Cultural Change through Coaching, with Chris Bromham

In this episode Matt and Naomi discuss the profound impact of coaching on school culture with their guest, Chris Broman from ICS Madrid. They explore themes of interconnectedness, the transformative power of coaching, and the importance of maintaining humanity in education. Chris shares his experiences and insights from introducing coaching into his school, highlighting the challenges and successes of this journey. The conversation delves into the organic growth of coaching practices, the importance of faith in the process, and the resulting positive changes in staff and student interactions. Tune in to hear a rich dialogue about the role of coaching in supporting a generative and reflective educational environment.

02:01 Introducing Chris Broman from ICS Madrid

02:38 Chris Broman's Perspective on Coaching in Schools

06:29 The Journey of Implementing Coaching at ICS Madrid

08:24 Challenges and Successes in Coaching Implementation

10:43 The Impact of Coaching on School Culture

11:26 The Role of Faith and Flexibility in Cultural Change

18:03 Practical Applications and Observations

22:14 Unlearning and Personal Growth in Coaching

27:58 The Ripple Effect: Coaching's Impact on Students

30:23 Looking Ahead: The Future of Coaching at ICS Madrid

31:36 Final Thoughts and Appreciation

32:41 Conclusion: Reflecting on the Conversation

Originally from Wales, Chris brings a wealth of educational experience and international perspective to his role as Principal International College Spain, which is now a European partner school for MSB, hosting coach education programmes for other schools in the region. Chris holds degrees in Mathematics and Sports Science as well as a Masters in Educational Leadership. He has taught across a range of international schools in Bahrain, Korea and Dubai. Before joining ICS, he was Principal of Uptown International School (a three-programme IB school) in Dubai. Chris is highly committed to helping young people find their passions in life through a strong co-curricular programme and inspiring classroom experiences. In addition, he is a facilitator and assessor for the National Professional Qualification for Headteachers, Senior Leaders and Middle Leaders, working with the Institute of Education in the UK.

You can find us on Linkedin at

Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/

Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Interbeing is made by Making Stuff Better https://makingstuffbetter.com/ and produced by Emily Crosby Media https://emilycrosbymedia.com/

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Naomi Wood: Hello and welcome to series four of the MSB podcast and to our new name, inter being 

[00:00:13] Matt Hall: in our previous seasons, we've explored themes like belonging, organizational health, and the future of education. 

[00:00:19] Naomi Wood: This time, we are returning to the source of what we do. Coaching and how the values of coaching can support people in schools to look both inwards, reconnecting with their own humanity and outwards to cultivating generative relationships with care and curiosity.

[00:00:38] Matt Hall: You might be wondering about our new name, inter being is a term coined by Zen Master tick Horn. It describes the deep interconnectedness and interdependence of all things. Nothing exists in isolation. Everything is in relationship constantly influencing and being influenced by everything else. 

[00:00:57] Naomi Wood: This thread of relationship of inter being colors, everything we're exploring this season, we are in conversation with voices we are drawn to in the world of coaching and with educators in international schools who were walking with us, reflecting on what's changing for them and the questions they're living into now.

[00:01:15] Matt Hall: We're not here to present coaching as the answer to everything. Instead, we want to have honest, open conversations about where coaching works, where it doesn't, and what possibilities lie ahead. 

[00:01:26] Naomi Wood: And this season is just the beginning. Inter being is also the name of our annual in-person gathering a space to explore these themes more deeply face-to-face.

You can find more about that in the show notes. 

[00:01:40] Matt Hall: As always, we are guided by curiosity and by the aliveness of the unfolding conversation between us. We ask everyone the same first and last question, but what happens in between is shaped by the people in the room, including you. 

[00:01:54] Naomi Wood: So thank you for being here.

[00:01:55] Matt Hall: Welcome to Into Being

Another episode this time. Oh, good friend of MSB. Uh, Chris Broman from ICS. Madrid is gonna join us. 

[00:02:09] Naomi Wood: Yes, indeed. And we pride ourselves on the relationships we build. And we've been working with, with, um, Chris and his team for, it must be three years now, and it's not a straight line bringing coaching into a.

Into a school environment. Um, and Chris has had real belief in our partnership and so yeah, we're really proud of the work we've done there and continue to do so. We really wanna hear Chris's perspective for him personally and the organization, the school or the stakeholders that are influenced when you bring coaching into the space.

So let's see what unfolds. 

[00:02:50] Matt Hall: Yeah, let's go have a chat. Well, delighted to be here for another episode, another one, and, um, yeah, really pleased to. Welcome. Uh, well, a, a long, a long-term friend of MSB, I think Chris Broman to, to the podcast. Um, you're really welcome, Chris. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

[00:03:12] Chris Bromham: Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. Matt, nice to see you. And you Naomi. Yeah, I was just, uh, just thinking you're pushing me a little bit outta my comfort zone, but hopefully in a safe way. 

[00:03:20] Matt Hall: Good. That, yeah, that's what we're here for. We always start, I think with the, with the most uncomfortable or pushy question, which is, um.

I I've always just really curious about people's responses to this, which is, to you, what does it mean to be human? 

[00:03:37] Chris Bromham: Well, look, I think the, the, the time I use that, the most, that that phrase being human in my job is, is when we're dealing with difficult situations with people and, um. When you're being a principal of school, you have to balance lots of competing pressures, of course, you know, from all different angles.

And sometimes the people can get lost in that, you know, and the humanity can get lost in that. And I think, uh, when something very difficult happens when you have a, a member of staff who maybe, you know, has, has done something they should have done, shouldn't have done, or a student or a parent, even, just remembering first and foremost to have a human response.

Uh, you know, I'm thinking if somebody's, somebody comes in and says they, they need to have an operation and it means you need to cover a DP science teacher for six weeks. There's lots of things you're thinking about there. Lots of pressures, competing pressures, but it's important to always, the first response has to be, I'm so sorry to hear that.

I hope you're gonna be okay. And, and I think remembering to be human in the midst of all the pressures, I think that's what it means for me. 

[00:04:40] Matt Hall: I, I'm really interested in, in, in what it is in our system and our structures that, that you observe that sometimes gets in the way of that. 

[00:04:48] Chris Bromham: Well, I think, you know, just in that example, if somebody goes off on, on long-term sec, which of course is one of the huge problems we we're dealing with in, in schools across the world.

It immediately presents you with, with logistical problems, reputational problems, educational problems, all of none of which can be ignored. They've all gotta be sort, solved, you know, communication problems. And I think maybe it's other humans that get in the way of us having that, that human response to one person because.

You're immediately thinking, right, how am I gonna make sure that the students in, in grade 12 are getting a great education while this person's on sick leave? How am I gonna make sure the parents don't panic about that? So maybe it's not getting in the way of humanity, but maybe it's just being human on an individual level as well as a wider level.

[00:05:38] Naomi Wood: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I wonder with all that. Complexity how you remember to be human when you're under pressure. 

[00:05:49] Chris Bromham: Well, the thing is, it's about having good people around you. First and foremost, which most of leadership's about. And, um, making sure that we remind ourselves that the first problem to always deal with is the human problem.

To, to address that and to, to, you know, you're gonna have people, people coming on, going on maternity leave is another one, which of course presents huge problems, but it's a wonderful time for. So it's, it's been surrounded by other people who understand that importance of being human, who remind you and bring you back down to that, that central point of the human reaction, the human response, and, and enjoy celebrating with, with a member of staff that they're gonna become a father or, 

[00:06:29] Naomi Wood: yeah.

And, um, and, and I wonder 'cause we're, we're here to sort of explore the impact of coaching and, and that story and ICS Madrid, we know how committed you are. And I wonder if we went back to the beginning of that story for you and we explore that today. What's the starting point 

[00:06:49] Chris Bromham: for the coaching? 

[00:06:50] Naomi Wood: Yeah, yeah.

For you personally or, or what, wherever you're drawn to, whether it's for you or with the organization. 

[00:06:57] Chris Bromham: Well, I think I, I, I first encountered coaching from a, from a colleague in my previous school who had, uh, was a qualified coach and was a wonderful member, member, staff member of the team. And she raved about how positive it had been for her and how it had influenced her practice, her leadership style, and the way she goes about business.

So I was always, uh, interested in that. And then of course, when I joined, uh, ICS being part of the Nor Anglia group, they, they partnered up with, with you guys at MSB and there was an opportunity for us to get involved there. And I sort of jumped at that 'cause I thought it would be a really good opportunity to, to try something different in the school and to, to try and have an impact.

Individually for me, but across the school as well. So I think I was drawn to it on both levels, both as a, as an institution, but as, as, as an individual. I always thought I, it would be something I would enjoy, thought it was something where you can help people, which, uh, is always a nice thing to do. So it seemed to work for us on all levels.

And of course, allies, you know, other people in the school also felt the same way about coaching. Uh, and were really excited about the opportunity of, of exploring that. 

[00:08:06] Matt Hall: Kind of continue the story then, Chris, what, what, what happened next? You know, because there's, there's lots of things that come across the desk of a, of a principal or a PDD in a school that says that you might be a bit of a magbee to and say, that's interesting.

I like that. But yeah, you, you have to say no to lots of things as well. 

[00:08:23] Chris Bromham: Yeah, absolutely. And, and while I say there was allies in the school, there were also naysayers as well and people who thought we were crazy to be pursuing this. So, um, it's a bit of faith and I think a word that comes up all the time when I talk about coaching and our journey is faith.

Faith in the process, faith in the system that we never had some big grand plan and we still haven't. We, we've got faith and we've got a belief that this can make a difference. Um, and I think by looking at it in that way, we were able to say, let, let's, let's start, let, let's do something. Let's see what the impact is, and let's see where we go from there.

So, you know, we started about three years ago putting a group of people, group of staff onto the prologue program with yourselves at MSB. That was actually really mixed, if I'm honest, because we made the mistake of saying everybody on the senior team had to, had to join the program. Some people who were converts from the beginning, uh, you know, they, they loved it and, and got a lot out of it.

Some people were converted during the two days and some people, uh, yeah, really were won over. Um, so I think the next time we did it, we've put another two lots of, of cohorts through. Prologue and we've asked for volunteers, and that's worked so much better. And, and that coalition, the willing has really been a driving force in, in how we've continued to go forward.

We've gone from there and some of us have gone on to do the, to do story, to do the second part of the MSB program. Uh, and some of us have even gone on to start training as coaches. So it's been a really purposeful and enjoyable journey. 

[00:10:02] Naomi Wood: Yeah. So we, we have a, um, a principle at MSB. What you pay attention to grows.

And I think we're learning that and our partners learn that, that when you begin, like who are the, the allies, the people who are going to sort of seed this for you. So that's really interesting that you've sort learned that. 

[00:10:22] Chris Bromham: And, and that's grown of course. So in our, on our first sort of open cohort, uh, we, we had quite a bit of interest, but the feedback that they gave to the rest of the staff meant that when we put our second cohort through the interest was, was much more significant.

And, and we're looking at putting a, another cohort through and the next term, and again, we're, we're now turning people away, which is fantastic. 

[00:10:43] Matt Hall: I want to come back to that, that word you used just then, Chris, around, um, faith. 'cause that's. My interpretation. There's lots of interpretations of that. That's probably another podcast.

But, you know, belief or commitment to something seen or unseen probably is how I think of it. That's not a word you hear very often in in schools. You may. Catholic schools perhaps. Um, but it's not, it's, you know, we are gonna do this 'cause we've gotta have faith in it. That feels like a courageous step as opposed to we've gotta do this because the evidence points this way.

Or we did a survey, or it's in our school development plan and this is our KPI. How, how did, how, how have you positioned that and kind of. Held that narrative with, with staff? 

[00:11:25] Chris Bromham: Yeah. Well, well, I think it's interesting. Of course there's always conditions and, and situations that lead to that. So we're very lucky being part of the Nord Anglia group, that they, they have a commitment, they have a faith in coaching as well, and they've supported us, uh, at every step of the way.

So it was less of a, of a, of a big jump than it could have been in, in another situation. But, um, I'm minded of the. Some work we looked at with, um, project Zero People are Project Zero and talking about different types of, of situation that you have, where you can have a sort of a simple situation, a complicated situation, a complex situation, and a chaotic situation.

I think it's called the Fin, fin framework, which is quite interesting. And they'd say about, in a complex environment, which cultural change is you looking to change the culture in a school, it it, you can't have a simple plan. You can't even have a complicated plan. It's a complex situation. Mm-hmm. And it says that this, you have to then often abandon this idea of a big grand plan that you're gonna roll out.

And you, you know, you have expectations of what's gonna happen and how you're gonna react to that and have this far more organic plan where you're sort of. Crawl forward bit by bit, and you try something and you reevaluate. You try someone else and reevaluate it. So I think when, when I say faith, it's, it's within that context of knowing that, you know, this is the, the second school that I've led.

And cultural change is hard. Cultural change is hard. It's the hardest thing. You can change processes, you can change systems, you can change people, uh, very easily, but changing the culture and changing the way people. Go about their day-to-day business is, is really tough and it's a complex situation. And, and I think that that organic strategy of just creeping forward and, and reassessing and creeping forward and reassessing is the only way forward.

It's the only way forward. 

[00:13:16] Matt Hall: I'm hearing be like water. Um, another of our principles Absolutely. Ooz through that. And, and, and you're right, we've had really good conversations with Jerry Singer at Nor Angular about, you know, that kind of linear way of planning, and I think he's done a whole PhD on it and that, that, you know, life is emergent.

And again, well, well researched that, that we have to allow things to emerge and grow organically and yet. Just to me, my observation is that is not, that is still not typical of lots of school cultures and corporate cultures that, you know, we like a Gantt chart and we like it planned out, and yet we like a development plan.

[00:13:53] Chris Bromham: Yeah. 

[00:13:53] Matt Hall: And yet we know, as you've just said, like life doesn't happen, life's not aligned. It won't, we won't follow the gat chart, but we need a gat chart. 

[00:14:01] Chris Bromham: And sometimes that works, you know, the, in some, uh, in some contexts and some things you're trying to achieve that works really, really well. In my last school when, when I was in Dubai, we, I think we had a, we had a great team then we really moved the school forward leaps and bounds.

But as I was leaving and sort of reflecting after five years, you think, well, we, we, we've shifted the processes, use it, you know, we've shifted the systems using the sort of Gantt chart approach. Had we changed the underlying culture. Maybe a little bit, but certainly not as much as we wanted to. And I think that's why when I, when I came to to ICS in Spain, I knew we needed a, a different approach.

[00:14:39] Naomi Wood: And as you've, you're sort of three years into this experiment and faith with complexity. What are the kind of signposts then, you say you kind of reassess, you look around. What are you witnessing that is showing you that progress? 

[00:14:57] Chris Bromham: Well, I think there's some sort of, um, hard fact, you know, as I said, when we've put out the calls for, for people, we, we've put a cohort on story now, so we've got about eight people I think doing story and we're doing another cohort of prologue and there's a huge amount of enthusiasm there from the staff.

Mm-hmm. So there's, you know, that's something solid that you can, you can hang your hat on. But also, you know, obviously we've just come back, you know, we we're speaking in, in week one essentially of, of term. There's definitely a change in the atmosphere of the school now. Now that's a lot harder to put your, to put your finger on, to hang your hat on, but I can think of individual members of staff who've been on quite a journey with us who were skeptical at first and, and were one over, and now you just see the way they're going about the problem, the inevitable problems you get at the start of term.

It's the way people are going about them and the way they're reacting and they're not. We see less of those sort of emotional reactions and, you know, the sort of victim reactions, everything's terrible and that everybody else has made a problem, made a mistake that it's, it's far more stopping, taking a breath, being more measured.

Looking for solutions, being, being curious, not judgemental. And we can see this in individual staff, just just this, in this last two weeks. And that's what reignites that faith that I talk about, you know, and myself and my, my other colleagues are saying, look, you can feel this. You can feel it. It's not to say there's not still problems and there's not still other staff who are, who are less than happy, but it's definitely made a difference.

[00:16:31] Naomi Wood: Mm-hmm. There's something in how people respond. So things happen and then we have choices and something about a coaching mindset. Yeah. Kind of expands our choices or, yeah. And yeah, that's what I'm hearing is that, and you're seeing it around you. 

[00:16:52] Chris Bromham: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is, it comes to one of the.

The, the misconceptions about coaching, and certainly I think the, the programs from MSB is that you're going to coaching coach, then you're gonna be coaching everyone in every conversation you have. And, and I can assure you that that's not happening for me or, or, or vastly across the school. Of course, there are some conversations that are more coached like, but it's as much as being coached, like in terms of, in terms of those things, in, in terms of slowing down.

In terms of taking a breath, in terms of keeping yourself above the line as we talk about, into that positive, playful area, rather than below the line where you let everything get on top of you. So, yeah, it's, it's been, I, I don't, I don't think I've found the right words. Yeah. I know you guys use the words coach-like, and I can, that makes some sense, but I, it's, it's a, it's a way of being.

I think the, the real impact has been on the school. 

[00:17:47] Naomi Wood: Mm. 

[00:17:48] Chris Bromham: Yeah. 

[00:17:49] Matt Hall: I'm, I'm curious, Chris, as to, you know, we're talking about this kind of organic and emergent way in which the culture's changing, kind of in response to some coach education and maybe, you know, I always think it's, it works both ways. Have, have you had to put any kind of more formal structures in place at all, um, in order to kind of create the container for it to work?

[00:18:12] Chris Bromham: Yeah. So we were, we were fortunate in that we, we, we carve out, we have a, a lovely situation here where we get every Tuesday afternoon we get a collaborative planning time as a, as an IB school. So within that, there's obviously, you know, that's two hours of, of very sought after and in demand time. Mm-hmm.

Um, but we had in place there are, are professional learning pathways, which, which occur, uh, numerous times throughout the year on a rolling program. So one of those pathways is, is the coaching and. Not everybody, but the majority of people who've been through the prologue, uh, then sign up to that. So, so we meet once every four to six weeks, I think, and look back over different things that we've, uh, that we've experienced, that we had reflections back on, on the prologue coaching, of course, the people who've been doing story, been bringing some of those elements, uh, to the piece as well and talking about different things.

But also we've been looking at, um, opportunities. And what we can do with these skills, because the list I should send you, the list that the staff came up with, it was quite extraordinary of all the different places where this BM O coach-like could have an impact. So for example, we talk about staff setting targets, professional development targets, maybe quite obvious, but also places like conversations we have with students when they're in detention conversations of course that we have with parents in difficult situations.

And they came out. When you, when you look to the list, you know, you talk about that faith. That's where again, reignites your faith and builds your faith. Think, wow, if we can do half of these things, then all, all, everything, all the investment of time and everything will have been worth it. Yeah. It 

[00:19:52] Matt Hall: reminds that, that phrase about, you know, culture is what happens when you're not watching.

Yeah. Um, yeah. 

[00:19:59] Naomi Wood: And that underscores your commitment, that this is important enough that you will convene and reflect and, and look for opportunities. And it sounds like you're also offering those leadership opportunities for people to run with coaching. Are you seeing that? 

[00:20:15] Chris Bromham: Yeah. As I say, it's. People are starting out.

People are, people are starting out. They're experimenting, they're trying to be, I think one of the, the challenges is keeping keeping it in the front of your mind. So when those opportunities arise to, you know, to constantly remind yourself to be more curious, less judgmental, which, which is not only an MSB thing, it's also a Ted lasso thing, which I think makes, is clear.

It's the right way to go if Ted Lasso says that. So, um, so keeping that to mind. At all times. And, and you know, when you're having those conversations. 

[00:20:48] Naomi Wood: And something that I wonder about, which is perhaps the less cozy side of coaching is when it, things aren't going well. And a coach-like mindset and trust enables us to be, make direct observations and offer feedback that perhaps we don't have before coaching.

And I, I wonder where that. Where that lies for you and your culture? 

[00:21:14] Chris Bromham: Well, I think there's been examples of that with, particularly with, with students and, you know, those difficult conversations with students where they've done something wrong and maybe they admitting it, maybe they're not quite ready to admit it yet, and, and being.

Aware and mindful of what's going on with them. And, and just that, that idea of coaching, of just sitting back, saying less instead of dominating that conversation, noticing their gestures, noticing their emotion, and reflecting that it's something that we found is very powerful. And, um, you know, the, the simple question, there seems to be a lot of emotion here or you seem quite upset, can really unlock.

Uh, quite a stubborn child who's, who's having a difficult time convinced themselves they did nothing wrong. We all know they did, but, um, recognizing that emotion and bringing that out has been something that's, uh, it's been really useful. 

[00:22:14] Matt Hall: I'm curious to know what your unlearning in this process, Chris.

[00:22:19] Chris Bromham: The biggest unlearning for me is, is. It goes back to the, the reasons why I, I wanted to, I was interested in coaching from the beginning is that I, you know, I thought after a number of years of being a school leader and matching all this experience, I'd be able to get into coaching and share this experience with everybody and they'll be able to learn from my mistakes.

And of course, the more you, you learn about coaching, you learn that it's not about that. It's not about solving people's problems for them, it's about. Be in that mirror, be in that conduit for them to explore their thoughts, explore their emotions, come to their own conclusions, and that that's been a real journey for me in my own experience as a coach.

And it's hard. It's hard because that advice monster is there all the time, and it's very easy for. For someone who's been leading schools for many years to to, to join the dots and say, right, well, if, oh, I could, I know what problem they've got. And if they do this and they do that and they do the other, it'll be much better.

But I've found that when, when you, when you do that, the more you do that, the less effective it is, you know? And the people I've been coaching. Wonderful people. I can coach you. You know, afterwards when you've led them somewhere and you can see in their eyes that it hasn't had the impact. And then when we've all gone back to the same conversation or similar conversation again.

And as a coach, I've sat back even more. You can see that the impact is so much greater. And I get this, that's been a big unlearning for me. This, it is still helping people, but this idea that I'd be able to share all my experiences is, uh, a rude awakening. Yeah. 

[00:23:56] Matt Hall: So often the biggest thing that Yeah, that, that leaning back and stopping.

'cause you are, yeah, by default you're a solution focused. That's what you're there for. 

[00:24:06] Chris Bromham: Absolutely. 

[00:24:07] Matt Hall: Yeah. 

[00:24:08] Chris Bromham: Yeah. And I, and I think the other, the other thing has been about when to use it. I call as a, as a principle, when people are coming to you with, with questions and, and issues all the time. There's times where people just need a straight answer and, um, you know, you're trying to sit back and help the get there themselves.

It's just not the appropriate time. And I think knowing when and when not to, uh, I think is, is really important. Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:34] Naomi Wood: Mm-hmm. I think. Almost circling back to that question, what it means to be human. There's something about the process of becoming a coach that is related to that. Just in what you're saying about a kind of letting go of the stories we have, like, I have to fix this.

I, I have to be the expert. I have to show my value now. I wonder what you see there in, in that connection. 

[00:25:07] Chris Bromham: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I'd go, I'd go further than that to say it's, it's about how you control your emotions as a leader as well. Um, and that ability to. Saboteur voices has, has been a huge learning for me.

Um, uh, you know, the, the sort of imposter syndrome, which is I think is always there for all leaders, but again, the belief that you can control your emotions better and using some of these techniques, and that's sometimes hard because, you know, be it, it is a high pressure job. Uh, sometimes there's a lot of demands and there's a lot of problems, and you, you've gotta try and solve them all, but, and it can get, it can get difficult.

Um, but knowing that. You are in control. And I think that's what the, the coaching reminds you again and again and again, that we're in control about how we feel about these things and how we think about these things and the narratives that we tell ourselves. And it's very easy to, to become the victim. I, I, I'm sure every school principal, head teacher in the world would, would agree with that because the pressures are great, but there's another way of thinking about it.

There's another way of doing that. You don't have to let it all get on top of you all the time. You can, you can sit back, I've said sit back many times today, but sit back, take a breath, relax. Be positive, be playful. Think about the opportunities in the problems. And these are all techniques that have have come from coaching, I find really useful.

[00:26:35] Naomi Wood: And another phrase that, that we don't hear school leaders use very much is playfulness. What does that look like? 

[00:26:41] Chris Bromham: Yeah. Well, I, I think for me it, it's just about, obviously everything's very serious and these problems that you're faced with are very serious, but you have to be able to still wonder what if You have to still be able to think, well, is there an opportunity here in the midst of this problem?

You, you have to. Imaginative and it's hard to be imaginative when you're feeling like a victim and everything's on top of you. It, it's, it's far easier to be imaginative when, when you are feeling light and not weighed down by everything. 

[00:27:16] Matt Hall: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We're always, always under pressure in, in education, I think, to measure impact.

Um, and we, you know, we definitely find that at MSB, you know, what, what is the impact of, of coaching and, and, and it can be measured to an extent. There's lots of things. You can't measure in relation to coaching, but one of the ones I'm always most curious about is students. Um, as you know, we don't, we don't work directly with students and we don't teach a, this is how you coach students program.

Although, as you've said, people take it and use it in the way that's right for them. What's your reflection or observations of that at ICS in terms of student impact? 

[00:27:58] Chris Bromham: Yeah. Well, I think, you know. Happy teachers lead to happy students and calm, relaxed reflectful teachers. I lead to calm, relaxed, reflective students.

I think they, um, we, we have a wonderful staff here at ICS. We, we we're really lucky and, and our staff relationships with the students that are, they're really quite special. And I think that the coaching has just built on that, that, um, we see the students. Um, they've always been very happy to approach teachers, but I think that's improved.

I think the conversations that students are having with their teachers, um, their willingness and opportunity to open up, because of course that's, that's key with students is getting them to talk, getting them to explore. Um, we've seen that, uh, as improved. Um, and we certainly believe that that's. That's just the start of a much bigger development.

And I think, you know, it's, it's, it's a great question, Matt, because everything we do in schools always has to be judged by that, by the impact on the students. You know, we can put in all these hours and hours of teacher training. If it's not having an impact on the kids, then you know, it's more difficult to justify.

But, but we, we solidly believe that, we firmly believe that this is having an impact on the students. Uh, and of course at a time where student wellbeing is what everybody is talking about and everyone's concerned about. Um, and it's a real focus for us at ICS, and this is just a part of our sort of bigger strategy for wellbeing of students.

[00:29:34] Naomi Wood: And a phrase that. We use is, um, people are longing to be perceived, not transformed. And it, it, it sounds like you're all as a sense of connection and seeing each other students, teachers, that's, yeah. I think always needs to be there if there's gonna be any transformational learning afterwards. 

[00:29:53] Chris Bromham: Yeah. And, and I think, I would say it's growing.

It's, you know, as I say, we're lucky at ICS. Those relationships have always been strong. But it's impossible for it to be perfect. You can never reach every student every time you need to. But what these, this experience is doing and our investment in coaching is doing, is we're reaching, we're getting them more.

More of the time, we're getting to more of those students, getting to those harder to reach students, and we're getting to them more often. 

[00:30:18] Naomi Wood: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:20] Chris Bromham: Yeah. That's a great thing to drive us on. 

[00:30:23] Matt Hall: What do you see evolving and emerging for you next? 

[00:30:28] Chris Bromham: I think, you know, going back to, to using my word faith. I think that's, that's the beauty of it.

That's the wonder of it. Who, who knows where it will go. I suppose that, uh, we have belief that this will, will continue. Um, we're still, we're certainly looking to, to continue the relationship we have with you guys and to keep putting. Staff through these programs we're, we're a really interesting point now where we have a full cohort doing story.

'cause in the past that had only been a couple of staff. So we're really eagerly uh, waiting to see the impact that's going to have. And then it's, it's building from there, I think. Is there a, a, a destination? I don't know. I suppose the, the destination as I said, is there. We, we reach all the people all the time and help all the people all the time.

And that's never gonna, we're never gonna get to that destination. But that's where we're sort of crawling towards bit by bit. And I think that the coaching, the, the coach-like behavior, the coaching techniques that we've been learning are definitely taken us in the right direction with that. 

[00:31:36] Naomi Wood: The, the skill we have in all of our programs, which is, which is appreciation and, um, you know, leaders create the culture they behave and I just.

I really want to appreciate your willingness to change and unlearn, which is a vulnerable thing to do. Leadership, but that's, that's everything if you want to seek change in others, so, 

[00:32:02] Chris Bromham: well, and that's what's exciting is, you know, a bit of the unknown and a bit of trying something, something different, something new.

There's, there's no such thing as a perfect school. There's no way of leading a school perfectly. Just doesn't exist. It, it's too complex for that. So, but trying new things. Always striving to be better, be better tomorrow than you are today. Um, and that's, that's what it's all about. Certainly what gets me outta bed.

And

[00:32:30] Matt Hall: I've really enjoyed our conversation. Chris, thanks so much for, for joining us today. Me 

[00:32:34] Naomi Wood: too. 

[00:32:34] Matt Hall: Yeah. 

[00:32:35] Naomi Wood: Thank you guys. Thank you to be continued. 

[00:32:37] Matt Hall: For sure. 

[00:32:38] Chris Bromham: Thank you. 

[00:32:41] Naomi Wood: So a rich conversation with Chris, not only about his leadership and his coaching, but about this kind of ripple effect that he's witnessing across ICS Madrid.

[00:32:52] Matt Hall: Yeah, I found it really permission giving actually, and gave me faith, um, that confidence that they've got as an organization to allow emergence and organic growth. And I feel like I beat this drum maybe too loudly, but I do feel like that's counter-cultural. To how the majority of organizations, school or otherwise are schooled in how to operate.

And I include MSB in that. Like I, we get hijacked by that of we think it's gonna be a line and we think we're gonna be here by this time. And then something else comes along and like, that's not in the plan, but that feels where the energy is. And that can feel high stakes in a school when you've got kids' futures in your hands.

But I kind of really. Yeah. All credit to them for saying we're going to put some faith in something and allow it to emerge and not be obsessed with measuring the impact or being able to identify the outcomes at the beginning and measure them as we go along and then judge ourselves against those outcomes.

I mean, like, yeah, hallelujah. I felt, um, energized by that, that that's happening. 

[00:33:55] Naomi Wood: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:55] Matt Hall: Felt like it gave me permission, actually. 

[00:33:58] Naomi Wood: Yeah. There were a few, there are few phrases in there like. It's not about the destination, you know, we have to slow down. I have to breathe, I have to step back. That is the opposite of, you know, we've all worked in schools, so we know the urgency, we know the, the KPIs we've got to reach and, and I know they're in there, but we also need to remember what makes humans flourish.

And it is those things that, that, um, Chris is talking about. 

[00:34:25] Matt Hall: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And, and a real. A really healthy reminder that you need some containers and structures, and of course you need buy-in, but if you want to use coaching to develop your culture in a school, it's not a box ticking exercise.

It's not an off the shelf series of documents you need to work through. It's not an accreditation process. It's people, people, people, people, people. And that's how they've done it. They've said like, we're gonna have cohorts that work through and then we're gonna let them sense, make from their experience of learning how to coach and then let them in our context, work out and be the cultural change rather than we're going to use coaching to improve lessons.

We're gonna use coaching to improve pastoral, it just doesn't work like that. Um. And, and I, I think as humans, we like simplicity. And I, I definitely get seduced in the work that we did to thinking, oh, like, let's get really clear about the things that's gonna change right from the beginning. And that's really tempting.

It's just not real. 

[00:35:26] Naomi Wood: Mm mm And, and maybe it's a bit of both, but I'm, my hopes are that people who want to bring coaching into their schools or they're on their way already, they'll listen to this and. You know, gather in that faith and you know, if you want to have a conversation with Chris or us about that, then we love to talk.

So, thanks Matt again for another great conversation. 

[00:35:52] Matt Hall: Pleasure. See you for the next one.

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