S3 E35: This week on the DL: The Open Marriage, pt. 2 of 2

We’re back with Part 2 of our conversation with Danielle, the creator of Openly Committed. In this episode, we dive deeper into open relationships, the myths perpetuated by social media, and the raw truths about love, parenting, and emotional risk. Danielle shares what it’s really like to navigate non-monogamy, how social media shaped her views on divorce, and why honesty—not tradition—is the true cornerstone of lasting partnership.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by our podcast guest are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the hosts or the podcast. We value diverse perspectives and aim to provide a platform for thoughtful discussion and exploration of different ideas.

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Transcript

Alex Howard
00:00 - 00:03
I'm Alex Howard and I'm Amanda Silver and this is Dirty Laundry. 

Danielle
00:11 - 00:18
Do you feel like we, because of social media, we romanticize divorce? Yes, yes, 

Danielle
00:18 - 00:18
yes, 

Danielle
00:18 - 00:19
yes, yes, a 

Danielle
00:19 - 00:20
thousand times, yes. I 

Danielle
00:20 - 00:23
think it can happen with open relationships. Okay, tell me more how 

Danielle
00:23 - 00:23
we romanticize 

Danielle
00:23 - 00:24
divorce. 

Danielle
00:25 - 00:26
I, do you want, 

Danielle
00:26 - 00:27
you go. No, no, no. I was, really 

Danielle
00:27 - 00:37
quickly, for me it was to the point, Because I'm doing this work. I'm following people that are doing the same work, coaches, successful divorced couples. And they're talking about this 50% 

Alex Howard
00:37 - 00:37
lifestyle. 

Danielle
00:38 - 01:42
And I get to do more of my job or get to pottery class or see my friends. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I want a divorce. I do this every single day to the point where it's like almost debilitating to compartmentalize because the work is so difficult and you see the difficulty that our clients are going through. And there was still a moment where I'm like, nope, I want a divorce. fuck this life fuck this taking care of everyone and the mental load and then this and then I actually stopped I looked around and I go since I met my husband I haven't vacuumed once he does laundry most of the time like he'll you know switch the machines I like to fold it while I'm watching a show like we actually have a really good system in place but I was so inundated with either the negativity about men or the glory of life with only 50 percent children and when you're burnt out and tired seems real ideal that it actually was 100% glorifying it for me I had to stop I had to unfollow so many people I've basically stopped using my work account on Instagram because it was just it was taking over my personal life so I think yes that's why I'm a thousand times yes 

Alex Howard
01:42 - 02:12
I think we're all I think I'm guilty of it too of saying like I'm seven or eight years out and you know look at me now but like it's you don't people don't necessarily share the shit that they go through in a divorce that we see, um, that we are going through with our clients, right? They don't, they only see the end result on social media. It's like, look at me, I'm healed. I'm a healed person and I've discovered myself and I found my person and all these things that they show you on, on social media. But like, you don't see the real, the real shit and the guilt that comes with 

Amanda Silver
02:12 - 02:13
not seeing 

Alex Howard
02:13 - 02:18
your kids or not being able to be there for your kids and dealing with an ex-partner and all of those things that come with it. 

Danielle
02:19 - 02:20
So, you 

Alex Howard
02:20 - 02:22
know, it's not fun. No, it's not. 

Danielle
02:22 - 02:23
It's not fun. 

Alex Howard
02:23 - 02:23
Yeah. 

Danielle
02:24 - 02:35
I see the exact same thing with open relationships. It is something I'm personally struggling with because I've been in an open relationship for 15 years. And so to use your words, I am showing the other side 

Alex Howard
02:35 - 02:36
of it. 

Danielle
02:36 - 02:44
You know, it's taken 15 years to get to this point. I could never have been public about this on social media in the first 10 

Alex Howard
02:44 - 02:44
years because 

Danielle
02:44 - 02:46
I was still figuring it out. 

Alex Howard
02:46 - 02:47
And I'm at a much 

Danielle
02:47 - 02:48
more confident point 

Alex Howard
02:48 - 02:48
now. 

Danielle
02:49 - 02:52
I'm also at a point where it wouldn't impact my job, my career, 

Alex Howard
02:53 - 02:54
my marriage, 

Danielle
02:56 - 03:00
or my opinions of myself, my worth, you know, 

Alex Howard
03:00 - 03:02
in myself and 

Danielle
03:02 - 03:35
my marriage. But I do worry about this, that I'm showing kind of a, I don't want to say idealized, but I'm showing, you know, I'm showing the part of open relationships that work. And I think I'm very conscious to try and talk about the struggles with jealousy and the struggles with kind of figuring out agreements and communication and setting boundaries and the exposure to risk. At the end of the day, if you're in an open relationship, there is a risk that my partner could fall in love with someone else. 

Amanda Silver
03:35 - 03:36
Yep. Right. 

Danielle
03:36 - 03:39
That risk doesn't actually go away with monogamy, right? Right. 

Amanda Silver
03:39 - 03:41
So true. I can 

Alex Howard
03:41 - 03:41
tell you that it is 

Danielle
03:41 - 04:03
very possible for you to be in a monogamous relationship, your partner to leave you for somebody else. But in an open relationship, it could happen a little bit more easily because it's allowed. There are these things that I think it's important to talk about. Oh, and then going to your point, Alex, that's really where I get judgment. The moment you talk about any of the hard stuff. 

Alex Howard
04:05 - 04:05
Like, 

Danielle
04:05 - 04:06
well, I told you so. 

Alex Howard
04:07 - 04:10
What did you think was going to happen? Exactly. You can't 

Danielle
04:10 - 04:17
even be that vulnerable or that really truthful in a public forum. It's not like our conversation 

Danielle
04:17 - 04:33
here where we're spending, you know, 30 minutes talking about this. My videos are a minute, a minute, and a half. As you're trying to sell complex ideas about relationships, arguably the most important thing that we'll ever do in our lives, in like one minute. You're talking about jealousy in one minute. I'm sorry. 

Danielle
04:35 - 04:35
No big deal. 

Danielle
04:36 - 04:38
And how do you manage 

Alex Howard
04:38 - 04:47
the love factor? Like, how do you manage that? The falling in love with someone else and then turning it off? Yeah, like going back to the 

Alex Howard
04:47 - 04:48
rules. Is that 

Danielle
04:48 - 04:49
nothing? 

Danielle
04:49 - 04:51
Like, how does that play 

Alex Howard
04:51 - 04:52
out? Do you have a rule? 

Danielle
04:52 - 05:01
Like, well, we can't. I will only date, you know, people for one date or three dates. Or six months and then, oh, sorry. I'm talking like, I don't want to fall in love. 

Danielle
05:02 - 05:06
I mean, it kind of goes back to my example of like, if you're monogamous and not, you can still fall 

Amanda Silver
05:06 - 05:08
in love with someone else. Definitely, yes. I feel like 

Danielle
05:08 - 05:09
we can control our emotions. 

Amanda Silver
05:10 - 05:11
Yeah. And 

Danielle
05:11 - 05:14
I love getting to live a life where I don't have to control my 

Amanda Silver
05:14 - 05:14
emotions. 

Danielle
05:14 - 05:27
However, Amanda, I was totally scared to fall in love with someone for the first time. Like, I didn't fall in love with someone else until about, oh, I hope I get like six or seven years into our open relationship. I fell in love with someone else 

Amanda Silver
05:27 - 05:28
that I was dating. 

Danielle
05:28 - 05:30
I dated for about over a year. 

Amanda Silver
05:30 - 05:31
And at first, 

Danielle
05:32 - 06:06
I was so scared. I was like, am I going to ruin my marriage? I just had my daughter. You know, we've got two kids and I'm falling for someone. And it was really beautiful because I didn't stop loving my husband. And interestingly, it did happen about the same time my daughter was about six months old. And I had a similar fear when I was pregnant with my daughter. I was so scared that I was going to love my son less because now I was going to have a daughter. And that's not how it works. And not to be like, oh, woo, woo, but your heart grows and you're like, oh. 

Alex Howard
06:06 - 06:06
Your love 

Alex Howard
06:06 - 06:08
multiplies, doesn't 

Alex Howard
06:08 - 06:10
divide. Yeah, but love multiplies. It does, 

Danielle
06:10 - 06:23
yeah. And I think the fact that that happened at the same time that I was dating someone else, my heart grew and I loved him as well. And what was interesting for me that now makes it less scary is it was a very different kind of love. 

Alex Howard
06:23 - 06:24
It's not the same love 

Danielle
06:24 - 06:43
I have for my husband. You know, the love I have for my husband is different than the love I have for my kids, than love I have for my parents, for my best friend. And so when my heart grew and all of a sudden I loved my boyfriend too, I was like, oh, I have a love love in my life. This is really cool. And that love is not taken away from any other love. 

Alex Howard
06:43 - 06:43
Now, 

Danielle
06:44 - 06:46
resources are limited. 

Alex Howard
06:47 - 06:52
And time is limited. My other date nights is limited. Yeah, that takes 

Danielle
06:52 - 06:56
management. But the love, the love was just like, wow, this is cool. 

Danielle
07:01 - 07:27
That's so special. I'm still struggling, I'm not going to lie, with the whole idea of it. Because I could see the need to have a weekend getaway or go on vacation with somebody else. You're in a different spot. Things are different. You're not in your regular routine. But I think when you said, my love for my boyfriend didn't affect my love for my husband. I'm like, okay, this is interesting for me. There's things coming up. Time is 

Alex Howard
07:27 - 07:28
limited. Well, it's coming up for you. Well, 

Danielle
07:28 - 07:53
it's just this whole idea of like, so even for my husband and I, we stopped at two kids. I'm like, there's only two of us. I don't want to have to keep dividing up my time and miss out on things in their life. And so to me, it's like, and I wanted to segue into kids anyways, like you're now taking time away from your children also to go have this new relationship. How do you sort of reconcile that? 

Danielle
07:54 - 08:01
Oh, I think that's absolutely fair. And it is interesting. This is probably one of the main comments I get. It's like, oh, any time you're not spending with your 

Danielle
08:01 - 08:01
children. 

Danielle
08:02 - 08:08
All the time you're spending it with someone else, you're not spending it with the kids. To be clear, I think 

Danielle
08:08 - 08:15
having kids and breaks from kids and life outside of kids is all 100% natural. I think that's incredibly important. And needed. You need to have 

Alex Howard
08:15 - 08:17
that. It makes you a 

Alex Howard
08:17 - 08:20
better parent. And not everybody has that opportunity. 

Alex Howard
08:21 - 08:22
Even people 

Alex Howard
08:22 - 08:25
who are in monogamous relationships, they are on and they never 

Danielle
08:25 - 08:33
get that break. They never do. But I would feel guilty. I think I would feel guilty from taking more time away from spending with them. 

Danielle
08:33 - 08:34
But anyways, please answer the question. 

Danielle
08:34 - 08:36
I can talk about this forever. Yeah, 

Danielle
08:36 - 08:50
I mean, I think this is a great question. Honestly, I struggle with this. I'm not going to pretend like I know this one. I've got this one figured out. My kids are 11 and 7, and right now I feel so lucky that I get to spend as much time with them as I do. Part of it is both my husband and I work from home. 

Alex Howard
08:50 - 08:51
You know, we get to 

Danielle
08:51 - 09:31
go to pickups and drop-offs every day. But, yeah, I, you know, I do. I go away on trips by myself, and then the kids are home for three or four days, like, with my husband. And I think that – I think there's a couple of things. One is that, like, I feel like getting experiences and being able to be an individual makes me a better parent. It makes me a better human that is still interesting and engaged and kind of, like, functions as an individual. And I think it's a matter of like then how much time, how much time? And is there a thing as too much? There is. 

Alex Howard
09:31 - 09:32
I went away. 

Danielle
09:32 - 09:40
I mean, I recently, I don't need to get into too many details on this, but I had to go back to the U.S. for my spouse, Lovisa. So 

Alex Howard
09:40 - 09:41
I had to leave and 

Danielle
09:41 - 09:44
go back to the U.S. for a total of six weeks. 

Alex Howard
09:44 - 09:46
And I was separated 

Danielle
09:46 - 10:17
from the kids for three weeks because I was like, what's the shortest amount of time we can do this? So I was separated from the kids for three weeks. And then my husband flew over with the kids, and I was with the kids for two weeks. And then luckily my visa was approved a little bit early, and we all flew back. That was three weeks away from my kids. And that was way too long. Like the first, I'm not going to lie, the first 10 days, this is amazing. Oh, my God. I'm like, no one is waking up. Like I can decide when I wake up. I can decide how late I was. Like this is amazing. Day 10, I was like, this is too much. 

Alex Howard
10:18 - 10:18
This is too long. 

Danielle
10:19 - 10:21
I'm missing a part of me. 

Alex Howard
10:21 - 10:22
I'm missing a 

Danielle
10:22 - 10:53
long part. The mom part of me that, like, loves the snuggles and reading and helping these children, like, turn into incredible humans is missing. And so I think so much of it is, like, being really in tune to myself. Like, what is that balance where I still get to be an individual, a wife and partner and a mom? Because those are my core three things at the moment. And, like, making sure that those are always, like, in balance as much as I can be. Is anyone balancing everything? Does anybody 

Alex Howard
10:53 - 10:57
have it figured out? Like, I don't know. There's a range. 

Danielle
10:59 - 11:18
But then also balancing the needs of my kids and balancing the needs of my husband. You know, if my children are going through something, I'm dating less. I'm spending a lot more time with them. You know, whether that's studying for something at school or whether we just moved here and they're trying to make friends. Or, you know, whether, you know, just, you know, because they go through phases where they need you more. 

Alex Howard
11:18 - 11:19
And then it's 

Danielle
11:19 - 11:41
a couple of questions and they want to snuggle longer. And, like, making sure that I'm there for that. There is no formula. I can't tell you a formula. For me, it ends up being about one day off a week, give or take. That's how much time I spend, whether that's painting class or dating or whatever. My husband and I have a date night a week where we get a babysitter, and we've done that since our son was born 11 years ago, which I think is 

Danielle
11:41 - 11:47
hugely important. I think that's so important. To not talk about logistics, but to actually just revel in each 

Danielle
11:47 - 11:50
other's company. Yeah, that's beautiful. We still probably spent the first hour talking about logistics. 

Alex Howard
11:52 - 11:54
Let's get the housekeeping out of the way from this 

Alex Howard
11:54 - 11:55
meeting, and now 

Alex Howard
11:55 - 12:12
we can actually enjoy each other's company. But speaking of your children, so how does it work? As you said, you have 11 and 7-year-olds. So maybe they're quite young still. But as they get older and they maybe have questions, how much of it do you plan on sharing with them, or how do you approach that? Yeah, and you're online, so they 

Danielle
12:12 - 12:21
could really just see it. Yeah. I can't tell you how often I'm like, why didn't I do a DIY gardening channel? 

Alex Howard
12:25 - 12:37
I think the same thing. I mean, some of our content, I'm like, kids, you're never watching that. Like, no, no, it's not for you. Whose idea was that? It was my cousin's idea. So funny. So 

Danielle
12:37 - 12:43
funny. You know what? I'm sorry, really quick on the social media thing. I had no idea when 

Alex Howard
12:43 - 12:44
I 

Danielle
12:44 - 12:44
started. I 

Alex Howard
12:44 - 12:45
made my 

Danielle
12:45 - 13:11
first four videos on a total whim because I was talking to a friend who wanted to open up a relationship. And I was like, I'm going to write you a blog post. I wrote him a blog post. And I showed my husband super proud of my blog. And he's like, honey, it is 2022. What are you doing? Go put it on TikTok. I was like, yeah. Posted four videos on TikTok. The first three went viral. And within 48 hours, I had like 60,000 followers or something like 

Unknown Speaker
13:11 - 13:11
that. 

Danielle
13:11 - 13:14
Holy shit. Oh, my goodness. Good for you. Wow. Just shows the appetite is there. for 

Danielle
13:14 - 13:21
more of this information. I don't think that's quite right. I think it was like $60,000 within a week or two. 

Danielle
13:21 - 13:23
Listen, we're not going to back check you, Danielle. It's all good. 

Danielle
13:24 - 13:40
You pumped your tires, girl. You get it. But I think it's sort of just the trajectory was so quick so fast. I don't think I was mentally prepared for like what am I doing? What are the long-term consequences? Since then, we have set a lot of boundaries in 

Alex Howard
13:40 - 13:40
terms of 

Danielle
13:40 - 13:42
like what my content is, what is talked about, 

Alex Howard
13:43 - 13:43
you know, what we 

Danielle
13:43 - 13:53
tell the kids, what we don't in terms of, like, my social media. I've been working on a book for a long time. It's actually being shopped to publishers at the moment. Yay, 

Alex Howard
13:53 - 13:54
wonderful. 

Danielle
13:54 - 13:56
Congrats. Very exciting. Well, we don't 

Danielle
13:56 - 13:57
have any – we don't – 

Danielle
13:57 - 13:59
don't congrats 

Danielle
13:59 - 14:00
yet. You 

Danielle
14:00 - 14:03
wrote a book. I am going to congratulate you for that. 

Danielle
14:03 - 14:13
You sat down and wrote words. Okay, and shopped on proposal. Okay. But I think that there was a need there that I felt like I could solve. Like 

Alex Howard
14:13 - 14:14
there was a need. 

Danielle
14:14 - 14:24
There were so many people that for every hateful comment I get, for every 10 hate comments I get online, I get a direct message for someone being like, I have this question. My 

Alex Howard
14:24 - 14:24
partner brought it up. 

Danielle
14:25 - 14:47
I'm experiencing this. I've been in a marriage for 20 years to a man, and I feel like I'm bisexual. Like this is happening to our libidos. You know, I fell in love with someone. And I don't know what, like I, and I can't, and everyone starts, ends it with, and I don't have anyone I can talk to about this. And that is the biggest fuel for what I do that I've ever experienced it. And I will have to figure out how to balance that with what we tell our 

Alex Howard
14:47 - 14:48
children. So to 

Danielle
14:48 - 14:56
date, to answer your question, um, we have told my son and not my daughter. So my son is 11. He has actually met, um, 

Alex Howard
14:56 - 14:57
my husband's 

Danielle
14:57 - 15:01
ex-girlfriend and past girlfriend and, you know, 

Alex Howard
15:01 - 15:01
remembers 

Danielle
15:01 - 15:03
going on vacation with her like remembers 

Alex Howard
15:03 - 15:04
her remembers how much he 

Danielle
15:04 - 15:27
liked her and was able to say like oh okay I kind of get it um and I think for him you know he he he's he's of that age where he's like okay I can understand this um interestingly he totally turned to my mom at one point in time was like can three people get married and she was like what and I think my daughter's just not emotionally mature enough yet 

Alex Howard
15:27 - 15:29
yeah you know for her 

Danielle
15:29 - 15:32
you know we're like oh mom and dad are out with friends like we're we're hanging out with this 

Alex Howard
15:32 - 15:33
night we're 

Danielle
15:33 - 15:52
we're doing whatever um i hope and the way that i justify it to myself for better for worse because again i'm figuring this out as a mom as well is that i hope that my parents my my parents and my children i think sorry i was going to talk about parents in a second but my children especially will see me living the most authentic version of my life 

Amanda Silver
15:52 - 15:53
which 

Danielle
15:53 - 16:31
is i am a bisexual and i still get to date and i am writing a book and i'm creating content i am in a wonderful happy marriage and i love being a mom and i hope that by them seeing that i am doing all these different things and that is the whole package that is going to give them more than permission but is going to encourage them to live their most authentic version of their lives because they saw me do it they didn't see me trying to like shove myself into a role um and i think that's what i want for them and god i hope that no one else is telling them about my marriage and it's very possible that's going to happen and I am going to have to figure that out when I get there. 

Danielle
16:36 - 16:42
We've all got something that our kids are going to find out about and realize that we're not you know whatever that they had imagined us to be 

Alex Howard
16:42 - 16:46
and if you're a public and if you're sharing stuff online. 

Danielle
16:46 - 16:52
How do you manage the jealousy of your children experiencing things than without you and with a different partner 

Amanda Silver
16:52 - 16:54
because I think 

Alex Howard
16:54 - 16:55
oh you were also 

Alex Howard
16:55 - 16:55
there 

Danielle
16:55 - 16:56
oh my god that's adorable 

Alex Howard
16:56 - 16:58
okay I love that for you I was 

Alex Howard
16:58 - 16:59
just going to say 

Danielle
16:59 - 17:07
a lot of our listeners are going through divorce and there now is a step parent involved or there's blended families and they themselves are a step parent and so there's a lot of emotions 

Alex Howard
17:07 - 17:09
wrapped up 

Danielle
17:09 - 17:09
in 

Alex Howard
17:09 - 17:11
someone else being a parent someone else 

Danielle
17:11 - 17:20
being this really important role in their lives when you're not there and I I feel like that you kind of hit on that, but I love that you're vacationing all 

Danielle
17:20 - 17:23
together. That's adorable. I actually haven't experienced this. 

Danielle
17:23 - 17:24
So my husband and 

Danielle
17:24 - 17:28
I, our children have never been with one of us and one of our partners. 

Danielle
17:29 - 17:31
Okay. Without the other person. Okay. So we 

Danielle
17:31 - 17:52
had a vacation where it was me and my husband, and we surprised him with his girlfriend came and joined us. And it was adorably wholesome. Like, people are going to have, like, all these, like, crazy ideas. It was like, it was pool time, people. It was very cute. Probably helpful too. 

Alex Howard
17:53 - 17:58
Three adults? Two kids? Let me tell 

Danielle
17:58 - 18:12
you, there's sometimes I see these polycules and they're like, and I was like, five adults and three children. I was like, yeah, I get them. Smart. I like those numbers. I don't know how this math works, but so we just moved to be closer to my husband's sister and her 

Alex Howard
18:12 - 18:12
family. 

Danielle
18:13 - 18:20
and all of a sudden we're four adults and four kids and we're like that is way easier than two adults and two kids like how did that how does that math work but it does 

Alex Howard
18:20 - 18:24
it's parent math it totally does yeah yeah no 

Danielle
18:24 - 18:49
so tell yeah okay i'm curious okay if i were to tell you that you know um you know my either my my husband's girlfriend we're going to take the kids away or like i was going to go with a boyfriend or girlfriend and take the kids somewhere um i have no idea how i would react what do you what do you guys hear what do you hear from from people who are are going through the experiencing experience of their part their ex-partner's new partner 

Alex Howard
18:49 - 19:17
raising their kids yeah it's tricky i think it's hard especially in the beginning i think time makes it easier and especially if this person is a permanent fixture right i think we always talk about permanency like in our separation agreements that we do we don't we try and discourage people from introducing their children to people who are just, you know, a new partner, right? They have to sort of be someone who's going to be around for a while. And so I think that it's even still, I think for the other parent, it's hard for them to at 

Danielle
19:17 - 19:18
first sort 

Alex Howard
19:18 - 19:19
of accept it. 

Danielle
19:21 - 19:23
And depending how they met, if this is the affair partner that 

Alex Howard
19:23 - 19:24
they're now continuing 

Danielle
19:24 - 19:30
a relationship with, that there is that jealousy. There is the like, this is the relationship that broke up my life. 

Alex Howard
19:31 - 19:32
And now you guys are vacationing 

Danielle
19:32 - 19:35
together and I'm sitting at home crying. Like that can be tricky. 

Alex Howard
19:35 - 19:36
I see this 

Danielle
19:36 - 19:55
too. You get it. You can empathize for sure. But I think that's what excites me about this conversation is that it's like that isn't the only way. There are different options. Your family can be whatever your family can be. It doesn't have to limit to these boxes. 

Alex Howard
19:56 - 19:58
It's black and white. I think our society 

Alex Howard
19:58 - 20:12
is still like you get married, you stay married, and that's it. And there's no stepping out. There's no opening up. There's no alternative arrangements. But people are doing things differently. And, like, who's to say that their way is wrong if it works for them? And what 

Alex Howard
20:12 - 20:13
I hear from you 

Alex Howard
20:13 - 20:14
a lot is it's just 

Danielle
20:14 - 20:22
the willingness to actually be self-aware of what you want and then to communicate that to your partner. 

Alex Howard
20:23 - 20:23
And shouldn't 

Alex Howard
20:23 - 20:24
that be the basis 

Danielle
20:24 - 20:26
of every fucking relationship? 

Alex Howard
20:26 - 20:38
I think that's what it all comes down to is that if you're hiding it from your partner, there's a problem. right or from yourself or from yourself but as long as you're all consenting adults yeah who 

Danielle
20:38 - 20:46
the fuck cares what you do i know and if that actually makes for a healthier happier human that can then to 

Alex Howard
20:46 - 20:48
your point be a better parent and partner 

Danielle
20:48 - 20:56
and employee and contributor to this planet for the short little life that we have on it why the heck not absolutely 

Danielle
20:56 - 21:19
well and i also think adding to that So like kind of being able to articulate what you want and communicate that not only to yourself, to your partner, and like kind of figuring out what works for you. But then also being open to the changes over the course of a long-term partnership. Because I think, Alex, you were saying that, you know, you guys were seeing – I'm sorry, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're seeing divorces happen when the kids are 8 through 12. Is that right? 

Danielle
21:19 - 21:21
That's what I find the most typical, yeah. 

Danielle
21:22 - 21:26
There are phases in a long-term relationship that are just harder 

Alex Howard
21:26 - 21:28
than others where 

Danielle
21:28 - 21:51
you kind of need to be like, you know what? We're going to stop doing what everyone else tells us we're supposed to do and figure out what works for us. And I do think that as society, historically speaking, we have this sort of very set plan, this relationship escalator of this is how it's supposed to work. This is how it's supposed to look. And not just from like a religious and cultural perspective, but from like a legal perspective, 

Alex Howard
21:52 - 21:53
too. Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot 

Danielle
21:53 - 21:58
of legal things that also inform this, like, monogamous single 

Alex Howard
21:58 - 21:58
partner 

Unknown Speaker
21:58 - 22:02
all-time relationship to just be aware of. 

Danielle
22:02 - 22:17
I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying to be aware of them. And, like, one of the things I really encourage people to think about is, like, phases. It is okay to have a phase in your relationship that's, like, you know, where you change things up a bit. 

Alex Howard
22:17 - 22:17
You know, where 

Danielle
22:17 - 22:37
you're giving someone. You say, even if you're staying monogamous, like most people are monogamous because that is what works for most people. You know, but I think that in our open relationship, when I was saying we gift each other that night off a week. Imagine if you were to say to a monogamous relationship, gift your partner a night off. 

Amanda Silver
22:37 - 22:37
Yeah. 

Danielle
22:38 - 22:43
You know, gift them a night off for these years when the kids are in, when things are. 

Amanda Silver
22:44 - 22:44
Yeah. 

Danielle
22:45 - 22:59
You know, how can you support your partner to go in and make sure they get to be themselves? But get to not be mom for a moment and go pursue a new passion, a new activity. Maybe it's not water. Maybe it's watercolor. Maybe it's pole dancing. Who knows? Sure. 

Danielle
22:59 - 23:00
Who cares? 

Danielle
23:01 - 23:01
Who cares? Almost 

Alex Howard
23:01 - 23:05
like I always think of like people should create parenting plans 

Alex Howard
23:05 - 23:05
while they're 

Alex Howard
23:05 - 23:07
married and while they're in those crazy years 

Alex Howard
23:07 - 23:08
of raising 

Alex Howard
23:08 - 23:15
little kids. Because imagine if you knew that every other – it doesn't have to be the full weekend, but let's say it's every other Friday night or 

Alex Howard
23:15 - 23:15
Saturday night. 

Alex Howard
23:16 - 23:17
That's your night off. You're 

Alex Howard
23:17 - 23:19
not on duty. That's your time 

Alex Howard
23:19 - 23:21
to do whatever the heck you want. Yeah. 

Danielle
23:21 - 23:32
Like having that. And schedule a date night. Were your parenting plans? In the marriage. I think the number one best decision my husband has ever made is that since our son was born, we've had a regular date night. The babysitter is booked 

Danielle
23:32 - 23:33
months 

Danielle
23:33 - 23:38
in advance every week. Repeat. Yeah. I love it. I love it. And you're like, okay, we 

Amanda Silver
23:38 - 23:41
have this night. Because you're prioritizing your 

Danielle
23:41 - 24:33
relationship, but you're also prioritizing yourselves as individuals. And what you choose to do with your individual night off is really up to you, provided that obviously it's, you know, discussed within the family and everyone's on board with it. No, I've always shared this. My brother and sister-in-law, they, from the time she got pregnant, were like, okay, you take Fridays, I'll take Saturdays. So it's like, you know, you're putting that kid to sleep Friday night. You know, you're waking up with that kid Saturday morning. The other person doesn't do anything. So they're either going out or they're, you know, doing whatever, or they're there, but they're off duty. So there's not that guilt of like, oh, I should be helping, but I'd really let it sit on the couch. And it's worked so nicely for them. And I thought, oh, you've actually done what eventually we all put into a parenting plan when the marriage fails. Because you need to prioritize yourself first and foremost so that you can give back to the family and be all you can be. 

Danielle
24:33 - 24:39
I love this example so much. One of the things that I've also talked about is that I think that our relationship, it does feel like it's 50 

Amanda Silver
24:39 - 24:41
overall. But 

Danielle
24:41 - 24:43
the key to our freedom is that either of us can be 

Amanda Silver
24:43 - 24:44
100%. I 

Danielle
24:44 - 24:53
was talking about like going away for a couple days. The only reason I can do that is because my husband can fully take over the kids. I don't need to like prep meals in 

Alex Howard
24:53 - 24:54
advance. I don't need to 

Danielle
24:54 - 24:56
like write little stickers on the bottles of like what to do 

Amanda Silver
24:56 - 24:57
when. I've never 

Danielle
24:57 - 25:10
needed to do that. I can walk away and know that he's got it. And so much of that is just like, you know, he might do things differently than me, but like he's got it. I have a very capable, intelligent, incredible partner. He's got it. 

Amanda Silver
25:11 - 25:11
And 

Danielle
25:11 - 25:21
I think that one of the other, yeah, so I think that in of itself, like being able to be 100%, being able to like fully turn off. 

Alex Howard
25:22 - 25:34
Yeah, to recharge. But that's also your ability to give up some control. And I think for moms especially, that's a hard one to do because not all of, you know, other parents are able to be 100%. Oh, 

Danielle
25:35 - 25:40
the best parenting advice I ever got when we were pregnant with our first was don't be the expert. The 

Alex Howard
25:40 - 25:41
second you, right? 

Danielle
25:42 - 25:51
The second you decide you're the expert, your partner is not. Yeah. You're doing it all. You're teaching them. You're telling them how to do it. You're training them to do it the way you want. 

Danielle
25:51 - 25:55
It's not a partnership. It's not a partnership. It's not a partnership. Then you're mothering. Now you're mothering 

Danielle
25:55 - 26:23
everyone and you're resentful. You're burnt out. Your mental load is over the top. And guess what? You divorce. One quick question, if you still have a few minutes. you mentioned family law in terms of monogamy. I'm curious about like, would you ever encourage folks that are opening up a relationship like later on, maybe, or maybe from the beginning, I guess it doesn't really matter, to do some kind of like prenup, like to have a marriage contract 

Alex Howard
26:23 - 26:24
where it's like, oh, if you fall 

Danielle
26:24 - 26:35
in love with somebody else, they don't get half of your estate because, you know, I need that on the mom of your kid. Like, would you think about taking it to that extreme in terms of like the rules and the boundaries that you establish? 

Danielle
26:37 - 27:08
Oh, interesting. saying, huh, I've never thought about it before. I think that, okay, all right, here's my initial instinct, and I'm curious your thoughts. We have rules and agreements in our open relationship, and they constantly have to evolve. And one of the things that I talked to my mom about at one point in time was, like, you know, should we make, we were struggling, and I had this, and my husband and I were, like, I'm hanging on. I was, like, well, should we write a post now? You know, so like what would it look like 

Amanda Silver
27:08 - 27:09
if we got divorced? 

Danielle
27:10 - 27:20
And my mom gave a really interesting piece of advice. She was like, no, because then you've made an exit plan. You know, you've made an exit plan versus making a how do we make this work forever plan. 

Danielle
27:20 - 27:23
How do we find our way back instead? How do we find our way back? 

Danielle
27:23 - 27:48
And I think one of the things that's pretty cool about our rituals, our agreements that we have in our open relationship is that feels like our forever plan. You know, it's like how do we talk about the hard things? How do we communicate difficult stuff? How do we make that time to reconnect? It's not just making time to reconnect, but how do we make time to stay connected at all times? And then what is our ritual of reconnection if we ever disconnect? 

Amanda Silver
27:49 - 27:49
You know, how 

Danielle
27:49 - 27:57
are we supporting each other to live our biggest, fullest lives? Like those are the things that we talk about in kind of our agreements on a regular basis. 

Alex Howard
27:57 - 27:58
Yeah. 

Danielle
28:00 - 28:10
I feel like that's the forever plan. And I wonder sometimes if having an exit strategy is it's kind of like what we were talking about with social media. It's like, oh, that looks really 

Alex Howard
28:10 - 28:11
good. 

Danielle
28:11 - 28:11
Yeah. 

Alex Howard
28:11 - 28:14
And we're really clean 

Danielle
28:14 - 28:16
in that paperwork. 

Alex Howard
28:17 - 28:19
Yeah, definitely. I hear that. I hear that. People should have 

Alex Howard
28:19 - 28:24
a plan for how do we keep things together. Like that's – I mean, I guess I 

Danielle
28:24 - 28:31
would argue only that like isn't the plan when you say your vows, like until death do us part, kind of the 

Alex Howard
28:31 - 28:33
plan. But then there's no room 

Alex Howard
28:33 - 28:36
for change, I guess, is what Danielle is saying, is that these 

Alex Howard
28:36 - 28:37
things have to change. 

Alex Howard
28:37 - 28:40
It's like a living document almost. It's a living agreement 

Alex Howard
28:40 - 28:41
that as 

Alex Howard
28:41 - 28:50
your life changes, your needs are going to change and changing with it rather than, well, this is what you agreed to when we got married and it shall remain forever. But there is an argument to 

Danielle
28:50 - 28:59
say of negotiating hard things when the relationship's in a stable place. And this is, Alex, kind of going back to what I was saying, if anyone's going to open up their relationship, do it when you're in a healthy, 

Alex Howard
28:59 - 29:00
stable place. 

Amanda Silver
29:00 - 29:01
Because 

Danielle
29:01 - 29:02
you are opening yourself up to vulnerabilities. 

Alex Howard
29:03 - 29:03
And I wonder, 

Danielle
29:04 - 29:05
you know, I can see both sides, 

Alex Howard
29:06 - 29:06
which 

Danielle
29:06 - 29:14
is if you're, you feel like, okay, if we are, if trying to negotiate when we are at a point where we are angry and upset with each other 

Amanda Silver
29:14 - 29:15
is 

Danielle
29:15 - 29:19
really difficult. Like it is better in some ways to kind of figure out those agreements 

Danielle
29:19 - 29:20
early on when we're 

Danielle
29:20 - 29:23
healthy and happy. Yeah. I love, I 

Danielle
29:23 - 29:30
love a prenup for everyone. So that's why I ask is, and, and, and to be clear, I don't love one that you're doing at the 11th hour when like the, 

Alex Howard
29:31 - 29:31
you know, 

Danielle
29:31 - 29:54
one of you is about to walk down the aisle, but to sit down, because I think a lot of times like with, with losing, um, a lot of community and that church kind of vibe of, you know, premarital classes and parenting strategies, we go into these relationships again, going back to the beginning of our conversation. It's not intentional. You, oh, do you want kids? Yeah. Okay, cool. 

Alex Howard
29:54 - 29:56
Okay. That's the conversation 

Danielle
29:56 - 30:16
about our parenting. No, no. Anyone can be a mom. Anyone can be a dad. You bone once and boom, there you go. But what is your parenting strategy? How do you want to parent? How do you want to raise your children? What are your values? What are your morals? We love to do a family mission statement and we do it with the kids. We bring them involved. What is our family? Yeah. 

Alex Howard
30:16 - 30:17
What do we represent? 

Danielle
30:18 - 31:15
What do we want to put out in the world? We want to be kind. We want to be whatever that is. Again, And age dependent, of course. But like this is what, this is intentionality. This is how we're choosing to go into the world and to coexist in community. And so for me, I think when you're happiest, i.e. at the beginning of the relationship, you're choosing to marry someone, you're choosing to spend your life with this one person, to say, okay, and what does that look like? And if things go badly, here is, yes, an exit strategy. But, I mean, you know, hopefully you don't ever actually have to need it. But it forces couples to pause and think about what do I want? And that's an opportunity, I think, if you're opening up that can of worms to go, have we considered an open relationship? Have we considered a throuple? Have we considered whatever, you know, maybe we're asexual at some point. We're going to go through phases. Like, just to have these conversations that no one is having ever. 

Alex Howard
31:16 - 31:20
And so I wanted to ask you. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. angry. Alex, 

Danielle
31:20 - 31:25
you one of the other conversations that I don't feel like couples have enough, whether they're monogamous or not, is what counts as cheating? 

Alex Howard
31:26 - 31:27
Another great question. 

Amanda Silver
31:27 - 31:28
Yes. 

Danielle
31:29 - 31:32
That's not cheating. Watching porn counts as 

Alex Howard
31:32 - 31:33
cheating. 

Danielle
31:33 - 31:35
Talking to an ex on Facebook Messenger counts as 

Alex Howard
31:35 - 31:36
cheating. Following 

Danielle
31:36 - 31:38
her Instagram account counts as 

Alex Howard
31:38 - 31:40
cheating. That's a really good one. I think that 

Danielle
31:40 - 31:48
there are a lot of these things that do need to be discussed and shouldn't be taken for granted. 

Alex Howard
31:48 - 31:49
That would be one 

Danielle
31:49 - 31:51
that I would encourage you to throw into that. I love 

Alex Howard
31:51 - 31:56
it. What can I love? People think if it's not a physical interaction, then it's not cheating. 

Danielle
31:57 - 32:00
Oh, and I will tell you a ton of people that's like, oh, if it's emotional, that's cheating. 

Alex Howard
32:00 - 32:04
Yes. Emotional can be way more impactful 

Danielle
32:04 - 32:05
than even just 

Danielle
32:05 - 32:05
the physical. Well, yeah. 

Danielle
32:06 - 32:08
Okay. Well, I can make the argument, well, we're not, you know, 

Alex Howard
32:08 - 32:09
biologically, 

Danielle
32:10 - 32:14
we are non-monogamous. So then, but are we emotionally non-monogamous, 

Alex Howard
32:14 - 32:16
right? Like, if I can 

Danielle
32:16 - 32:42
say to you, well, biologically, you need to go spread your seed, and that to me is fine because that's being ruled by, you know, biology and evolution, and we have this, you know, completely societal construct of what we have decided relationships should look like today, but, you know, from an evolutionary standpoint, that's not where we are. So off you go, have as much sex as you want outside of the marriage, but heaven forbid you fall in love with somebody outside the marriage, right? Like there is, for each individual person. 

Alex Howard
32:42 - 32:46
Their own line in the sand. There is your own line in the sand. They all have their own line in the sand. 

Alex Howard
32:46 - 32:46
Exactly. 

Danielle
32:47 - 32:58
And nobody, you're right, Danielle, nobody's having that conversation because nobody wants to think about it. But I think it's like if I say it, then there's a chance it's going to happen. Okay, but there's a chance it's going to happen anyways. So let's 

Alex Howard
32:58 - 33:08
at least talk about it and have a plan. And talking about talking about it, what would you say to people who are maybe in a relationship and they are considering opening it up, but they don't know how 

Danielle
33:08 - 33:08
to broach 

Alex Howard
33:08 - 33:10
the subject with their partner? 

Danielle
33:10 - 33:14
Yeah. Well, I'm going to first do a shameless plug for 

Alex Howard
33:14 - 33:15
my 

Danielle
33:15 - 33:20
content on So I have a couple's guide to opening up. It's about six 

Alex Howard
33:20 - 33:20
videos that 

Danielle
33:20 - 33:27
talks through how to have the initial conversation, how to think about opening up in phases, how to think about timing, 

Alex Howard
33:28 - 33:28
how to set 

Danielle
33:28 - 33:31
initial boundaries and rules, a process for doing so, how 

Alex Howard
33:31 - 33:32
to manage jealousy, 

Danielle
33:32 - 33:35
and then a couple of other kind of like food for thought. 

Alex Howard
33:36 - 33:36
And the 

Danielle
33:36 - 34:04
piece that I give, the thing that say over and over to anyone considering an open relationship because I often have someone ask me saying, I want to bring this up to my partner. I don't know how. And so the thing I always say is know your why. Why do you want to consider an open relationship in the first place? Is it because your libidos aren't aligned? Is it because you think you might be bisexual? Is it because you met someone else? Is it because you just want to have a few extra experiences because you met your partner when you were 18 and both virgins? Like what is your why 

Amanda Silver
34:04 - 34:05
for opening 

Danielle
34:05 - 34:13
a relationship? And go to your partner with that problem because that's the thing that you want to solve. And then your partner becomes part of the solution. 

Amanda Silver
34:14 - 34:14
Because when 

Danielle
34:14 - 34:24
you go to your partner and say, I want to be in an open relationship, you're going to them with the solution. Versus making them part of figuring out what's going to work with you. Because an 

Alex Howard
34:24 - 34:24
open 

Danielle
34:24 - 34:47
relationship is one solution. It is not the only one. And there are so many other ways to solve for all of these different challenges that, you know, that I'm seeing, that I'm hearing people talk about. And so that's my number one thing. Know your why. Go to your partner with the problem and let them be part of the solution because then it kind of becomes an adventure together. Again, 

Alex Howard
34:48 - 34:48
it 

Danielle
34:48 - 35:00
might not be an open adventure. It might be, oh, we're monogamous, but we're going to go flirt at a bar and reignite this excitement. Or like, we're going to go skydiving because we need an adrenaline rush. Like there 

Alex Howard
35:00 - 35:02
are other options. 

Danielle
35:03 - 35:05
I love that. Okay, so Substack, 

Danielle
35:05 - 35:07
is that open commitment on 

Alex Howard
35:07 - 35:07
Substack? 

Danielle
35:08 - 35:10
You can find me as openly committed across all my channels. 

Danielle
35:11 - 35:13
Okay. And my website is opencommitment. 

Danielle
35:13 - 35:33
You can go there pretty easily. And then I'm on TikTok and Instagram as Openly Committed, where I share a lot of kind of reels and videos with my one to one and a half minute thoughts, stories, recommendations. And I'm pretty active on Instagram stories with a little bit of behind the scenes 

Alex Howard
35:33 - 35:35
and some more 

Danielle
35:35 - 35:39
not as edited off the cuff thoughts as well 

Alex Howard
35:39 - 35:58
as weekly Q&As. Amazing. I love it. Thank you so much, Danielle. This has been very eye-opening. This has been a really, really wonderful conversation. And I hope it leads to more conversations for our listeners and getting people to have those tough challenges and maybe look inward and realize that maybe what they're doing isn't working and there are other alternatives. So thank you. There are so 

Danielle
35:58 - 36:22
many alternatives out there. And, I mean, that is kind of the cool – I love getting to talk to you about this. I feel like I'm learning about divorce. I have this fear of divorce, I think. Sure. And obviously most people probably do. And I know that there's so many kind of misunderstandings or preconceived notions around open relationships. So it's so cool to get to have a conversation with you ladies. That is not a minute and a half long. 

Unknown Speaker
36:24 - 36:24
Thank you, Danielle. 

Unknown Speaker
36:24 - 36:25
Thank you again. 

Danielle
36:25 - 36:26
We appreciate 

Danielle
36:26 - 36:27
you. Take care. So good. 

Alex Howard
36:34 - 36:53
This episode was written and created by Alex Howard and Amanda Silver. Produced, edited, and engineered by RTF Productions. Make sure to rate and review our show if you loved it to give us a follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you stream your podcasts. Stay up to date on all upcoming episodes. Thanks for listening, and go easy on us. We're not your ex.