NOVL Takes: Real Talk

In our first episode, we discuss "Real Talk": What it is, how it functions in professional spaces, and what happens when businesses discourage its use.

Transcript

Rachel:  Hey there beautiful people Welcome to NOVL Takes the podcast where we lift the veil on business As usual join us for our novel takes on business culture and the art of getting things done I'm partner and principal Rachel Gans Boriskin 

Sarah: and I'm founder and principal Sarah Patrick 

Rachel: It's time for this week's NOVL Today we're gonna talk about real talk, what it is, how it functions in professional spaces, and why we here at NOVL, think it's important. 

Sarah: But first, this is our first show and we're gonna take a minute to introduce ourselves and talk about why we are doing this podcast. Do you wanna start? 

Rachel: Sure. So So, so my name is Rachel Gans-Boriskin.

And I am a partner here at NOVL. And before coming to NOVL, I worked many different places, but a lot of it as a professor of communication. And my interests are pretty wide ranging. I've taught on organizational communication, journalism, political communication, media theory, all of these. . But the fundamental aspect of it is, of course, communicating.

Mm-hmm . And how is it that we can make ourselves understood. Sometimes how we say things is more important than what we say. And you know, I've certainly felt that as a parent of teenagers as a partner even the way I talk to my dogs, the, the way I say it matters. Communication matters. So I'm excited to be bringing that here in this work that I'm doing with you, Sarah.

Sarah, why don't you introduce yourself?

Sarah: Well, I'm excited to have you here. As you know, my career has looked like, you know, many different things. It's taken many different shapes. But I think the through line for me is really two things. Complex problem solving and systems implementation. I'm really curious about how structural change can be made through implementing new systems on all levels of industry.

And so that's what really brings me into doing really any work. But particularly the work that we are doing here at NOVL and the work that we do together. And so I think, you know, our. really compliments each other. You know, we think that about each other But you know, I'm, you know, I want you to talk about why we are subjecting ourselves and others to another podcast cuz we, we know we love our work, but why are we doing this podcast?

Rachel: You know, I think, I think first and foremost, I, you know, we have fun, right? You know, we'll spend time working and I always walk away feeling so energized. Our conversations are so enjoyable and so, you know, I guess one thought is. . Other folks might find it enjoyable too.

Sarah: We think.

Rachel: We hope . But also it, it's been my experience that we learn when we talk things through, right?

We learn in communication when we bounce ideas off each other. And so this is a way. , you know, letting the public in on our process a little helping us clarify what we're thinking and, and hopefully sparking interesting conversations for other people. 

Sarah: Yes, ma'am. And that brings us to today's topic, which is real talk.

We are both minorities, we're parents, and we don't have time for respectability politics. So we are here today to talk about real talk. What is that? What does that mean? . 

Rachel: Yeah. So real talk. I, I think first is, I, I never really heard this term real talk until a couple years ago when I was reading a Twitter thread that said, you know, do you know that white people don't have a concept of real talk?

And you know, this is the, when you look at a friend and you say. No, no. . Nuh, I gotta be real with you. This is a terrible idea. 

Sarah: Yep. 

Rachel: And 

Sarah: not that, 

Rachel: and it, it, you know, got me thinking. I'm, I'm from a Jewish family. We argue a lot. We, we call it like we see it. There's a fair amount of argument and goodhearted conflict.

And, and you, you call things out. And it never really occurred to me that other people don't do that. And, and hearing that, it started me thinking about my own experience mm-hmm. professionally of being the person in a, a workspace who says, Hey, , I, I see a problem. What are we doing? And, and kind of the response I get.

I, I, you know, I, I wonder if you've felt this. 

Sarah: Oh, absolutely. I think the, it's complicated though, being a black woman, the relationship with Real Talk, because it's so much a part of my kind of personal and my personal culture, the culture that I was raised in, in my family, the culture that I exist in.

I think part of my blackness in a lot of ways is being able to speak honestly with Kin folk, skin Folk .It's it complicates itself in a professional sphere. Because I don't want to be responsible for being the voice of, you know, everything. Just because I am understood to be 

Rachel: you're gonna be the angry black lady, right?

Sarah: Right. , there's that. 

Rachel: Right, right. So there's, there's the risk. You're, you know, 

Sarah: there's that. But if I have some insight, right, I wanna be able to share that insight. And I think it gets additionally complicated because of the positions that I have usually found myself in. Right? I'm usually the project manager.

I'm the strategist. I'm the one who's been asked to come on the team to like help, have insight into different kind of garner the perspectives of others, bring those perspectives together. And so I have again, that kind of complex insight into a problem. So I am positioned to be able to speak honestly about the challenges that an organization is up against, that a project is up against.

And then you add the layer of. race. On top of that, you add the layer of, you know, my rearing on top of that, where I'm prepared to speak, honestly, to speak openly, but there's some respectability politics that come into like, is this appropriate in this work environment? Mm-hmm. , is this something that is, is.

Welcome in this work environment. Can this be heard? Can this be heard from me? From my, from, from a body that looks like mine? Can this be heard from a gender of mine? You know, the, the gender that I'm in and that I represent. Can this be heard? You know, from somebody who's just in my position, right?

I'm the project manager here. Is that even is, should I give this information to somebody else or can I speak it out loud? Can I speak it out loud in this room? 

Rachel: Right. 

Sarah: Right. So there's all of these other complexities to this, to, to often having the data, wanting to share the data, wanting to share the information.

I think though, you know, and we have talked about this, there's. one way or another. The goal is not to swallow the, to swallow your, your, the information. And this is, I think, the point, the what, the point we're trying to make about real talk is that like it serves a function, right? It has a function in professional life, right?

It's kind of where I come 

down on it, right? 

Rachel: And I, I mean, I, I think of meanings I've been in, where I've actually gone. I have a notebook in front of me and I have written down in very large letters, DON'T SPEAK. Because experience has taught me that nothing good is gonna come of this because people aren't really prepared to listen.

There's sort of this, oh, oh, why are you raising this? You're gonna cause conflict. Mm-hmm. . And I kind of said, well, in, in roles I've been in certain roles. People don't really wanna hear me. Mm-hmm. , and it's actually to my detriment. And that, you know, career-wise, it may be a mistake to say things. And I think that there is this larger cultural space that in, you know, a lot of sort of mainstream US culture.

We're gonna be nice. It's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be no conflict. And the absence of conflict is the ideal. That's what we're striving for as opposed to honest discussion that leads to resolution that takes things into account. And so there's this, this pressure and I think because of the way I was raised, , I didn't quite realize until I was reading this sort of thread about real talk that that was the dynamic Mm.

That I'd been facing, that I had missed this undercurrent that we were all supposed to get along. And suddenly I, I understood why there were often these people kind of trying to soften what I was saying and minimize it and. and that feeling that I have of, but no, I, I actually, I meant it as a criticism 

Sarah: You know, but I think, you know, if we're all, I can understand the interest of conflict minimization, right?

If we're all flowing in the direction of of minimizing conflict, then hopefully we are attempting to work in harmony, right? , but what do we miss when we are only engaging in harmonious, kind of harmonious engagement, harmonious play. Yeah.

Rachel: I, I think, you know, working off what, what you're saying here I, I think harmony, it's really good to have, you know, nice collegial conversations and a, and a work environment, but I, I think it's a, a false choice, right? Mm-hmm. that we can have harmony, we can have a, a nice working relationship in which we are still enabled to, to speak and to identify problems.

And when surface harmony is the, the ideal mm-hmm. then we lose things and, and we miss things and, you know, we are. often silencing people who may have a different perspective. You know, I, I think there's another, you know, you talked about being in the body. You are being a black woman in these rooms.

Mm-hmm. and, and the weight that's there. And I think another part of this is, you know, often in discussions we hear about white women's tears. . So that a conflict where you know, you raise an issue and you know, a a white woman will say, Ooh, ooh, that's not, let's, let's calm this down. And, and you don't wanna be soothed.

You don't wanna be shushed, you meant it right. And you come back and then there are tears. , and I've certainly seen this phenomenon. But I think it's probably also that many white women are socialized in a way that keeping the peace is their job. Hmm. It's gotta be, everything's gotta be quiet, everything's gotta be nice.

Hmm. And that if you don't do that, if there is any kind of acrimonious, anything you've fail. , you failed in your job as a human being. 

Sarah: Okay. 

Rachel: And then like, so that, that tension is actually like, it cuts deep. It's like a referendum on who you are. 

Sarah: That's her job. Yeah. 

Rachel: That's her job.

Sarah: Okay. 

Rachel: Her job is to, to make things nice.

We don't talk about religion, we don't talk about politics. Let's just, you know, pass, pass the chardonnay and we're gonna, we're gonna keep things calm and, happy. 

Sarah: Right. But I guess, you know, even I, I can understand if that is that, if that is that person's socialization, but if it is another person's socialization to make sure, I mean, again, I don't know that, I don't know anybody who was raised in a in a culture where it is designed for conflict, right?

 For those who are raised, like not to shy away from, you know, some of those elements of conflict that need to be addressed, that actually in addressing them help us get back to a truer, more harmonious state.

Sarah: Right. You know, we are, I think . Ultimately we silence those folks in the room, right? When we only work for this idea of harmony, right? 

Rachel: Mm-hmm. , 

Sarah: when we are only in this space, we are constantly trying to like shy away from and quiet conflict. And again, I am not here rooting for being in a conflict contentious culture.

Please hear me. Do not, I am not saying that, but I'm saying when there are these moments where we are noticing tension, we are noticing issues that that need to be addressed. You know, for those of us who have some will and, and the kind of cultural background to be able to address them it can be really challenging when there is.

Or an organizational culture that shies away from conflict to be able to come into that room and be the one that addresses it. Especially, you know, going back to that first point when you are also carrying like layers of kind of cultural assumption that you're gonna be that person anyways.

Rachel: Right. And, and I think, I think what's helpful what, what's been helpful, at least to me about this is a, a reframe to say, Let's understand the socialization of different groups within a room and understanding. In some ways, we're dealing with cross-cultural communication that is obscured that you don't know how someone else has been socialized because it's, it's just different than yours, right?

And so that maybe by raising. The topic in advance say, well, how is it as a team? Do we wanna deal with conflict? This is the way I see conflict. This is the purpose I see. And having those conversations in advance, maybe we can kind of short circuit that dynamic so that we can hear these things because if we don't,

if we don't, wow. You know, there are, you end up with group think, right? You end up with, things have gone horribly wrong and there's some postmortem and there's someone in the room going, I knew it, right? I knew it, but I couldn't say it 

right. 

Sarah: What I used to call us, throw you under the bus meeting , everybody gets in the room.

It's like, it was you, it was you. It wasn't me, it was them. You know? And they bring all the data that will support why it was not them and why it was somebody 

else in the room. 

Rachel: Right. And really, it's, it's a question of the culture that's created. Do people feel empowered right to speak up. You know, you can go to the, the challenger explosion, the, the shuttle where, you know, there were scientists who knew that there were problems with the O rings, the things that failed and there, organizational studies on this.

But that essentially, , there wasn't room in those spaces to raise it. Mm-hmm. , and they didn't wanna be the people who delayed the launch. And that, I mean, that clearly has, you know, life and death 

Sarah: Right. 

Rachel: Implications. And, and most of us aren't working in, in places where, you know, the consequences are so life altering.

But we certainly don't want a project that you've been working. For months to, to hit a snag because we, you, you hadn't created a space where people could, could raise issues. 

Sarah: Right. 

Rachel: You know, I, I think back to a class I taught on advertising and there was a, a beer ad that said, you know, remove no from her vocabulary.

And you know, when we, we have conversations about, Date rape and, you know, no means no. The fact that there was a room where no one in that room either understood 

Sarah: Right. 

Rachel: That that was a bad idea as a slogan. 

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: Or felt empowered 

Sarah: or cared 

Rachel: to say.

Sarah: Right. 

Rachel: That's a problem. And that ends up being a PR nightmare.

So what are, what are those rooms where those decisions are being made? Mm-hmm. , who's in the room?. And it's not just who's in the room, but who's empowered to speak in the room. Which, you know, is really about this, this business context. 

Sarah: Right. And I think I hear you talking about the design of a system.

Rachel: Mm-hmm. , 

Sarah: which, you know, I love or the design of a system, but also to implement something like that in advance of the rise of a conflict. Right? Like we're talking about a, a Cultural potentially shift, or at least, you know, kind of designing that culture in advance of its need. And so I think that that's really important and kind of critical to being able to kind of catch that conflict.

when it arises. Mm-hmm. . And at the time of, of need, because then you have a process for how to address conflict when that conflict comes up. 

Rachel: Right. And, and I think that there are workflow patterns that actually you know, make it part of a system so that you are creating space for dissent where you are you know, coming up with worst case scenario where you've empowered as part of the process critique.

And you normalize it. And that I think is essential. And in order to do that, you've had a conversation in advance that says conflict can be good. Right? And, and, and I just, I, I would also clarify to say conflict on its own isn't a value, right? 

Sarah: It's a function. 

Rachel: It's a function. And that, you know as, as we used to say to my, my children, you can, you know, disagree without being disagreeable.

And how do we facilitate that? And I think the first part is saying, Hey, are we a culture that actually allows dissent? And, you know, it, it, it's important to hear what everyone in the room says because there are probably folks who think, yeah, it is. , but they may not be the ones who feel that, you know, they can't speak mm-hmm.

So, so recognizing those, you know, power differentials, those, you know, sort of positionality. 

Sarah: Right, right. And building that into the operations of the culture. 

Rachel: Yes.

Sarah: Right. 

Rachel: So I mean, I think, you know, we, we also bring this back to, you know, obviously in our conversation here, there is this DEI component.

Mm-hmm. , you know, creating culture. That feel safe for people to bring in their, their full expertise. Mm-hmm. you know, that's a value for a business, right? But it's also a value for the individuals in it. And as we strive to make more inclusive spaces to really value the insights of different groups and different individual.

It takes work and it has to, it involves rethinking a lot of this. . 

And again, I think to that point about, you know, yes, the value of the individual, absolutely always. But as we begin to think about how to operationalize some of this, design it into the systems and processes of the organization, you know, you move it off the burden of the individual and all the other individuals of the room to either, you know, speak up on their own.

Or to kind of normalize in the room speaking up. You make it part of the function of that of that organization for, like you said, for dissent to be okay for feedback, to be welcome for for, you know, for all of this back and forth to be part of the process. And I think that that. critical to making sure that all voices are heard as projects get, you know, created, implemented, designed, et 

cetera.

Yeah. I mean, so I, I, I think, you know, this is, this is a good place to, to close this conversation for now. Right? Right. As we've had our real talk. We hope you've enjoyed this 

"Real Talk". 

Before we go, if this conversation has piqued your interest and you wanna hear more about what we have to say, stay tuned for other episodes. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, please subscribe, rate, and review us. , give us some love 

And if you're curious about what we do over here at NOVL or you think we could help you or your organization out, check us out and send us an inquiry over @thinknovl . Com.

That's T H I N K N O V L .com. That's it for us. Shout out to everyone who helped us make this show Mira, who helps edit and produce the show to Alva, who is forever an inspiration. This is NOVL Takes