39: A Better Way to Treat Cancer | Dr. Michael Karlfeldt, ND, PhD

As many of you know, integrative oncology is a passion of mine. That’s why I’m always looking to bring on some of the brightest in the space, to get their take on different complementary therapies when it comes to healing cancer. Join me in today’s episode as I speak with Dr. Michael Karlfeldt, a naturopathic doctor and PhD who has been in clinical practice since 1987 and runs a busy Integrative medicine center, The Karlfeldt Center, in Boise, Idaho. Dr. Karlfeldt believes in the innate intelligence and healing power of the body, and his passion to promote Natural Health publicly has lead him to be a sought after lecturer, writer, and educator. We covered so much in this conversation – from new and innovative complementary cancer therapies to nutrition to the power of mindset. I hope the information in this episode encourages you, especially if you or a loved one is facing a cancer diagnosis. 

Suggested Resources:

• The Karlfeldt Center
• Instagram
• A Better Way to Treat Cancer
• Photodynamic Therapy for Cancer
• High Dose IV Vitamin C 

This episode is proudly sponsored by Spry Gum, my go-to gum for fresh breath and supporting a healthy smile. Spry is sugar-free and sweetened with xylitol, which makes it a simple, tooth-friendly addition to my daily oral-care routine.

This episode is proudly sponsored by: Sizzlefish

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Transcript

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 Dr. Karlfeldt: Good morning. How are you doing?

Jacqueline: I'm doing well. How are you?

Dr. Karlfeldt: I'm doing good. Thanks for hanging with me this morning.

Jacqueline: Absolutely. And it's early morning for you, right? 

Dr. Karlfeldt: Well, it's eight o'clock. It's not too bad.

Jacqueline: Okay. What, what's your general routine in the morning? Do you do podcasts earlier or later in the day? 

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah. So yeah usually it's podcasts like early, late. Um, yeah. When I don't see patients.

Jacqueline: Yeah. Makes sense. I try to get most of my conversations done before 11 a. m. because I find that beyond then it's just challenging to maintain focus, but certainly I accommodate where I can. But for the most part, I'm a, I'm an early morning person. Well, first of all, I'm so excited to connect with you. I've heard your name many a time. I'm a big fan of your work and a little bit about me. Hopefully you've had a chance to check out my platform, but I started well and strong about three years ago now, and it really started because my mom was diagnosed with cancer back in 2018.

And it essentially just became a platform for [00:01:00] me to share the research I was doing for her I started working with more integrative doctors. contributing content, and then felt called to start this podcast. So I started this podcast, Dr. Karlfeldt, last May, so it'll be coming up on a year. I have about 36 episodes.

I've really been enjoying it. It's been so fun to meet. People I admire in the space like yourself, so truly honored to, to have you here and I'm excited for our conversation.

Dr. Karlfeldt: Absolutely pleasure. And I'm, I'm, I'm honored to be here. It's always a journey. It's that continual journey that you have to have to work with, you know.

Jacqueline: Yeah, it's been a journey for sure. But again, God brings good out of, out of everything. And she's, again, she's the reason why I started this platform and why I'm doing what I'm doing. So.

Dr. Karlfeldt: Well, thank you for spreading information. We all need to kind of band together and spread good information out there.

Jacqueline: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you have quite the background, and I always love to start by just asking my interviewees if you could [00:02:00] share a bit more about your background and your journey that led you into integrative medicine, because certainly everyone in this space always has a story, right? And I'd love to hear yours.

Dr. Karlfeldt: Well, I mean I've been in clinical, you know, clinical practice since ’87, so it's been it's been quite a while. I grew up in Sweden and I originally I originally started to become an engineer and, it was a gentleman that I met when I was like 10 years old at a bed and breakfast in Switzerland.

And he later on became like a father figure to me. And he was a leading naturopathic doctor in Sweden. So while I was doing my. My studying, to become an engineer, he, he, he said, why don't you check out, you know, what, what I do, you know, working with, with people and, and, you know, supporting them [00:03:00] through natural means.

And then I, and I really fell in love with it and I, I saw the impact that he had on his, you know, on his patients. And, I was thinking that I wanted to become like a particle physicist and go to Stanford and study there. But then I was thinking that, well, the human body is a pretty complex piece of machinery.

And so if I wanted to solve something complex, you know, I would say the human body would, would be it and sitting in a lab. Counting, you know, particles, electrons, you know, I kind of figured that that'd probably be pretty lonely and boring after a while, you know, um, so I went into naturopathy in regards to, I mean, so I've, I've seen pretty much anything and everything, you know, hundreds of thousands of patients and interactions, so, but I fell in love with cancer, um, Not because it [00:04:00] started.

Yeah. So there's a number of reasons it started with that. You know, having patients that came, battling cancer and just seeing how little support that they had and how, how few options that are available. And yeah, this, this was like in the nineties, you know, so this was, you know, chemo and all of that was still in its infancy.

It was still pretty crude. I mean, it's not that it's not crude now, but they kind of dialed in dosages a little bit better than they did then. So I was you know, people are suffering and they were not given options. And, and that, you know, put me down that path of, of really trying to figure out what, what do we need to do?

You know, how can I help these people? And, um, and I had some, some really amazing success, successes even early on with pancreatic cancer that was almost carried in. And then, you know, within a week he was up on the roof, you know, fixing the roof, you know, so it's, so I've had [00:05:00] another one with pancreatic and liver, um, and, and he, you know, the cancer went away and, and, you know, he lived, he was doing great. So had number of these successes and realized that there's more that can be done. , adding layer to that, then my, my father, and I wasn't very close to my father, you know, so I actually didn't know that he was battling cancer when he was, nobody had reached out to me and we weren't communicating much.

He was a strong German and, and, um, I found out six months after he had passed that he passed from colon cancer and, and he just went the regular standard of care route, you know, just melting away. You know, just becoming bones and, and nothing, you know, while getting chemo and surgery and all, all the normal things, you know, like, like the death ritual in a [00:06:00] way.

And so these are the reasons that I really, you know, cancer has really become a passion of mine. That's why I wrote my book. That's why I have podcasts like yourself. Um, that's why, you know, summits, you know, you name it, but it's one of the areas that I really, really like to focus on and, and so, you know, develop pretty intensive programs and for patients to 

Jacqueline: Yeah, we certainly share the same passion and I'm sure a big part of it is that, I mean, you yourself seeing patients every day, the fact that you can take patients with advanced cancers, right, and be able to essentially revive them and bring them back to a state of remission is incredible because that's something that, again, like stage four cancer patients today don't hear from conventional oncologists, right, that, there is no hope,

you have this diagnosis, when again, it is possible for you to go into remission, even at that late of a stage, [00:07:00] it's, just a matter of, again, which therapies you opt to pursue your mindset, everything that's mentioned in your incredible book that I was reading last night. 

Whenever I speak with naturopathic doctors, such as yourself, I'm always interested to

hear your thoughts on a broad array of topics. So we're going to be jumping around a bit. I 

hope that's all right with you.

Dr. Karlfeldt: Take me where you want to go. 

Jacqueline: Wonderful. Well, I know you leverage autonomic response testing when initially meeting with patients. Can you explain a bit more about what that, is and why you find it helpful? 

Dr. Karlfeldt: Well, so there's only so much you can find in the blood and, what's fascinating. So it's the blood is kind of, it's trying to figure out what's going on in the houses by looking at what's happening on the street, you know, and, and so it's not a, a full true picture. 

[00:08:00] So if you then instead, start to kind of connect or tap into the wiring, the kind of electrical wiring between all the houses and all the communication that's taking place, you know, all of a sudden you start to understand, you know, what, you know, what's really going on in the tissue.

And Autonomic Response Testing or ART is a way then to tap in into our autonomic nervous system to see how it's responding to stressors. And you can introduce any kind of stressor, you know, like a, a fungus or heavy metal or a chemical or, you know, even a vial of cancer tissue and seeing how the nervous system responds to that.

Also you can apply pressure on nerve endings that relate to the different organs, you know, like whether liver or, , pancreas or, and seeing how they handle that stress with just that applied force where you're, when you're applying that pressure, [00:09:00] you're then, decreasing the circulation to those nerve endings and that puts a stress on them that then signals the stress and to, to the organ in itself.

And you can monitor that simply just by pushing on an arm, seeing if it stays strong or goes weak in response to, you know, these different stressors that you introduce. So that way you can put stress on the electrical communication system in a way and see if it is overburdened with any one of these factors.

And if it is, then you know that that is an issue. And then you can then bring in remedies to see. What can we bring in in order to be able to, you know, support the, that stressor so that it's not overwhelming to the body. So it just becomes a very elegant way to learn so much more about the body than what you can find.

And blood test doesn't mean that blood test is not useful, it is a really powerful tool, but it's not the [00:10:00] only tool. I think it's good to look at the body from several vantage points at the 

Jacqueline: Yeah, that's so interesting. How does that differ? Or perhaps maybe it doesn't differ too much from muscle testing. 

Dr. Karlfeldt: So it is a form of muscle testing and, it is, and there are a lot of different forms out there. The reason I like this, and this, this is a form that was, developed by, or formulated, I should say, by, Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt, he's a leading integrative doctor, and so it just kind of eliminates a lot of caveats that, , you know, cause there's no testing technique that is perfect.

And so, to find one that has the least amount of caveats is, is of great benefit. And from  my personal, you know, experience, I feel that this is the one, obviously there, you know, a lot of other practitioners I will argue against, you know, argue for whatever technique they [00:11:00] use and say, this is why we're using it.

And, and, and I'm not going to argue against them. I just say that this, this is the one that I like, and this is the one that worked for me. 

Jacqueline: Very interesting. Have you heard of acupuncture testing? 

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yes. Yes. So we, I, I used to do that quite a bit actually, where, you know, you can then check and see the different meridians and then you, you see there are certain meridians that you want to, balance and you want to have it balanced from left side, right side. And that's amazing as well to really see what's, what's going on in the body. So there are a lot of cool testing techniques out there where you can, you can really learn about the body. I mean, like we have something that's called AO scan that measures on the frequency and, and the bone. And they, each tissue has a certain frequency and it vibrates at certain level. Yeah, if it is healthy, each pathogen, each chemical, all of these things have different frequencies.

So you, as you kind of measure these frequencies, you know, through the bone, you can really, Test and see, you know, what, you know, how healthy the tissue is, you know, what kind of pathogens are there. So there are a lot of cool devices out there, you know, now that that's amazing to support us understand the body much more.

Jacqueline: Yeah. It's so interesting. And one thing I had heard in one of your podcast conversations that you use the insights from ART testing to essentially help inform the order by which, you know, you treat a patient with different modalities, which I think is really interesting because I've heard from a lot of the functional doctors I've spoken with is that, especially with stage four cancers, you want to attack it at every different point, right? So let's just throw five, six therapies at a time. But when you mentioned, [00:13:00] no, there's actually a proper order based on the individual to do the therapies. That was incredibly insightful and eye opening and interesting to me. So can you touch on that?

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah, so I mean, the body health is like a safe in a way, and you can't just use all codes at the same time and think that the safe is going to open, you know, so you want to first do this code, you know, so this type of therapy, and then do the next therapy, whenever the body is ready, you want to kind of listen to the body to see And what is the priority?

What is it ready for? You know, because even, even something as amazing as vitamin C may not be the appropriate thing for an individual. Or, you know, eating avocados, you know, which is very healthy, may not be the perfect food for a person. Or even though, you know, a person knows that it has parasites. The body may not be ready to deal with, you know, getting rid of the parasites.

You know, maybe we need to open [00:14:00] up the detox pathways. You know, maybe we need to support the endocrine system. Maybe, you know, so all of these maybes are, you know, what we want to allow them, the individual's body to communicate to me so that we have a, a relationship rather than just me doing therapy on to somebody.

But that there's a communication back and forth and that communication that becomes really valuable in order to be able to guide an individual towards health, you know, even if even if they're dealing with stage four cancer, you want to still see. You know, what can the body handle, you know, can we do a lot of oxidative therapies?

So do we need to nourish that body right now or do we need to reduce inflammation? What do we need to do and ART just becomes a really powerful tool in that journey.

Jacqueline: Outside of ART, are there any specific blood panels you look at? So I know like Dr. Nisha Winters looks at what she coined as a trifecta. [00:15:00] There's certainly so many other ones outside of what conventional oncologists test. Are there any favorites of yours that you use on a, on a daily basis?

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah, and I follow Dr. Nasha’s work quite a bit, you know, and she's amazing with the metabolic approach cancer, so I do the same. I also look at, you know, LDH, sed rate, C reactor protein, and then also a lot of the other ones that are really important, like fibrinogen, ferritin, homocysteine level, and you want to obviously make sure that the blood sugar regulation is appropriate.

And then we can check for like VEGF and, you know, a lot of cancer drivers, IGF 1, that are important to look at. And also like TSH, for instance, a lot of people don't realize that, uh, it is a stimulating hormone in itself, you know, to stimulate growth. So you want to keep that one at a fairly low level. So if you're very [00:16:00] hypothyroid, then you want to make sure that you support the thyroid to keep that TSH low.

You know, obviously you don't want to keep it so low so you can't sleep or be anxious or heart racing, but you want to keep it at a lower level. And I, I usually like to keep it at least below two, you know, that that's my, my, if I had my druthers.

Jacqueline: Interesting. All right. I told you we're going to be discussing a broad array of topics. So next on my list, and this is a very nuanced area, so biopsies. I came across an interesting stat that between 20 to 42 percent of breast biopsies actually reveal a breast cancer diagnosis.

So keeping that in mind, let's say a patient has gone through screening and something's been identified, first, is a biopsy ever really necessary? And at what point would you recommend that person go through with one while taking into account the risks associated with that procedure, right?

Like the risk for tumor seeding that we so frequently hear. [00:17:00] 

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah, and, and, and there's a lot of things that I, I, what I want to do is for the patient is to kind of give them the understanding of what, um, what the risks are. Um, so I, and, and I, and I tell patients all the time is that, you know, whether they, they ask, you know, should I do chemo, should I do radiation, should I do biopsy, should I, you know, do surgery and, and I tell them that.

You know, I, I think I know what I would do, you know, if my wife had cancer, if I myself had cancer, but it's amazing how what we think we would do changes when you actually are dealing with the cancer. So I, I can say things, but at the end of the day, it is the individual's choice and exactly what I would do at that moment.

I wouldn't know until I was in that moment. So I, uh, and, and I've. Yeah, so in regards to biopsy, there are [00:18:00] a lot of risks, obviously, one, you know, exactly what you're saying, you, you have cancer is kind of like an encapsulated area where, you know, the body is gathering all the garbage and all the, you know, everything that it doesn't want floating around in the body, you know, so it just kind of have it in a protective area.

And it's not really the tumor in itself that kills people. It's when it metastasizes and goes other places. So, you know, whatever we can do, obviously, to minimize it going to other places is, is we would want to do that. And so, uh, here we're doing then the biopsy, which we are then kind of poking, you know, that protected area.

And, and yes, there are risks, exactly what you're saying, needle seeding. And then also that there's a risk then of spreading because you're kind of opening that, that door, you know, that pathway. So, when is it beneficial then to do biopsy? Well, It is in reality, if you're choosing to do like chemo or choosing to do these [00:19:00] other type of therapies, then it is important.

I mean, for the oncologist, you know, whether you are, you're dealing with breast cancer, you know, it's a triple negative. Is it, uh, you know, hurt to positive? Is it, you know, so that determines a lot in regards to what kind of care that they will offer. From a naturopathic point of view, it's, it's somewhat helpful, but it is, um, it, I mean, to me, it's not worth the risk, you know, if you're not choosing to do the traditional oncology pathway, because you, you still want to go the same, same direction.

You want to look at what are the root causes and you want to address that. And you, you do want to then see what, um, Yeah, you, you, you want to use in different therapies that boost immune system, that support the metabolic pathways that controls inflammation. Um, and then with the root causes, I mean, I use ART, but also use [00:20:00] lab testing as, as well, uh, to check them for mold, for heavy metals, chemicals, for.

Um, you know, you can look at other pathogens and see, you know, what's going on there and then, you know, going down the pathway of, of traumas, you know, belief systems, you know, and, and, uh, looking, see, are there factors there as well that you really want to look at. So those are pathways we would walk down anyway, you know, without the biopsy.

Um, and so, but again, it is the individual's choice.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I'd be very curious and I don't know if there's existing research on this, but women who have very low grade, like stage zero, stage one cancers, breast cancers, right? I'm just curious, those who opt to go through with a biopsy and have it surgically removed versus those who choose to do nothing.

What is the overall survival difference, right? Because we hear of people living, well into their 80s, 90s with active tumors in their body, so it's always [00:21:00] that question, right? If we've identified one small grade tumor, Is it really worth, and surgery too can pose risks of tumor seeding, as we well know, so it's just, you know, in hindsight it's 20 20, but that's a question that I ask myself too with my mom's case, I mean, given as I had mentioned she had stage 2, but if we never even touch that tumor, like, , what state would she be in now?

So has there, has there been any research on that? 

Dr. Karlfeldt: I, um. I'm sure there has been actually, I don't, I don't know of it and I'm actually really curious myself. Um, and I know that, I mean, the challenge is that, you know, when, and, and the question was in regards to this, not, um, breast cancers, but like, uh, PSA measuring PSA and, uh, it's a kind of similar scenario that.

Uh, with the PSA then being elevated, uh, are we responding more aggressively than we need to? And [00:22:00] because of that aggressive intervention, uh, are we then creating more problems than if we would have done nothing and not measured? And uh, it, it seems that that is the case, you know, by not measuring, then we are actually creating less problem.

But then you have that one person that. You know, let's say they did not measure and then lo and behold, he has stage four prostate cancer and then he says, well, I would have wanted to know ahead of time. So, so it is, it is hard, it's hard to know, you know, it's the same, same scenario percentage wise. I'm betting that if we did nothing that we would be in a better place.

Um, but, uh, it, it is always that one individual, let's say that they're. You know, one out of 10 that did not do better, uh, then that is the one that is going to drive that I would have wanted to know.

Jacqueline: Right. [00:23:00] Yeah. Catch 22. And let's say for those who choose to go through with having a biopsy or even surgery, what are some ways, natural ways that we can mitigate the risk for tumor seeding? So I've read a decent amount on modified citrus pectin, which my mom began taking not too long ago, but are there any other things that you could recommend for patients?

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah. So, so the, the key is that, um, you have certain things that patrol, you know, the body to, uh, mitigate that, um, that cancer cells are not able to go where they need to go. You know, so modified citrus pectin is, is a great one. It works kind of like a Velcro on the cancer cells that it's a harder time to attach.

Uh, other things that you do want to do is obviously you want to support your immune system. You know, immune system is a big, big aspect in regards to, you know, what's going on and controlling cancer throughout the body. Uh, you do also want to be on [00:24:00] pancreatic enzymes. You know, that's another one that.

It's circulating to control, that's kind of like the police force and the body. Um, and third thing you want to make sure is that you, uh, support in your inflammation. And, I mean, these are things that I'm bringing up in the book, as you know. But inflammation is a big factor, and so, and inflammation can be caused by stress, you know, how we're thinking, you know, our, uh, and how, what we're eating, what we're exposed to, you know, so we need to consider these factors in regards to controlling stress, because stress in itself is inflammatory.

And then obviously, are we eating a diet that is non inflammatory? You know, so when we are then exposed to, when we're doing surgery or biopsy, You know, then, you know, you want to consider that as well. Um, and then you want to make sure that your detox pathways are open. So when, uh, regular, like the pancreatic cells, immune [00:25:00] cells are killing cancer cells, you know, there's debris and we want to make sure that that debris doesn't get reformed into some cancer later on.

So we want to be able to eliminate that. And then we want to keep the healthy cells as strong as possible so that they are not being converted easily to become cancer cells. And then you look at the mitochondria, you know, how are the tissues hypoxic? Are they getting, are they producing the energy that they need?

Um, so then we want to make sure that that is addressed. So there's all these factors that are really important to consider, you know, anytime that you do like surgery biopsy, because that act in itself is very inflammatory, you know? So anytime you go into the tissue, you do surgery in that tissue, you know, that is going to trigger an inflammatory response.

And if we don't control that. And it becomes too much and that will then fuel cancer activity. Or if we do radiation to that tissue, that's also [00:26:00] very inflammatory as well. So we're, we're causing a, a, a cancer conducive environment by bringing in inflammatory measures, you know, into that tissue. So it is important that you control all of that, you know, through that process.

Jacqueline: Absolutely. And Dr. Karlfeldt, so when I was in college, funny story, people ask, how did you find yourself in the health space? And I gave you a little synopsis when we first started, but I studied finance and economics in college, but I guess my most proud accomplishment was the writing of this thesis that essentially advocated for an integrative approach in our healthcare system.

And I had a whole chapter just dedicated to the topic of inflammation and how it fuels cancer. And just, again, like the complex pathways, things that were way over my head that I just had to research and actually see, you know, the relationship between inflammation and cancer growth. It, it was incredibly fascinating and it just goes to show you that being in a chronic state of inflammation really can [00:27:00] lead to cancer, right?

As you said, be that through emotional stress, lifestyle factors, nutrition. So it's really something that more folks need to pay attention to and when you mentioned mitochondria that sparked a question I had for you. As you know, I do a lot of research for my mom and I came across something called fermented wheat germ and within that study, it said that they had found that fermented wheat germ actually had the ability to revert.

A cancer cells metabolism back to normal and essentially make it a normal healthy cell again. Is there any truth to that? Is that possible?

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah, it was interesting, actually, the summit that I just finished last year, uh, it, uh, one of the, uh, the researchers, you know, Mary Hardy, um, and she, she's also, you know, seeing cancer patients at, you know, cancer, big cancer centers. And there's a huge amount of research exactly what you're saying in regards to the [00:28:00] fermented wheat germ extract and how that interferes with how cancer cells gain energy because we look upon the mitochondria as a I mean, mitochondria is the energy factory of the cell, and obviously cell does not function without energy.

And so, when a cell is under so much stress that it needs to, that it recognizes that it can't survive, Uh, the way it's still functioning, it's then shifting into a survival mode and that has to do with the signaling then from, uh, the mitochondria signaling then to the DNA, you know, to increase actually oncogenes and suppress, uh, oncosuppressor genes.

You know, so this is kind of a hardwired survival mechanism that we consider is cancer. So with that, then the cells shift to producing [00:29:00] energy in a different way, you know, where it's instead of using the mitochondria to produce energy using oxygen, it is then fermenting sugar, which is a anaerobic or without oxygen type of process.

And so fermented wheat germ extract really helps and then blocking, uh, that pathway, how, uh, the cancers and gaining energy, you know, through the fermentation process. And so that puts in the cancer cell that a. Uh, at a very strong disadvantage, obviously, because it is not able to produce the energy that it needs in order to function.

Uh, and then also, it's not able to secrete the byproducts of, uh, that energy production, you know, like lactates. And that's why we measure LDH quite a bit, you know, to see. What's going on in the body, you know, does it [00:30:00] have enough oxygen or is it in that fermentation state? So that and at that LD that lactate is a signaling molecule that actually signals to the environment around that cancer cell to become like itself and also to promote metastasis and the, increase of, creating blood vessels to feed that area.

Yeah, because the, because of this way of producing energy, the cancer cell is very actually inefficient in producing energy, so it needs a whole lot more resources, and that's why it needs so much more blood supply. But it also leaves it vulnerable if you shut down that process, and that is what, you know, substances like fermented wheat germ extract really helps that I use quite frequently in my practice.

Jacqueline: I know I had my mom start on it a while back. It's funny because I feel like she'll start something and [00:31:00] then I'll have her stop it and start something else because I've also been doing a lot more reading on the concept of pulsing, especially when it comes to like a ketogenic diet.

And you don't necessarily want to give the cancer cells a chance to adapt to whatever modality or therapy you're, you're essentially targeting it for. So do you often pulse therapies in your clinic with patients?

Dr. Karlfeldt: And that's where kind of the beauty of like ART, you know, comes in. Where you're then able to then test and see if the body's ready to shift in certain areas and you're absolutely right. Yeah, the cancer is very intelligent, very smart and it is kind of an earlier programming that we look at it, you know, and which means that It was designed to survive, uh, in a very hostile environment, you know, and to be able to function and exist even in that type of [00:32:00] scenario.

So even though we create a very hostile environment. Uh, like chemo, like radiation, or if we go after it with a number of natural agents, uh, to try to block this pathway, that pathway, et cetera. And there, I'm sure there are a gazillion pathways that we have no clue that currently exist. So obviously the best strategy that we can do is to try to starve it and block as many pathways as possible.

And then at the same time. Uh, you know, try to, uh, use some oxidative therapy, uh, and, uh, or use some other way to try to go after it directly. And so, yeah, so it, it, it is, it is important to, uh, be able to be flexible in, uh, the protocol that you're, you're doing, recognizing that. Cancer cells are very smart.

They're not dumb. It's not just like a little, you know, just a tissue tumor tissue there that is just kind of hanging out there. [00:33:00] It is, you know, once it's there, you know, the, the cancer is probably already tried to communicate, try to figure out how to exist elsewhere.

Jacqueline: Yeah. And speaking of multiple pathways, so I had Jane McClellan back on the show a month or so ago. And for listeners, she wrote this book called How to Starve Cancer, essentially curing herself of stage four cancer using a cocktail of drugs. So again, different approaches work for different people. What are your thoughts on using off label drugs for cancer?

Because certainly like they can target different pathways, right, to help kill cancer cells, but also to they have a big effect on the body's terrain, certainly your microbiome health, which is. You know the source of where most of your immune system lies. So what are your thoughts on that approach? Yeah,

Dr. Karlfeldt: and I love, you know, know her very well. I, I think Repurpose Drugs and what she's done, what she's brought out has been tremendous. And she, uh, [00:34:00] it has helped a huge amount of people to you know, move through this journey more efficiently. So, I mean, it, it's amazing what she's brought to the world and, and it, and it is always that balance, you know, again, if I, obviously any drug has an effect.

Any, any drug. I mean, they're, you know, you, if you can't kill a rat with a, with a substance and you can't really, uh, allow it to come out as a drug onto the market. So, uh, so every, every pharmaceutical will have some kind of effect. Uh, what we're seeing though, is that when you're dealing, you know, we're dealing with cancer, you know, then you kind of weigh the pros and the cons.

And a lot of these repurpose drugs have been around for a long time. Their safety profile is, is very, very high, you know, like metformin is a common one that, that we use. And so. The benefits at that [00:35:00] time, then, you know, tend to really outweigh the, the risks, so to say, you know, like people are nervous about, you know, um, statins, you know, that's another one of the repurposed drugs, you know, and, uh, it, it seems like when you bring that in, you're able to control that, So, yeah.

Uh, you, you look upon cancer, especially metastatic, uh, it's almost like a wildfire. So, um, it, it is nice to try to kind of fix the house, so to say, you know, uh, but if it's on fire, you, you, you want to quench a fire, you know, and, and then you can start to repair and rebuild. And so then. Uh, you know, things like the repurposed drugs are really beneficial and shutting down how that fire gains energy so that we can quench it and then we can kind of repair and take care of the adverse reactions if there are any from some of these pharmaceuticals

Jacqueline: Is there a way to [00:36:00] determine which drugs would be beneficial for a specific patient? So my mom has tried metformin She's pulse doxycycline around high dose IVC treatments Um, she's considering doing low dose naltrexone. I've been having, or rather encouraging her to look into fenbendazole. Joe Tippin's protocol, certainly there's a lot around anti-parasitic drugs like ivermectin.

How do we know which one to use?

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah, that that is always one challenge. So 11 way is to look and see what are the common pathways that relates to the it. Type of tumor you're dealing with. Um, and that's kind of a general direction you can go. Um, but knowing that cancers, you know, once you block one pathway, um, and then another one can open up and also then in regards to um, one, one breast cancer or one ovarian cancer may, uh, [00:37:00] present itself different than another breast cancer, another ovarian cancer. So, uh, they all exhibit different type of pathways. So, you know, what, what Jane is really kind of pushed forward is that, you know, it is good then to block multiple pathways at the same time and try to cover as much as you can.

Uh, from the get go rather than to pick that one versus that one. And that's where she developed, you know, her, her Metro map, you know, that, uh, really make sure that you, you block, you know, some of the, you know, like the five main pathways or, uh, sorry, four main pathways that the, uh, cancer gets, uh, energy, you know, one is an.

The fatty acids FAO pathway. You have the glucose, you have the, the glutamine pathway. Um, and so making sure that you, you block these pathways as, as efficiently as possible.

Jacqueline: What are your thoughts on CDK 4/6 inhibitors? Is that something that you use in certain [00:38:00] situations in your practice? 

Dr. Karlfeldt: So I mean, I, I try to use more again for that. I use more of the natural ones, you know, like, uh, like curcumin is a powerful one and so I, I try so. With, you know, talking about the repurposed drugs, you know, there are a lot of repurposed drugs that you can bring in, but also there are a lot of natural agents that block a different lot of pathways as well.

You know, so like the CDK4 6, you know, it's the same thing. Uh, you can then, I, I would move more towards some of the natural like, you know, curcumin, boswellia, ginger, you know, that, that is fantastic and, and, you know, working on that pathway.

Jacqueline: This next question is a bit of a loaded question and I understand certainly you provide a very personalized approach to your patients, but overall, Dr. Karlfeldt, which treatments have you found to be most effective across the board in terms of treating [00:39:00] someone with advanced cancer? Thank you. Mm

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah, it is. It is a loaded question because it's so different from different individuals and, and I, and I wish we have figured out, we solved the riddle of cancer. We truly have not, you know, nobody has, you know, we've gotten, we've gained a huge amount of ground and we've learned a lot. I'll say, you know, in the integrated space, the last 20 years have really yeah.

Exploded, I would say. So the, the therapy, I, I would say if anyone's going to do one thing, I would highly recommend, you know, high dose vitamin C. That would, that would be like the, the first thing that I would do. Um, secondly, you know, if you combine that with like hyperbaric oxygen therapy, uh, and then also obviously diet becomes, uh, becomes huge, you know?

So, You want to, if you're going to do a heroic treatment like the first one you're [00:40:00] choosing, I would say then, you know, vitamin C and then combine that with hyperbaric or, or, you know, oxygen type of therapy, um, for a foundation. And that's important for people to understand is that. You have, I mean, like at my center, you have a huge amount of different what I consider heroic type of therapies, you know, like vitamin C IV, I would say, you know, it's a heroic type of therapy, but the foundation is always the same.

You got to look at what am I eating? Uh, what am I thinking? And how am I moving, you know, so those are the three fundamentals you always get addressed. So, that, if you're going to do a therapy that works, that is the best place to start, and that's usually the least expensive. And then you have the vitamin C, or I use something that I like a lot, that I've seen great results with, it's called photodynamic therapy.

And, and that is then utilizing then a [00:41:00] light to trigger oxidation in the cancer cell. And we potentiate that light absorption into the cancer cells by using photosensitizers that we introduce intravenously. Or we can also, if we have access to the tumors, easy access, like a breast or prostate or, you know, colorectal, and then we can then inject them, um, uh, the photosensitizer in the local area to have an increased absorption then in, in the cancer cells.

So when the cancer cell has that photosensitizer then inside of itself, And it's exposed to light, it will then pull that, that intense energy at such a greater rate to cause some production of the oxidative substances or trigger oxidation of the cancer cell to turn off the, you know, to kill it for apoptosis.

So, so that that's one of the therapies that I like quite a bit as well. And I've seen [00:42:00] tremendous result. And then you have things like, you know, pancreatic, uh, uh, enzymes, you know, that the Kelly protocol or, uh, Dr. Nick Gonzalez that did the Kelly protocol, uh, is a, is also one of those that has had tremendous amount of, uh, uh, success as well.

And, uh, uh, so I would and then there's another combination like poly MVA, DCA. Uh, is, is also another powerful tool that's out there. A lot of people have had great success and vitamin B 17, you know, so, so there, there are a lot of amazing different protocols that's out there, uh, and they've all had, I, I've seen great successes, but again, it's not a, it's not, um, that one protocol is going to fix everybody.

You know, and, and I wish, I wish that was the case. I wish we figured out exactly that, you know, such and such person will do best on this program and then it gets fixed. You know, there, [00:43:00] uh, there is, there is some cool technology that's coming out. Where, you know, with AI, where we are, uh, getting better, you know, like your question in regards to the reverse first drug, or, you know, what are we going to use?

Uh, there are, uh, some, some amazing technology that's coming out that, uh, that I'm looking into. And, and so, yeah, it's, it's advancing tremendously fast and it's because there's a need.

Jacqueline: truly. I recently was reading about I think it's pronounced histotripsy Which is essentially using sound waves to kill cancer cells and I think it was recently FDA approved But my understanding is that it's limited to patients with just like single or localized liver mets But the hope is that it would one day treat cancer all over the body.

So I've been keeping closely attuned to that information, um, but going back to the photodynamic therapy, this was one I was not too knowledgeable about prior to stumbling across your clinic and again the, [00:44:00] the treatments you employ, but I find this super fascinating and I guess my question to you is for patients who can't – would you still recommend red light therapy?

Dr. Karlfeldt: They, they can, and what would be good is them to. Um, you can buy like methylene blue. Yeah. So what, what you want to do is that if you use a certain light form, then it's good then to use a photosensitizer that matches with, with that specific light. And, uh, like methylene blue will then match with red light.

But also things very rich in chlorophyll, you know, will also be a photosensitizer for, for red. So doing that in combination can be a really powerful way, you know, so you can use, you can even just kind of buy these little, uh, light bulbs that you would hatch, you know, chicken eggs with, you know, that can be a powerful [00:45:00] tool and, uh, maybe take methylene blue or, Yeah, a lot of chlorophyll or chlorella or some spirulina or something that has a lot of a lot of the chlorella or chlorophyll in it and do that like half an hour or so prior to and then exposing you to the red light and that can be a very powerful tool

Jacqueline: Interesting. Yeah, I, I got my mom a handheld red light therapy device and I've been encouraging her just to hold it over her liver, but definitely going to consider, introducing the methylene blue cause I have, I have read some interesting things about that. Um, I had another question for you.

Oh, do you use mistletoe often in your protocol? 

Dr. Karlfeldt: we do yeah so we do it both IV at a high dose and then also for sub Q and Um, it's not as effective oral. I know there are some oral products out there, but, you know, sub Q or IV is, is really, really powerful. And a mistletoe is one of those intelligent agents. You know, [00:46:00] it, it modulates immune system.

So. It increases the factors that need to be increased and then suppress the factors that need to suppress. So, um, and, and it's been, it's a really amazing tool and it's fantastic to use if a person chooses chemo because At that time, you know, the immune system, you know, white blood cell count will go down and immune system will not be as effective as it needs to be, which is kind of an irony because that is what you need then obviously to kill off the rest of the cancer cells.

And, uh, when you stop the chemo, then you have no immune system. And we know chemo is not killing all cancer cells. You know, it's just Killing the fast-growing ones. So here you are, you know, leaving all exposed after so, so that's why it's so important to bring in if you choose to do chemo to do it in an integrative fashion, you know, where you then bring in things like mistletoe or, uh, and or vitamin C or ozone or, [00:47:00] uh, any, any of those therapies to then actually support the immune system to kill off what the chemo can't.

And then at the same time, and obviously protect the healthy cells at the same time.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's the best form of natural immunotherapy without all the side effects is how I essentially like to present it and one thing I also did want to touch on. Dr. Karlfeldt is nutrition. There's obviously a way to test patients to see What I guess they should be abiding by in terms of diet.

What are some of those testing methodologies? And again, nuanced question, but overall, what is the best anti-cancer diet that you advocate for in your clinic? Mm

Dr. Karlfeldt: So, yeah, to, to, uh, each individual is obviously, they're, they're different. You know, we're all, we're all unique and our genetic makeup is, is different. And so that's why it's important to test and [00:48:00] see how we process. How do we process meats? How do we process fats? How do we detoxify? How do we, and, and there are, uh, genetic tests that you can use in order to be able to guide an individual to understand what's really going on. And uh, as there's several of those tests out there, I mean, I have, I have my preference, but it doesn't mean that what I like is always the best. It's just, again, you know, what I use and, and, uh, it works for me. Uh, so it is important to test an individual and see, you know, how, how do they deal with food?

Uh, I do like, you know, so there, there are two directions that an individual can go that seems to have a very good effect. Yeah. Yeah. One. Yeah. going then, uh, nutritionally dense or plant based, uh, or, uh, doing more kind of a ketogenic type, you know, so, uh, and, and I have patients go a little bit in, in both directions, depending on what's going on.[00:49:00] 

As a whole, I tend to lean more towards a ketogenic, you know, for a number of reasons, but I have a lot of great friends that would argue, you know, and the opposite, uh, and, and that's, that's the thing there, even among us, you know, that studied this a lot, uh, there's still, you know, we still have our camps that some people are in this camp, you know, plant based only, you Now that people are in the ketogenic camp or, you know, uh, I, I tend to be less extreme as a whole.

Uh, I do like make sure that the person is on a very nutritionally dense type of food. Um, and then if we need to go after the metabolism, which is if we are dealing with aggressive cancer, then, then we do. And then I would lean more towards a ketogenic type, uh, just for that, the reduction of the inflammation and then also the, the glucose pathway is one of [00:50:00] the, the biggest one, but doesn't mean it's the only one, but it is the biggest one.

And, uh, you have a lot of people while you go through their cancer journey. Uh, obviously muscle mass and strength and all of that becomes an issue. Um, and your immune system does require protein in order to be able to, to function appropriately. So, so I, so I tend to lean more towards a ketogenic, but, uh, it needs again, be a clean, healthy ketogenic.

And it is good to measure at that time, you know, while you're doing it. Uh, so that you truly know where your ketones are at and how you're responding with different foods. Uh, because we can all respond in different ways. Uh, like I may respond to an avocado differently than you respond. And so if we have a measuring device like a keto mojo, you know, it's a common one, uh, we will then directly know how foods respond, how we respond to them and then control our ketone level and also our [00:51:00] blood sugar.

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. I had Dr. Winters on the show, again, about a month or so ago, and I think the consensus from my conversation with her was that she's a big advocate of a metabolically flexible diet. And we had this whole conversation again, how plant based does not mean vegetarian by any means.

And how she essentially advocates for using meat as more of a condiment rather than having it consist of, you know, 70 or more percent of your plate. I am curious too, I mean, I'm sure based on the person's type of cancer, diet is obviously going to shift. So my understanding is that for breast cancer, fiber is so critically important in helping the body detox from excess estrogen.

So in your breast cancer patients, I mean, is that something or an area where you, advocate for more cruciferous based vegetables?

Dr. Karlfeldt: I do. Yeah. So you have different substances are really powerful. And so you got to kind [00:52:00] of look at food as your medicine. Like what Dr. William Li has done a lot of research in regards to the anti-cancer diet. Uh, you know, components within each food, and by bringing those in, you are then more able to battle cancer.

And there, there's so many amazing, um, uh, nutraceuticals and phytochemicals that exist in all these different foods. And these, these are medicine. These are, these are powerful tools. And, uh, like you mentioned, the cruciferous in regards to, any kind of hormonal based cancer like, uh, prostate or breast or ovarian or, um, but they, you also see that like in a, uh, colon cancer, there are a lot of, uh, hormone receptors or estrogen receptors along the, uh, the colon cancer.

So. Even if it's not strictly a hormone based, it is still good than to support the removal of unwanted hormones. [00:53:00] And cruciferous are really powerful in that area, like, like you mentioned the different names of them. So to bring them in can be a really important thing to do. Um, sometimes you also have, if you do high excess, then It can then interfere with the thyroid function.

So you want to kind of keep an eye on that as well. And some of them are high in oxalic acid. So you want to keep an eye on that as well. So it is it is that kind of balance in regards to what you're eating. But you can then use food really as tools. You know, like sometimes if you need to support the sulfur pathways and to Bring in more onion and garlic and, uh, but you, you will learn more about that actually when you do your nutrition genome, you know, how you process, you know, sulfur, how you process, you know, these other components to learn more, how, you know, what, what type of diet you should have.

Jacqueline: Yeah. [00:54:00] Everyone's different, and again, that's why I'm such a fan of, of testing to see, you know, what your body needs. Well, Dr. Karlfeldt, this has been such an insightful conversation. As I'm sure you can tell, I can talk to you for hours. I'd love to have you back on again at some point to perhaps discuss a more focused topic, but this was just wonderful for me.

I really enjoyed this conversation. So thank you for your time.

Dr. Karlfeldt: Thank you so much. It's been, it's been wonderful. And, uh, yes, as I mentioned before, I mean, for. Uh, everything we talked about, I mean, that, and that's why I wrote a book, you know, because there's so much information out there and I, I felt it added to what a lot of the great books that are out there. Like you mentioned, Dr. Nasha Winters, Jane McLelland, Dr. Dr. Paula Anderson, Dr. Neil MacKinnon. I mean, there's so many. Great, um, individuals that are sharing, bringing information out there for everyone. And I feel that my, my book kind of fit along with that group. To really bring more understanding of [00:55:00] what's going on, going on,

Jacqueline: Absolutely. And I will definitely include the link to that in the show notes. And also, where can listeners find you?

Dr. Karlfeldt: So they, they can, the best place is just to go to my website, theKarlfeldtcenter.com, or, or give us a call. We’re at 208-388-8902.

Jacqueline: Wonderful. And I did have one last question for you and that is, what does being WellnStrong mean to you?

Dr. Karlfeldt: Yeah, so the most people think about it as a, uh, as a lack of disease, you know, that health is just lack of disease, you know, to me, well and strong is to be well beyond just being asymptomatic, uh, it is having the vitality and the joy, uh, to just experience life to its fullest, uh, and at the same time, then.

Uh, even when you are well, then to [00:56:00] assess, you know, to test and assess, uh, so that you, cause there can be a lot of things that are brewing that you don't understand and you don't know. And so I do, you know, suggest that you frequently check for where are my chemical levels, heavy metals, my pathogen levels, my nutritional level, my hormonal level, you know, where.

Where are they and then optimize them, uh, so that you can continue to be well and strong, uh, without having to worry then about, you know, cancer being in, uh, kind of in the background. And even though you feel, and that's the thing, the majority of cancer patients that come to me, they say, I feel great. I haven't been sick a day in my life.

So you can't use that as a measurement, you know, that you, you got to look elsewhere and, and to me, you know, monitoring and living life to its fullest. That's well and strong.

Jacqueline: I love that. I couldn't agree more. Well, thank you for your time and I'm looking forward to sharing this with listeners and having you back on again as well.[00:57:00] 

Dr. Karlfeldt: It'd be my pleasure. Thank you so much, Jacqueline.