The View from Gen Z Part II

In the second of our 2 part series on Gen Z, we talk with Nate Hillyer, Kelsey Klaczyk, and Shen Gao, three young professionals about the way the pandemic affected their careers, their thoughts on capitalism, and how they see their generation shaping the future of work.

Transcript

The View from Gen Z Part II

[00:00:00] 

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: Hey there, beautiful people. Welcome to NOVL Takes, the podcast where we lift the veil on business as usual. Join us for our novel takes on business culture and the art of getting things done. I'm partner and principal Rachel Gans-Boriskin.

Sarah Patrick: And I'm founder and principal Sarah Patrick. It's time for a new NOVL Take. This fall, we're focusing on the shifting nature of work. In our last episode, we spoke to three young professionals who talked about their career paths, their approaches to work and values, and how they see work fitting into their lives, both now and in the future. If you missed it, you should check it out.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: On today's episode, We'll continue the conversation as our guests discuss the way the pandemic affected their careers, their thoughts on capitalism, and how they see their generation shaping the future of work.

 I'll let our guests introduce themselves.[00:01:00] 

Nate Hillyer: My name is Nate Hillyer 

Kelsey Klaczyk: My name is Kelsey Klaczyk 

Shen Gao: my name is Shen Gao 

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: Nate is an assistant account executive at the Castle Group working in PR. Kelsey works as a financial aid counselor at Northeastern University and is a part-time student in the Master's of Professional Studies in digital media at Northeastern and Shen, having worked in the tech industry, is currently taking a career break, focusing on her mental and physical health, and taking care of her home and pet Corgi.

We recorded the interview separately and have brought our guests into virtual conversation with each other.

Sarah Patrick: While everyone in the world has been affected by Covid, Nate, Kelsey and Shen are part of a population cohort whose early careers were defined by the pandemic.

Nate, the youngest of our guests, graduated college in 2021. He spent his last year and a half of college navigating remote learning, and then entered the workforce that itself was still at least partially remote

Nate Hillyer: it was a really [00:02:00] strange time to start a career. Um, you don't, I didn't necessarily get to meet all of my coworkers for a very long time. Um, a lot of it was remote. 

Sarah Patrick: Still, like many of us, Nate adjusted and sees benefits to the way the pandemic changed the structure of work. 

Nate Hillyer: I think that we've as a whole become a little more accustomed to that. And I think being able to adapt around that and knowing you know, if, if you don't have to have a meeting about something you don't necessarily like, it could be an email.

Um. And if. You don't necessarily have to go into the office five days a week. Um, that's also. That's something that I think is important to people right now. Um, I know I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm really grateful i, I have kind of a hybrid schedule. Um. So I get to go in, go into the office two days a week um, and then I work from home three days a week.

Um. And it's nice to have that balance of you know, not entirely isolated throughout the week but then it's also not dealing with the Boston commute five days a week. So, um, I,  I think there really is a happy medium for everybody. Um. It depends on, of course, the industry, the person, the employer. Um. But yeah, I mean, I, I think that's something that I've really valued is, is having that, that hybrid flexibility.

Sarah Patrick: [00:03:00] Like Nate, Shen's career was shaped by Covid. 

Shen Gao: I got my real, like first full-time job with benefits in February, 2020.

And then the pandemic hit and I was like, okay, time to go home. You know? Um.  So I think that that's a good question where it's like, you know, I, I think like because of the pandemic, a lot of people are affected and, you know, remote work is so common now, especially in the tech industry. So I think when I think about flexibility as well, I kind of think about, well, you know, can I.

Can I just stay home and do my work? Or kind of is there, can I do like a balance of both? Where I work from home or go into the office and kind of divide that time where I see fit? So I think in that sense, definitely, you know, the location of work um, it's something that I have thought about.

If I have a doctor's appointment or if I, you know, need to leave work early for some reason, I think, you know, I'm, I would like that, you know, a company that I work for would kind of allow me to kind of pick my own hours in a way. Kind of where, you know, if I get the work done, um, what's expected me and I'm doing well, then I can kind of, you know, work [00:04:00] whenever. Um. So I think that would be ideal. Um. And so yeah, that's kind of how my partner is too. You know. Sometime he wakes up at like 11:00 AM and then, you know, he'll get on with his day and then kind of, um, do what he needs to do. And he's you know, he, he does really well. So I think for me, um, that would be, that would be ideal as well.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: While Nate and Shen note the ways Covid changed the structures, location, and routines of work for the better, Kelsey who graduated college in May of 2019, sees the negative impact the pandemic had on young professionals' self-confidence.

Kelsey Klaczyk: A lot of young professionals, uh, struggle with the imposter syndrome. Um. And that's, you know, kind of our biggest, not our biggest issue for, but I think a lot of us have a lot more power than we think we have and a lot more knowledge and experience and, Just a lot more potential than we think that we have.

 I think that a lot of us feel very stunted, like we are not doing what we should be. We don't have enough jobs under our belt. We don't have enough years. We don't [00:05:00] have enough experience. 

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: Still Kelsey thinks it's important for young people to remember that they do have other skills.

Kelsey Klaczyk: I mean. We have all the experience. It's not like we haven't been working.

A lot of people have found experience in other things that aren't necessarily just jobs because the pandemic has been so, so upturning, you know, that, you know, they find experience in applying for jobs that, that's experience in of itself with the way that the world works. Um, And just learning on their own when they weren't in a position so many people took time to learn other skills.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: In some ways, Kelsey is suggesting that young professionals can take the experience of Covid to shift their outlook a little. To identify and value skills they have from outside of the work realm. Shen also experienced the shift in her perspective due to the pandemic.

Shen Gao: I think just the pandemic itself.

I was just thinking earlier, I feel like it really kind of changed me in a sense [00:06:00] that it taught me to value, like what's important. You know. My health is important. Spending my time with my family is important important. Being able to have time off to visit my, my parents and my siblings in China is important.

And I feel like I didn't place that much importance or as much importance on these things prior to the pandemic. But then I feel like, you know,  the pandemic really made me feel like well, you know, there's this virus circulating that could like wipe me out at any point. So why would I pay so much attention to the grind? To like working so hard? To all these things that will not make me happy at the end of the day?

So I think that's kind of, that's kind of where I'm at mentally as well.

Sarah Patrick: While the pandemic certainly made many people reevaluate their priorities, for young people there was already a great deal of questioning. Early experiences of watching their families cope with the 2008 recession, combined with apocalyptic climate change headlines, and a divisive political environment had shaped young people's [00:07:00] perspectives long before Covid 19 brought the world to a standstill.

 When Kelsey graduated college, she was risk averse.

Kelsey Klaczyk: Something that I factored in very heavily, you know, especially with the job market being so turbulent as it was in 2019 and has continued to be um, throughout the last few years. It was really scary as a new grad to not have a set creative prospect, even though that's you know, what I would've wished. Um.. It was seemed safer to choose this option where I knew I had something going on than to put myself out there. Knowing that I had the talent.

  I wasn't necessarily in a position. I'm sure I could have been in a position, um, where I could have taken on a more creative role. Something that was more fitting to the work I had been doing. Um. But, you know, I was definitely in a place financially where I wanted to make sure that I was making smart decisions.

 I still kind of think, well, what had happened if I had jumped into the creative industry like, Some of my peers and you know, [00:08:00] they, a lot of them took a lot longer to find positions um, in the creative industry. A lot of them took a lot longer to find positions that they were able to stick in. Um. A lot of them went through layoffs because of just the turbulence of everything um, because they were in a creative industry and unfortunately, creative industries, while they're nec necessary, um, are sometimes the first to go.

Um. It is a little bit scarier. So, you know,  I think that knowing myself and knowing, you know, how, how I like to think things through long term and, you know, make sure I'm making the right decision financially, you know, supporting myself. I think that I definitely made the best decision long term to line myself up.

You know,  I am still working towards those goals of being in the creative industry and I'm still doing side projects and still you know, testing all those creative muscles. Um. But right now I'm in a place where I'm supported financially while I'm establishing those goals and making a more stable bridge [00:09:00] to walk over instead of skipping and hopping over the stones in the river.

Sarah Patrick: Nate witnessed something similar.

Nate Hillyer: I think trying to balance where your passion is, what you're good at and what will pay the bills is something that I know a lot of people struggle with.

A lot of people my age are struggling with. Um, and I honestly do see a lot of my colleagues kind of just doing the first thing that comes along to them. It's not necessarily what they love to do, it's just you kind of have to take what you can get. Um, and it's, it's tough. It's tough out there right now.

Grocery prices are higher than they've been in a long time. Um, SNAP benefits just ended. Um, it's, it's tough and Rent keeps increasing. It's tough

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: While earlier, generations might have been looking for jobs in which they could stay for decades. Shen, like many her age, is more transactional. She wants a job that provides financial security.

Shen Gao: I feel like I don't see myself as the kind of person who stays at a job for like, I don't know, like more than three years, let's say. One, [00:10:00] because I feel like there's always, like, for me, maybe it's be based on my experience of where I feel like after a couple years I realize I wanna do something different, so then I leave and I go try something else.

So for me it's, I guess I'm not like super concerned with job security. Um, But only in the. But maybe to an extent of like, you know, there are smaller companies that maybe just got funding and maybe there's like 10 people. you know, working there might not be as secure as working at a startup of let's say 300 people.

So for me, I would probably gravitate to like places that are like more secure and not super, like, extremely risky in that sense. But um, you know, obviously I want to work somewhere where you're not gonna get randomly fired as well. So I think there's a fine line to walk there too. Um. Especially right now in the tech industry, there's been, you know, just recently a lot of like layoffs and things like that where people are kind of like, oh, you know, I got laid off for no reason. I didn't know this was happening.[00:11:00] You know, I would, 

I would not want that to happen to me. Um. And I think that's kind of part of the reason where I kind of want to start my own business and do something by myself where I'm not tied to anybody else. 

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: Our guests were thoughtful about the state of the world, and one word kept popping up again and again

Kelsey Klaczyk: capitalism 

Shen Gao: capitalism

Kelsey Klaczyk: Capitalism 

Shen Gao: capitalism

Kelsey Klaczyk: capitalism 

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: and not in a good way.

Sarah Patrick: And even when we didn't hear the word, the critique was loud and clear

Nate Hillyer: I think younger people in particular are right now kind of looking at the state of work and the state of how everybody's feeling right now. And I mean, there, there are questions in terms of, you know, how can we prioritize being people throughout the week, um, and also advancing your career and getting everything you need to done.

 These there are things worth questioning. Um, in terms of. Productivity versus, um, general wellbeing and.

Sarah Patrick: Kelsey sees her generation as saddled with the negative consequences of a capitalist system. 

Kelsey Klaczyk: It's like when we talk about being handed somebody, being handed over a, a big problem. It's kind of like that. We're waiting and waiting and waiting. And we're working and we're working and we're working. And we know that [00:12:00] one day, we're gonna be handed down the capitalism problem and we're gonna have to figure out, okay, how, how are we gonna dismantle things? Are we gonna dismantle things? Hopefully we don't double it and pass it to the next. You know, I don't think that that's our goal.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: While, Kelsey feels strongly that things need to change. She understands that these conversations are challenging and at times frightening for older workers.

Kelsey Klaczyk: For people who have been in capitalism longer, who have been in the working industry longer, they're playing into a different system than people who are just getting into the working world.

We've seen a lot of social shift, a lot of career shift, a lot of industry shift and capitalism shift. We've seen a lot of people be very angry about how capitalism treats its workers. We've seen a lot of changes in the younger generations that aren't as much in different generations, you know? 

And so that's important to see as well. That I think a lot of it is [00:13:00] just people who have been in in industry for so long that they can see that things are changing.

But for them, that's scary because that means a change from everything that they've ever known. It's just a very big scary change because we are also changing over the amount of people in the workforce from different generations.

Um, so, you know.  It's kind of a multifaceted, um, topic for sure, and I think it definitely warrants uh, more discussion.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: Shen is taking time off from work right now and it has given her time to think about the way society works. Still, she's aware that her ability to have this time is itself a luxury most people don't have.

Shen Gao: My partner he's, you know,  he's supporting both of us right now. Which I feel really, really lucky because, you know, if I was living by myself, um, or you know, if I really had to bring a consistent income, I wouldn't be doing, you know, trying to do the business right now. I wouldn't be taking a career break right now.

I'd probably be at some other job that I don't fully love, you know, just [00:14:00] to cover the bills. Um. So I, I feel really, really lucky in that regard. But I also feel like, like it doesn't have to be this way.

So I, in that sense, I kind of think about, you know, work kind of sto like shackled to capitalism a little bit.

Sarah Patrick: For Nate, many of the norms of work in capitalism are themselves problematic and exclusionary. 

Nate Hillyer: I think, honestly, something I, I did struggle with is I, I thought I had to kind of turn Queerness off when I entered a workplace. Um, I, I think I associated with being unprofessional um. and that's not what that is. Um. And I think that that is kind of an issue with a lot of professionalism, is it, it hinders people. It's a lot of times very inequitable. Um, And yeah, it's.

It's something I, I still navigate. I'm still trying to navigate um, being a queer person in a professional space. Um. Sometimes it's hard to feel like you belong there. Um, but it's, it's, It's tough. And I, I don't know, it's, it's something I'm still kind of trying to figure out. And I don't feel like I have a full fleshed out idea of what the right way to be a queer office worker is, but um, it's something I'm kind of still trying to figure out.

Sarah Patrick: [00:15:00] Nate Sees professionalism, at least how it's often defined, at odds with authenticity.

Nate Hillyer: I think when I entered the workforce, I, I had this idea that I had to be this kind of drone. Um, I couldn't really show up as a person so much as a, a worker. And I learned very quickly that that's not really how it works. And actually everybody benefits when you show up as your authentic self. 

Um, But it, it's something I, floundered with at first. Um, I think that, that's something that, that was really important to me- um, authenticity. 

And I, I think especially in a field like communications, you, you want people who communicate like you to some degree, um, and who you can be your authentic self around. Um, I don't think people wanna show up to work and just shut off who they are. Um. And shut off the feelings you have throughout the day.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: Nate also sees authenticity as linked to diversity, equity and inclusion, or DEI.

Nate Hillyer:  I'm really lucky and I think that's, that's why in my job search, um, really finding authenticity in those you know, little website blurbs about diversity, equity, inclusion, like, You know, was this [00:16:00] written in 20 minutes or was it really given thought and was it written by somebody who really cares about these things?

Um. And will the workplace really reflect what's in here? And I, you know, I, I brought up the, I brought up the, um, our, our equity statement and I think three times throughout the interview process. It was like this, it just really stood out to me, and it, it made me feel like I was entering a place that um, isn't what I, I had pictured for the traditional office, the traditional professional workspace. Um, and I, I really appreciated that. I, I think it's, I'm, I'm really lucky at Castle to um, work with a lot of different kinds of people um, who also value, um, who value that diversity and value beyond diversity, inclusion. Cuz I think diversity without inclusion in the workplace, um, it, it, it, it means very little.

Um, I think putting people, having people, hmm, what am I trying to say? Placing people in, what am I trying to say? I think I, having people represented without fully having them feel heard is um, something I've seen um, from a lot of my, a lot of people my, my age, a lot of people in my generation. Um. And I, I think it's, it's kind of an increasing need is that, you know, you, you need somewhere that um, values all three parts of D E and [00:17:00] I

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: Nate is part of a generational movement that is changing the culture of work. Kelsey also sees their generation as fighting for fair systems of compensation.

Kelsey Klaczyk: In some of my first positions because I didn't recognize, you know, what it was like to be taken advantage of what it was like to be taking on so much work and not necessarily being compensated appropriately because I didn't know what it looked like to be compensated appropriately. But now we're all having these discussions with each other and saying, oh wait, you make X amount of money working in a similar industry. I'm only making y. You know, why is that the case? You know, I'm doing X, Y, and Z more than you are in your job description. Why the hell is that happening?

 And it's the support on the other side of them saying, no, you're so right. That shouldn't be happening. That's not fair. You should take, take all this information [00:18:00] that I've given you and try and use it to leverage yourself a better deal.

And now that's what a lot of people are doing, and companies aren't happy with it because they consistently were able to pay younger workers less and compensate them less because we just didn't know. You know. We didn't know what it felt like to be compensated appropriately, so they just banked on the fact that we would just take whatever we could get and not ask questions, and not talk to other people and not see, wait a second, you're being shortchanged too.

This isn't cool. Not to mention that. With the increase in technology in the workplace, there is that shift generationally where some people who have been in the workplace for years and years and years aren't recognizing how to utilize the new technology when it shifts in. So that's extra weight on our shoulders [00:19:00] and extra responsibility for the younger generations that you know, companies aren't necessarily seeing either.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: Kelsey notes that the exploitation of people's labor sometimes starts before they're even hired. This means the demand for appropriate compensation starts in the job hunting process. 

Kelsey Klaczyk: But . Luckily now we're I'm seeing so many more people in my age range who aren't settling for lesser compensation.

You know, this, this I, this. Range of like. Being able to say, okay, I'm in. I'm looking for a job. I'm not even gonna consider any postings that don't talk about salary. Like. That's the first step of saying like, you know, screw these jobs that aren't gonna even tell us how much they're going to compensate us for our work.

We deserve to be paid appropriately for our work. If you're not even gonna bother to tell me if, how much you can provide to me, why am I gonna bust my ass to get you a new resume, [00:20:00] a new cover letter, you know, an updated application in your application server, you know, all these, all these hoops that you want me to jump through, only for you to tell me that you're not gonna compensate me enough after a five round interview?

You know. People are getting tired. We're . We're just done with it.  With the way that, like the fluctuations in the job market, people, people don't wanna guess if they're gonna be able to provide for their daily wants and needs. And companies aren't happy with that. But people are very steadfast on this. Of, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna work for a com, a company that I don't know if they're going to compensate me.

I'm not going to do all this for you if I don't have the promise that you're gonna support me in the end. 

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: For those in Kelsey's generation who are taking a stand for a better system. There's also an awareness of the way, the relationship between employers and employees has changed in the last 50 years.

Kelsey Klaczyk: Other generations, they had a promise that if you worked for a company, for a certain period of time, [00:21:00] you were gonna get a pension. You know that the company was gonna support you back.

We don't have that promise anymore. We don't have a promise really, of anything other than what's in our contract. And even then, companies try and skimp out on that half the time. You know? So. People are being a lot more cognizant of how much a buck actually costs in today's economy and how much they deserve for their work.

You know, people.  People are starting to recognize that, you know, It's to live outside of just working, you need to be paid appropriately and you need to be compensated to really have that opportunity and that space for self-care. You need the compensation too. You know, so it's. It's all really attached to each other in a direct way um, you know, where companies wanna keep us working and working and working. And don't wanna pay us enough. So it's, it's fighting back against that and just trying to like consistently stand on that soapbox, um, and not waiver on that and support other people who are doing that too.

Sarah Patrick: As Nate and Kelsey [00:22:00] seek to reform work, Shen is ready to take it a step further.

Shen Gao: I feel like definitely in the sense of like, I think people are, well, I don't know, maybe just from my experience, but I feel like more and more people are trying to find happiness as well and not focusing so much on what they can produce or what kind of job they can have, or like what you know, corporate ladder they can climb next. So I think there's a trend of moving towards wellbeing and moving towards like participating less in the hustle culture.

 I, I feel like I would love for universal basic income to be a thing. Because like, why are we born to work?

Right? Like, that's something I've been thinking about, like, why do we have to work? If you wanna work, I think that's great. You know, you've found something you love, you wanna work, that's great. But if you don't wanna work, why do you gotta go find a job that you hate? Just so you can you know, pay the bills.

And also for folks who are you know, maybe more creative like artists, you know, I think there are a lot of. It's like, it's, it's hard to turn, earn, earn money, you know, [00:23:00] being an artist or being like a small business per owner, where, you know, if you didn't have to worry about money as much, maybe you could be more creative and you, maybe you could try, you know, different things and maybe you could just be, you know, I don't know, more of a human just enjoying life on this earth. You know?

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: As we listened to our guests speak. I couldn't help but think about the early days of my own career. While I certainly had some of the same concerns and frustrations, it never occurred to me that it was possible to radically change the culture of work. Let alone the organizing principles of capitalism.

Whatever complaints I had, I bought into what those in charge were telling me. It may be unfair, but that's the way it is. I understood my job to be sort of suck it up and adapt. And I think this is what makes this generation both inspiring and scary for older workers. . We agree with a lot of what they have to say, but we have trouble even [00:24:00] imagining how the world they want could function. Not to mention where we fit in that view. 

Sarah, I wonder for you as a millennial how this conversation resonated.

Sarah Patrick: I find this conversation wildly inspiring. These Sentiments feel familiar to me, as does the frustration with some of the systems and structures that these young people are finding as they enter the workforce. However, I think a notable difference I think a notable difference is that these conversations are ones I remember having over drinks or at dinner with friends and others of my generation. Who graduated in 2008 and soon thereafter, and, not in the workforce.  Not in the workplace. There was lots of conversation amongst ourselves, but still an overwhelming sense that in the workplace the workplace you worked hard and got along, particularly as a new recruit.

I'm surprised and excited that this generation seems both more vocal and more prepared to effect change. And I hope that millennials, more familiar and comfortable with these ideas and more, more, uh, and I hope the millennials more familiar and comfortable with these ideas, will help, instead of hinder, any potential change as they move into positions of authority themselves.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: The future is as always, uncertain and uncertainty can often make [00:25:00] us afraid. Still, we hope that you, our listeners, having heard the thoughtful voices of Nate, Kelsey, and Shen will have a little less fear knowing that the future is in such good hands.

Sarah Patrick: We want to thank Nate Hillyer, Kelsey Klaczyk, and Shen Gao, who are generous with their time and insights. To learn more about them, you can check out their full bios on our website, thinknovl.com.

Rachel Gans-Boriskin: If this conversation has piqued your interest and you wanna hear more about what we have to say, stay tuned for other episodes. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast, please rate and review us. Give us some love.

Sarah Patrick: If you're curious about what we do over at NOVL or think we could help you or your organization, check us out or send us an inquiry over at thinknovl.com. That's T H I N K N O V L.com. That's it for us. Shout out to everyone who helped us make this show. This is NOVL Takes

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