Covid- Roses & Thorns

In this episode of NOVL Takes, we discuss the legacy of Covid in the business context. What changed for the better, the worse, as well as the missed opportunities.

Transcript

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Hey, there beautiful people. Welcome to NOVL Takes, the podcast where we lift the veil on business as usual. Join us for our novel takes on business, culture and the art of getting things done. I'm partner and principal Rachel Gans-Boriskin. And I'm founder and principal Sarah Patrick. It's time for a new NOVL Take. Today we're talking about Covid. There's no denying that the Global Pandemic has offered an abundance of forced disruptions, challenges and learning opportunities. But what have been the takeaways? I mean, I think Covid affected every area of our lives. We could do a whole podcast on that alone. We call it the Covid Takes But today's show, we're just gonna focus on some of the ways that Covid impacted, business in particular. Having said that, before we look at business, I thought we could do a little exercise that I used to do with my kids. I don't know if you're familiar with this, roses and Thorns? Yes. I will tell you, in my house, we actually just did roses because my kids were so willing to go to thorns. I didn't need that. I, I just needed a positive, . But for us, I think you and I can handle both the rose in the thorn. So, my rose was actually spending time, with my family as a family. And really in the early days it was like, we actually like each other. Mm-hmm. This is nice. And, and getting to spend that time. My husband travels a lot, usually, and actually Covid was the longest my children had ever been around their father. Wow. the thorn was kind of like, oh my God, we're all here all together. All the time. It was a lot of togetherness, so somehow the thorn was the other side of the rose. Absolutely. What about you? I think it's similar for me. I'll lead with my thorn The thorn for me was probably the challenge of not being able to be around other people. So it was just me and my son for the most part in our home, for the early parts of Covid. That was really challenging. Not being able to be as social as we're used to being. The rose of that was being in the house with my son and really having an opportunity to rethink a lot of the things that help us thrive. And that was a rethink of my professional life, a rethink of our home life, a rethink of the balance between the two of us, in our family dynamic and in our home. So just kind of every, every domain, had a bit of a rethink. And there was plenty of time to think. Right. And those early days . So, so having that time too to kind of, to rethink and reset was really helpful. It was definitely a rose. Yeah. In between wiping down the groceries with those Right. Special Clorox wipes. Oh, you did spray. Oh, we did spray. Spray, yes. Disgusting. Definitely a thorn. Okay. Those were the personal experiences. But thinking in that more business context, what do you think of as some of the professional problems and opportunities mm that COVID highlighted? Yeah, I think the one that comes to mind right away that of course we're still dealing with is that supply chain, right? Just the complete breakdown of the supply chain, I think even that sitting back being at home and kind of watching everything come to a halt? Fascinating for me. And kind of watching it work itself out, over these last years in some places, watching it continue to break down over and over again, continues to be something that I am, really, I mean, dare I say, compelled by. That's a big one for me. Yeah, I mean, on the supply chain. beyond the, you know, the toilet paper shortage I think even just in those early days when we're discovering that, oh, all of the surgical masks mm-hmm. Are made in China. I think there was only one company that was making them in the US mm-hmm And when we think about a globalized economy, we've got cars, we've got refrigerators, but they can't be sold because the micro chips that make them function are all in, you know, South Korea or in China and it's taking a while to get there. So it shows the way that globalization, means that even American made products are still dependent on worldwide, supply chain. Right. So we are all really interdependent and just, you know, as we're thinking about however positive it is from a policy perspective to talk about, American made goods, it obscures the way that Even American made goods right have foreign components. And I think, to that point, the complexity in one market doesn't necessarily translate to how we problem solve in another market or arena, right? So you're talking about, you know, global trade, global interdependence. But then when we think about certain, policy decisions or how we're handling certain elements of the pandemic, we're not thinking about it necessarily in that same way that we were thinking about, how the supply chain was set up. Cuz that's not, that's not how it's done. That's not how we do it. So, being able to be a kind of spectator of this experience has kind of doubled down on my interest in how complex problems are solved and how systems work. I mean, again, Buzz word- systems. Again, any, anytime it comes up, I'm gonna get excited. But how complicated systems are. something else that Covid affects, we are a consumer society. Mm-hmm. I mean our, that is what our economy is centered on. Mm-hmm.. And so we were all sent We're online shopping. Mm-hmm. and that changes things. And all of the businesses that are affected by that. We had all of this wonderful talk in the beginning, the essential workers. Finally we were appreciating the people working in the warehouses, working at the grocery store. And you had all of these companies say, yeah, this is valuable, let's honor them. I think if you check back with those people, you know, here we are in in 2023, I'm not sure that they feel they're still being treated as quite so essential. Right. I think that's one of the lost opportunities of Covid There was this moment where we could rethink what we do. Right. And we started it. Right. But then, you know, kind of, as we got sick of each other, in the house, we also got sick of being, appreciative Right of that work and the people who do it. Right. when you are weighing a public health decision against an economic decision, those two things don't always square with each other. And in fact, we were learning really quickly that those two things often were in deep contest with each other, in early days in the pandemic. So we had an opportunity, to kind of rethink a number of things around, the position that commerce takes up in decision making, in policy choices, in our society, et cetera. sometimes in the interest of public health and didn't kind of rethink the model, Those are really important questions. Where do we value things? And certainly, you can be reductive and say, money isn't as important as human life. But they aren't separate. Right. Your ability to pay your bills, to feed your kids absolutely that's related to money. But what was frustrating for me is that our public discourse was so limited. Mm-hmm. We went straight to, Grandma and grandpa are happy to sacrifice their lives so that the economy can go, mm-hmm without having a conversation with, well maybe there are other ways to do this. Maybe it's not a binary. Look, there are plenty of people who think universal basic income is a non-starter. It's a bad idea. It will lead to socialism. There are some who say, no, this is the wave of the future. This is what we should do. but if ever there was a time to talk about UBI, right, it would've been then. right. And we didn't have that conversation. We skipped right over it. Right. And went straight to how do we get people back at work? Really mitigation/ precautions be damned. Exactly. I would've loved to see those conversations. If nothing else for us to, make those decisions thoughtfully. which we skipped over to then get to the conversation, which I think was a really important one, like you brought up before about frontline workers, those who really did not have an opportunity to leave the workforce mm-hmm. because we needed them for the economy to keep going and I think what we end up with is sort of a bifurcated experience mm-hmm of the pandemic. For blue-collar workers, for those frontline workers, they were never home. Mm-hmm. You know, they were working, they were in masks or not. They were working when sick. They were the ones experiencing covid early. Hmm. Long covid. And they had a whole set of problems that went with that. And then there were the people who were in more white-collar jobs who were sent home. Mm-hmm. and who worked from home, who learned Zoom and all of those remote meeting tools. Right And who got to say, wow, I no longer have a commute or, look what happens when I can make my own food. I've just learned how to make sourdough. There was a lot of, bread making, somehow in those early days., you know, those people had a whole other set. And they talk about the isolation of covid and missing colleagues or the joy of being home. Mm-hmm. or whatever it is. I don't wanna minimize that particularly for families who were suddenly being both workers and, you know, educators and babysitters and all of those things. Mm-hmm. and in particular the way that impacted, women mm-hmm. or those who were primary caregivers. That's significant and we're gonna feel the impact of that for a long time, you know, for a decade- the years lost in women's productivity, and who has reentered the workforce? Mm-hmm.. Mm-hmm.. But those are two sets of Right And so the pandemic isn't a unifying experience. We all went through it, but we experienced it in different ways. So I think we saw this change, in the white collar space mm-hmm to remote work. I know there are lots of people who are, excited to go back to the office. I'm not one of them. I had an hour and a half commute each way to work. So being freed of that was, I mean, liberating, right? I mean, what, what was your experience? I had like multiple types of, experiences that I got to test out. between probably 2020 and then, 2022, being able to test run different kinds of, working scenarios and working environments. I will say that a remote or hybrid one is definitely favorable for me and my family. Yeah. I mean, I was teaching for some of that, and the first year was remote teaching, and that was a whole new set of experiences, like, how do you reach students? and there were ways that I, I was able to connect with some students, but it, it wasn't the same mm-hmm. and when we went back in person, I did feel that there's a difference. Yeah. I mean even just, you know, now when you and I meet, right? There's a difference between when we're having our meetings on Zoom and when we are meeting up somewhere, you know, at each other's house or a coffee shop, and I'm incredibly grateful that you and I can do those Zoom meetings. Right. But I know if we're going to be really digging into something bigger and creative, being co-present Exactly matters. Exactly. so I, I think we are seeing this tension where a lot of people are saying, I want hybrid. I want flexible. And, management is busy saying, no, no, we've gotta get back. Right. Let's go back to normal. Right. And again, we're not having that conversation of what parts of normal were good. Right. And what parts of normal, maybe we should let those things go? Because I think the question that maybe isn't being asked in all environments is who did the previous environment serve? And and in what ways? Right? And in the spaces where that is being asked I think that more flexible work environments are popping up and organizations are being more open to workers' needs. we know for us, a hybrid environment is what we need. Mm-hmm. for all the reasons that you've previously stated, I know that, an organization that I worked for previously, could also see the benefit of that. there was space for us to be able to be successful in our roles while also, being able to work remotely as needed. They were really focused on our output and our production, And so as, as long as we were kind of keeping up with our production, they weren't really that concerned about where that production, was happening. I, I would distinguish between sort of high trust places and lower trust. So cultures that have that high trust in employees can say, Hey, I trust you as a worker, as a human being, to do your job. To do it well. Whether you're doing it, in between doing laundry or whether you're sitting in your cubicle. Right. Places with lower trust say, I need to see you at your computer. Right. It doesn't matter if the output is the same I don't trust that when you go to do the laundry, you're still working, you're still thinking about it, that you are gonna make up that time, right? I think that we can look at a shift as well that is, is generational. Hmm. I think a lot of older workers are saying I need it to go back the way it was. and they tend to be management, just by virtue of where they are, you know, in life, in their careers. Right. And this is the way they know to do work. Yeah. and they wanna return to that. And younger people who didn't have that long-term socialization, who perhaps were less trusted at the office to begin with, are now saying, no, I like this independence. I wanna go back to something you said about trust I also wonder whether there is a relationship between trust and measurement because I, I completely cosign, what you're saying in terms of, a relationship between employer trust and the ability to let folks step out of being witnessed in their production. At the same time, I wonder too, whether part of the challenge in letting folks, move into hybrid, and flex, working spaces, is that it's harder to measure output in work environments that may have historically been more traditional. Right? There is a metric for how we measure it. We measure it in hours. We measure it in touch time. We measure it in meetings. We measure it in, certain other kinds of ways. A hybrid, or remote work schedule requires a shifting of how we measure output in a lot of different kinds of ways, or measure productivity maybe instead of output. Are you just talking about a system? Am I talking about a system? Of course. I'm talking about a system. We gotta rethink a system. What? Yes. Right? So a system that allows for these metrics, changing those metrics. Maybe instead of the hours, it's, these are the things I need you to do this week. And do you do them? Right. And you know, you said meetings, but I gotta say I didn't see that Covid changed the number of meetings like that it went down. I mean, no. Everybody was flush all the time. Right. Like, just because we can see each other doesn't mean we have to; we could do a phone call, right? No, no. We love this new technology. We've invested in Zoom. We're gonna be on camera all the time. so yeah, I mean, I think we do need to design these systems. But if we talk about it as, what is your job? Your job is doing a certain amount of things for your employer. Right. To go to quiet, quitting. Right? what struck me when I was reading this, oh, no. Quiet quitting. Oh my God. Well, what is the definition of quiet Quitting? Quiet, quitting is doing all that is required of you for your job, right. And no more. Mm-hmm. which, you know, quiet quitting is framed as this negative thing, but actually it's just doing your job. It's not doing extra. Right. And maybe the frame should be, All those extra hours you were doing before that was wage theft, right? Right. Like if you were, if you were doing one and a half jobs. But only being compensated for one. Then this new thing is actually workers saying boundaries. Mm-hmm. like, like we've been talking about for years. You know, you need to have work-life balance, but apparently we don't mean it. I think that describing people saying, I have a job that is nine to five, I'm gonna leave at five, describing that as somehow being a terrible employee, it's almost subversive. Well, maybe what we need to be doing is rethinking what work is and the place it is in our lives, and that is a massive cultural shift. We are a culture that has defined, who we are by our jobs. Mm-hmm. You know, you go to a a party, first question you're asked is what do you do? What do you do? Right. I remember when I had, my first child, I said, oh my God, if I'm not working, I don't have that answer Mm-hmm. And I had a friend who was a lawyer. I said, I don't have a cocktail party answer. You do. Right. Whether you're working or not, you're a lawyer. And her response was, don't worry. Rachel, you're not really invited to many cocktail parties. Oh, no. It's such a sad answer. It is. It is. But I think actually that, that's part of, why losing a job is so difficult. Mm-hmm. for men in particular in our culture, where your worth is, it's connected to your employment, to your employment, and to your identity as a man and your ability to provide, if we go back to those like cultural ideas. And I, I think we've been so centered on that and Covid opened up space at home, for a pause to say, there has to be more to life. Mm-hmm. and maybe my job shouldn't be my whole life. Right. And for younger people who hadn't already fully built their identity around it, there was more room. Right, right. American culture is about this productivity. Mm-hmm.. Um, but I do think we have to question how productive are we. Americans in general are less healthy than, people in other industrialized nations. and part of it is the hours we work. Americans have, if they're lucky, lucky, two to three weeks of vacation, a year paid vacation. And in Europe it's six weeks. Mm. and different kinds of working hours. And they're healthier for a lot of reasons. Mm-hmm.. So, you know, maybe we end up actually in better health, better able to show up at work, giving our all if we have time that isn't work. Right, right. it would also mean a massive overhaul, right? You can't just start by saying, okay, we're gonna go to the four day work week. The implications of that are profound. Mm-hmm. because if your output has so far of required, five plus days of work time in order to, successfully produce what is required of you, and you're now just gonna cut it down to four days and you're gonna leave at five every day, that's great for your health but it may not be great for the work that actually does need to get done. Right. So now how are we rethinking, how you structure your time? How are organizations supporting those employees in the structure of their time? How are they thinking about how job descriptions are written and responsibilities are, written? How managers support employees to ensure that we talk about it not in time, but in task. or some other metric. There is a, a whole cascade of implication. I think there are other, junctures where you could enter this, right? Where you could, again, speaking to the points of learning, from Covid. if you think about it like a supply chain, there are other entry points. You could start by addressing it from a task perspective, and then a time perspective and then see where that falls out. you mentioned that cascading, and this is, I would say, that lost opportunity of covid. we could have had a real rethinking of how we do things. It can't just be one business that says this because Right. You know, if your office is four days a week, but everyone else is five, then that's a problem. Or even if, you know, multiple offices are four, which days. And do you need coverage and how do you do this? And is it the whole business or is it portions of the business? And when do you have meeting days? but then also, you know, when we have hybrid work, what happens to downtown centers? Mm. Where restaurants are reliant on, people coming in for lunch. The, the economy there. what happens to housing? What, what are the benefits environmentally, if we are reducing, by 20% the number of cars on the road. Yeah. On any given day. There were real opportunities to think about restructuring our connection to transportation. Mm-hmm. to city revitalization, green spaces, what are those things? Mm-hmm. I think there's been a failure of imagination. Mm-hmm. there are a bunch of companies who looked and said, oh my gosh, we saved all of this money by not having, travel. Right. Maybe we don't need to send people across the country for a half day meeting. And. maybe we don't need as large an office complex, but again, what happens? From that, what are the, the repercussions Yeah. on all areas of the economy. And I think maybe we were just so tired, from all the stresses of Covid that we didn't engage Yeah. In those conversations. and I think that, that, that's a missed opportunity for us. Do you think some of it too might have to do with the fact that we didn't anticipate this thing called covid being as long and impactful as it was. I mean, I, can say out loud, I a hundred percent thought that there was going to be a wave, and then there would be a point in time that this thing called covid would be done. I sent an email to students, when we went home, for, lockdown, stressing the importance of, honoring, a lockdown and I, believe I said, We can do anything for three weeks. Um, and it was just so beautifully optimistic. mm-hmm. and, you know, three years later. Three years later, um, yeah. But you know, I think there was an abundance of conversation and an abundance of imagination happening in the early pandemic. But there was also this sense, for some, that there was going to be a time beyond that time, right? Why reinvent this system? Why reinvent this process? Why completely rethink this if we're just going to return to, the time before. I think about 9/11 and, you know, it changed everything, right? And we all just said, okay, from now on we are gonna take off our shoes and we're gonna be scanned. And there are all these other things that are, part of it that just have become normal. Mm-hmm.. And I think parts of Zoom of remote Right. And other things, you know, masks apparently were just a, a bridge too far. So, you know, what are, what are those things that we keep, what is part of the pre-Covid era and the post-Covid era? Mm-hmm. I had hoped there'd be more, um, apparently we're still shaking hands, which I thought was definitely gonna go away. but no, we're still doing that. So, I like it. I'm a hugger. I like hugs, but, you're gonna go in for the hug, but you're not gonna shake a hand. I think so. Yeah. Oh, Rachel. That's how I feel. Okay. That's how I feel. I guess, to each their own. Yeah. I mean, it's not logical . I get it. But, yeah it's all in the face. Yeah.. All right. so with that. With that.. Um, she'll shake your hand. I'll give you a hug, if you're comfortable. Right. so fist bumps are also fine. I think we should go with bowing. That's fair. I, I mean, like a lot of the world does that It's true. It's, it's not in my culture. It's not in mine either. But I can grow, I can, I can grow. Fair. I can just do a wave from afar too. That works. That's right. Before we go, if this conversation has piqued your interest and you wanna hear more about what we have to say, which would be amazing, stay tuned for other episodes. If you're listening on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, please rate and review us and give us some love. And if you're curious about what we do over here at NOVL or think we could be of help to your organization, check us out and send us an inquiry over at thinknovl.com. That's T H I N K N O V l.com. That's it for us. this is NOVL takes.