49. Sales ≠ Sleazy: Rethinking the S-Word with Bernie Anderson (Soundtracks)

In this episode of It’s Not About the Money, we’re joined by Bernie Anderson—missions leader, podcast host, business consultant, and certified Growability coach. Bernie helps us reframe our ideas around sales and fundraising, showing how sales, when done with integrity and generosity, can become a transformative experience for both the giver and the receiver.

We talk about why fundraising isn’t a transaction but a transformation, why great fundraisers are great listeners, and how donor alignment is better than manipulation. Bernie shares wisdom on identifying donor personalities, avoiding burnout through authenticity, and how storytelling—done honestly—can drive partnership fruit.

If you've ever felt awkward "making the ask" or have been burned by manipulative sales tactics, this episode will feel like a breath of fresh air. Bernie reminds us that fundraising is discipleship, that rejection isn’t failure, and that there’s no such thing as “sacred vs. secular” when you're doing Kingdom work.

📚 Books + Articles

1. To Sell Is Human by Daniel H. Pink
   – A modern, research-driven take on how everyone is in sales, whether they realize it or not.
2. The Spirituality of Fundraising by Henri Nouwen
   – A short but powerful read framing fundraising as spiritual formation and invitation.

🎧 Podcasts

1. The Psychology of Fundraising: Part 1 and Part 2 (Counselor Panel)
   
   
2. NATM Episode 29.5 with Bernie Anderson
   
   
3. Global Trellis Podcast
   – Co-hosted by Bernie Anderson and Amy Young; supports cross-cultural workers in soul care and sustainability.
4. Growability Podcast
   – Focused on leadership, business development, and nonprofit growth; co-hosted by Bernie.

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Get help today! Visit www.provisiofundraising.com

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Transcript

Heather Winchell: [00:00:00] What if fundraising's, not just about the bottom line. What if it is about who you become and what you believe in the process? And what if the journey is bigger than you and your ministry? 

Andy Brennan: Welcome to season four of, it's Not about the money. Join us as we examine elements of ministry fundraising through the unique lens of personal formation.

Let's dive in. Okay. Welcome back to our miniseries on soundtracks. In today's episode, we'll explore the soundtracks that we have around the S word. No, not that S word. The notoriously cringey word sales. And perhaps sales isn't a cringe word for you, but if we use it in conjunction with fundraising, it certainly seems to take on more of that tone.

But what if there is a way to hold these two concepts together, [00:01:00] sales and fundraising, and actually find a benefit? Our guest today is bringing decades of experience in ministry and the business world to help us reframe our ideas around selling. So Heather, would you do the honors? 

Heather Winchell: I will, Andy, we are joined today again by Bernie Anderson, and I say again because he actually joined us in season three on a recap for the episode that we had with Amy Young, I think it was episode 29.

We'll link it in the show notes for you guys. That's right. And fun fact, he and Amy actually currently co-host the Global Trellis podcast together, which is super fun. Yeah, we should link to that too. Yep. We will link to that because it's excellent. Um, but that is just one of the many hats that Bernie wears.

He also serves as the director of Cross-Cultural Partnerships for Growability is a certified growability consultant. Co-hosts the Growability podcast and is a regional director for a global mission organization called New International. Bernie, we are certainly grateful [00:02:00] that you have made time for this conversation amidst the very full plate.

I am sure that you have. So thank you so much for joining us and could you just kick off this conversation by sharing a bit with us about your background in business sales and ministry? I. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you for inviting me back. It's, it's, it's always fun. Uh, these are the, these are the fun things that we get to do, right?

Mm-hmm. Is have, uh, fun conversations with interesting people. So I'm really glad to be here for that. Uh, yeah, I, uh, I, I have been, I do, I've done, I've had three or four career changes in my life at this point. Nice. So, uh, we, uh, uh, my wife and I have been together for 35, almost 36 years now, this year. And then we have two grown children.

Uh, we are, uh, uh, one of whom is married, and so we have a daughter-in-law as well. But, uh, we, uh, uh, started off and we're in, uh, pastoral ministry for about 13 years. Uh, then we shifted to [00:03:00] global ministry. We lived in Mongolia for about eight years. Wow. And that was kind of a place where I began to really explore what is this concept of business and, and ministry and, and even beginning to explore some of the ideas of sales and fundraising and, and that sort of thing.

And then, uh. Came back to the States in around 2014 and worked for several years with a large international nonprofit where I was doing major fundraising ventures, uh, with high dollars. And this is again, where kind of the sales conversation really began to sink in deep, uh, was was there. And then for the last six years I've been both working with Growability as a business consultant and a nonprofit consultant, as well as, uh, working with new international and helping global workers really thrive and live out their calling.

So it's, it's, it's fun and diverse and sometimes a little crazy, but, uh, it's, it's been good. 

Andy Brennan: Nice. What part of Mongolia? 

Bernie Anderson: [00:04:00] We were in lumbar. We were in the, the capital city. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, eight, in fact, we're gonna, yeah, we were there eight years and are about to go back for a trip for the first time in 11 years.

So, uh, oh. We're, we're doing that later on this month and are real excited about it, so. 

Heather Winchell: Well, I've heard that Lum barter has changed a lot. I'll be curious to know. Yeah, 

Bernie Anderson: yeah. 

Andy Brennan: What are the things you're gonna try to accomplish or try to see while you're there? 

Bernie Anderson: Well, interestingly enough, we are gonna be working with some friends of ours who we've worked with, we've known since 2003, who are currently, she's a a nonprofit executive, uh, with a nonprofit there.

And then another, her husband, uh, actually runs a business. 

Andy Brennan: Hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: And, uh, we're gonna actually be having a conversation around growability and business development and what does that look like in the Mongolian context, and trying to take some of the tools and resources that we use, uh, here to where we, they actually were meant to be used globally.

So we, we are gonna be working with them on some [00:05:00] business development things, uh, as that connects to their own mission and, and, uh, vision for the kingdom. So. Awesome. Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Bernie. Yeah, we're excited. That is really exciting. Very cool. So in the conversation that I referenced that we had with you last year, you made a comment that I found intriguing.

You said sales is one of the most generous things you can do because you were helping someone solve a problem. Tell me more. Help us unpack that. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. Uh, I'm happy to do that. Yeah, it's, it's funny, Heather, because that is something I had to learn. Um, when having come out of the world of ministry, there is this mindset about sales, and that mindset is, it's ick, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, I mean, we think of sales and we think of, I mean, the used car guy, the, the, the guy that, I mean, I don't think people go door to door anymore, but you know, we used to have people that would show up back [00:06:00] in the day with, Hey, here's a Kirby vacuum cleaner, and you could like, get your house clean or whatever.

And, and we kind of, it, it, I think the mindset of, oh man, this just makes me feel like I'm trying to get money out of people or trying to get something. So that, for, for me, you know? Yes. And, and the, the reality, the thing that I learned, and I particularly learned this after we came back to the states and I began doing, um, kind of major donor nonprofit fundraising, is that this is a sales job.

Andy Brennan: Mm. 

Bernie Anderson: But it's a sales job in the sense, not that I'm trying to just get money from people, but I'm wanting people to see that, hey, the value that we are providing for you is actually more worth more than the money that you give 

Andy Brennan: to Mm. 

Bernie Anderson: To help, you know, do this thing. And, and really if, if you go and think about sales from that [00:07:00] perspective, back all the way up and think about the vacuum cleaner guy, right?

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: Um. The, the, if the vacuum cleaner guy shows up and says, Hey, this vacuum actually will make your house cleaner, this vacuum will actually help you not get sick as much because it's going to get up all of the, the, the, the dust mites that are making your allergies go crazy and, and it's gonna make your life better.

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: And if I don't have that, then hey, you know what? It may be worth me giving you some money so that I can actually not be sick anymore, not have any more allergies. Right. 

Andy Brennan: Mm. 

Bernie Anderson: I think it's important to realize that when we come. And again, we can talk probably later about how this connects with donors Yeah.

And how that works out there. But when, when somebody offers a solution to a problem that I'm having, I am [00:08:00] more than happy to give them money for that. Mm-hmm. Because I don't wanna have that problem anymore. And so, and from that perspective, I see sales as, as actually being generous because a good salesperson is, is going to have that mindset.

And if somebody doesn't need, I mean, if somebody already has four good vacuum cleaners and they don't have any allergy problems, then you trying to sell them a vacuum is A, they're not gonna work. Or b, you're gonna have to be manipulative and, and mm-hmm. And icky mm-hmm. To do that. Right. Right. Yeah. But, but the fact of the matter is, is that a good salesperson isn't gonna manipulate.

A good salesperson is going to give. And, and so it's the, the generosity of that, that to me is, is uh, just a huge mindset shift. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: And one little side piece to that as well is that it's also ultimately about relationships. Yeah. A salesperson who is good at what they do is able to come alongside someone [00:09:00] and genuinely care about them, right?

Mm-hmm. I mean, they're not gonna necessarily have a long-term, you know, let's go hang out at, get a, get a coffee down the street or whatever. Right? 

Andy Brennan: Right. 

Bernie Anderson: But there, there's going to be a relationship and a rapport that is genuine and, and real and not fake. Mm-hmm. And, and so I, I think from that perspective, seeing sales as generous really changes.

It changes everything. Yeah. Uh, in my mind. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. There was a definition that you introduced me a while ago, Heather, that. At its core sales was just simply moving somebody from one place to another, or one position to another. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. I think that actually came from the book by Daniel Pink to sell us human.

Andy Brennan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And I would also say that great book we, oh, you know that book? Okay. Awesome. Yeah. Great book. Yep. Um, we don't have vacuum cleaner salesmen here in Colorado, but I do see a lot of solar panel salesmen. Do you get that door to door? Yep, we do. I absolutely do. Yeah. But an interesting point [00:10:00] about, uh, the ROI isn't balanced from the, the seller to the buyer.

It seems like the, what you're purchasing is like internal e eternal investment, and how do you actually put a dollar on that? Mm-hmm. Um, and it strikes me also that this is like sales, but without the commission. 

Heather Winchell: Hmm. Yeah. So 

Andy Brennan: there's no, there's no pressure. To get it done. You're not earning it like you're just, you're, you're, you're funding a, a purpose and, and it's not up to you to make it happen.

Heather Winchell: Hmm. Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. Well, and, and, and really that is a, is an excellent point. And, and here's why. When you're, when you're moving this into the world of donors, it's really important to remember that donors are going to give where they're interested. I have this theory, and I've never actually practiced, put this into practice, but, but my theory is that the best way to fundraise is to get a bunch [00:11:00] of people who are in fundraising all in the same room together.

Andy Brennan: Hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: All of those people then saying, oh, my, my work is whatever church planting. And then the other person over here says, my work is, uh, we, we raise money to do development work and get fresh water for people. We do water, water for life or whatever. Mm-hmm. Right? So you got church planting and you've got water for life.

I don't know if there's are real organizations or not. But anyway, sure you get the point, right? Mm-hmm. So if you put all of these people in the same room together there, I guarantee you the church plant person has gone into a fundraising meeting, gone into a place where they say, Hey, this is our ministry.

This is what we do. We plant churches. And that person's like, yeah, but I, I actually am really interested in. Water. I think that's a really, like having fresh water, clean water in places that don't have that. Yeah. Clean waters. That's really what my passion is. I'm not really about church planning. And likewise, I guarantee you [00:12:00] the water guy has been in a meeting and they're like, Hmm.

I just, I really only give to church planning. Sure. You need to cha you need to come together and, and realize that donors are gonna give to the thing they're interested in. So when you find donors who are interested in the thing that you're doing, you're not manipulating them. And your pitch, so to speak, is, here's our ministry, here's where we're making a huge difference in this piece.

Yeah. Of God's kingdom. And that donors, when you get the right one, they're like, uh, yeah. That's, I, I want my money to go there. Mm. Um, it is something I want to invest in. Yeah. And, and I know you're doing good work and I know this is, this is where I want my money to go. This is this thing that I'm wanting to do.

So I, I think that is a really important point, is to. Uh, if someone is interested in another kind of ministry and not your ministry, be generous. Send them to somebody who's, Hey, I don't do that, but I know someone who [00:13:00] does. I recommend this organization or this individual, or this person over here. Yeah.

Who's doing that kind of ministry? You guys should connect. That's great. You know? 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. We're 

Bernie Anderson: all on the same team. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Well, and I love that because it does not carry a sense of scarcity, you know? Mm-hmm. It carries a sense of, wow, I'm, I'm free. Th this isn't my hoard. I'm, I'm going to pass this along. And honestly, as a person, I like, love, like relish, making connections between people that I think will find mutual benefit.

Andy Brennan: Mm. It 

Heather Winchell: is one of my favorite things to see that happen, and I connector. I am a connector. Yeah, for sure. It's like on my LinkedIn profile. There you go. But yeah, Bernie, I think actually that's a really intriguing idea. What could it look like to connect and network with other people in support based ministry to the end of.

Connecting them to the people you know that they don't know. Yeah. And yeah, that's really powerful. I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about that. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. And it makes sense, like we're asking every, we're asking our donors to be generous. Why? [00:14:00] Why can't we be generous as well? It's a great question. Yeah. That's fantastic.

I love that. Yeah. And I love also that it should never feel manipulative. It should never feel like you're trying to shoehorn somebody into like, actually, actually my vision does fit your, your goals and names. Well, if it doesn't, it doesn't. That's right. Yeah, that's right. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. And 

Andy Brennan: it's okay. 

Bernie Anderson: It's okay.

Yeah. Everybody's different. Everybody has different interests and passions, and, and that's just how God's wired us, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, I, I think that is, if we can, if we can be, I feel like if a fundraiser can be generous in their connections and their, in their generosity, they're gonna receive that back, right?

I think that's a kingdom principle of, I mean, give, and it shall be given unto you, press down, shaken together, and running over. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. Right. And 

Bernie Anderson: I, I think as we are generous in whatever way we can be, the generosity is just, it's gonna come back our way. So I, I think that is an important principle for us to remember.

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Interesting that that's what [00:15:00] you, that scripture is what you just quoted, because I don't think anybody has brought that scripture up yet in the podcast. But this season, that's the second time it's come up, which is really fun. 

Andy Brennan: That's awesome. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. It also just makes me think about how much it must please God the father, to watch his children just being so generous and giving of what they have.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. On in all the ways, right? Like as just a parent with, you know, my children, watching them be kind and generous and sharing with each other is such a beautiful thing, right? So I can't even imagine like God looking down on these people that are like. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. Looking 

Heather Winchell: to him to provide for them, but then being so, 

Andy Brennan: yeah.

Giving my kids ask me what I want for my birthday or for Father's Day, and I said, I just want you to be nice to each other. 

Heather Winchell: Yes. For real. 

Andy Brennan: Right. 

Heather Winchell: You're a you're dad. Right. Just get 

Andy Brennan: along. Just get 

Bernie Anderson: along. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Thankfully my children are both grown and they're now kind of each other's best friends.

Yes. And it's beautiful. Yeah. Like, it's so fun as a dad to see Uhhuh, my two adult children, just, [00:16:00] just loving each other, you know? And uh, watching out for each other. It's really good. Yeah. So I get that. 

Andy Brennan: I feel like I'm on the cusp of that, but we're not quite there yet. Yeah. Well, can we dial it in a little bit more, I don't know if you have any more to say about this, but how would you say that sales principles can be helpful in support raising.

Bernie Anderson: Yeah, that's a, I think a great, a great question. I, there's a couple of things that come to mind really. Um, I, I think the first one is, is one of the best sales principles that I've ever come across is to think of a sale as not transactional, but transformational. 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. Hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: And, and in our world, that is actually not a hard thing to do.

Yeah. Uh, if you're selling, you know, vacuum cleaners or whatever, I, I don't wanna keep coming to vacuum cleaners, but, you know, you're selling a product, right. And if you're selling that just, Hey, you give me money, I give you [00:17:00] product. Well, that's fine. And sometimes that works. But the experience is so much more when on the sales side of things, you turn it into more of a transformational experience.

Right. And so I think that when, when you go into a, a, you know, whatever, an Apple store or go into someplace where, where it's actually, hey, this is, this is quite the experience that I am having right now. It's life changing. Right? Or if you go to a restaurant where, where you just have this, this over the top exquisite food, the service, fantastic.

You have this transformational experience. Those are the ones that we remember. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: And, and so in, in fundraising, I think it's the same kind of thing, except we're, we're already like on the transformational side of things. So if we think about our asks, not as a transactional thing, Hey, you know, please support me, please.

Uh, may I have some more? You know, that kind of like sort of, uh. Uh, [00:18:00] mindset, no, this is gonna change your life as much as it's helping us to change others' lives, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, it's a transformational thing. So that shift in thinking is, is really important to me. 

Andy Brennan: Um, how can we, how can we, as the recipients, how can we lead them towards transformation?

Bernie Anderson: You know, I think that there are ways to do that when we are focusing on how I think the focus has to be on how this ministry is actually changing, not only the people here, but how your involvement, your partnership with in this ministry also is going to change even the way that you think. So I think that, and it actually goes to another point that I, I think is important with sales principles is, is recognizing that, um, like the best salespeople listen really well.

Andy Brennan: Hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: In fact, I think it was, uh, it may have been Daniel Pink who [00:19:00] said this as well. Um, but, but that the, the best salespeople aren't pushy, but they listen more than they talk. 

Andy Brennan: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: And when you do that, when you give a donor the opportunity to, to tell their story, to tell, why am I interested in this particular ministry?

To ask questions? So many times, and I've had this happen to me when I've had people come to me and say, Hey, I want to tell you about my ministry. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: They sit down and then there's the spiel, right? Yep. And, and this is why like, sales feels uncomfortable because they know I'm having to give the spiel. I know they're giving the spiel, 

Andy Brennan: right?

Bernie Anderson: And they give the spiel and then it's like, okay, you know, you've read all the right books and you've done that The way they tell you to do a better thing to do is to sit down and ask questions. Yes. Make sure that those so true. You know, come up with a list of [00:20:00] questions before you come up with a written spiel, you know?

Um, that's gonna actually be transformative because. I, as a donor, am now gonna feel listened to. I'm gonna feel like, oh, like you don't just care about you and your ministry, you actually care about how this is gonna impact me. Mm. Mm-hmm. You know, and donors love that. Like they, they want to make a difference.

And, and so I, I think that's a big one 

Andy Brennan: in my mind. Yeah. That's huge. One of the things that I tell our clients often is focus on, try to make it a, a conversation and not a presentation. Yeah. Right. Because it can be so easy to get into, uh, again, your spiel and sometimes even the donor's expecting that, Hey, gimme your spiel.

Um, right. I think also in, in our line of work, we, we, we send a lot of people in the educational field, and so I'll say, well, think about it in terms of like teacher talk time. You're not lecturing you. You need to balance the talk time. If you [00:21:00] feel yourself getting into that mode of just educating, educating, educating, you need to peel it back and just ask questions.

Yeah. That's fantastic. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: There's a, uh, a another piece to this that, uh, this could be a whole nother podcast probably, but, um, part of the training that I give for organizations and, and, uh, both for-profit and nonprofit is the disc disc profile training. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like understanding your audience. And again, this is all like, I mean, in sales it's all about the customer.

And in, in fundraising it's all about the donor. Understanding your donor's personality is, is so like. Life changing. Yeah. It's so important because if you understand that this person is a high D where they are, Hey, I wanna win, I wanna get to the points, you're not, you're, you're, you're gonna be able to have a conversation that's going to appeal to their personality, [00:22:00] whether it's a, you know, whether they're like a, a, a d, a dominant type personality or an i an influencer storytelling type personality or, you know, whatever.

And, and so like that is also, uh, I, I think, uh, an important part of sales, a important part of fundraising. 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: Because you're really, it's about them, not about you. 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: Uh, it's not about my product. It's not about, it's not about the features of my product. It's the benefit that my product will provide to my donor or to my customer.

Mm-hmm. And, and that is transformational. When you begin to shift your thinking on, Hey, how is this, how is them giving money to my project going to benefit? What's the benefit they're going to receive? 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: Which actually leads to one other sales principle that's really important here, and that's storytelling.

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. I mean, 

Bernie Anderson: that's where, if you can tell the story. They're now a part of, um, that's, that is absolutely going to drive, um, [00:23:00] results and, and being effective in, in fundraising and, and sales. Yeah. In both. Mm-hmm. So I, I think that's also really important. Mm-hmm. 

Andy Brennan: So, so someone, let me play the devil's advocate for, for a listener who might be saying, well, Bernie, that Bernie, that doesn't sound very efficient.

It's hard for me. Mm-hmm. Like, how can I, I don't, I have a limited amount of time. How can I get to know everybody's personalities and actually like, craft something, like, can I just like, set it and forget it and, and just let it go out there? 

Bernie Anderson: That's a great question. Um, and, and here's what I would recommend to someone who's asking that question.

Learn. I, and again, I I think DISC is great because it's simple. Yeah. And it's, it's quick and it's effective. Um, you don't have to get into Enneagram or some kind of big, deep, like psycho psychoanalysis of your, of your customer, right? Mm-hmm. If you can understand, [00:24:00] uh, just the four basic, kind of big buckets of personality types mm-hmm.

You can then understand, um, exactly how you need to cater what, and usually you can tell within a few minutes if you ask the right questions within a few minutes of a conversation, uh, most people can get a pretty good idea of where this person is. Perfect. No, but I. It is actually something that's possible to, to sort of ascertain in a relatively short period of time.

Mm-hmm. And, and so while I do think I agree, you know, and then there's some people, like my, my mother's super hard to, like, my mom is, is I actually to this day don't entirely know which personality. She's, she's like all of them, you know? So there are people that are hard to read, right? Yeah. Like, that's true.

But I mean, in the training that I give, I, I kind of do a quiz at the end, you know, if someone comes in and is like, okay, so, uh, tell me about your, tell me about your ministry. [00:25:00] Well, that's probably a D 

Andy Brennan: mm. 

Bernie Anderson: That's probably someone who wants to just know the facts cut to, they wanna to the chase win and they wanna say, is this gonna, you know?

Yeah. I mean it's a lot of times you can tell versus the person who is, oh man, how are you? How are you doing? How's your family? Like, let me tell, well, that's probably an s right? That's probably someone who's more like, and then there's the person who's like, oh my gosh, did you see that billboard on your way in that had the frog on it?

The frog on the billboard's hysterical, isn't it? Like we did Well that's your, I, you know what I mean? Like there's just are ways that you can kind of gauge a conversation and, and almost. 

Andy Brennan: Sure. 

Bernie Anderson: Get, or at least get an idea. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: And, uh, and, and it's just, that's a skill Yeah. That you kind of have to learn.

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: And I, I think it's a really important skill to learn, and it's why some companies pay, uh, you know, $10,000 a pop to do their, you know, to train their sales people in disc training, right? Mm-hmm. So, um, wow. Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Well, and Andy, I guess to respond, you didn't ask me, you asked Bernie, but I'm going to respond.

I asked everybody. Yeah, 

Andy Brennan: [00:26:00] yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Um, it, it sounds like, you know, somebody could invest in some, some awareness of these different personality types or whatever, but beyond that, I actually think it's as simple as being present and listening Well, 

Andy Brennan: yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Because if you're just present, it's good and listening, well, you're, you're going to pick up on the things that seem to excite people, the things that seem to affect them.

Yeah. I mean, 

Andy Brennan: yeah. Focus on as a, as a transitional step, focus on asking good questions and then just listening to them. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: Yes. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: Yes. Good. I think it's better to craft good questions than it is to craft a good presentation. 

Andy Brennan: Ooh. 

Bernie Anderson: Uh, particularly in fundraising, I would, I would spend more time crafting.

Your questions and, and really coming up with good questions to ask donors, potential donors, and let your presenta, I mean, yeah, we do this and we do this. I mean, it's not hard, right? Right. But asking really good questions will allow you to cater how what [00:27:00] you do actually impacts their lives. So yeah, I would just add that.

Heather Winchell: Well, and questions enable people to access awareness of themselves, that and what they care about. Yes. They might not even know coming into your presentation, you know, but, but you asking them questions kind of like awakens them to what they need to know or what they desire to see. Mm-hmm. So I think that's great.

Great counsel, Bernie. Yeah. I think that this makes a lot of sense, but what if we have some people that are listening, some ministry workers that are hesitant, maybe even reluctant to embrace these principles or this way of thinking. How would you counsel them? 

Bernie Anderson: Uh, I, I think that's a really good question and.

I, I think first of all, like I, I think one of the reasons people are hesitant to apply sales principles, one is, is just fear of, I think they're just a, a don't be afraid to be rejected. Mm-hmm. Like, [00:28:00] no, I had a, a pastor tell me this once, and I, I've, I just was so appreciative of this. He would ask, ask us to do something as pastor.

He would say, Hey, could you, could you, would you consider doing this for our, our church? And then, and then he would follow that up by saying, and remember no is a gospel answer. 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. And I 

Bernie Anderson: always just appreciated that, that, that, oh, like I can say no. Yeah. And it's okay. Um, and, and so that's freeing for those of us who basically like to agree to anything and bear, you know, saying No, I, like, I don't wanna say no to anything.

Yeah. I wanna take all the opportunities. Right, 

Andy Brennan: right. 

Bernie Anderson: But. Understanding that no is a gospel answer. If somebody tells me no, that really is not a rejection of me. It just means their passions and their interests lie somewhere other than me. And if my mindset is, Hey, this isn't about me anyway, then it's okay.

Mm-hmm. Hey, where are you interested, where, where would you give And can I [00:29:00] connect you again, going back to kind of that generosity thing at the beginning. Yeah. So I think that fear of rejection is, is good. I, and this is a big one. I actually, Amy and I just did a podcast on this not all that long ago.

Mm-hmm. And it's that oftentimes we as, uh, in the Christian world, uh, especially a lot of people in the, uh, in the nonprofit space or in the, in the, the, the international worker space, um, just can have unhealthy views of money. So, hey, let's sit back and it could be a bigger conversation of saying. Hey, let's talk about money, and I'm sure you guys do this a lot on this podcast.

Mm-hmm. As far as just having a good view on money and having a healthy mindset about money, both from the sense of. Obviously being good stewards and you know, that sort of thing. But, but really oftentimes it's, [00:30:00] it's this more sort of mindset thing of our poverty mindset of, of saying, Hey, I'm, I just, it's not about the money, you know, oh, I don't need, I need, I don't need any money.

I just need your prayers or whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and it, and it's true, like praying is great, but you also like have to live and you have to eat and you have to support your family and you have to support your ministry. And, and so having just a better mindset that money is a tool and God is there, there is nothing wrong with having money that God, all of it's his Yeah.

All it's, it's all God's money. And that tool is there for us to use for his kingdom. I, I just wrote about this recently. I had this, I was reading something and I had this sort of flashback memory of this time when I was a child and I was probably, I don't know, seven or eight years old. I had for whatever reason earned a couple dollars, right?

Like I think I'd been pulling [00:31:00] weeds in the yard or something and maybe my dad gave me a couple bucks. Or actually, probably not that it was probably, I was at the neighbor's house and was weeding her yard. Mm-hmm. And she gave me a couple bucks, right? So I had these $2 and you know, maybe it was $5, whatever, it wasn't very much.

But I'm in the dime store in the little town where we lived in, in Northern Illinois. And I'm like, Ooh, I want this little trinket. I don't even remember what it was. Some piece of junk trinket at the dime store that I was gonna just spend my money on. Mm-hmm. And get this thing right. And I remember my dad saying, no, we're not gonna get that right now.

And here was my mistake. I said to him, oh, but it's my money and I can do what I want with it. Don't ever say that to my father. Right. I just recommend, nobody's saying, noted, that's my dad. You know? And because he immediately said, no, it is not your money. And no, you cannot do whatever you want with it.

Well, at the time I'm like, what do you mean [00:32:00] this is not compute? Sit right here in my hand. Right. Yeah. Yeah, man. What a great lesson in stewardship though, because you realize as you get older, oh yeah, no, none of this is mine. My time, my money, it's all a gift. Yeah. And, and whether I have a little or whether I have a lot.

Uh, it's a gift. Yeah. And you know, I think that money mindset is really, is really important. Yeah. Um, and I think that's why hesitance to apply sales principles are like, ah, man, like just an unhealthy view of money can really impact that, a healthy view of money. And I think impacting sales principles are great because then you're thinking generosity, you're thinking stewardship, you're thinking all the right things.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If you, if you do that well, yeah. So, 

Heather Winchell: yeah, I actually heard that episode that you and Amy did. I actually texted her about it because I thought it was so funny when she was talking about, you know, the scenario where. You all go to dinner and they're like, let's just all split the bill evenly, but Oh gosh.

Yeah. One person's [00:33:00] ordered like appetizers and a drink and yeah. So, um, we'll definitely link to that episode that you just referenced and then I think it was season two that we had the counselors on and we talked about the schools of money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So we'll link to that one as well.

But yeah, I think, I think that is an excellent point. Bernie, 

Andy Brennan: would you say that you should actually like, verbalize and like free your donors up to say no to you?

Bernie Anderson: I think there are times to do that, yes. Um, I don't know that I would necessarily say that's true every time because the danger I think is going to the other side. I mean, yes, you can say no to me, but I also think that you can, I, I think it's a fine line because you can kind of give an out if someone is like.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I don't wanna, I mean, there are some people that, I'm not saying you have to do the hard sell on, right? I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that. But there are some people who may not entirely get what Kingdom giving is really [00:34:00] all about. And, and I mean, so from that perspective as a fundraiser, you're actually discipling people in a very real way.

Yeah. I mean, you are helping people to understand that, hey, this is something that's worth giving to. And if you're not giving, if this isn't something you've thought about. You should really think about it. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, if you say no, then it actually is fine, and I'm still gonna be your friend.

Hey, do you wanna be on our list? You know, I, I recommend everybody have a mailing list, and I'd recommend that people send out an email to their whole list that's very short and very sweet, and where they keep that kind of in front of them. Uh, uh, I do it on a weekly basis. Mm. For, for our ministry work.

Mm-hmm. And, um, sometimes people will decide they don't want it anymore. No, that's fine. I don't care. Let's not again, know is the gospel answer, and if that means unsubscribe, you unsubscribe, but, but staying connected with them, even if they say no. Yeah. I think is really important. 

Heather Winchell: Mm-hmm. 

Andy Brennan: So, yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. [00:35:00] What is one key strategy to get people to move from one place, whether that be mentally, emotionally, philosophically, to another, or maybe like a question that mm-hmm.

That can be helpful in bringing that awareness we were talking about for people. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. I, I think that the big issue for the fundraiser is looking for ways to see, I mean, you see yourself, you're a bridge builder, you're not a beggar, right? Mm-hmm. You're not begging for money. 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: You're building bridges.

And so that actually goes back to what we just, what we just said a minute ago, um, that, that it's a discipleship process. So in my mind, the key strategy is to think about, alright, I'm gonna put this, I think, I think you're, I think the listeners here will understand what I say when I'm, I say this, right?

This person really should be giving to the kingdom of God for this, this, this, this ministry. Right? Hmm. [00:36:00] I think we've all, we've all been in that place where it's like, there's this, there's this potential donor or church or, or missions committee or whoever, and they are like. They're a perfect, they're a perfect customer.

Like in sales world, you would say, okay, this is my ideal customer. So in this case, they're, they're an ideal donor. And if you have an ideal donor, your job now isn't to beg, nor is it to m manipulate, but it's to build a bridge. So how are we gonna build a bridge? How are we going to get a, a, a connection between what we're doing and this donor?

Now sometimes you can just throw a log across the creek and you can just kind of run across that bridge and it's done. Right? Yeah. Like, there you go. Yeah, we got the bridge belt. It didn't take very long. We're here. We're there. Right. Recognizing that sometimes bridge building takes longer. 

Andy Brennan: Mm. 

Bernie Anderson: And, [00:37:00] and the ROI of the longer built bridge, most of the time is it's, it's gonna be bigger, right?

Mm-hmm. Um, and so that takes time. It takes building trust, it, it takes building, uh, building, uh, rapport, trust. Um, like all of that has got to happen. And sometimes that will take longer. Hmm. I find that working with churches, it just takes, uh, it takes several times of meeting, of conversations, of getting coffee and hanging out and like building some rapport and some trust.

Um, is, is is really important. So the sales process is actually a, a, a process. So in, in one sense, and this, this sounds a little reversed, but what I, when I do coaching and when I do training and sales for nonprofits as well as for for-profits, um. I tell them, you need to, we need to build a sales [00:38:00] process, right?

Which I'm actually doing this right now for a large, I mean, it's a almost billion dollar plastics company that I'm working with at the moment, and we're building a sales process with them and we're almost, we're almost finished with the project. Building a sales process isn't, the focus isn't necessarily focusing on, Hey, what is our purpose here?

Now you, you know your purpose. You don't really need to focus on that. What you do need to focus on is the process. Hmm. You'll get to the end goal, but you need to develop a process and focus on what that process is going to be for. Your donor. Mm-hmm. So in some cases, the process may be a cup of coffee and ask a few questions and the bridge is there, right?

Mm. You've got the log across the creek Yeah. For others, Hey, we gotta cross the Mississippi here. Right. We're gonna be able to do a lot once we cross the Mississippi, but we gotta cross the Mississippi. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's gonna take more [00:39:00] a, a bigger process and a more like kind of thought through process than, um, than it would for the creek in my backyard.

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: If that makes sense. 

Heather Winchell: What I appreciate about that is that we're, we're always talking about how, you know, fundraising is not a formula. There are definitely key principles and a framework that you will find. I mean, a bridge is going to have some key components, right? Yes, yes. But they're going to look very different depending on what you're trying to go across, right?

Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: They don't all look the same. Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: So I think, I think that's helpful. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. And, and one other strategy in light of that too, Heather, is this, I, I think about, uh, going back to, to the rejection question that we talked about earlier, I think that if we can reframe rejection as just alignment, like are we aligned here?

Andy Brennan: Mm. 

Bernie Anderson: Building the bridge, you've gotta align. Everything's gotta align for 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: Especially if it's a big bridge 

Andy Brennan: has to be plumb and 

Bernie Anderson: if the [00:40:00] alignment's Yeah, exactly. Exactly. If the, if the alignment's not there, then this may not be the right project for us. It's like, hmm, I don't think we're gonna get this alignment.

It's, it's not, and I've had to do this when, again, when I was doing major gift, major fundraising for this nonprofit and, you know, making asks that were, you know, anywhere from 50 to $150,000 a pop. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: That's a big ask you, that's a big bridge. Yeah. I mean, and, and you have to make sure things are in alignment before you start making those asks.

Mm-hmm. So it's not rejection, it's not, oh, they hate me. No. It's an alignment issue. And either you can be aligned or you may never be aligned, and that's okay. Mm-hmm. Go on. 

Andy Brennan: So what if somebody's just kind of casually listening to this podcast while they're doing something else and they, they just hear, I need to have a process.

But then they think, well, why do I need a process if I have the Holy Spirit?

Bernie Anderson: A good question. Good question. [00:41:00] And, and I am, I am always an advocate to listen to the spirit. Um, but at the same time, uh, I do not think that, that we can go through life. Just on a whim. Right. And for most people, uh, there's a few exceptions, but for most people, we have to, we, I mean, if you wanna get from my house to your house in Colorado mm-hmm.

I live in Greenville, South Carolina. Mm-hmm. You live in, in, in Fort Collins, 

Andy Brennan: Colorado. 

Bernie Anderson: Fort Collins, Colorado. I love Fort Collins. Yeah. It's a great place. If I wanna get there, I could just start driving and hope that, yeah, like I, I'm, I hope I'm going west, but I may not be. I, I'm gonna maybe get there eventually, but it's just not a great plan.

And there's a lot of like wasted time and space and all that. No, but if I have a, if I have a map, if I have a plan, if I have [00:42:00] A-A-G-P-S or a compass where at least I know I'm going west, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um, then, then sure, I'm gonna take some pit stops along the way. Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling, I'm feeling like I wanna go see, you know, the big ball yarn in Kansas or whatever.

I can go do that, but, but I still need a process for getting to my destination. Yeah. And, and I just would say to someone who, uh, yes, follow the spirit. Yeah. Go see the ball of yarn or whatever, but, but make sure there is a process for, uh, getting to the final destination. It's kind of the whole thing where, you know, if you.

Sure you can shoot an arrow and then move the target to where the arrow landed and say, Hey, I hit my spot. You know? 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: But if at the end of the day you really have a goal that you need to reach, a fundraising goal that you need to reach, then you sure better have a plan for getting there because, uh, it's, it's a rare person that's gonna just be able to land there.

Andy Brennan: It, it's a good point [00:43:00] because sometimes you have an indefinite amount of time to get funded, but a lot of times you don't. You have a narrow runway, so you could just kind of stumble forward and get there eventually. But if you have your steps dialed in, again, it just improves your efficiency. 

Heather Winchell: Yes. Well, also, a hundred percent.

We are called to depend on the Lord, to walk by the spirit to be agile and move when he says move. But also, stewardship is a really important. Right. Call in scripture as well. Right. To what Bernie was saying earlier. And stewardship isn't on a whim, stewardship is done with intention. Yeah. Stewardship is done with planning and awareness, and so I think you just have to hold intention, you know, being flexible and agile and open to what the spirit is speaking, but also with a heart to steward.

And in that be 

Bernie Anderson: yeah, 

Heather Winchell: be intentional. 

Bernie Anderson: Right? Yeah. Right. That's good. Well, and every time [00:44:00] I go into a meeting, my prayer is, holy Spirit lead me here. Like, help me know what I need to say, what I need to do. Give me insight into this person's life. Let me serve them in some way. And, and to me there is a definite, like that's part of the process.

Yeah. Right. Leading of the Holy Spirit is part of the process, uh, in my mind of, of how you actually raise funds and, and connect with people at that level. Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: So what would you say to somebody who would just, he, maybe this is their, their first rodeo and they're like, I'm so stressed that I'm gonna mess up my, my conversation or my pitch or my presentation?

That's, that's a great question. 

Bernie Anderson: I would say, first of all, uh, no. Um, know who you are, know what your purpose is. Know, make sure. I think that's the biggest thing is, is know what you're, what you're doing and why you're doing it. And I think the second thing is no, then you can't mess up. 

Andy Brennan: Hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: It's not [00:45:00] possible.

Like, you're not gonna mess up. I mean, if you're true to your purpose and true to your own personality, um, you know, and I, I think getting coached, getting coached, getting practice, um, sure the more you do it, the more you, you, you get better at it. And, and realizing that this process that maybe you've built or that, that, you know, you've kind of thought through or whatever.

Um. It's, it's, it's gonna work at some point. Like it just will. Yeah. And, and so I think that's really important to know why you're doing this. I mean, if you go into a meeting and you're like, ah. Like, and I literally have had someone come like, I've, I've listened to this and it's painful. Um, yeah. We wanna go to the field and I don't really know yet where we wanna go.

Like literally had someone tell me this a few years ago mm-hmm. Don't really know where I want to go, but hey, would you guys think about supporting us? And it's like, probably not. Like, I don't know what you're gonna do. Yeah. I don't know what I'm supporting here. 

Andy Brennan: No clarity. 

Bernie Anderson: Um, little clarity is gonna be go a long way there.

Yeah. Um, [00:46:00] but, but that said, I mean, I think once you have that clarity, there's, there's no way you can mess up. Mm-hmm. You're not gonna mess up. Yeah. And uh, uh, because you're being true to yourself and you're being true to your calling. 

Heather Winchell: That reminds me of something my son said to me this weekend. He's 11 and I, I had the privilege of speaking at a women's event for my church and my son was riding with me in the car on the way to the event.

'cause I was dropping him off for play practice and we were talking about our mornings and I was like, yeah, you know, I'm feeling pretty good about my talk, but just, you know, I, I hope it lands well or whatever. And my son looks at me, he's like, you know, mom, I think that if you're doing what God wants you to do, it's pretty hard to get that wrong.

And I think that's what you're saying. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. Yeah. Like if 

Heather Winchell: God's in it, then nailed it. I mean certainly we can, we can veer and things can go sideways, but, but absolutely, truly, he's a good father. Yeah. And he does a lot to show us grace. Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. There's more grace in it than what people know. Yeah.[00:47:00] 

And even when something does go sideways, right? It went sideways. Yeah. You move on to the next one, you know, and that forms us. Um, that's, yeah, it form. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's good. 

Andy Brennan: So Bernie, can you share some examples of how this has played out in your own experience? Uh, how has your business and sales training contributed to partnership fruit?

Bernie Anderson: Yeah, I appreciate that question, Andy. So I think that the biggest, the, the for, for me, and I can give you an example that is just, just recent. Okay. So my wife and I are, uh, we're regional directors with new international, and we up to this point haven't done a ton of fundraising for ourselves. And it's been kind of intentionally so because, um, I've been doing other work and we haven't needed to raise a lot of extra money.

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: Um, but here recently we've kind of like, Hey, we actually want to do, do some more. So. Here's, and, and we, we've also just long, like short story, long story short, I guess, [00:48:00] uh, we've, we've shifted from a church situation where we were in one church and denomination and we've kind of migrated to where we're actually in a completely different world now, right?

So, and we've been in that world for a couple of years now, but it's, it's not anything like what we, where we used to be. So, uh, we, we recently, uh, had again this kind of like, okay, well let's go to our church and have this conversation. So, uh, we have, and, and what's been really interesting is that the, the sales piece of this is, that, that I used, that we used is sort of a.

Like having a good like, marketing piece. So I, I built a just a little one page, here's who we are, here's what we do, you know, here are the bullet points. 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: And, and so having something that they have that's tangible is, is really helpful. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: But also storytelling. Like at the end of the day, sales is about the story that you tell.

Hmm. And so [00:49:00] we used, um, just storytelling and, and again, we had a very limited, it wasn't that it was a long, I, when I say storytelling, what I don't mean is, Hey, I'm gonna tell you this long tail of when first I was born in Battle Creek, Michigan, and then I, my parents, you know, no, yeah. Like the story is. Is really just succinct in saying like, here is our vision.

We, our, our entire career has been about developing leaders and helping people thrive in their calling. Guess what? We do that with the work that we do with new international and as, and here's how and, and here's a list of the ways that we, the people that we work with and, and how that's happening, including.

And, and we pulled out a very specific piece that dealt with this very specific church where a, we are working with people that are planting [00:50:00] churches just like this one in northern Thailand. And we could even bring them here if you want. We actually have ways that you could have people go to the field.

Like we've got like a way to give. So it's generosity, it's storytelling. And as we speak tonight, you know, their missions committee is gonna be meeting and, uh, I talked to the guy yesterday and it was like, I mean, yeah, I think, I think we're probably going to see some fruit from this. We haven't yet. I can let you know later, you know, what the outcome of the story is.

Well leave it a little bit, uh, little bit of a, uh, uh, cliffhanger, you know, kind of cliffhanger ending. That's right. Um, but, uh, uh, yeah, like I, I do believe there'll be fruit from this. Um, and it's, I, again, I put that to really tangible storytelling. And, and being able to really talk about your purpose.

Mm-hmm. And what is the benefit that you have in partnering with us? Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, um, and that's exactly what we [00:51:00] did, and I'm about 90% sure it's gonna work. So Awesome. 

Andy Brennan: So good. I mean, storytelling is so, so, so important. Mm-hmm. 

Heather Winchell: I 

Andy Brennan: mean, we're just wired for that as, as humans, 

Heather Winchell: right? 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Actually, that kind of goes into the next question I have for you though, Bernie.

So, storytelling is a powerful tool and it's a tool that actually can be wielded in a manipulative way or in a really absolutely like, generous way. Mm-hmm. And so, and it strikes me that many of these. Tools or, or strategies or kind of concepts that we've been talking about very much lend themselves towards that as well.

They can be used in a way that's not to the benefit of others. Deforming, yeah. Is deforming. Um, I would love, can you give us a cautionary tale or an example of sales tactics gone wrong? Or misapplied. Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: It, yeah. Yeah. Um, I can, so I, I have seen this used improperly, uh, and particularly we [00:52:00] were on the field when this happened.

Andy Brennan: Mm. 

Bernie Anderson: And I, I can remember what happened was that our organization got connected with some kind of marketing, fundraising, marketing company. Okay. Um, and, and I don't even remember the name of the company and all that, but I, I remember walking into our field director's office and he's like, oh, this company sent us this like mockup of, you know, of, of this thing that we're gonna use to raise all this money for some project, what we're doing.

Right. And he showed it to me and it was just full of. Like, Hey, we are doing this and this and this, and I'm like, what, what, what we are? Hmm. And then it was like, we're doing this and this and this. No, we're not actually, we're doing also this. And then it was like, but yeah, kind of. But that's a little like, like disingenuous.

And I, I can remember looking at this sheet thinking, okay, we can't use this in 

Andy Brennan: good faith 

Bernie Anderson: because it's not true. Yeah. Right. So, and, and I mean. [00:53:00] Unfortunately, this marketing company was able to talk that particular, that particular field into saying, oh, but this is how we talk to donors and blah, blah, blah.

And it's like, uh, mm-hmm. I'm not comfortable with that. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, and, and it's for that reason that a lot of workers don't want to do like the Oh, that's sales. You know? Oh. I mean, that's like, that's why we're using sales company and we're, we're telling people that we're, you know, doing all this stuff that we're actually not doing 

Heather Winchell: right.

Bernie Anderson: And, and I think that, um, or it's aspirational. That was what a lot of this was, was just aspirational. Yeah. Hey, we, we, we are doing this. Well, I mean, we could be doing that maybe in 10 years, but we're not doing it right now, you know? And, and I, so to me, being disingenuous and being dishonest is never right.

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: So I, I think that I. Anybody who's fundraising needs to be honest with their donors and honesty means, Hey, this is what we're doing right now. Now [00:54:00] don't spend your whole time aspirational. Like, Hey, we want to do this and this and this. Right? Um, I think it's important for donors to hear what it is that you are actually.

Doing, and then Sure. What do we, this is where we wanna go, help us get there. Right? Yeah. But, but to, to say that you're doing something that you're actually not doing is, uh, that's where it gets manipulative. And that's where I would never want anybody to, and I wouldn't want that in a sales situation either.

Right. Like, I'd, if somebody's trying to sell me something I don't want, don't lie to me. Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Bernie Anderson: I, uh, was, as a young man, was applying for a job, uh. Wife and I had just gotten married and I started working at this place that I didn't really like. So I was out, you know, job hunting. And it was funny because at the time I still thought, you know, this was in the late 19, early, late 1980s, early 1990s.

And so I still thought you had to wear a suit to any job interview, even if it was like to a mattress store, right? So I'm uhhuh in my suit and tie at this [00:55:00] mattress store, and the guy is like, Hey, um, yeah, I'd, I'd like to hire you. You seem like you'd be a good salesperson. Are you good to, you know, like if somebody, are you good for a hard sell, is what he asked.

And I was like, uh, what do you mean by that? And he said like, if there is, uh, you know, 15 mattresses in the back, are you willing to tell somebody that, Hey, there's only, there's only one left. And I just looked at him. You mean like lie to people? And he said, yeah. I said, no, I'm not willing to do that. You know, and it, the thing, and mattress companies are notorious for that kind of thing, right?

Hmm. Um. But yeah, like that is not what we're called to do in the kingdom. That is not what we're called to do in fundraising. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's the opposite, 

Andy Brennan: right? Like you're losing trust, you're actually burning those bridges that you were trying to build. Yeah. And I feel like that that puffery, that the, what was the word that you used?

You, it's aspirational, right? Mm-hmm. Like mm-hmm. That actually goes in the opposite [00:56:00] direction, because I think we've talked about this in the past too, that, um, we want to go in the direction of sanctifying the mundane acts of faithfulness that we are a part of on the field. Like I, yeah, I didn't baptize anybody in my bathtub, but I did get a chance to babysit my, my teammate's kids for a while.

Yeah. And let's make those, like, those are the wins, and then we can encourage the people back home too. Oh, I can be faithful too. And that, that's a, these are all good things. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. Right, 

Andy Brennan: right. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah. Well, and the storytelling piece actually, and, and going back to something you said earlier, Heather, like the, the storytelling piece also keeps us accountable.

So we tell the story and we tell the honest story. But if it's kind of a thing where, man, I don't, I don't, do I have a story to tell? Like, do I have, like, what is it? So there's an element of accountability, not, not for the sense of performance, right? Like it's not, it's [00:57:00] not so that I can perform or, you know, do this thing where I make more money or whatever.

But it, it is a sense in, wait, do I have a story to tell? What is the story I have to tell? Mm-hmm. And maybe it's, maybe it's a little bit different than what my donors like are expecting. Well, that's okay. Tell your story. Mm-hmm. Because that's what's important. Yeah. You know, and I, I think that, um, and even if that means you have to find new donors, like that's, I know, easier said than done, and I know that, like I know the pain of that, right?

Mm-hmm. But tell your story. Don't tell the story that you think people want to hear. Yeah. You know? Right. I think that's important at the end of the day. For sure. Absolutely. It's so good.

Heather Winchell: All right. So Bernie, as we kind of come to the conclusion of our conversation, I guess I'm wondering what are some practical ways that people can lean on these principles while still growing independence on God and not necessarily the process, like holding those intention, [00:58:00] not having a process, but then also not depending solely in the process.

How would you counsel someone in that? 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah, so one of the things that I think about a lot, it's, it's kind of, I tell people this is, this is kind of my personal, like Roman Empire, right? Like the thing I think about way more than what I probably should is the fact that that. We are so bad at, at separating sacred secular, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, we're, so, in fact, I'm giving a, a gonna be at a admissions conference here in the next, uh, the end of the month. And that's my workshop is, Hey, let's, let's stop that. Like, we think sacred secular, there's this thing over here that's God's thing. There's this thing over here that's like man's thing.

So we have faith and we have sails. When Jesus died, the curtain was torn, and when [00:59:00] the curtain was torn, like that theology, the thing that happened at that torn curtain was that the holy of Holies is now open for anybody, 

Andy Brennan: right? 

Bernie Anderson: Mm-hmm. You can just walk right in. And I, I think that it's so important to realize that what that means is that also it goes the other way.

It's not just that we can get to. The sacred, like to the holy place, like we can be at the holy place. We can go to the, we don't need a priest anymore to go to God. We just go to God because Jesus is our high priest, right? Mm-hmm. So that theology actually has implications in everything because everything is sacred.

I mean, it's not sacred, secular, everything is actually sacred. Everything like, and, and so when we think about fundraising, it's not like we're having to do this, this thing that is like worldly or. Salesy or whatever. No, it's, I'm [01:00:00] asking people for money and you know what? It's a God thing. One of the best books I've ever read on this subject, and I highly recommend it to anybody who's doing fundraising, is Henry Now's book on, uh, the, the Spirituality of Fundraising.

So good. Mm-hmm. He actually talks about that in such a profound way. Yeah. And I, I just love for, and whenever I coach anybody along these lines, that's if they're doing, if they're believers and if they're doing, having to ask for money in any way, I'm like, here, you need to like, take the hour that it takes to read this book and read it and internalize it because it's, uh, it's just so important.

And, and I think it's just important to realize that, hey, there is a, it, it is a spirituality. It is something that, um, that, that is not just a. A thing you have to do or necessary evil. Mm-hmm. No, it's, it's a totally God spiritual thing. Um, mm. And I, I think that's so [01:01:00] important to remember. Mm-hmm. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. So absolutely.

We wholeheartedly agree. 

Andy Brennan: So my wife and I just went to go see a movie over the weekend, and it's called, normally I wouldn't plug a movie, but it's called Green and Gold. Fantastic. Uh, movie all, I mean, even if you don't like sports, there's a lot of packers, uh, stuff in there. Green Bay Packers, um, right. But the, the protagonists are, uh, Wisconsin dairy farmers that are doing things the old fashioned ways.

They're in their, they're unwilling to industrialize and, and kind of do it in a, in a way that harms the earth. All this kind of stuff. So, right, right. There's this one line where this guy is, is sitting in, uh, in the hospital, uh, on a bench and talks to this granddaughter and he says something like, what there, there's a certain holiness to what you guys are doing.

And I was like, that is. That is fantastic. And I think that we can apply that to a lot of these things that we see as kind of mundane and clerical, but there we can sanctify that do [01:02:00] absolutely everything as unto the Lord. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah, yeah. Whether you eat that's good or whether you drink the most mundane things we can do.

Andy Brennan: Right. We do it all the time. The Lord. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: I, I think that's so important. So it applies to fundraising and applies to work and vocation, to family, to so many other things that, that we would oftentimes separate in our minds. And, and I, I think as we follow Jesus and begin to just see that, hey, the whole thing is great, it just makes life so much more enjoyable.

It's like kind of coming up out of the basement and realizing there's a whole world out here that we can, uh, enjoy and, and rejoice in and, you know, give God glory for. Hmm. Even though it's. Secular, you know? Yeah. I mean, right. I, I just think that's a, I think that's a real freeing thing. Mm-hmm. So, 

Heather Winchell: yeah.

That also makes me think of just this idea that there will be redemption as far as the curse is found, not redemption for the things that matter or the things of consequence. Mm-hmm. Redemption as far as, mm. The curse has [01:03:00] touched something. 

Andy Brennan: Mm. Yeah. And I wonder if this sacred secular thing is any kind of like a, a holdover of some of this old gnostic kind of thinking of like, no, like the flesh is bad and the spirit is good and, and, uh, we, they can't be mixed and Yeah.

It's just, it gets it's troublesome. Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: Slippery. Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Cool. You're giving it a talk on that. 

Bernie Anderson: I am, I, I'm actually doing a workshop on it. Cool. And kind of applying it to, uh, this is a conference for, uh, people who are doing kind of member care. It's like a member care conference, but it's, uh, up in Minneapolis here in a couple of weeks.

Nice. Cool. And, um, the, uh, it's really to say, Hey, here's how, how can we support people doing business's mission? Mm. Like what people at home who are supporting people doing business's mission need to do is, is like they have a hard time. Like, oh, you're doing business. 

Andy Brennan: Mm. 

Bernie Anderson: Um, well that must mean you're like just out there making money and like, so you don't even need my [01:04:00] support.

Well, first of all, they may not need your money. They may not. Mm-hmm. Or they may, depending on what kind of business' mission they're doing. But either way, like supporting them is really important because it's like they're in the business, they're where the people are, they're exactly where Jesus would be in the marketplace, you know, or whatever.

Yeah. So, right. So like, getting rid of, I, I see a lot of issues in caring for those folks. Uh, we've gotta get rid of this sort of idea that, oh, there's like sacred mission work, and then there's like secular whatever. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That kind of thing. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Cool. Very cool. 

Andy Brennan: Good. Okay. I get the honors.

Heather Winchell: You got the honors. 

Andy Brennan: Last question. Okay. You've been invited to a TED Talk and you have 10 minutes to prepare. Before you step onto the stage, what are you gonna talk about? 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah, so the big subject on my mind at the moment is, uh, the, this, this idea of generative leadership. So my TED [01:05:00] talk would be on the power of generative leadership and why the best leaders.

Giveaway power rather than hoard power. Mm. Um, hoarding power creates toxicity and horrible culture and it's power hoarding is just a terrible thing. The best leaders, whether it's Abraham Lincoln or, or St. Patrick, or I've got a couple of different examples mm-hmm. Um, are the ones that actually give it away.

Um, which, hey, I, I, I think Jesus said something about that as well. That sounds familiar. Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: Cool. Well, Bernie, if people were interested in finding out more about your work specifically, where should we point them? 

Bernie Anderson: So you could go to a couple of places. You can go to growability.com and that's the organization that I work with.

Uh, and then I do most of my business with is, is through growability and we do consulting and coaching [01:06:00] and, uh, business development and nonprofit development and all of that. Awesome. And, uh, I'm, I'm there. Uh, you can also reach me. I have a personal website. Uh, it's just bernie anderson.com and you can go there and I do some writing on there.

And, uh, uh, I have a weekly, uh, I have a weekly like substack. That goes out, that's just, uh, uh, you know, you can kind of get to it from there and would love to have anybody of your listeners that wanna join, join in that. So, uh, cool. That would be great. But, uh, awesome. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Well, thank you again so much for your time.

Like we said before, you've got a lot going on, so we really appreciate your generosity in that. 

Bernie Anderson: Yeah, 

Heather Winchell: yeah. 

Bernie Anderson: Thanks Bernie. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah, 

Bernie Anderson: my pleasure. 

Andy Brennan: Thank you.

It's not about, the money is presented by Pro Proviso fundraising solutions. Proviso equips support based workers with flexible training, practical resources, and one-on-one coaching. Find out [01:07:00] more@provisofundraising.com.