Power of Optimism

In this episode, we talk with Allyson Raines and David Sylvester- experts in the power of optimism- to discover the secrets to cultivating an optimistic view and the power that comes with this perspective.  

Transcript

0:08

Hey there, beautiful listeners. I'm Rachel Gans-Boriskin, one of the hosts of NOVL Takes. I wanted to give you a quick heads up. Starting this week, Sarah and I are going to be changing up our format, bringing new voices and insights into our conversations. While we are really excited about this week's episode, we want to let you know that our guests had a little technical difficulty and at times, the sound is a bit glitchy. We apologize and hope you enjoy their insights, nonetheless. Okay, let's get back to our regularly scheduled podcast.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 0:46

Hey, there beautiful people. Welcome to NOVL Takes, the podcast where we lift the veil on business as usual. Join us for our novel takes on business, culture, and the art of getting things done. I'm partner and principal Rachel Gans-Boriskin.

Sarah Patrick: 1:01

and I'm founder and principal Sarah Patrick. It's time for a new novel take. You've heard it before. The optimist sees the glass half full and the pessimist sees the glass half empty. So today we're filling our glasses to somewhere in the middle and figuring out how to talk about it. Or to put it another way, we're going to talk about optimism in the workspace and beyond, and what kind of roles optimism plays, and how we maintain it in challenging environments.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 1:26

Something that caught my attention recently was a series of articles about the importance of hope. People need to feel hopeful in order to accomplish their goals, and of course, this makes sense. If you think something can't be done, why bother trying it at all? But the articles seem to be suggesting something deeper. An optimistic disposition or at least outlook, and it occurred to me that I'm not really great at optimism. It's certainly not my default and while I think you, Sarah, have many strengths, I'm not sure optimism is high on your list either. So it seemed to me we needed to track down some truly optimistic folks to get their view on the subject, and hopefully they can help us see the fullness of our own glasses as well.

Sarah Patrick: 2:15

We're joined today by David Sylvester and Allyson Raines. David and Allyson, will you let the people know who you are?

Allyson Raines: 2:21

My name is Allyson Raines. I'm the chief of staff and operations at the National Democratic Training Committee.

David Sylvester: 2:28

My name's David Hale Sylvester and I'm'basically a professional hugger. Go around the world, hugging and high fiving people and I've been to 42 countries and all 50 states and hugged well over half a million people in the last 22 years.

Sarah Patrick: 2:43

Thank you both for being here. We are so excited to have you on the podcast. We're gonna dive right in. One definition I read in a fast company article recently suggested that an optimist, is someone who believes that tomorrow can be better than today and takes an active role in making it so. So, I'm curious out the gate, what does optimism look like to you, or what does it mean to be an optimist?

David Sylvester: 3:07

I believe that optimism is just believing that you have a chance. Just a chance. I think as long as I have a chance to do well, to achieve, to win that's it. I've lived on maybe and possibly, and potentially my whole life., And that's it. And can do a lot with that.

Allyson Raines: 3:26

I'd agree fully, David. You know, I do social justice and social change work. That requires optimism. It requires a belief that if you do things, if you engage and activate enough people, you can cause systemic change in whatever system you're working in. So I think for me, optimism is inherent in all that I do. And you can't not be an optimist in politics. You have to believe that change is real, that change is attainable, and that you just need to figure out the path and the direction towards the change you wanna see.

Sarah Patrick: 3:58

Allyson, you're speaking to the role that it plays in your work, right? I wonder if you can say more about that.

Allyson Raines: 4:05

Yeah, at the National Democratic Training Committee, in all political work, we are trying to make change. And that change spectrum really ranges across all social justice work. There are folks who do direct service to create change, believe in the optimism of supporting each other as just human beings and meeting our needs all the way down to folks who wanna work completely outside of the system to tear it down and build a new one, and are optimistic and believe that that is true and possible. I am also somewhere in the middle. I'm a work within the system gal. I think democracy is freaking cool and I wanna work within that system to motivate that system towards its best version of itself, where we are all actually engaging in shaping the way that our culture and our country operate. So for me in my work, it's all day every day. Now it comes down to like a smaller strategy piece of what I do in my current role around training people and motivating them to run for office and work on campaigns. But I think that same through line of all of this is the belief that something can and should change, and that if we find enough folks who believe in that same change with us, that we can actually motivate it. So optimism is all over the place. Despite it being paired very deeply with anger, it's a contradiction in me. I gotta be angry enough to feel that something needs to change and optimistic enough to actually work towards accomplishing it.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 5:33

It's interesting to hear you talk about that, Allyson, because I think, David, you come from a different place on this, that a motivation isn't necessarily anger, and your optimism isn't kind of within this change framework, although I think your work does change people. I wonder if you could talk a little about that.

David Sylvester: 5:57

Yeah. My my work is much more individual. My thing is not about, any kind of systematic anything. My thing is just like, Hey, listen, let's talk about you and your day. And what's going on and how we can make things better and how we can infuse some optimism and some hope into that to change your current situation. We'll worry about everything else later. Or let other people like Allyson and yourselves worry about the systems. You can worry about that later on. But right now what we're gonna do is, work on changing just the environment in our own brains. our outlook. And then from there We're gonna move forward.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 6:34

And, what would you say your medium of that is?

David Sylvester: 6:38

I mean, it just starts with a hug. And it also starts with my basic story. I mean, it's the fact that if I believe certain narratives about travel, about anything, I would not be traveling around the world, hugging and high fiving people going to remote cities Going to the smallest city in North Dakota, hugging the whole city hugging my way outta speeding tickets, hugging my way outta fights with motorcycle gangs, I would not believe that that's possible. So the mere fact that I exist and that my story is out there and I have pictures and all this stuff to prove it. Listen. I am walking hope. I'm walking sunshine. You can't deny me.

Allyson Raines: 7:19

Well, David, I. think the thing that connects us too is that it sounds like we share that belief in the infinite potential of humanity.

David Sylvester: 7:28

without question. But, know, my thing is just let's talk about this individual circumstance that you're in and let's try to figure out how to make this better. a lot of times when I share my story all of a sudden people open up to a lot of things and a a lot of stories about, abuse or about, you know, being sick or about whatever. And they just, they want a ray of hope. And I now have met so many people, I can offer a story or an anecdote that can provide that hope just for a moment, you know? I mean, you know, it sounds corny, but David Bowie said, we can be heroes just for one day. And if we can be heroes for one day, then we can be heroes for another day as well..

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 8:08

So, you know, I, I hear you talking there about how you stay optimistic. Allyson, it strikes me that we are living in pretty trying times, pretty tense politically. I wonder how you stay personally optimistic in these kinds of times.

Allyson Raines: 8:30

Yeah, it's actually very similar to what David is saying. It's all about the people that are coming together to do the work that my organization does. Those are the stories that motivate me, and I found this throughout my career, working with actual people out in communities and hearing them and watching them go through the transformational experience that is political activation. Like that is what gets me going. All I wanna do is turn people on to the power that they have to change their lives, their circumstances, and the power that they have. So it's very much about that personal connection. It's about hearing those shared experiences and stories, connecting that to people's self-interest and the moment that we're in. What keeps me going is when you see that learner go through that transformational aha moment. And I can still even get that very internally as a manager. I always say I have two North stars for my career. I wanna build things that last well beyond me. I don't want it to just be dependent on my effort, and I always wanna be in positions where I'm impacting other people and helping to shape and coach them to create the same impact I feel like I can make. I can exponentially grow if I'm investing in others. So even watching staff members who I'm coaching on that sort of culture and strategy work that I have with the chief of staff hat on, like watching them go through that and have those professional growth experiences, it's really those individual transformational moments that keep me engaged and help me keep track of the fact that it is constantly possible. There is never a lack of opportunity to transform folks and bring them more actively into the systems and more actively becoming themselves and who they wanna be.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 10:15

It's funny to hear you talk. It makes me reflect on, myself. I've had, I think two North stars as well, and they've been actually, my grandparents My grandfather was a lawyer and he fought for civil rights and he was somebody who actually changed the laws of the United States. And for me, for a long time, I felt like I needed to do that. Like I wasn't gonna be a success unless, I could point to something big in the world with, my name on it. And the other was my grandmother who had four kids and treated everyone she ever met with dignity and kindness and saw everyone and that mattered so much. And I felt in my own life, I might not be able to be my grandfather that wasn't given, but I had so much control to be my grandmother, to be that person who saw people. And so I, I feel like listening to the two of you, there's a little of both of that and, and maybe just maybe I actually have more optimism in me than I knew. So I, I wanna thank you for that reframe.

Sarah Patrick: 11:30

I'm marinating in this. I think the thing that's coming up for me is the opportunity of optimism each day. I'm really listening to the stories of personal motivation that come alongside optimism and it sounds like each of you kind of takes each day at a time. And I think part of the more realistic or pessimistic hat that sometimes I wear comes with thinking well too far in advance. And considering, multiple series of events And I'm listening to you all talk about optimism and I'm wondering if maybe it's a function of thinking in shorter sprints and not thinking necessarily short term, but thinking about things in sprints and thinking of things as opportunities when you think about it in sprints. That's all that I'm kind of sitting in right now.

David Sylvester: 12:21

So you said that you, you think ahead So that means that five years ago, 10 years ago, a year ago, a month ago that this great day that's happening, right now when you have your own business, where you have your own podcast, where you're talking to optimistic people, According to you, this day should not have happened. Probably would not have happened against your own projections. you're living an optimistic point right now. Like you're in it. So your thought process years ago, a week ago, whatever, in the past. It's just wrong. You should be an optimist.

Sarah Patrick: 12:57

Absolutely. It negates the possibility of my own. Yeah.

David Sylvester: 13:01

Right. So, I mean, you yourself and your smile in this moment right now is proof that there's something to be optimistic about..

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 13:11

David, you have always been, I think, an optimistic, irrepressible spirit, but the origins of hugs and high five comes from a really dark moment and I wonder if you could talk about that a little cuz it speaks to sort of the power of, optimism.

David Sylvester: 13:35

So I've been doing this ever since my friend got killed in the World Trade Center September 11th, and I did not want my friend to die on that day in that way. And so I wanted him to live on, and so I rode my bicycle across the United States and no matter where I rode no matter who I talked to, everybody wanted to talk about my friend or express their thoughts on 9/11 No matter what conversation I had, it ended in a hug and it ended in a high five and it ended in a moment of hope. And it made me think about hope and optimism and, my friend living on in another way. And, when people started telling me how I inspired them and what they were going to do I felt tethered to their good deeds One person said that they were gonna work in a community garden just cause of what I did. Another person said, they were going become a big brother. And when people would tell me these things, I, felt tethered to these good acts, so I wanted to do more. So I went on to ride my bicycle across Africa- from Cairo to Cape Town and in Asia, from Istanbul to Beijing, and two more times across the United States. And then my story, pivoted a little bit, and I switched vehicles. I started driving across the country and so I have done three 48 state drives across the country, delivering hugs and high fives. Because people need that hope. People need that. More so than ever, people need to see not just hope, but I think people need to see goodness and action on an individual basis. Again, I was never a group guy. I was never, a coalition type of guy. I am an individual And I think people need to see individuals in action. One person called me, the Black Johnny Appleseed, you know, just going out, just hugging and high fiving people, and I'm cool with that.

Allyson Raines: 15:23

Well, what I love about what you said too, in that David, besides the, 1980 song call out there in your own version but what I really love is you started to hit on how optimism infuses all that we do. And yesterday someone said something to me that you just contradicted in a great way of, they said, no one likes learning and growing. It's all something we know we need to do. And I was like, that's just not true. I like legitimately like it, like I wanna keep doing it. I think I have more that I can do in the world. I have more growth that I can be. We can all become someone that we all like better, And so I think that's been a theme for me hearing our conversation is optimism feeds so much of different things we do. Sarah, you earlier were asking us about our timeline, and I'm like, oh. It's like optimism makes me incredibly stubborn. I will see the problem and I will figure out how to fix it. It might take me a couple iterations. It might take a whole lifetime or a career. My name won't be on anything but that slow positive belief that if I keep trying, if I keep growing, if I keep working, it will happen. So it just, it infuses all that we do. You can't just be optimistic over here. It becomes part of yourself.

Sarah Patrick: 16:39

I'm hearing both of you talk about the relationship between optimism and action. And Allyson, you talk about the infusion of optimism through everything that you do. And I'm wondering if you see too a relationship between optimism and drive or optimism and industriousness. And you know, whether or not you see some sort of connection between those things.

Allyson Raines: 17:00

Yeah, I mean, definitely I have to have hope that if I keep going, even in hard moments, that it will get to another easier moment. And so I feel like absolutely, but we're also talking so much on a big global level of the way we think and view the world. And so I wanna just admit like there are times I'm super pessimistic. There are times where I'm just like pissed off and angry and frustrated. And there are times where it does feel like we're not gonna get there or we're not gonna get there as well as I wanted or as fast as I wanted. But overarching that belief that I can get there is still always there and it helps overcome those sort of hiccupy moments though I would love to throw this back cuz David, you seem like a person very much like me, who everyone always sees our happy go lucky sides. And the moment, big personalities, big happy people have those moments where we aren't in that way, it stands out huge. People pick up on it really fast and in quick ways, and I wonder if you've had that experience.

David Sylvester: 18:04

people do pick up on it very quickly. There was one time when I was really down and somebody said, God, if you can get down, then God help us all. And it really made me sort of almost check myself and realize what I represent to people We're all presenting something and I had no idea that my positivity meant so much to those around me. And and it didn't change anything, but it did make me change my posture in that moment and just stand up a little bit straighter and just realize, okay, for those around me, I have to project, like this moment is not beating me down so, much. And it took a little while. But like you said, you find a way, you find a way through it and I found a way through it because I've been optimistic so many other times and I just had to, turn the moment around. But I think a lot of times people think that optimistic people, like we never have a bad day There's always bad days. But you know, what am I gonna do? Mope about it? I mean, who wants to be around that person? Who wants to be around the person that mopes all the damn time? We all have caller ID now, right? And if someone is mopey, mopey, and it's always, oh my God, the sky is falling or whatever, you see that person's name on your phone, are you gonna answer it? No, you're not. You're not. Because who wants to hear that crap? But the friend They have problems, but when they talk to about their problems, there is an option, should I go this way or that way, or whatever. It's not a dead end, You'll take that person's call. You listen to that person because that person is always looking for a way to move forward. The person that just wanna sit there and turtle up, you don't wanna talk to that person. And the older you get, you're like, man, is this person ever gonna get it together? And so like why be that person? You know, a good friend of mine who's a, professor said, talking to her students it's like dueling miseries Dueling miseries That's not right. That's not right for young people to be sold a bill of goods of what they can't do in this world about where you can't go and stuff like that. There's so much that can happen. There's so much to be optimistic about, you know? Is the world perfect? No, not by a long shot. You know, but we have an opportunity to make it better.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 20:27

I hear the inspiration of it and thinking in, work contexts, team contexts, how you see particularly Allyson in your work, how optimism plays a role in teams and in team building.

Allyson Raines: 20:44

Yeah, absolutely. I think optimism might be one of my biggest strengths as a leader and being that cheerleader. And it doesn't mean that I'm not pragmatic and it doesn't mean that there isn't real talk. I have been called someone with very high expectations and a lot of directness and I pride myself on that. I think being clear is kind and I think making the implicit explicit is the best, most hopeful way of gaining the alignment that we need to do collaborative work that is inclusive of all of our experiences and mindsets. We all know both from just actually doing and feeling good work like that, but also the research. We need some of that emotional security. And I think to David's point, you don't get a lot of emotional security when everything is a downer. You kind of need a cheerleader to keep the motivation up and to keep things going and to keep focused on the hopeful outcome we're trying to achieve. I often say We live in a world full of tension at the National Democratic Training Committee where we are really trying to build our internal organization in the world that doesn't yet exist in the world as it should be. And we have to deal with and face the realities of what is the world we are currently living in. But we need that optimism. We need to believe that it's possible so that we have the motivation to work towards it every single day. And we all know that various different types of people on teams make up the strongest teams. So a couple of years ago, I had an experience where a staff member that I worked with probably a decade before, sent me a note just saying, You had faith and you convinced me, you gave me the optimism that I could actually achieve the things I wanna do, and I wanna send you an email to let you know I just got this job and I would've never even saw myself in a job like this if you hadn't given me that optimism for the career path I wanted when I was an intern. But so I think it's important in a leader, it's not always necessary. Leaders aren't always just the big boisterous cheerleader. We all have our place to be different kinds of leaders, but I do think if a leader is a pessimist, it brings everything down. It ruins motivation. It ruins productivity. Sarah, you said industriousness, and I'm like, whoa. That's really sticking with me of like, how much does my optimism motivate that continued action and continued plugging away at the change that I wanna see. So I think it's incredibly important in team-based settings and we all have a place in teams. I recently read something where it was like, pessimists are kinda great to have on your team. They're gonna highlight every potential risk and problem. So it's not to say that we all need optimism. We need a little bit of it all, We need all kinds of folks, but at the end of the day, I'm like, Ooh, as a leader, optimism is key.

David Sylvester: 23:39

I always talk to the haters. there's people that hate all my stuff and hate on the hugs and high fives And so whenever I have a trip that I'm planning or a project I tell my haters., I mean, I tell'em first because they point out the holes first, first and foremost and loudest. And you know, my thing is that if I have very clear, concise answers for all of the haters out there, then I know it's good for everybody else. So, I need the haters in my life. Love'em. Love'em.. when this started off 22 years ago, I didn't have to look for haters, they were all everywhere. But as I've gone on, the number of haters has just really, Dwindled. Now I only have two haters left. Hey Sarah. Hey Rachel.

Sarah Patrick: 24:22

That's not fair.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 24:23

Not fair. Not cool.

Allyson Raines: 24:25

and I do wanna say like, I think one of the I think this is gonna go with our silliness in this moment too. I think one of the best things I ever read about being an optimist is optimists are always late. We always think we can get so much more done in the short period of time that we have, and we believe it can happen. So we're always two minutes late. So you definitely need optimists on your team, but you need other folks too.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 24:51

The pessimists are the ones who set your watch five minutes fast so that you arrive three minutes early despite yourselves. You know, I think that there is something beautiful here too about the tension between systems and individuals, between short term and long term, and that it's in the union of these, in the tension that we have hope. you know David, you bring hope to people in their darkest moments. You've gone to these locations of mass shootings and hugged people in their darkest moments and it is actually that juxtaposition of love in the moment of hate that is so powerful. The very fact that there is optimism when things are dark, is itself, I think so moving for people.

David Sylvester: 25:49

when I go to these places, more so than anything those people need hope. And what I let them know is that my story was born of tragedy too and you wi ll love again. You will smile again. You will trust humanity again. And what better way to repair that bond, that rip in the fabric, that shooting or act of mass mayhem has created than, than hugging a stranger. Because really at that point, you know what act is more loving, more intimate, more communicative to anybody that's even just viewing us from the outside. Just a hug, just a, you know, and, and that's it. People need, need hope. I think that acts of legislation takes so much time and seems so far away and takes governments and protests and a lot of stuff to happen, but instilling hope can happen right away

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 26:42

one other thing I was thinking about and I've mentioned it on the podcast before, is a gratitude practice I started about a year and a half ago where, every day I write a page a single page of what I'm grateful for. And, people who meet me now will say, well, I'm not a grateful person I just couldn't do that. And I say, well, I didn't start a gratitude practice because I was grateful. I started the gratitude practice because I was angry all the time, and it's a practice, right? It's a gratitude muscle that you have to exercise. in the beginning it took so much to come up with anything to put on that page. And then, because I didn't wanna deal with that at night, I'd be going through my day going, oh, well that's a beautiful, flower. I could be grateful for that, or, that's a beautiful sunset. And I'll be grateful for that. And eventually being like, I'm so lucky to live in a place where when I drive over this hill I see this beautiful view every time. And that it was the practice that has made me more grateful and able to see those things. So what tips do you have for people to exercise their optimism, their hope muscles?

David Sylvester: 27:59

I'll say this, that I have gone to a lot of hospices to go hug people I've met a lot of people who were essentially on their deathbed, and none of them, none of them ever said, I wish I had bought that Mercedes when I was 20, or, I wish I, had more money What people talk about in their dying days are just, moments, moments of happiness. I was at a hospice in New Mexico recently, and the woman was just talking about the smell of fresh cut grass. the, the power of a smile, the random winks that she got in her lifetime, just, just the simple pleasures of life. And we were sitting down while she was eating and she just said, you know, another thing that I really like, just, just people spending time with me. And I asked her what a hug meant to her and she said, it means somebody loves me. And that's all anybody wants. All anybody that's on their deathbed wants one more day, one more day to see their loved ones, to see the sunshine, to feel its warmth, you know, to, to have a chance at basking in love. We all want the same things in life, Hey, listen man, this moment is beautiful. this very moment, is just awesome. Looking at the plants behind you, Rachel is great. Looking at your face there, Sarah, it's great. Looking at your smile, Allyson is great. Like that's, I'm grateful for that. That's, yeah, what I got to complain about, I'm hanging out with three beautiful women. That's awesome. And so it is, I think, it is the simple things, it is the simple things in life.

Allyson Raines: 29:31

David, I don't think we could have been a better pair for this cuz we reached the same conclusions in wildly different ways I am very logical. I'm very pragmatic. I live in the gray You don't have to be purely optimistic or purely pessimistic. You can have faith in yourself. You can believe in what you are capable of and cultivate that, like you said Rachel, around a practice of these things. So for me, a lot of it is, has really been born of convincing myself I can do it and been born from the confidence that I wanna cultivate to make the change that I wanna see. But not only is that same sort of like lovey dovey, I believe in it all right now and right here that David is sharing. And we need both kinds of people. So if it's something that that folks who are listening don't feel comes natural to them. Like David and I are sharing, it does come somewhat naturally to us. I've definitely had to pair that with some logic and some reflection and some belief in myself that, no, I'm optimistic because I believe in me. I know I can work hard. I know I can do these things, and that wasn't something that that was born overnight. I had to cultivate that confidence and that belief in myself. And so I think it's totally okay to live in the gray. To, to live in that tension of, it's not all roses and sunshine always, but I need to believe that the roses and sunshine are possible. So I think that that's really how I've tried to cultivate it and the tips that I could provide is, it's okay to say it's not possible right now, but I think it is possible in general and what's my pathway to get there? the path may not be clear right away, and that's okay. It's okay to say I might be failing in this moment, but I know that this failure will get me closer to the actual solution. I think it's that tension that I embrace that helps actually cultivate optimism right

David Sylvester: 31:23

I think you do have to cultivate things. Like this is work. This is work that Allyson and I make look easy, because you've been doing it for so long,

Allyson Raines: 31:33

It's a choice. we can choose to engage and be brought down by all the negativity, or in my case, you can choose to roll up your sleeves, believe it can be different, and work towards that change.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: 31:46

Well, you've given us a lot to think about and hopefully we can adjust our outlooks. Sarah, we've got work. In the meantime, we wanna thank our guests, David Sylvester and Allyson Raines. To learn more about them and the work they do, you can check out their full bios on our website, thinkNovl.com and before we go, if this conversation has piqued your interest and you wanna hear more about what we have to say, stay tuned for other episodes. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, please rate and review us. Give us some love.

Sarah Patrick: 32:23

And if you're curious about what we do over at NOVL or think we could be helpful, check us out and send us an inquiry over at thinknovl.com. That's T H I N K N O V L.com. That's it for us. Shout out to everyone who helped us make this show. This is NOVL Takes.