't get better than that, right? Like, I mean, I could have I could have won. Well, right, but but you can say, like, I was a James Baird nominee.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

That's not why we do it. No, for sure. It's really it's always cool to get recognition in those things, but um I'm I've had a very blessed career with those kinds of like recognitions. I've worked in two restaurants that won uh best new restaurant in America from Bon Appetit, so helped open two of them. Uh Chapman's Eat Market got top 50 in the U.S. uh best restaurants the second year we were open from the New York Times. Um I've worked for two chefs who've won James Beard Awards. Like one of them I was his right hand. I was the head chef of of all of his restaurants. Uh I've won four Michelin Stars. Like I've done a lot, but that isn't the thing that motivates me. Um having having a team that that gels together and like being happy going to work every day. I'd give back all the awards in a second if I could just have like peace of mind that we're um that we're running the team and the the restaurant the way that makes makes us the best version of ourselves.

What Would You Cook Right Now

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Here's what I want to know. Hypothetical. We get in my car, I dump you off a giant eagle. Okay. And I'm like, I'm hungry. You're gonna make me, I'm gonna take you back to my kitchen, and you're gonna make me like whatever come like what you would think this James Beard nominee, Michelin stars, whatever, you're gonna put this in front of me. You can ask me any questions you want ahead of time, but what would you make me?

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Uh, I honestly can't answer that. When I go to the grocery store, I normally don't have a plan for like what I'm gonna do for dinner. I normally just walk in and like see stuff, and I'm like, oh, that would go with this, and yeah, let's make enchiladas tonight, you know?

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Um make a killer enchilada though.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Uh I I think that you'd be surprised how uh by the book I keep most things uh when I'm cooking at home or cooking for people. When I'm in the restaurant and I have a lot more tools at my disposal, is where we can get creative.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

But okay, we'll do okay, let's back up. Let's let's change this, let's change the scenario. You're gonna take me to your restaurant. That's a more uh what would you like your your goal is to like blow my mind with like the best meal ever?

Space-Driven Concepts And Expansion

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Oh God. Uh well, it really depends on the day. I've been really into making Peking duck lately. Um, so I'd probably do that. Um we have a wood fired hearth at Metsy's, which it's an Italian restaurant, but you can sure as heck cook a duck over a wood fire. So we've found an occasion. We've we've made up an occasion to do peeking duck about five times in the last six months. So I've cooked a whole bunch of ducks recently. I've been really enjoying that. Um I don't know, really love making pasta. So I'd probably do some sort of stuffed, stuffed pasta dish. Uh I don't know, for dessert. Um, I love making ice cream, so I'd probably make a really interesting ice cream flavor and pair it with something fun. I'd sold. Yeah, it's uh I gotta be my the my creative brain. Um I almost need to be like in that flow state to be able to do it, um, which I'm not right now. So like asking me to do something creative off the top of my head when I'm like not in it is hard. And that's another thing. If I'm like working on like spreadsheets, if I'm doing like money things, and then I have a call with like our catering director, and she's like, I need you to do a menu for these people. I'm like, I'm in math world right now. I am not in like creating it. It's a code switch.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Like you have to really like put yourself in a space.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

So that's one thing that I've learned in my uh it recently in my career is to actually look at my calendar for the day and put like things with like things. Cause like you said, code switching, like going back and forth to like I'm gonna be creative now and now I'm gonna be in like a really heady emotional HR meeting, and then I'm gonna be in a numbers meet. Like it doesn't work. I can't, I can't switch those those modes so easily. So um I try to be really careful about what I put where in my day.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Yeah, no, that makes sense. What have you thought this through? So with all of the like it's very tumultuous industry. Clearly, I mean, I know I daydream a lot about like what ifs. What have you ever thought to yourself, like, if I didn't do this anymore, like if I wanted to maybe have a little more simplicity, is there anything else that even could come close to what you're doing now? Or you're like, I'm gonna die on this hill.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Uh I don't want to die on this hill, but uh, I don't know, I've been doing this for so long, it's hard to imagine doing anything else. Um I think that if I didn't have to make a living, I'd love to just work with like nonprofits on I don't know, the the things that I've learned through through my career of like putting things together. Um how to uh how to get the the best for for a nonprofit, but uh I don't know. It's uh it's one of those things that I haven't had to deal with, so I don't know. I don't I don't really daydream about life outside of what we're doing. I daydream about like new dishes and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

That's a good answer, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

So do you think though, like, do you still have that bug where you're like, I want to open, like I do want to open something out? Like is your creative brain always kind of thinking about a different concept?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

There's always irons in the fire.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Always. And I am willing to meet with anyone at any time. So, you know, there is not a development in Columbus that I probably haven't toured already. Um, never seriously looking, but you never know when the right thing is gonna snatch your imagination. Um, but uh yeah, I never go into a project like knowing like I want to open an Italian restaurant, I'm gonna go find a space for an Italian restaurant. Um, what I'll do is I normally will just go look at whatever spaces people want me to look at. And if something is really speaking to me, like, oh, we could do a blah blah like I never set out to open a jazz lounge, just we found the space for Ginger Rabbit, and like that was obviously supposed to be a jazz lounge to me. So yeah, that's what we ended up doing there. Um, so yeah, it's really funny. Like, I never have a preconceived notion of like we're gonna do this, let's go find it, find a spot to do it. It's let the spe the space speak to us, and like, wouldn't it be cool if um we did this?

What Actually Makes Money In Food

SPEAKER_02 32:05

I agree. I I think that when you go into a space, like if you have loose ideas, it kind of solidifies or takes you down a certain path, just being in the like with the energy and the vibe, and I feel that too. Yeah, when we would look for fitness spaces with SOS. It was like or even when you're looking for a house, like you're like the space can speak to you in a way that like you know, it draws it in.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Do you though have any concepts in your brain that like you know that you look at where you're like, okay, I kind of would that would be kind of fun to do like uh Sure. But you can't tell me.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

We've got some things working, really? Um yeah, it nothing's uh nothing's imminent, but there's always there's always uh programs running in the background. So like I said, iron's in the fire. Um I love that. Yeah, we keep good relationships with all the you know big developers in town and stuff, and there's always opportunities for things, so we're kind of waiting for the right ones, but uh, you know, there's I've done a lot in my career and I've got a lot in my back pocket that that uh you know are just kind of waiting for the right opportunities to to show themselves. And yeah, that I wouldn't I wouldn't be I'm not actively looking to open another restaurant, but I wouldn't be surprised if something fell into space uh at any point in the in the near future.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Yeah, if I'm a betting girl, I'd say I can say this for certain.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

I am not going to be opening another full service restaurant, probably ever. Um Netsy's, I think was was the last one. Um, like I said, Ginger Rabbit, I think could be replicable. I don't have any plans to to replicate it, but I I feel like if I ever had a franchise, that would probably be what it would be. Um and then there's some other smaller things based off of other things that we've done that I think would do well here in the Columbus market, but I am not looking for a 5,000 square foot space to open a sit-down restaurant, probably ever again.

Advice To Young Restaurateurs

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Do you travel a lot around the country and look for what's out there and what's hot and what what's not happening here already?

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Um I can't say that I that I do that specifically. Um to to look at things. I mean, we love to travel, and when we do travel, it's always centered around food in some way, shape, or form. So uh I don't have my finger on the pulse like I probably used to, but it's still a um it's still something where you know I I typically know generally what's going on in the in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

But also at the same time, like I'm not trying to copy what anyone else is doing. Like I have my own things that I like that I want to share with people. And and uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Yeah, I was asking that because um one of my favorites is Mikey Sabaro. You know, he's owns Mikey's late night slice. And that's his, you know, he like he wants to bring something that's not here yet. Like he's very, you know, you know, he's so creative and he's so innovative. And I was just thinking around like, I don't know, like what is the most profitable? Is it fast? Is it like a piata? Is it like, and I I know that's not not necessarily like you're not in it for like just the money at all. You're in it for the passion and like for what you're doing. But I'm just curious, as like a young, if there are young restaurateurs or entrepreneurs that want to be in the food industry, like what is the like trend or the play? You know, like that's just my mind kind of goes into the bars make money.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Bars typically make money.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Uh yeah, but what about this whole sober curious in the in the like the alcohol industry? Like if those numbers are staggering.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

If you're in a big, big enough city and you're better than your competitors, you should be able to stay afloat. Um pizza, bagels, pasta, basically things that use flour and water will always make money. Um yeah, it's tough. Proteins are getting more and more expensive. Steakhouses, I don't know how they stay afloat right now. Um, yeah, with the tariffs on wine and stuff like that coming in, all that stuff's getting more expensive. But uh yeah, alcohol. You just make you make money on alcohol.

Personal Bits, Tattoos, And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Jeez, yeah. What would you say to a young BJ out there? Because somebody's listening. Somebody, I'm sure a lot of people look up to you. Like, what would you say to yourself, 20, you know, if if you were just starting in this environment? Because you don't say, like, you know, run, go do something else. It's like people are passionate about what they're passionate about. But what would set the tone for like a young entrepreneur that wants to open, you know, wants to be in this space?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah, uh, I that's a good question. Um, I mean, I can't really say to do anything differently than I've done. I mean, I've had a very blessed career, and and uh Chapman's, you know, maybe wasn't the financial success that everyone thinks that it was, but it was a success. I mean, it was a successful restaurant um that we made it to the end of our five-year lease term, and that's more than most people can ask for in this industry. So um, you know, I I think the biggest thing is just if you don't love this, then don't do it because it's not worth what we go through if you aren't personally like satisfied by by this work and by the people and by um I don't know. There's just such a subjectiveness to to everything, and uh trying to make everyone happy is impossible, and you just gotta do it for yourself and know that you're doing the best that you can do every single day. And I know these things all sound trite or or whatever, but um yeah, just take your own personal satisfaction from this. At some point, I'm hoping that I figure something out and we can make some money off of it. But right now I'm I don't know, I still feel young, even though I'm 42. You are young, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Your baby.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Thank you. As my hair is all gray, and uh I got a haircut yesterday, and like the sideburns when they came off, I was like, oh my god, it's all gray now.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

But you know what? You're lucky, you're a man. So like men are men become more distinguished as they age, and they don't, you know, it looks when you have the gray, it looks good. Females were always trying to cover that shit up.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

I I like my wife's gray hair, so she always tries to get it dyed, and I'm like, I think the salt and pepper looks good.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yeah, does she dye it brown?

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, yeah. She's always had really dark hair. So sometimes she'll put like some blonde highlights in it and stuff, and I'm always like, You're going through your midlife crisis. And then sometimes she like chops it all. She has like the longest, most beautiful curly hair. And sometimes she just chops it all off. And I'm like, what happened? One day, this is when we were living in DC. Um, our restaurant was right next to tattoo parlor, and I think that it was her like 27th or 28th birthday. She to treat herself for her birthday, she cut all of her hair off. She got three new tattoos and she bought a leather jacket and she came into the restaurant for family meal. And I was like, Oh my god, what just happened? I was like, You look beautiful about that.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Look at you. I like her even more now. Her stock just went up. Three tattoos at one time.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yeah, they were tiny. She got uh a constellation on her side, uh, a little triangle on her wrist, and I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

There's a but that's still aggressive. Good for her. I like that. Let's that she's impulsive. I was gonna say, you're that's an impulsive, decisive human being to be able to do all those. I mean, you know how many people sit on a just a haircut alone with that.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

I've wanted tattoos forever, and I can't get one because I can't decide on what I want to get. And like there was this one tattoo that I wanted for like five years, and I was finally like, I'm gonna go do it. And when I was like one month away from going to do it, I decided I didn't want it. And now I look back on it, I'm like, thank God I didn't get that tattoo. It would have been so dumb.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

What was it?

SPEAKER_00 39:17

It's um all right. When I was uh at Husk in Charleston, South Carolina, we butchered all of our own meats, and it's a great restaurant, by the way. Yeah, it was awesome. I helped open it. So uh so I was in the butcher shop for a long time. We would break down, we would get at least three whole pigs in every single week. So I would help break those down. And all the pigs get these little blue stamps on them from the USDA that are uh really cool. But if a pig was born, raised, and slaughtered and processed all in South Carolina, it got a special stamp on it that was the flag of South Carolina, or the shape of the state anyway, and they would do three of them right down the side of the pig on the belly. And I always thought that was the coolest thing, and I thought that it would be cool to get that right on my rib cage. Now I'm like, that is so dumb. Thank God I didn't do that. But when I was in my like early 20s, I thought that was like, yeah, I'm a butcher, like it's gonna be great. And I'm like, thank God I did not get the South Carolina flag in a blue pig stamp on my uh on my ribs.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Do you still have a do you still want one?

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Yeah, I so I think about it a lot. I've actually designed it a few different times, but all my f we've talked about music already, but I love music. Uh all my favorite cover art, I kind of want to get a sleeve of that. And then I have uh my dad's guitar, which neither of us ever were really able to play it, but it's a really cool guitar from uh the 1960s that's beautiful. It's called the Guild, uh, is the the brand uh Gibson ended up buying them later on. So if you've ever seen like Gibson guitars, like Guild is like they're pre-Gibson, they're beautiful, beautiful guitars. But I thought uh tattoo of the the guild guitar surrounded by my favorite album art, but then like I don't know, this is where my brain goes. This is how messed up my head is these days. But I'm like, I love the Grateful Dead, but like what if we find out later on that like they're in the Epstein files or something like that? And I'm like, what if I get a Grateful Dead tattoo and then find out they were on Epstein's Island? So like you know, I it's like there's a restaurant in uh Washington, DC called Ben's Chili Bowl that has a very famous huge mural of Bill Cosby on the outside of it. Oh it's been there for years since I was a kid. Um Bill Cosby's been on the side of this. I have no idea. I think it's probably still there. I mean, it's like it's iconic, it's a part of their brand. And it's like didn't see that coming.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

No, it's so interesting too. It's like the R. Kelly thing, like like remix to ignition. Remix it like if that came on, I would be jamming out. But then in the back of my mind, I'd be like, should I be jamming out to this? I mean, it's just so weird when like they say, never meet your heroes, man. Like some of these people, it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Yeah, that that's what scares me about putting things that are like pop pop culture kind of like on you as a tattoo. Where you can get it covered up though. You could, but then I need to get it covered up. It's like I just I just want something that I know will last a test of time. And I think that what I'm realizing is like you either need something that you feel comfortable knowing was a season of your life that you're memorializing for whatever reason you want to memorialize it, or just something that doesn't mean anything. Like, I know so many people just got a tattoo, they're like, what does that mean? They're like, nothing. And I'm like, I can't put something on myself that like doesn't mean anything doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

What's your son's name?

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Julian.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

You could do something.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Yeah, we've thought about that. Um, so uh the funny thing again, like another thing that I changed my mind on later on. Um, he was born, he has a uh uh what's it called? Uh God, why am I forgetting this word? Uh genetic disorder that he was only born with three toes on his right foot. Um, and it's the cutest thing. It's the cutest little foot. And when he was born, they did the thing, you know, with the ink on the paper. And he was tiny. He wasn't premature, but he was premi sized. So his footprint is like literally this big. It's the cutest thing ever. It's up on our fridge, and I really wanted to get that right here on my bad idea. But then what? I've just got a little footprint on my like I get it, and it's my son, but like I don't think you should.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

I figured it out. I've got it. You need a tat on your chest, like right here, like they do, like the bloods and cribs of Bronwyn in in old English.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

In old English. Yeah, what if I find out she was on Epstein's idol?

SPEAKER_02 43:18

She wasn't. She wasn't. She was not. She uh that would be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yeah. I uh, you know, we we've talked about if we ever got a tattoo for each other, like what would it be? And like it's just funny, neither of us are like that like nostalgic or uh uh I don't know, sentimental people like that. Like, like I don't collect things really.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

So I don't think you should get a tattoo.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Yeah, that's kind of where I've landed too. Like I want the I want a sleeve because it's like you know cool and it's in the it's in my industry. But yeah, that's my I'm like the only chef that you've ever met who like doesn't have any tattoos and doesn't know what they would do.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Yeah, like you say to the young, you know, restaurant like don't do it unless you really love it. You don't get a tattoo, because I was a dabbler too, like with a tattoo thing. I think unless you really love it and really Really want to do it, don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Because you're gonna regret it.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

BJ. BJ. This has been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

It it has been.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

You're a good dude. Oh, thank you. You're kind of shy.

unknown 44:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

You try not to be.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Uh I try to be outgoing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like I can speak intelligently on some things.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

I'm an energy reader and I can read that about you, but I like that. It's endearing.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Yeah. I I don't like speaking in front of crowds, but I often find myself in a place where I have to. I really like doing podcasts because this is relatively easy for me. But uh I don't like talking about myself, and that's all that we do on these podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Right, no, true. Very true. Well, I hope you enjoyed it somewhat. I hope you're not gonna go home and you know curl up in a ball and be like I I won't.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

I've got a nice uh 15 minutes in the car after this to decompress, and I'll be good walking into my next meeting.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Good. Well, I wish you the best of luck.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Whatever you've got brewing, you know, the new stuff I'm gonna be keeping, I'm gonna keep you on my radar, and I will come into your restaurant. Please do.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Let me know when you want to come to Metsy's.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

I absolutely will.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah. We'll see you in front of the the wood fire and uh you get to watch the show.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Yes, I will, yes, absolutely. And if you're still out there following your girl, follow me on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And until next time, go to Metsy's.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

And keep moving, baby.