The LYLAS Podcast
If you know what LYLAS stands for, then this podcast is for you! Two besties since middle school turned moms and psychologists dish on "the good, the fun, and the yucks" of life! We're tackling all things mental health, "mom balance" (whatever the hell that is), transitions in life (divorce, career, aging parents, parent loss, loss of friendships), self-care, travel, healthy habits, raising kids, and allllllll the things us midlife mamas are experiencing. We hope each week listeners feel like they just left a good ol' therapy session with their bestie! We'll dish on all the tips and tricks to keep your mental health in check and enjoy this thing called life! Meet your life's newest cheerleaders-- Sarah & Jen! LYLAS!
The LYLAS Podcast
"Understanding Behavior, Not Punishing It with Dr. Susan Thomas: Part 1"
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Drawing from her extensive experience as a special education teacher, Dr. Thomas explains that effective behavior support isn't about punishment—it's about setting clear, understandable expectations that children can meet. “I’ve got to be able to see it and count it,” she emphasizes, pointing out that vague instructions like “be respectful” don't provide children with the specific guidance they need to succeed.
Instead, she offers practical tools like the SLANT method for active listening—Sit tall, Lean forward, Acknowledge the speaker, Nod, Track the speaker—to demonstrate how breaking behaviors into observable, measurable actions creates a strong foundation for lifelong success.
Want to transform how you support your child’s behavior at home and in school?
Tune in now for powerful insights that can shift your parenting approach and help your child build essential life skills. Don't forget to visit our website for valuable resources from Dr. Thomas—and be sure to catch Part Two next week!
Please be sure to checkout our website for previous episodes, our psych-approved resource page, and connect with us on social media! All this and more at www.thelylaspodcast.com
All right, welcome back listeners. It is officially season five of the Lylas podcast and we're kicking it off with a very special guest today. Dr Susan Thomas is our guest on this episode. She has over 40 years of educational experience, having served 18 years as a gen ed and special education teacher, nine years as a director of special education for two school districts. Dr Thomas spent a year over in Doha, qatar. As she always reminds me, it's not Qatar, it's Qatar serving as the head of teaching and learning to establish evidence-based instructional practices and positive behavior interventions and supports.
Speaker 1She served as the head of Glen Forest School, as a private school for students with disabilities needing intensive support, and in 2017, she worked on a project with the National Institute for Direct Instruction in Australia. She's an adjunct professor in special education at the University of South Carolina. Dr Thomas was a peer reviewer for Focus on Autism and Other Developmental Disabilities. She was a contributing author in the Handbook of Leadership and Administration for Special Education, and she served on the South Carolina Council for Exceptional Children board for 13 years. Dr Thomas serves as president of the South Carolina Association for Positive Behavior Support and served as the state coordinator for the National Center of Positive Behavior Interventions and Supports. She consults with the state department, districts and schools to support the implementation of multi-tiered systems of support, using positive behavior support and evidence-based instructional strategies, as well as team initiated problem solving. She currently works with school districts to support effective special education programs and policies.
Speaker 1I say all that to say she is the real deal and the best teacher I've ever had. So I'm very excited to welcome my esteemed colleague, dr Susan Thomas, to the LiveLess Podcast. How'd I do on that?
Speaker 2I am so excited to be here. I sound like I know a lot, but you know I'm still just learning. But you know, when you say over 40 years in education, I don't feel that old, but it's going to be fun. I can't wait to see what we're going to talk about. All the things could be fun today.
Speaker 1Well, I think it comes across clearly. You've got a ton of experience in positive behavior support systems and I think that is a lot about what we want to talk about today, because we a lot of us have kids in school and we want to talk about behavior. That's been a topic we've briefly covered in a previous episode, but we want to dive a little bit more into behavior, particularly as it relates to school age children and how we can support them as parents and support their teachers as well. Right, because it's not just about supporting our kids, but it's about supporting teachers in schools.
Speaker 2Absolutely, and that's you know, it's so important. And now, you know, my children are grown and, in fact, are in this, in this 40-ish age group, and so I have five grandchildren and I'm watching parenting from a different perspective now, and so I think we're always. There are a lot of things that are just tried and true, and they're the things we've learned to do better with, and so it's a it's a great topic.
Speaker 3Yeah, seriously, and again, thank you so much for being here with this.
Defining Positive Behavior Support
Speaker 3As Jenny was saying, you know most of our listeners have school-age children. We both have school-age children, and I don't recall there being as much struggle as what I see now happening. Even with my oldest son, who's 21,. I don't remember the educational system or the experiences that he had, even being close to what I see my daughter going through now, and so I don't know if that's just time and perspective or difference, but I think, having somebody on here that can really speak to just how can we create more healthy, positive environments for our kids at home that can then transcend into the school? Or, if there's negative experiences there within school, how can we, as Jen was saying, best support them in this whole process? With that, though, I mean we're all psychologists and so we can kind of I don't speak school psych, not well anyways but can you give us a definition of what you mean whenever we're talking about, like the positive interventions or the positive reinforcement support that you're an expert in and that gets used without the South Carolina school system?
Speaker 2Well, I think, when I think about positive behavior support, the thing that we think about first of all is that we've got really clearly defined expectations and that we all know, when we think about schools but I would say this is true at home, right that we have really given a behavioral definition to those expectations. So I always tell people I got to be able to see it and count it. So I always tell people I got to be able to see it and count it. So you know, I don't just say you know, ok, let's be respectful, what do I do when I'm respectful? And context matters.
Speaker 2So you know, when we talk about that, it's about having those expectations, in particular context. And then it's about teaching them what it looks like and sounds like. It's about teaching all of us that. And then it's also about really prompting to do it, and I think you know whatever that behavioral expectation is, and then correcting and giving feedback. So, and some kids, you know you tell them once and they remember, right, not my own personal children, but some kids. That happens, for For some children they need a lot of support to help them display those expectations, and that's true whether you're at home or at school. And so it's about giving them that level of support. So when we say positive behavior, interventions and supports, it's about giving them that level of support so that they practice correctly and can do it, and so that kind of defines it for me. And it doesn't matter whether we're talking about at home or school, it's the same thing school.
Teaching Clear Behavioral Expectations
Speaker 3It's the same thing. So, really, what we're trying to do, then, is more effectively verbalize what types of behaviors that we are specifically seeing within our kids, no matter where they're at, and then not just using like a general term, like you said, like be good or listen, like let's actually break those behaviors down into what that means, to do those things, because we as adults just talk like this, like hey, you need to pay attention in school. How do you pay attention in school? You know, how I pay attention to school is probably much different than how Jen pays attention in school.
Speaker 2Absolutely. And so you know, when we have schools and I you know I'm an educator, so I'll talk about that school setting. But at schools, if we're using true positive behavior, interventions and supports, if we have expectations, we're teaching what it looks like to be a good listener. And so you know, a lot of people will use a strategy called slant, which means, you know, sitting tall, I'm leaning forward, I'm acknowledging the speaker, I'm nodding, that's the end, and I'm tracking the speaker. I'll say that's a great strategy that makes it look like you're listening. Right, we have adults who need to do that in meetings. You know, if you're in a meeting with your boss, use the slant strategy, and so you've taught kids what it looks like. Now, what I used to tell my kids is that you, my students, is you do this, you're at least in the ballpark for having the appropriate behavior. What you're actually taking in, I can't control Right.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 2But you're more likely to be showing that appropriate behavior.
Speaker 1But honestly, that's, that's a life skill. It's not just something you're teaching your, your first, second, third grader. That's something they're going to carry into adulthood when they're sitting in a meeting with their boss or with anybody Right, anybody that you're trying to show respect to. That's, that's a skill that they will have already practiced for years at that point.
Speaker 2And I think what we forget about with adults and you know I don't I think behavior is the same with adults and kids. You know, sometimes we're just better at it when we get to be adults, but I think we forget that our context and our cultural norms kind of define how we behave. So I always give the example that growing up, my aunt who raised me, made me go to this thing called white gloves and party manners so that I would have learned the right skills. You know to go to parties and you know act like I was supposed to act right. I don't use those things all the time, but if I go to a really nice function, I have the skills. So that's one of the things that you know. As an adult I can make better decisions about when, sometimes about when I need to use those skills.
Speaker 2But kids don't have all that. They don't have all that experience to wrap around things. So we have to teach them very explicitly, because we may have some norms in our home that are not the norms at school and I'll just give this example, and y'all can stop me when I'm talking too much but like my children are teaching their children to say yes, ma'am, and no ma'am. Okay, we live in South Carolina. That's kind of a cultural thing, right. Yes, that may not be the norm for another family, but if that's the norm in the school where your child is, that it's important. We want to teach that behavior so that they are appropriate and have those social skills in that particular context. We all have to act a certain way in certain places and so kind of teaching that skill if that makes sense.
Speaker 3Yeah, I just I mean, I'm not even kidding Like I wrote down, slant on a piece of paper whenever you were talking about it, Not that I didn't know, not that I don't do that as a behavior. Whenever I'm listening to someone, you know we do the active listening, you know kind of what we're taught. But if we're not taught this stuff as adults, or even as children, then that in itself is its own deficit. That then gets passed on to our children and to whatever environments that they're being, you know, reared in. So how can we get better at parents that actually understanding and verbalizing this type of thing?
Speaker 2Well, and I think one of the things that's important is for you to, for parents to look at the expectations that the school has. And I think when schools have a lack of those expectations, to me that's very problematic, because they're assuming that kids already know how to act. Mm-hmm, because they're assuming that kids already know how to act. And a lot of times, you know, we try to make it about, you know your socioeconomic background that kids from this group know how to act. It's not that at all that's so wrong, because it really has to do with our own, the way we live, you know, and our little home, cultures and the context of our home and the things we've experienced. And so, as parents, the first thing I would say is look at your school. Does your school have good expectations for behavior and are they things that are defined? So if I, when I go in a building, if I just see a lot of nebulous terms like respect, responsible you know a lot of those character ed words. Help me, jenny, with another one. You know Even be safe.
Speaker 1Like what does that?
Speaker 2mean to be safe, right, and if the school can't tell you exactly what that looks and sounds like, I think it's a great conversation to have with your school.
Speaker 1Mm, hmm, mm, hmm. You exactly what that looks and sounds like.
Cultural Context and School Norms
Speaker 2I think it's a great conversation to have with your school about. You know what is it that this looks like in your school? Because students are getting in trouble for things that sometimes they don't even know. When they say they don't know what they did wrong, they don't know what they did wrong and it's not been articulated to them either.
Speaker 1And I love the example you use about saying yes ma'am, no ma'am, because in West Virginia we did not grow up that way. That was not cultural for us. But when I moved to the South and, you know, working in schools, I never made kids say yes ma'am to me. In fact, it always made me feel old. I'd say don't call me ma'am, that makes me feel old. But you know, I had an intern who was born and raised here in Charleston and and I noticed one day that she corrected a student and had her say yes ma'am back to her and I said she said that's very important here and if we don't teach kids we could be setting them up for potential, you know, not failure, but setting them up almost like they're disrespecting adults in the building. And I honestly, it had never crossed my mind because it wasn't important to me. And so I think that those contextual factors are so important and probably we don't think. If you have transplanted yourself from one state to the other, you may not even realize some of the contextual factors.
Speaker 2And I think as a parent, just because when I was teaching I had a lot of students who had trouble sometimes following the expectations in the classroom. But you know, we don't have to agree with everything, but we got to fake it till we make it Right. And that's the thing is giving them the skills to be able to be successful in the place they are at that particular time. It's not so much about a belief system, and I think that's one thing I might would say to you as younger parents is that may not be your particular belief system but in support of the school, you're going to try to work with your child to meet that and then if you have a problem, definitely talk to the school about it. You know, I mean, I think always giving a different viewpoint is important for parents to do in a professional way, in a nice way, that's true. In a respectful way.
Speaker 2Yes, in a respectful way.
Speaker 3Yes, defining what that means. So how many other school systems across the nation use this model that you all are employing in South Carolina?
Speaker 2with the positive behavior yeah. I would not say South Carolina is really has a model of that, being that we have some schools there about I would say, 14 school districts that have kind of are currently engaging with learning about this. In our state we have almost 70. I didn't look up this number, but there is a National Technical Assistance Center right now that's still operating all the positive behavior, interventions and supports, and so there are over a thousand schools that have tried implementation. Now I say that, sarah, and that doesn't mean they're fully implementing.
Speaker 3Fair, okay, yeah.
Beyond Punishment: Meaningful Support
Speaker 2And so they may have signed up or gone to a training and they get counted because they've done, but they may not be fully implementing. It is really a hard thing for people to change that mindset, and I'll just give you an example from the school side. So my son is an elementary principal and so he was telling me he was having a conversation with the teacher this week and she said you know, there's so little we can do to kids now when they misbehave. There's so little we can do to kids now when they misbehave. And he said I'm not sure what you're talking about, because what is that definition?
Speaker 1you're thinking of.
Speaker 2You want to nail them to the wall with punishment in hopes that that will improve their behavior.
Speaker 2Right and that's not what supporting behavior is about. Behavior right, and that's not what supporting behavior is about. Changing that mindset for people is really hard, because, from the school basis, okay, Because you know, if you were a kid that always did what you were told to do, you don't understand why other people don't Right, and you may have been a child that that one you know. As my son says about my own grandchildren, you know, mom, they're OK because they're not the kids that really have chronic behavior that need more support. Yeah, and so you know that day of suspension might mean something to them. It doesn't mean something to other kids with chronic behavior.
Speaker 2No, and so if you have a behavior that you need support with, punishment is not going to change it, and it might stop at one moment of time.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, well, and hearing you, I use the word principle, but I'm thinking parent too, because I think that that's the first place that we want to go to as well. Whenever there's a problematic behavior is some form of punishment Like what can we do right now? You did something wrong, now here's the consequence, and so it's.
Speaker 2And there are consequences, you know. I mean, I think sometimes withdrawal of a privilege, but it's a meaning if you're going to put it. I call it an additional consequence because if you're going to put that in place, it has to be meaningful, and so it has to be something that's going to make a difference. So you know my two kids and you can't do the same thing with your children because they're different. So my daughter, like she's an introvert, she really doesn't like people. So telling her she couldn't go to a social function as a form of, you know, punishment no big deal. You told my son that that was a big deal. And so if you're going to use something like that, then you got to remember it's got to be meaningful.
Speaker 2But before you do that, you've got to put support in place for them to be successful and you've got to up the support and then you fade it and so it's just like telling your child to clean the room, okay, so maybe y'all have never had this experience, but and and and you go in and it's not clean, right? I told you to clean your room. You didn't do it, right. Well, you know, for my son that was stuffing everything underneath his bed. I mean including food and you know all kind of stuff, right. So you have to up that level of support of I'm going to show you and do it with you, or I'm going to chunk it into steps, or I'm going to you know. Whatever it is, that's the support. I'm a big believer in visuals, like if you're a parent at home and you're trying to get your child to remember what to pack up in the morning, have a visual there for them, you know, because they need that level of support and reminder.
Speaker 1And it really depends on the kid. If you've got a kid that has ADHD, for example, they're probably going to need more supports to learn a new behavior and even to continue that behavior they might need those supports in place. But even it had me thinking about. I had this happened the other day.
Preparing Kids for Independence
Speaker 1My son wanted to go to the grocery store by himself and I was like no, you can't go by yourself. Because I was like hey, you've never done this before. I don't want you to accidentally steal something or get up there and not have enough money and not know what to do or know where to put the cash or you know all the things. And I started and he got kind of mad at me because I wasn't giving him that freedom to do that. Right, and he he feels very confident in his skills that he could have done it, but it was. It was a little nudge to me to say this is something, let's go do it together. Let's go together because I haven't taken him to the grocery store since he was little and it really taken him and kind of walked him through. Ok, here's what we do, and then maybe the next time I'm going to sit in the car and let him do it, and then maybe the next time I'm going to let him bike up and do it himself.
Speaker 1But it really made me think about how I need to put supports in place, first, because that gives me comfort in knowing that he's not going to accidentally, you know, lift something or you know get up there and just not know what to do. And be a kid in an adult environment, right. And so when you think about even just like the simplest tasks of something like that it doesn't always have to be, you know, around negative behaviors or around, you know, cleaning your room, things we do in the house, but even in the community how can we support them to be able to give them a little bit more freedom as they get older? I know that's something we talk a lot about. Sarah is just, our kids are starting to get to that age where they want more freedom and it's a different world than we grew up in. And so how do we prepare them and start to release a little bit of that, but also ensuring that they are adequately prepared for that new responsibility, like that's sort of where we're both at with our my oldest, her youngest.
Speaker 2And I think and I'm thinking about Sarah, something that you said right at the very beginning is that it is a different world. So I think even in our education system it's very different. So it used to be things that we might would just, you know, give you. We didn't call parents about every single thing that went wrong. I see today that everything kids do is getting reported back to parents, and I'm not sure why. I'm not sure why we think we need to do that. We're the adults in charge, handle it at school, but I think that's created a lot more issues for us as parents sometimes because you're hearing, you know all this stuff and some of it's just normal kid stuff Right, they're going to be kids, they're kids, and so we've got to remember not to overreact to that too, you know, but I think, at the same time, then, we have to remind kids that you know these are things that are being addressed at school. So you got to play the game here. You know it's important.
Motivating the Unmotivated Child
Speaker 3Yeah, it really is. You know, within our structure. One thing that I think is hard for us to kind of figure out is we have, you know, kids are different. We've already talked. Our boys are different than our girls. Kids, different ages, a lot of different factors play into that. Our son at 16, I let him drive across the country by himself. He was a type 1 diabetic but he was equipped and had the skills and knowledge and I wasn't worried a thing about him. But that's not always the same.
Speaker 3But whenever you have one kid in your house who sees the other one having all these you know privileges or allowances and then they feel more trapped, that can also cause some like kind of you know, feelings of yuck or disadvantage to it. But in talking about behavior, whenever it comes to what you see within the home and sometimes within the school, it's maybe nice almost, if it mirrors, because then at least you know that the problem, so to speak, is congruent and not isolated. But what do you do if you have a child who you know is clearly not motivated, like you talked about how your son was very social, your daughter, could you know, kind of care less? What if you have a child who there's ended up, you know kind of care less. What if you have a child who there's ended up, you know, maybe their stepmom happens to be a psychologist? But what if there's nothing that you can literally and behaviorally trained and you know WVU and Marshall but that there's just not a reward or in using those kinds of terms of punishment or a consequence that is really motivating at the needle one way or the other, even whenever they're behaviorally defined in both settings, like meetings with the teachers, the parents, and there's just just very laissez faire in a way.
Speaker 3It's very you know, anything could happen and it's all still going to be OK. What do you do? Anything could happen and it's all still going to be okay. What do you do? And on that note, you're going to have to wait till next week to hear Dr Susan Thomas's answer to my question. Thank you again for listening to our first episode of season five of the Lylas podcast. Be sure to check out all of our social media, as we will have continued updates on upcoming guests as well as awesome resources that you can find on our website. Tune in next week for part two with Dr Thomas.
