How To Be WellnStrong

52: The Dangers of Restricting Your Diet | Dr. Sarah Ballantyne, PhD

• Jacqueline Genova • Episode 52

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Today I’m joined by Dr. Sarah Ballantyne, the founder of Nutrivore.com and New York Times best-selling author of Nutrivore: The Radical New Science for Getting the Nutrients You Need from the Food You Eat. Dr. Sarah creates educational resources to help people improve their day-to-day diet and lifestyle choices, empowered and informed by the most current evidenced-based scientific research. With Nutrivore, Dr. Sarah has created a positive and inclusive approach to dietary guidance, based in science and devoid of dogma, using nutrient density and sufficiency as its basic principles: Nourishment, not judgment. In our conversation today, Dr. Sarah and I discuss why nutrient deficiency is so common, how to consume the most nutrient-dense foods, the dangers of restrictive diets, and the optimal eating pattern to improve your health.  

What you'll learn from this episode:

  • What “nutrivore” is and why this approach to nutrition is gaining traction
  • The shocking truth about common nutrient deficiencies plaguing modern society
  • Dangers of restrictive diets and why a more inclusive approach to nutrition may be the future of health
  • Actionable strategies to overcome nutrient deficiencies and unlock your body's full potential
  • The most nutrient-dense foods you should incorporate into your diet for optimal health
  • Practical tips on how to create balanced, nutrient-rich meals


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*Unedited Transcript*
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Jacqueline: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show! I feel like we've been following each other for a while on, uh, social media now, so it's so lovely to finally be able to see you and speak with you today.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Yeah, I'm excited.

Jacqueline: I just wrapped up reading your book Nutrivor and as you can see I have pretty much every single page like marked and highlighted because

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: my copy is starting to look like that. So I'm like, I'm starting, I'm starting to get there just because like, if I'm doing, you know, I'm on social media or something, like there's certain pages that I keep wanting to be like, and look at this page. Oh, that is a good page. Um, and so I've started marking the like, So I can find them faster.

Jacqueline: love that. I know especially like all these wonderful charts on like phytonutrients Yeah, I'm a huge marker when it comes to books because I find that I like to revisit Things I read and instead of rereading the entire thing, I just go to my marks, right? But I think there's a healthy balance of how much to mark it up.

Um, but anyway, you Have this [00:01:00] whole concept of a neutral or diet and I mean again, this book is just so comprehensive There's so much great stuff in here So I'm really excited to touch on some of the core maybe key takeaways for our listeners In our conversation today because again, it was packed with just such incredible stuff.

So with that, dr Sarah, I wanted to start off by just diving into one of the biggest questions that folks are asking today, and that is, why is nutrient deficiency so common, even for those of us who are following a healthy diet?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Yeah, I think that, um, we don't learn about nutrients, um, or what foods contain what nutrients, or how much of those nutrients we need. And for most of us, we've never been exposed to a a curriculum or a diet that teaches us that really, really important, like [00:02:00] basic function of food is to nourish us, right?

That is, that's why we call it nourishment, uh, same root as the word nutrient, right? But we don't have that basic understanding of what we're getting in a food other than maybe macros, right? So like, we might understand the calories, we might understand the protein grams or the carb grams, maybe the fiber grams, do you know what I mean?

But most of us don't. don't aren't taught at any point in our life why vitamins are important, why minerals are important, essential amino acids, um, essential fatty acids, phytonutrients. There's all these vitamin like compounds, right? They're things that like aren't, aren't essential. So they don't like come up to the level of getting, getting a vitamin like name or, or letter designation, like, Ooh, very exciting.

If you're [00:03:00] like, you get to be a B vitamin, we don't, we don't. Most of us are never exposed. to that basic information of why that's important. We are taught diet purely in the framework of you eat this way to lose weight. Right. And if you don't eat this way, you're not going to, um, maybe if you have like high cholesterol, your doctor will say, cut out these things, right.

Or if you have high blood pressure, your doctor will say, well, like go on a low sodium diet. But even, even when we're put on like those therapeutic diets, right. The American diabetes association diet, it's. It's still about the things that you avoid, the things that you cut out, or the things that you have to measure that you can only have in like moderate quantities.

And it is never about nourishment. None of those agencies teach us about nourishment. Nutrients. And the result of that, lack of knowledge, right, and that lack of knowledge that our [00:04:00] parents or grandparents had to, like, it's not even that we're not learning it at school, it's like, we don't have that collective knowledge base, other than if you've gone to school to study nutrition.

The result of that is, We don't know how to eat a nutrient dense diet and like layer on top of that the fact that most of the fad diets that are out there like most of the diets that have a name are going to tell you the foods to cut out Um, and a lot of them are going to actually lower your nutrient intake, like because you're cutting out food sources of nutrients, they make it harder to eat a nutrient dense diet intuitively, like the what you're learning from those different like fad weight loss diets goes against the way that we want to eat to actually get all of the nutrients our bodies need from the foods we eat.

So if there's, if the, like, the reason is we don't know the reason is we don't have. That knowledge base. And that is why, when I talk about NutriVore, like I talk about it as a dietary [00:05:00] philosophy, right, NutriVore is the goal of getting all the nutrients our bodies need from the foods we eat. But that's why it's not just that goal, it's why it's actually the knowledge base to help inform our day to day choices so that we can achieve that goal.

Because that knowledge base, at least currently, hopefully I can change that, but at least currently, And that knowledge is not common knowledge. It's not, it's not part of our societal knowledge base that we kind of like all have. Like, like we all kind of know a little bit of math and some grammar, right?

We mostly, I can't tell you how often I'll write a post and I'll say, Oh, and this food has this and this in it. And someone will say, wait, there's a vitamin K. Yeah, there's a vitamin K. Like our, our knowledge of nutrients is so lacking. Like, of course, of course our diets are short on them. We don't understand them on average, right?

It, you, it's, it's really challenging. to eat a [00:06:00] nutrient dense diet if you don't know what nutrients are.

Jacqueline: A hundred percent. Amen to all of that. But one thing too, I love that you highlighted is, yeah, I mean, to that point on restrictive diets, I feel like, again, we're in this, uh, So, um, I think that, um, you know, I think that we're in this era now where it's all about, you know, low carb, high fat, keto, carnivore, all of these things are very restrictive.

And to your point, I mean, they cut out a lot of essential nutrients that we need to survive and thrive. But I think the way these diets are presented from the perspective of a, oh, this will heal your autoimmune disease. Disease or this will make you lose 10 pounds in two weeks. We're always looking for quick fixes.

Right. And I think there is some therapeutic value to some diets like keto and carnivore when used in like a very short term setting. But I think the irony is that, as people start to feel better, they think, Oh, this is the way they should eat for the rest of their lives when that's not necessarily the case.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: A hundred percent, I could not agree with you more. I think there's another challenge with these diets. So, um, this was my path, right? Like, my [00:07:00] path to Nutrivore came through restrictive dieting. This is something that I engaged with, um, and really believed in in the past. Um, and I, This is definitely my experience.

And I think this is like the human nature experience. So, um, you, you learn about this diet, um, and whatever your, whether it was to lose weight or it was for some other like therapeutic value, you go, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to do this diet. And this diet is that I don't eat this or this or this or this or this, right?

This diet is defined based on the things that are restricted. And. For most people, I think following most diets, they're going to notice, even if it's placebo effect, right, you're going to kind of notice like some benefit. Initially, you're gonna be like, Oh, look, I do have more energy. I write like I did lose 10 pounds in two weeks, like whatever it is.

Like most diets work on the short term, like, right, that is that is the fact of it. And so you go, Oh, yeah. I had, I had so much [00:08:00] success when I, when I cut out all of these foods. So when you either hit the limitations of what that diet has to offer you, or you hit that point where like the diet is just not sustainable, you're on again, off again, you are, you know, you are just really struggling to stick with those eating patterns.

Um, or you, you, like your health is starting to be affected By the give and take of that diet, right? So, a lot of diets work short term and a lot of them have, or they all have, some kind of trade off, right, for that. So, you hit that, you hit that level and you go, Oh, okay. Uh, well, since I had all of this success by cutting out these foods, what's the natural next step?

Cut out more, cut out, cut out the next food group, right? Cut out the next, the next thing, because we're attributing that initial success of that diet to what we did not eat, and we are not attributing it to what we ate instead. And the fact of the matter is what you don't eat [00:09:00] has no impact on your health.

It's what you do eat that actually matters, right? And did that diet actually supply you with the nutrients that you need to thrive most of these diets? Can't, right? They, they are fundamentally designed to eliminate all food sources of certain nutrients, these very restrictive ones. So I think that that is like the, the trouble, like restrictive diets go back to the 70s, right?

With like low fat was sort of like the first really restrictive, right? Oh yeah, then we, then we got low carb and then it, that really like laid the groundwork for, okay, well now we're going to cut out. All grains and legumes and dairy, like now we're going to cut out all plant foods, or now we're going to cut out all animal foods, right?

Like, right now, every food is demonized by one

diet or another. If you bought into every diet that's out there, there would actually be nothing left to eat, not even water. Like, we're at a, we're at a point where not even water [00:10:00] would be,

Jacqueline: insane

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: an acceptable thing to consume on on every diet. And, and I think that's the right, that's the trouble we get in.

So it's, it's, it's not just the psychology restrictive diets, like setting us up to fail. It's not just the how that leads to eating disorders. It's not just how those, Very limited diets themselves can't supply us with the nutrition we need or the joy that we need from food. It's the fact that it opens up this door for this way of thinking about food in that makes us follow this path of like more and more and more restriction, which is equals more and more and more disordered eating.

And I followed it. Like I understand I followed it with a PhD in medical biophysics. Like we are all susceptible. To this way of thinking about food and this sort of like logical fallacy, right? It, it, it, it makes sense on the surface. Um, and that is if I can, if I can fix anything that's [00:11:00] wrong in diet culture with Nutrivor, that would be the number one thing for me to fix, which is the crediting diet success to the restrictions rather than the foods that we're eating.

Jacqueline: I love that. That's so important and also to I mean in that same vein restrictive dieting, you know In terms of the psychological impact it has on folks, yeah, it does lead to probably more of a likelihood to binge eat, right? If you're restricting so many different food groups, your body's naturally going to crave things that you're depriving it, and then that just leads to binge eating, and then it creates a cycle of shame, and just how you view food, and, and, Again, being in a consistently stressed state when you're eating that impacts your digestion, right?

So it's all connected. And, there's so many dimensions that I feel like people don't really look at when it comes to food and your mental health and well being is certainly really, you know, one of the most important ones, in my opinion. 

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Yeah, I agree. 

Jacqueline: But yeah, oh my gosh, we could, this, this is, I'm kind of sad we're only limited to an hour, but there's just so many things I want to go into with you, but going back to nutrient, [00:12:00] uh, deficiency, I am curious, which nutrients, in your opinion, are people most likely to be deficient in today?

Because I've heard things across the spectrum.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Yeah, I mean, uh, I'll, I'll just quote, quote some, some data for you instead of, um, sharing my opinion. Um, so there are many different studies that measure this in different ways. So, um, I quote one study from 2011 in the book that the reason why I liked this study is they used really recent dietary recalls for, for, like, they used, like, Remember what you ate over the last two days as opposed to remember what you ate over the last year, right?

So like the more recent a dietary recall is, the more accurate it is likely to be. And then they also analyzed based on food, but then they, they separated out fortified foods and supplements, which I think is really important because we have this collection of research showing that we don't get the expected benefit from a multivitamin.

Like those nutrients don't seem to improve health [00:13:00] outcomes the way you would expect. Um, but we do get that improvement from it. from when we get those nutrients from foods. So that's why I like this study. So this study shows there's four essential nutrients for which 90 percent or more of us are not getting enough of from the foods we eat.

Uh, those are vitamin D, vitamin A, folate, and potassium. So those are the four that 90 percent of Americans aren't actually getting the daily value of those nutrients. Now, vitamin D is a weird one. I mean, we could probably like. Stick that in its own little box. Cause we do make our own in response to the sun.

We can kind of, we can kind of put that away. Um, most, most vitamins are in like the top 10 nutrients that we're deficient in, um, all of the fat soluble vitamins are so also vitamin E and vitamin K. Um, also, uh, like full eight vitamin C also magnesium, also calcium. So, um, you know, these are the [00:14:00] nutrients that half or more of us.

Never hit the daily value. Like it's, um, it's again, it kind of harkens back to your first question, which was like, why are we not deficient? And it's because, um, we don't have a fundamental understanding of the importance of these nutrients. Like most people don't understand, um, how potassium can lower.

blood pressure and how lowering blood pressure is not just about our cardiovascular health, but how that is really important for our kidney health. And that's just not a, not a thing that I think we understand. Now, of course, understanding the value of those nutrients is just step one, right? Then we have the challenge of ultra processed foods being extremely tasty and also affordable and easy to find and convenient, right?

They don't take much time and energy and they also don't [00:15:00] have a lot of nutrients, right? We have, like, the next barrier, which is, like, access and affordability and, um, taste, like, um, Adaptation to whole foods. Like we have the next layer. We have habit formation, right? There's there's other challenges to to increasing nutrient intake.

I think base knowledge is like step one. Like, let's understand it value it first. Then we can figure out the practical implementation. Um, but yeah, I mean, there's other studies will put zinc up higher in terms of like, Mhm. Nutrients that we're not getting enough of so like depending on exactly what study you're looking at.

Um, and exactly what popular are they only looking at 18 years old and over? Are they looking at 2 years and older? Right? Exactly how they're they're segmenting society, but it's, you know, those are the biggies. Those are the ones that that most people are not getting enough of. And then I would add on top of that fiber.

Fibers is the other one that some estimates are like 90 percent of people are not [00:16:00] hitting 14 grams per hundred, or 14 grams per thousand calories is the, is the, Daily 

Jacqueline: Yeah. I, I do want to touch on fiber and the war on plants in a little bit. But before we go there, before we go there, um, I am curious too, are there factors outside of our control? Like soil quality, for example, when it comes to nutrient deficiency. I had a conversation with Chris Kresser not too long ago and One of the topics that we spoke about was, you know, soil quality when it came to nutrient deficiency 

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: um, this is a very fantastic question. Um, it's one of the few places that I disagree with Chris Cresseron. Like, um, this, this is definitely a point a point where we are not aligned. Um, so, um, This is actually something that I talk about in chapter 10 in the book, which is like my myth busting chapter where I address myths like this.

Um, and there is a small section on, uh, these studies. So there was a 2004 study. This is the one that most people will point to [00:17:00] 2004 study that compared the nutrients and crops grown in the fifties versus like 1999 I think was like And it's using the USDA Nutrition Database, Food Central Database for comparing those nutrients.

And if you look at the tables and you don't understand statistics, and you don't understand like what a t test is, which is a really important statistical test for determining whether or not the difference between two sets of measurements, is what's called statistically significant. So statistical significance means there is a 95 percent chance that usually that's the, the level that's set.

You can set it at different levels, but it's typically set at 95%, 95 percent chance that the difference I'm seeing between these two Measurements is not due to chance, but it's an actual real legit difference. So what a lot of people have done over the years, I don't think Chris Cressor is one of them, but a lot of people have done over the years is go look at the [00:18:00] tables from this study and go show the differences between nutrients and ignore that the T test is showing that these are not statistically significant and going look at all of these differences, a 90 percent reduction in copper.

There was actually only six nutrients. For which that study showed that there was a statistically significant decrease in the amount of nutrients in fruits and vegetable crops in 99 versus the 1950s. The rest of the nutrients that were evaluated, there was not a statistically significant difference.

Then the authors of that study postulate that maybe one of the reasons for this is a nutrient depletion in soil, but they didn't test that. They put it out there in their discussion as a possible explanation. Subsequent studies have actually shown that nutrient, like overall, on average, you can, certainly you can find nutrient depleted soil, but on average, our soil is not depleted in [00:19:00] nutrients.

And they have shown that for those nutrients, even for which there was statistical significance, if you actually greatly expand your dataset, you look at. You know, thousands and thousands of samples, you see that the amount of nutrients in crops varies widely. There isn't a natural normal variation that is in some cases, like 20, 000 percent difference between the highest and lowest.

And that is the natural normal variation and the things that impact. the nutrients in a tomato or whatever it is, is it's so much. So yes, I mean the soil that it's grown in will have an impact, but so will the weather, right? So will the climate. So will the latitude and altitude that it's grown at. So will the cultivar, right?

So the other Um, the other explanation for a small drop in nutrients is, uh, growing different [00:20:00] cultivars for higher yield. So you have more food produced for the resources that plant is using, and that there's sometimes a little bit of a trade off for, of those nutrients. But there was a 2017 study that just like laid all this out.

Went through everything is a review, not just a study, but a review that reviewed everything, um, including all of these different measurements of soil quality. Um, and they said, look, there's lots of things that influence the exact nutrient composition of the tomato that you bought today. Um, including.

Whether or not you put it in the fridge when you got home, right? How long it sat on your counter, right? Like, there's lots of things that are going to influence it, but if you do the math and you just look at, you know, the recommended servings of vegetables, and you use the lowest amount of nutrients in that vegetable ever measured, right?

You use the most depleted of tomatoes that you could possibly find that has had the worst luck of all of [00:21:00] the different situations that would influence its nutrients. It's still really easy to meet our nutritional needs if you're eating enough of those fruits and vegetables. And that, I think, is the most powerful thing.

Like, we can't, like, yes, you probably are getting a more nutrient dense tomato if you buy it at your farmer's market than if you buy it at your grocery store. Or that if you grow it in your backyard in really rich compost and you are controlling the watering conditions and it's in, like, it's in the sun and it's super happy, right?

Like, you probably are getting more nutrients in that tomato. That's why it tastes so much better, right? Like, it nutrients taste good. Um, but there's still so much value in that much less flavorful tomato in the middle of winter in the grocery store. That's still a nutritionally valuable food. And so I think, you know, the, the answer to the question is like, our soil on average is not depleted.

Soil is one of many factors that does influence the exact nutrient composition of the crop foods that we're eating. Their nutrient composition [00:22:00] is widely variable. And it also doesn't matter. You can have the non organic, conventional, cheapest option, the thing that you bought at the gas station, and that is still a nutritionally valuable food, even when it is at the lowest level of that natural variation of nutrient content.

Jacqueline: That's really interesting. There's so many different factors for sure, but that peaked a thought I had because I remember reading in your book, um, and I've always grown up with my mom always buying organic food. She was one of the pioneers.

That's shopped at Whole Foods before Whole Foods is even a thing. Um, so I always grew up eating organic and I try to purchase organic now when I can. I know obviously the EWG's Clean 15 and Dirty doesn't make it so that you don't necessarily have to purchase everything organic. But you mentioned that some nutrients are enhanced in organic produce, increasing our overall nutrient density, but sometimes the reverse is true.

So I was really intrigued. Can you explain how the reverse might be true in that [00:23:00] sense?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Yeah. So, um, this is a great follow up question to our conversation of there being a lot of different factors that influence the exact nutrient composition. So there is a factor from the soil. rain climate, uh, whether, um, exactly like where it's grown also, whether or not fertilizers are used and what fertilizers are used.

And the thing about organic certification is it, it doesn't actually mean. Fertilizers are used or not used, right? There are organic fertilizers, but they may or may not be used. It doesn't actually mean that that soil is automatically really nutrient rich soil that that is grown in. It doesn't matter. It doesn't automatically mean that the weather lucked out.

It doesn't even necessarily mean that that fruit or vegetable is fresher in the store. Although, More often it is going to be but not necessarily and [00:24:00] so What we see is that if you use like average numbers you see some foods are slightly more nutrient dense when organic some are slightly Less the only one that's a big difference is tomatoes and they're actually less nutrient dense when grown organically.

But again, that's an average so I wouldn't want to say that organic is You Bad. Um, 'cause I, that that's not, that's not the case. That's not true. Um, but what's really fascinating is even studies that have looked at health benefits of eating organic versus eating conventional foods don't show a signal.

So they show that eating lots of fruits and vegetables is beneficial. Whether or not they're organic, um, so it's like the eating patterns and like the eating patterns of someone who eats a lot of organic foods are typically more healthy eating patterns. So you see what's called healthy user bias, which is, um, it is a thing that happens in the statistics in these studies where you're trying to measure one thing, right?

Like you're trying to measure [00:25:00] measure whether or not eating organic food is beneficial, like to stick with our current example. But. The behavior is associated with other things, including a lot of other things, and all of those benefits stack, so you can try to account for them in the statistics, but the more of those benefits that stack, the harder it is to fully account for it in mathematical modeling, so the more likely there is to be a residual effect, and this is what is seen in the organic versus conventional studies that have been done.

So somebody who eats organic is more likely to eat more fruits and vegetables, right, eat a more plant forward. diet, they're more likely to be active. They're more likely to be female. Uh, and we just, we just have lower rates of, of things. Um, and they're more likely to have a higher socioeconomic status because organic food is more expensive.

So that means social determinants of health working in their favor. So, um, so that I think is really empowering information because kind of similar to saying, you know, [00:26:00] Like, yes, you don't have to find a tomato grown in the 50s in order to have a good value tomato there. You don't have to grow it in your own backyard and have a good tomato.

Um, I mean, as, as a gardener, I do love my backyard tomatoes, but that is a flavor preference and the satisfaction of when you're an avid gardener, you know. Um, but the great thing is that also, I think is a really liberating piece of information because it means It's okay if we only can afford conventional.

It's still going to be a nutritious option and we, we don't need to worry about that in some way being bad. Um, and I, I think that makes these healthy eating patterns a lot more accessible.

Jacqueline: Yeah, again, there's so many different factors. My grandfather always had a garden growing up, and when he came here, he also had one in his backyard. So I grew up always eating his tomatoes, and I will never forget the taste of those tomatoes, like I've never ever had another tomato like that in my entire life. But again, you could assume it was [00:27:00] pretty high in nutrient density. He grew it right in his backyard, among other things too. So I'm a huge garden enthusiast. I currently live in an apartment, so I don't actually have one right now, but hopefully one day I'll be able to start my own.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Um, as a, as a brief tangent, as someone who lived in an apartment for many, many, many, many, many, many years, tomatoes are one of the things that's actually pretty easy to grow in a pot if you have 

any kind of, like, a balcony. So, the trick is, again, total tangent here, um, look for a variety that has either, like, bush in the name, So like it's that they're called bush tomatoes or it's called determinate.

So an indeterminate tomato is one that will grow forever. They're like these giant vines in there. I don't even grow them in my garden, even though I have tons of space now, uh, because they just become so crazy and unruly, but a determinate one will typically stay like no more than about three feet tall, kind of at its most.

And they're really easy to grow in a container. So. Tomatoes are something that was [00:28:00] that homegrown tomato flavors is definitely something that you can have access to. Yeah,

Jacqueline: I love that. When you could visit me, I'm going to take you to the swamp rabbit cafe. It's this little cafe off of the trail. They also have really, really great tomatoes. I'd probably say secondary, uh, to my grandfather's, but still, still pretty good.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: my my um, I get my Love of gardening from my grandparents as well. So, um, yeah grandparents grandparents, uh produce definitely is the best.

Jacqueline: Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, and going back though, so This concept of nutrivore, right, for those listeners out there who aren't familiar with your work, haven't yet read your book, what is nutrivore? Like, what, what is that diet at its heart? What does it entail?

What should your plate look like? What should we be shopping for? All of the above.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Okay, so Um, let me try to condense about three hours worth of information into a succinct answer Um, so neutrophors It's just the goal of getting all of the nutrients our bodies need from the foods we eat. That's all it is. It's a dietary philosophy, not a diet [00:29:00] itself. So when you think of a high quality diet as one that's just meeting our nutritional needs without exceeding our caloric requirements, right?

That, that super simple, very, very logical goal that is still yet not taught to us. By anybody. Um, when you actually look at the nutrient content of different foods, you see really quickly that there's like a million different ways that you could achieve that goal. Like you can, there's, there's so much flexibility in choosing foods and, um, as soon as I.

I realized that and started to like, you know, like I'm playing around, like, what if I, uh, choose this as like my breakfast and lunch? What does my dinner have to be to meet my nutritional needs? Oh my gosh, there's like 300 different dinners that could, that could do this, right? So as soon as you realize how, how wide that flexibility is, that's awesome.

Now, now it doesn't need to be a diet. Now, uh, there's no food you have to eat. There's no food you have to avoid. [00:30:00] It becomes something so inherently flexible, which is why I refer to NutriVore as a dietary philosophy, and a nutritional sciences education to help, like, Achieve that goal. So, with that as our like, base understanding of what a Nutri 4 is, it's just, it's just so that like, all the nutrients in all the foods that you eat add up throughout the day to meet or safely exceed your nutritional needs while staying within your range of caloric requirements.

Um, the great thing is, You can have some foods that are contributing tons of nutrition to your overall diet, and you could have some foods that aren't. But those foods that aren't, like, it still doesn't mean your diet didn't meet your nutritional needs, right? Like, you, you got all the nutrients you needed, and maybe those foods that weren't super, like, contributors to the nutrients you ate in the day, maybe those are the foods that made you really enjoy your meals, and made it feel like, Yeah.

I can keep doing this. I'm not, I'm not feeling deprived. I'm not missing out on anything. Those are the foods. I call them quality of life foods, but like foods, foods can give us three [00:31:00] things, right? They can give us energy, main those calories. They can give us nutrients and they can give us experience.

They can give us joy. And I, Ideally, we would be getting all of the above from everything we eat. But the wonderful thing about thinking about a high quality diet just purely in those terms of like, did I get the full range of essential and non essential nutrients that my body needed? Yes or no? Yes.

Great. It doesn't matter if some of the foods I ate were just like calories and experience and not much nutrients, right? Because we're evaluating the quality of the whole diet, not any one individual. food. So there are some overall eating patterns that help us achieve that goal really easily. So one is to get about 80 percent of our calories from whole and minimally processed foods.

That leaves up to 20 percent of calories to come from ultra processed foods, right? Like that's still, those, those are, can be the quality of life foods or the convenience foods or the budget stretching foods, or, you know, like those, that other 20 percent of calories can serve a lot of different purposes.

Jacqueline: How did you arrive at the, I was just going to 

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Oh, yeah. 

Jacqueline: at the 20%?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: I know. It's so, [00:32:00] it's so boring, right? Because it just sounds like the 80 20 rule. Um, but I promise it is, it didn't start as the 80 20 rule. It just circled back around to the 80 20 rule. Um, it actually comes from, um, dose response studies looking at ultra processed foods. So, um, there are a few really large prospective studies where they Looked at what percentage of the diet or how many servings of ultra processed foods are in the diet and they looked at all cause mortality, which is a general indicator of health and longevity.

It's really good in these types of studies as like an overall indicator of whether or not something is good. And they generally show that right around 20 percent of calories from ultra processed foods is where you start to see. all cause mortality start to tick up. They usually don't show like really big effects until about 40%, but 20 percent is kind of like, 20 percent or below, there's no health harm signal detected, then 20 percent you start to see it start to click up, and then by 40 percent you're like, oh no, yeah, this much ultra processed foods is definitely not good.

causing health [00:33:00] badness to happen. So, um, so I, I, I get 20 percent from those studies, um, and then go, Oh, Hey, that sounds like the 80, 20 rule. Uh, that wasn't, that wasn't the intention to start with. Um, and actually if you crunch the numbers, it's really easy to meet your nutritional needs with 80 percent of calories.

Like it's, you don't even, if you say, okay, uh, 20 percent of my calories are going to be. We'll call them empty calories. So that's a loaded term, but let's just, for the sake of it, let's just say it's white sugar out of the bag. Okay? So, 20 percent of my calories has no nutritive value whatsoever. Um, do I then have to eat, like, foods I don't like in order to meet my nutritional needs from the other 80%?

Like, do I have to now just eat kale and liver all day? And the answer is, like, no, like, you still get to eat a varied diet with lots of, like, more accessible foods and meet those nutritional needs for those 80 percent of calories. It's, it's, it's really very straightforward, um, to, to achieve that nutrient goal, even if you assume that [00:34:00] 20 percent of your diet is only, you know, contributing calories and not any actual nutrition.

Um, so that's, that's eating pattern. Number one, eating pattern number two is actually a varied diet. It's actually to eat a wide variety of foods. And that's because, well, it's two reasons. Um, when you eat a wide variety of foods, you are getting a wide variety of nutrients, right? And especially like the non essential nutrients, like phytonutrients and plant foods that we don't really, like, we know they're good.

We know the more of them you eat. on average, the healthier you are. We don't really understand how different classes of phytonutrients are different, which is why there's no like daily values for them. But we do know that the more different ones you have, like the better coverage you have for different like health outcomes.

And so when you're eating a wide variety of food, you're getting nutrients in more different forms. You're getting more different phytonutrients and you're less likely to have a nutrient shortfall. You're less likely to have a [00:35:00] little blind spot in your diet where you're missing a really important nutrient because, uh, different foods have different nutrients.

So 

Jacqueline: And, 

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: yeah, go ahead.

Jacqueline: you know, I was just going to say, and even too from a microbiome standpoint, I mean, you hear how diversity is critical for a healthy digestive system. So always, always optimize plant diversity.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: So, um, I love, so I love that you're, you're talking about the human gut project study from a few years ago that showed that people who ate 30 or more different plant foods per week had much healthier gut microbiomes than people who ate 10 or less. What's fascinating in different dietary diversity studies is about half of them show that diversity of vegetables is more important than diversity of other food groups.

And about the other half of them show, it doesn't matter. And it's just total dietary diversity, um, which I think is fascinating. Um, I think it's, this is one of those areas where like, we just need more studies because, um, like we don't, there's only one meta [00:36:00] analysis right now on dietary diversity, which is great.

We've got, we've got enough data for one, but like, boy, would it be great to have like a few hundred more studies to really be able to like say for sure this many different foods per day or this many different foods per week. We've got like little, little hints. Um, but it's really hard to, to like nail down an exact target.

Um, but that's also why Dietary diversity can be used as a proxy for diet quality. So there are studies where they will, um, measure diet quality in like third world countries, and they'll use dietary diversity as a measurement. And basically they'll show people with low dietary diversity have a lot of nutrient shortfalls, a lot of nutrients they're not getting, um, it typically equates to malnourishment.

And then people with high dietary diversity, Are getting enough of a lot more nutrients and overall have better, you know, health indicators. So, um, just eating as many different foods as we can, and [00:37:00] maybe eating more different vegetables might be more important. The jury's still out scientifically on that.

Um, that is a really important. Um, thing that helps us get more nutrients. And the third one is just eating lots of fruits and vegetables. Like, fruits and vegetables are so beneficial, and when we eat a lot of them, again, we're, we're more likely to be getting all of the, the nutrients that we need.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I, I love that. I couldn't agree more. On the topic of vegetables and plants, we hear a lot of talk nowadays from carnivore dieters out there, how plants have these toxins or anti nutrients, which actually can make us sick, like cytates. We hear about lectins, oxalates, et cetera. Can you please give us a rundown on the science behind that and 

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Mm hmm. 

Jacqueline: fact versus fiction?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Yeah. It's all fiction. Um, except that there's like a one in three million um, like genetic variant that does cause, um, uh, oxalate problems for people where they, their [00:38:00] bodies make too much oxalates. Um, and there are some health conditions where people absorb too much oxalates from their foods, um, like inflammatory bowel disease.

Um, and it can sometimes happen after gastric bypass. So with oxalates, there is like a very, very small percentage of people who really do have to limit dietary oxalates. Um, for everyone else, there's like no, No correlation between oxalate consumption like high oxalate foods like spinach or chocolate or rhubarb and kidney stones, which is where that research started because About 80 percent of kidney stones are calcium oxalate kidney stones.

That's oxalate that are bodies are making, uh, not that we're absorbing from food. And what happens is when you have oxalate oversaturation in the urine, so you're not drinking enough, um, then, because there's, there's like a little bit of a backflow, uh, sadly, um, especially when you're not drinking enough, um, that that actually can cause, um, the, uh, oxalic acid to crystallize, uh, with calcium.

And then [00:39:00] that can lead to the formation of kidney stones. Um, it doesn't seem to have a, a diet, like eating those high oxalate foods, like tea reduces risk of, um, calcium oxalate kidney stones. And, um, and the best thing we can do is just hydrate. So we don't have oxalate oversaturation in the urine. Again, with this, like there is a group of people who this is a legit concern for.

Um, The, the claims that are making the rounds now about, um, oxalates being bad for gut health or, uh, joint health are just, they're, they're zero factual basis for that other than like people with late stage kidney failure have, and joint symptoms, there is a rare form of, um, it's called calcium oxalate microcrystalline arthritis, I think, um, which is a form of Hyperoxyluria that can present before kidney stones.

Again. This is like a kidney failure or a [00:40:00] dehydrate chronic dehydration challenge 

not a I ate a lot of spinach challenge, right? Yeah, um, and we should never be judging the health benefit of a food based on extreme medical conditions like that's That's that doesn't mean anything for the general population, right?

Like that's that's just not how we think about it. Um, the phytates, fascinatingly enough, there's studies showing that there's studies where they use them as a supplement and show that they benefit us. Um, phytates are extremely closely related chemically to myelinositol, which has been shown to you.

pretty dramatically improve insulin sensitivity is a vitamin like compound. Um, there's, I can't remember what the name of the chemical is, but there are polymers and myoinositol has five of them and phytate is six of them. So it's like IP five and IP six. They're very strongly related and science is actually starting to catch up to, there may be some benefits of phytates.

And maybe we want to put this in a supplement. So I think that really negates our argument against phytates right there. Um, [00:41:00] and lectins, you know, like, yep, if you isolate lectins, um, if you chemically, uh, concentrate them, um, and you give them to animals. You can definitely measure, you know, some gut health, you know, increased intestinal permeability, you can measure some increased inflammation.

Fortunately for us, that's not what we're eating when we eat legumes or zucchini, right? We're not eating a, a, a pharmaceutical like substance. Um, and that's what that, that those studies are designed to test whether or not those isolated lectins have Some kind of benefit for this pharmaceutical industry, right?

That's what those studies are designed to look at. They're looking at the isolated compound. That's not what we're getting from the food. We're getting a whole food. It has fiber and polyphenols and vitamins and minerals. It has a lot of other things in it. And it has lectins at very low concentrations.

And especially if [00:42:00] you cook legumes, um, often you're reducing, you know, the lectin concentration to near zero just through the process of cooking it. And when you look at how eating the whole food impacts the whole us, rather than how the one compound impacts an animal model of colitis, um, you see reduced all cause mortality, reduced cardiovascular disease risk, reduced type 2 diabetes, uh, often, um, lower body mass index.

You see reduced risk of many forms of cancer, especially GI cancers. You see, uh, reduced risk of Alzheimer's disease and other neurodegenerative disease, right? You just, you just see health benefit after health benefit after health benefit, attributable to the fact that those foods are not. One chemical compound.

They're extremely nutrient dense. They have a lot to offer us nutritionally and our Biology is complex. So you have to kind of look at the whole food [00:43:00] because, sure, is there, you know, one biological pathway that's negative that might be turned on, right, by one compound? Sure. But is that same pathway also turned off by something else in that same food, right?

Are there other beneficial pathways that are turned on? Are there more good things happening than bad things happening? And that's why it's so important to look at the whole food.

Jacqueline: That was a beautiful explanation. And as you were going through that, one thing that came to mind, and this is a perfect example of that is we look at blueberries, for example, right. In the context of a cancer patient. So I'm super passionate, as you may know, about integrative oncology, and I've done quite a bit of research on the quote unquote, best diets for cancer.

And I think again, sadly, foods are villainized to the point where we do only look at one component, like. Sugar fructose and blueberries and right away people think oh cut off all sources of glucose for cancer You don't want anything, but that's not necessarily true because blueberries contain Antioxidants and other incredible nutrients that actually can turn off [00:44:00] cancer cells right cancer cell activity and inhibit Angiogenesis, so I mean again it you really do have to look at the the food as a whole not just a concentrated part And I think it's kind of in those weeds where, you know, people get into the, the dietary wars and claims and they're both so deep down.

They're not looking at the overall picture. Um, which I think is, you know, uh, could perhaps change a lot in the dietary food wars we see today.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: And I think, you know, I fell for this way of thinking before too, like, again, um, it sounds, there's this like logical way, it sounds logical on the surface, um, you know, hey, this food has this thing, and that thing is bad, so we shouldn't eat it, right? We think of the same thing when we think about like, toxic plants, right?

Like, um, poison ivy has one bad thing, right? Urushiol. Uh, and if you touch it, um, 85 percent of people are going to have a reaction to it. And like, let's not have those blisters inside. Let's not eat that, right? There's a lot of, um, Like, uh, Bella, Donna [00:45:00] is a, a, a toxic nightshade, right? Like, yes, it's the glyco alkaloids in that plant that caused the toxicity, but a, those are different glyco alkaloids than what's in a tomato and very, very different concentrations.

And you know, a tomato's got all of this. Lycopene and other nutrients that are really beneficial. And I think that because we're kind of used to like, Oh yeah, this thing has this thing, bad thing in it. Right. We think of, I mean, it's not just in food. Right. Um, think of it in terms of like street drugs laced with fentanyl, right.

It's got this bad, like there's this bad thing. There's the poison thing that we're scared of. Um, we do think of. things to avoid that way a lot, right? Um, and so I think that there's this logical sounding, hey, you know, tomatoes have glycoalkaloids in them and glycoalkaloids in large quantities can cause all of these bad things.

So we shouldn't eat [00:46:00] tomatoes. Right. And I think the thing that's missing for the average person is the context of dose. This is what the entire field of toxicology is all about. It's about understanding what happens, uh, at different doses of different compounds. And just because something is present in any quantity, does not mean a harmful amount of that thing is present.

Right. Um, and there are many compounds like The glycoalkaloids in tomatoes that are anti inflammatory in the levels we get in tomatoes and pro inflammatory in the levels we get from belladonna, right? Like there's, there's lots of compounds that kind of change the pharmacology of them changes at different doses.

And so, um, it, it sort of, there's this really like surface logic to this has this bad thing in it. We shouldn't, we shouldn't eat it. Right. Right. That there, it, it is really easy. to buy into that. Um, and then the conversation to have to overcome those fears is much more detailed because now we need to talk about things [00:47:00] like the no observed adverse effect level, right?

Like we're talking about toxicology terms now. We're talking about, um, all of the nutrients that food contains and judging the food as a whole. And then maybe also talking about how much of that food is beneficial and how much is too much of that food, right? There is an amount of tomatoes you can eat where the amount where the glycoalkaloids.

could cause glycoalkaloid poisoning. It happens to be 300 pounds per day. So for most of us, we're not eating 300 pounds of tomatoes. Like it's fine. Um, but it's only three pounds of green tomatoes, right? So like those are really interesting, nuanced conversations to have. And unfortunately in diet culture right now, it is so boiled down to be afraid of this thing by my solution, right?

That's the other, it's the other challenge is it's always paired with It's all fear based marketing. It's all, I'm going to make you afraid of this thing, uh, to try to sell you this other thing. But what people leave, whether, whether or not they buy the thing, they still leave with the fear. Right. And then here, the next [00:48:00] thing to be afraid of, and the next thing to be afraid of and restrictive, restrictive 

diets abound.

Jacqueline: Conversation comes full circle, going back to restriction. At its heart, Dr. Ballantyne, what should an ideal food plate look like? 

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: So, um, as a, uh, Like the default mode on Nutrivore is something that I call the Nutrivore Meal Map. It is 100 percent a rip off of my plate, I admit to that, with some important differences. Um, so I define what goes into each section of the plate a little bit differently, and the reason for that is I'm looking at foods in terms of nutritionally, being nutritionally interchangeable.

So instead of having a quarter of the plate that is, I have a quarter of the plate that's whole grains, I have a quarter of the plate that's starchy foods, because we're getting really similar nutrients from legumes and from root vegetables, right? So it doesn't, I don't restrict that quarter of the plate to just whole grains.

So, just to say, like that is an example of an important difference. Um, the NutriForm Meal Map is, take your plate, divide it into roughly four quarters, [00:49:00] no protractors and rulers allowed it here. Um, and fill one quarter with whole grains. starchy food, ideally a whole starchy food. Um, so that could be a whole grain, a legume, a root vegetable, but you know, like white rice could fit there too, right?

Like, ideally whole, but, uh, mix it up. So once you get diversity in there, we're all good. One quarter with a protein food. So that could be meat or fish or eggs or cheese or broth or a plant protein. Um, and if you're going to have a plant protein, like a whole plant protein, like lentils, you kind of merge that with your starchy.

Quarter of your plate because they're they're that food is providing both of those bits and then the remaining half And the reason why we still think of it as quarters is because ideally we want diversity So ideally we want two or more but the remaining half is fruits and vegetables Ideally eating the full rainbow, right?

A diversity, leaning a little bit more towards the vegetables than the fruit. I like to have vegetables with my [00:50:00] meals and fruit as like a dessert or a snack. So I typically don't put fruit on my plates. Um, so you could just have that half be vegetables and say fruit for a snack. If that's, if you're like me and that you prefer that as an eating pattern.

Um, and just have most of our meals look like that. No, no, not every meal has to look like that, right? Like some meals can be imbalanced. That doesn't mean we have an imbalanced diet, right? If most of our meals are balanced, then our diet overall is going to be balanced. And what's great about this way of just designing a plate is it typically keeps our macronutrients balanced.

So it keeps our, the percentage of our diet, that is protein, carbs, and fat within the accepted macronutrient distribution ranges, which is the definition of a balanced diet. diet, but it also tends to balance micronutrients. So it tends to get a, like, we're getting that full spectrum of vitamins and minerals and essential fatty acids and essential amino acids and phytonutrients and fiber rich foods.

That means that we're more easily achieving that nutrient goal without having to like pay [00:51:00] attention to the exact nutrient breakdown of each food on our plate.

Jacqueline: I love that. That was a beautiful explanation. And follow up question on that, does it matter when we eat? So I recall you mentioning that ideally we want to eat three meals per day. I think you said spaced about five hours apart. Is that the, the optimal way to schedule our eating pattern throughout the day?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Yeah, so there's some really interesting, I find meal timing research to be really fascinating, especially because it contradicts a lot of the messaging we get from intermittent fasting. Um, when we eat our meals is, uh, what's called a zeitgeber, which is, uh, from the German meaning time giver, but it is anything that sets our circadian rhythms, right?

So it's anything that affects our circadian clock. So our body has a ton of, Biological processes that are either prioritized for when we're sleeping and resting or prioritize for when we're awake, right? So tissue repair while we're sleeping digestion while we're awake, right? Just as an example, um, and [00:52:00] so we wonder, we want to ideally live in sync with the sun, right?

That is, the best thing we can do to have really solid circadian rhythms that improve sleep quality, uh, that all kinds of things, right? Like your motivation to exercise, it regulates your appetite, like improves insulin sensitivity, right? It does all kinds of, there's all kinds of benefits of, of having, you know, really well in translocating rhythm.

But I think it's, it's not really well recognized out there that one really important zeitgeber is eating breakfast, ideally within about

two hours of waking up. And we're getting this collection of research now, um, big meta analyses showing Uh, that eating breakfast regularly reduces risk of cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, and all cause mortality.

Um, but then we're also starting to get the, this research, right? There's that abstract that was just presented at a conference. I'm really waiting for this to be peer reviewed so we can actually interpret the data properly. We don't want to, we don't want to get too excited about an abstract presented at a conference because there's a lot that can happen in that [00:53:00] study before it actually becomes published in a peer reviewed journal.

But they just showed that people who intermittent fasted and had an eight hour feeding window or lower with a What's called late time restricted feeding so they weren't eating breakfast had an increased risk of cardiovascular disease Again, it's really early data. We need up. We're gonna have all the caveats for that study because it's not published yet But I think we're starting to see this come in the literature a lot is You Breakfast is important and it's important no matter what we eat and it's important because it regulates our circadian rhythms and our stress axis.

So one of the, we have two really important circadian rhythm hormones. One is melatonin. So people know that because they take it at night and help them sleep. The other one is cortisol. So cortisol is like the hormone that tells our body that, Hey, it's daytime now. And melatonin is the one that says like, Oh, sleepy, sleep time.

And so, um, when we have breakfast that actually lowers our morning cortisol spike, it helps to regulate cortisol. It regulates things like [00:54:00] our glucose responses. to lunch. Um, it regulates their stress responses later in the day. Um, and it's a really interesting catch 22 because of course, if you have high stress that suppresses, that tends to suppress morning appetite, uh, which then tends to lead to skipping breakfast because you don't want to eat.

And then that can actually increase, you It's like the physiological stress response, even if it's not impacting the like psychological stress. So, um, so yeah, I mean, studies show that it's kind of optimal to eat three meals a day spaced about five hours apart. That's obviously not practical for everybody.

And obviously if you work the night shift, like all of that is like completely flipped. Um, but, um, but yeah, I think that working on breakfast as a, as a healthy habit, I mean, the science is really clear that that improves health outcomes. What I think is. again, sort of like liberating information from that science is that it matters more that you eat, not what you eat.

So if all you can stomach is a piece of toast, uh, that's a great place to [00:55:00] start. Or maybe like a banana. Like it's, it's a great, you can really like warm into it, um, and kind of work on the habit and then work on the breakfast composition. Um, and obviously if you're going to go more than five hours, that's when a snack is a good idea.

Um, so ideal is kind of like, yeah, five, give or take half an hour. Um, And the other great thing is that it automatically kind of puts us at a relatively early dinner, which improves sleep quality. So, it does really like all align, like you can really see like the consistency of all of those results in the research.

Um, but it definitely goes against the most popular fad diet right now, which is intermittent fasting.

Jacqueline: What are your thoughts on intermittent fasting, but with someone who opts to eat breakfast earlier in the morning? So let's say someone has breakfast at eight a. m. and then they stop eating it. 430 or 5. So they are in a fasted state for quite a while.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: the science shows that as if you're going to intermittent fast, that's a much better way to do [00:56:00] it. Um, so a lot of the trade offs with intermittent fasting in terms of the bio, the biology of it really come from that breakfast skipping part. Uh, so an early time restricted feeding window is much more beneficial than a late time restricted feeding window.

Also, a slightly longer window, so, Like fasting for 12 to 14 hours is great. Like we do, we do legit, like our, even our gut bacteria have circadian rhythm. Like they, they do need to not be fed while we're sleeping. So if you have an early dinner and you sleep the recommended eight hours, that typically puts you like, and you don't eat as soon as you get up in the morning.

That typically puts you in that 12 hour. Range already. So, um, a slightly longer window, like more like 8 to 10 hours instead of 6 to 8 hours is also going to be typically, I think, more beneficial. It's more where the science is that, um, so, you know, here's here's the thing. There are [00:57:00] people who. And this is why we don't want to necessarily one size fits all, right?

There are people for whom intermittent fasting is the only thing they have ever done that actually works and is sustainable to regulate their energy intake, right? It's the only thing they've ever done that has helped them to not die. It's the only thing that works and if that's you, like, I'm like, that's amazing that you found a strategy that works like maybe shift so that you're eating breakfast to have an early time restrictive feeding window instead of a late time restrictive feed window and work on the, the, you know, nutrient density of the meals that you're eating.

Um, and watch things like, I mean, all of us should be watching things like our cardiovascular disease risk factors, right? So like your doctor's probably already on that. Um, but I think that it's why. We don't want, like, I'm not a big fan of intermittent fasting, but I do want to honor the people for whom it is a really remarkable solution 

Jacqueline: right. 

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: from them, if that makes sense.[00:58:00] 

Jacqueline: If you're not a fan of intermittent fasting, I'm really curious of your thoughts on longer extended fast. So folks who opt to fast for maybe 24 48 hours. I mean, I've heard people try to do that once a month. Some people do it like twice a year. And certainly I think obviously depends on the individual, if someone's female, it depends on where they're at in their cycle, right?

There's so many different factors, but overall, are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: I think like overall, the science doesn't tell me that there's any health benefits to that. Like obviously there's like religious fasts, there's like other, there's a benefit to a religious fast that is separate from the fasting part. You know what I mean? Like, um, so. Um, not talking about that, talking about, um, somebody who is doing a water fast just because they've been told that it's healthy for them.

Um, that's not really what the science shows. And there's some really interesting things like through a longer [00:59:00] fast, uh, inflammatory markers tend to go down. And so there's this like marketing that's like, oh, look, yeah, like reduces inflammation. But those things come back as soon as you break a fast, right?

Like it, it's not, it doesn't last through refeeding on the other side of, of a, of a fast. Um, and so that to me is like, it's just an adaptation, right? Your body's going, Oh shoot, I have no food. There's almost always a stress response there. Um, And if the, if the biological pathways that you're turning on through fasting are not going to, that are beneficial, are not going to stay on through refeeding, that's not a sustainable way to improve your health.

And if you're looking for reducing inflammation, there's a lot of other daily diet patterns that will, will help as well, getting some activity and getting enough sleep and managing stress, right? It's much more than just about what we're eating and when we're eating.

Jacqueline: Interesting. 

We covered, We covered, so [01:00:00] much, um, but again, there's still so much more I want to ask you. So I'd love to have you back on again at some point,

but I feel like we covered, um, Probably the heart of the topics, um, in this book. So with that, Dr.

Valentine, where can listeners find you and pick up a copy of your book?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: So my book is called Nutrivore, the radical new science for getting the nutrients you need from the food you eat. And it is out now. It is available from just about any online bookseller and many local bookstores. Um, and you can go check and see if your local library is carrying it. If they're not, you can put in a request and they can go get a copy and then Everyone in your community can benefit from a copy being there.

Um, and it's available in hardcover, digital versions like Kindle, and also an audio book that I narrated myself, uh, which was very, very fun. So, uh, and people, people seem to think I, I mean, I felt like I did a good job, but I'm obviously like in the room and biased. Um, the feedback on the audio version has been really great so far.

So that's, uh, very exciting for me. I love that. my. website is [01:01:00] NutriVore. com, um, there's a lot of really deep dive articles there that are really like building that nutritional sciences, education, even deeper than the book, so if you like the book, that's where to go for, for more information, and then on social media, I'm at Dr.

Sarah Ballantyne. It

Jacqueline: I will be linking all of those in the show notes. And congratulations on the audiobook. I can imagine that must have been a lengthy process, but you have such a 

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: was, ah, thank you. Yeah, it was, um, I, I, I mean, I think I started with a high amount of respect for audiobook narrators, but I ended going. People who do this for a living are absolute heroes. It is, it is a hard job. Um, yeah. So it was very, very fun. Um, but, uh, I would not, I don't, I'm, I'm not made for that as a, as a regular full-time gig for sure.

Jacqueline: Well, Dr. Ballantyne, thank you so much again for your time. This has been so much fun. Um, and I do have one last question for you. And that Sure. does being well [01:02:00] and strong mean to you?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: I, um, to me it is, you know, that moment where there's no stimulation, there's nothing happening, and it's that transition from. Go, go, go to, um, relaxation mode, right? That one moment in between where there is nothing but your, your default state. It is when that one moment, that default state is 

joy and happiness.

That is what well and strong for me. That is what I, what I, that is my, all of my choices are about that goal. Of in that moment where I'm suddenly aware of my inside, cause I've been focused on my outside for so long and my inside is joyous and happy.

Jacqueline: That's beautiful. I could imagine that feeling as you were describing that. So something we all need and seek on a daily basis. Well, [01:03:00] thank you so much again. And I'm so excited to share this with listeners and I'll let you know when it goes live.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: Thank you. Please do.


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Jacqueline Genova

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