The Mind-Body Couple

Taming the Spooky Beast: Reprocessing Chronic Pain/Symptoms Through Neuroplasticity and Mind-Body Strategies

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 83

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Discover the secrets of taming the "spooky beast" of chronic pain/symptoms as we unravel the intricate dance between our brains and our bodies. Ever wondered how your brain's misinterpretation of signals keeps you ensnared in a relentless cycle of discomfort? We'll demystify the science of nervous system survival responses like fight, flight, fawn, and freeze and explore how these reactions can exacerbate chronic symptoms. We'll illuminate how fostering a sense of safety can help break free from this cycle, offering a path toward healing inspired by the insights of Alan Gordon.

Join us as we unpack the transformative power of shifting beliefs to foster healing. We dive into the world of pain reprocessing therapy, illustrating how cognitive safety messages can be your guiding light away from fear and frustration. Learn to retrain your brain to reinterpret bodily sensations, replacing fear with a mindset of safety and opening the door to personal exploration. Through this episode, we aim to equip you with knowledge and strategies to empower your healing journey, encouraging a shift from danger to safety in your perception of pain.

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married!

In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were neuroplastic, not structural. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, an in-depth online course that provides a step-by-step process for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Disclaimer: The information provided on this podcast is for general in...

Healing Chronic Pain and Symptoms

Speaker 1

Welcome to the MindBodyCouple podcast .

Speaker 2

I'm Tanner Murtaugh and I'm Anne Hampson . This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms . If you need support with your healing , you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapyca or purchase our online course at embodycommunitycom to access in-depth education , somatic practices , recovery tools and an interactive community focused on healing Links in the description our Halloween episode .

Speaker 1

That's it . I guess it is our Halloween episode . Halloween is soon , it's approaching .

Speaker 2

It's approaching .

Speaker 1

Yeah , as you , you all probably know , we have young kids and so we love and hate halloween at the same time , uh yeah , it's , it's fun it's fun , it's just stressful I think I've a lot to do yeah , I've watched the movie hocus pocus and hocus pocus too which is not as good yeah , it's not as good . No , it was all right .

Speaker 2

I'm glad they did a second one . I've watched those movies like 20 times at this point in October .

Speaker 1

Yeah , that happens . Leading up to every kind of like event or holiday , this intense , repetitive movie watching . I'm sure some of you might relate to this .

Speaker 2

It's adorable , though , because our four-year-old daughter is like witch show . Witch show , like she wants to . She struggles to say hocus pocus . Yeah , it's a hard word to say it is . I practiced a few times before we came on . Good , there you go . Good job , tanner , I know . Wow , so we have a spooky sale .

Speaker 1

Yes of a spooky sale . Yes , In the , you know , in light of the fact that it is Halloween coming it is a spooky sale A spooky Spooky .

Speaker 2

Spooky sale and this is for our course , the somatic safety method . Yeah , it's going to be 25% off from October 29th , beginning first thing October 29th , right until end of day , November 2nd .

Speaker 1

Yeah , totally .

Speaker 2

Don't be afraid , we can heal together .

Speaker 1

Yes , yes , I like that .

Speaker 2

Now our topic today . We're going to dive right into this how to stop the spooky beast of pain and symptoms . Yes , now spooky . We're using this for halloween , but we also want to be clear here . We know pain and symptoms can be way more than spooky for people , so thanks for clarifying this you know I didn't want to like feel like we're invalidating people by saying spooky . Yeah , I know it was a halloween pun . That's what we all know .

Speaker 2

I just I feel like you don't need to go to this I'm a therapist I'm a therapist , I'm worried about people's feelings and , yeah , this is an important part of being a therapist it's funny you guys listening , because this is me and tanner's dynamic .

Speaker 1

Not that I don't worry about people , I totally do , but , tanner , I have to you tell Tanner , it's okay .

Speaker 2

You're okay , tanner , I have to rein a bit of it . Yeah , it's the people pleaser in me . It comes alive a little bit sometimes .

Speaker 1

Yes .

Speaker 2

You know , yes . So remember , pain and physical symptoms occur because our brain believes you're not safe . The brain creates these symptoms when it is misreading safe signals from the body . It's afraid of what you're doing , of what you're being exposed to , and because you're feeling overall dysregulated .

Speaker 1

Yes .

Speaker 2

Essentially it's feeling spooked Right . Yes , Essentially it's feeling spooked Right , and there can be , of course , past things from far in our past that cause this kind of prolonged dysregulation . But that's what we're going to talk about today and when we talk about nervous system survival responses , yes , and we're going to explain them . So don't worry people , but fight , flight fawn .

Speaker 1

Fawn is a new one , If anyone's like . What did I just hear there ?

Speaker 2

We're throwing fawn in and freezer shutdown and we often have these responses to our actual symptoms and this actually feeds the beast . It feeds the beast of chronic pain and symptoms , feeds the beast . It feeds the beast of chronic pain and symptoms . And it's a very kind of Halloween episode , because we want to talk about these responses that we have to our symptoms that spook us more and that perpetuate them forward .

Speaker 1

Yeah Well , and that's a really good point , and it's important to keep talking about it and keep reflecting on this idea that this kind of dysregulation or fear around the symptoms , and then there's fear piled on to fear , piled on to fear , that keep it going and it's important to really take a look at that .

Speaker 2

Yeah , now the good news is we can shift to safety in our response , we can take away the energy that feeds pain or physical symptoms .

Speaker 1

Yes .

Speaker 2

And we can starve it of its life force . And it's also very Halloween-y what we're doing here , you know . Good , Just really hammering home that it's .

Speaker 1

I think everybody's really impressed that you keep bringing in this Halloween theme right now .

Speaker 2

Really yeah , I'm getting after it . You know that you keep bringing in this Halloween theme right now . I'm really yeah , I'm getting after it , you know , and if you've been learning about MindBody Approach- maybe listen to our podcast .

Speaker 2

You've probably heard of the pain-fear cycle . Yes , this comes from Alan Gordon , the creator of pain reprocessing therapy . Now at our clinic we talk about it with a bit of a different terminology , but we want to give credit to Alan Gordon . Yeah , we discuss it as the sensitization cycle because we include the nervous system states in it and we understand this , because it's more than just fear . It can be fear in different forms and it's this nervous system dysregulation that keeps things going .

Speaker 1

Yes .

Speaker 2

And this cycle can go on and on and on . I've seen people caught in this cycle for decades . Right For myself , this was definitely driving my symptoms by the end of it . Essentially , you understand you have pain or physical symptoms and then , in response to pain or physical symptoms , you're human , so you respond with fight , flight free , shut down energy , and that actually causes your brain and nervous system to feel even more in danger , more dysregulated , and it produces more pain and symptoms . Yes , and the cycle just goes on and on .

Speaker 1

Yes .

Speaker 2

And you know we typically respond by going into these defense states to pain or symptoms Like . This is a normal human response when we feel something unpleasant .

Speaker 1

Right , and so it's important , if you recognize that you're in this or you've been in this , that it makes sense why you're in this , and we need to learn to have compassion towards ourselves and not beat ourselves up or punish ourselves for this .

Speaker 2

Yes , we don't want people judging themselves for going into these defense states , because this is normal .

Speaker 1

Yes .

Speaker 2

And you know I want to break down kind of these four defense states , survival responses we're talking about . We talk about fight . Yes , Some people respond this way I did at first to my physical pain . For sure this can look like frustration , anger , trying to push through it , like pushing yourself to do more even though you're in pain and trying to fix it . For some people they have this flight energy . I've been known for that . That's definitely a place I can go pretty easily and we can respond with fear . That's definitely a place I can go pretty easily and we can respond with fear , fixation , anxiety , seeking excessive treatments to get done . We also include FON because this can be a response that we see with the people we work with . So instead , like , imagine , like , if you're having pain or physical symptoms , instead of caring for ourselves or our needs while we're in pain , we respond in this dysregulated way by trying to get approval from others or appeasing others .

Speaker 1

Okay .

Speaker 2

I see this often with people where this is the behaviors that they typically engage in when they get dysregulated .

Speaker 1

Do you have an example , maybe , of how that might look ?

Speaker 2

Yeah , so this could look well . Well , there's a lot of different ways it could look , um , but especially with with the fawn response , I've seen people where they have a pain flare . And you know , when you have a pain flare , some strategic avoidance , caring for yourself , giving messages , safety is vital . But instead of that response , they get so dysregulated by the pain flare that now they're still kind of pushing through , taking care of their family , going to work , appeasing their boss , like they almost respond when they get dysregulated by engaging in this kind of fallen behavior .

Speaker 1

Essentially , Okay , so not caring for themselves ?

Speaker 2

Exactly yeah . Or kind of listening to the pain a little bit just pushing on Exactly , they don't put their needs first and they still engage in kind of this fawn response to things .

Speaker 1

Something I think can be confusing about that is that if we don't want to react first to the pain , like we don't right , there can be this element of like I'm gonna move forward , but we need to kind of take care of ourselves . So is it a balancing game , or because I think some people might hear that and be like . Well , I shouldn't give the pain power and I should still live my life yeah , and I think to some degree that's okay .

Speaker 2

There's a difference between living life , leaning into positive experiences , expanding our life in a meaningful way , and having a fond response where you're now just appeasing everyone around you . You're seeking approval , you're , you're essentially you get . You get what I mean like there's a very different motive behind these behaviors ?

Speaker 1

okay , well , and that's something to think about , then , um , if you are listening and you relate to this of like okay , what is behind it , because I think that can get a bit confusing sometimes .

Speaker 2

Yeah , because even with exposure work , when you're expanding your world , I want people to do it from a place of love , a love care , support for themselves . They're pushing themselves a little bit into discomfort but , it's from this place of love . When we're engaging in things like perfectionism , people pleasing , appeasing , that's coming from a place of fear .

Speaker 1

And that's important to know , like if we're exposing or pushing through , if that's underneath it .

Speaker 2

Yeah , yeah , now this last defense response is the freeze and or shutdown , and this can look like despair , immobilization , shutdown , hopeless , helpless , numbing , kind of avoiding behaviors taking place . And see , what most people do when they have pain or symptoms is try to fix it , avoid it or to change the pain or symptoms . That's what we're doing , and you know , when we get physically injured , that's what people typically do they ice it , they rest it . But it doesn't work , typically with symptoms that are neuroplastic . It just keeps you in that sensitization cycle , and so instead we need to use brain retraining practices to change the nervous system , responses , emotions and our thinking about our symptoms . So we don't need to change the pain or physical symptoms .

Speaker 2

We need to change the response that's taking place . Yes , and today , you know , in this episode . So this episode is not three hours long . We're going to focus more on the cognitive changes . Now I want to be clear this is just one area , because working with the nervous system somatically , I think , is very essential . We do this with clients and , in our course , working with emotions , starting to increase behaviors and reduce avoidance all of that's key to break the sensitization cycle .

Speaker 2

But we can actually start to change our thinking to develop safer responses that can support us in eliminating neuroplastic pain or symptoms yes and so one of the big things that we're focused on right from day one when we're meeting with someone is creating new beliefs about your body , pain or symptoms .

Speaker 1

Yes , and this is vital , and so because I've seen people sometimes struggle with the belief around it and that's always impacted their recovery , and so we this is a piece really to pay attention to i've'm like can I change my beliefs ? Can I really learn and educate around neuroplastic pain and symptoms and understand this in terms of my own story ?

Speaker 2

Yeah , and that's why we made this podcast , because we want people to educate themselves about neuroplastic pain and symptoms .

Shifting Beliefs and Fostering Healing

Speaker 2

The education is key . Yes , right back to Dr Sarno , that's what he talked about like . Education is key because people need to understand . My body's not physically damaged , my body's not hurt in some way .

Speaker 1

I'm actually okay well , if we understand that , that is like the jumping off point to then start shifting those beliefs and understanding the neuroscience right .

Speaker 2

right , it shows us that , you know , through sensitization , it can generate a lot of different pain and physical symptoms in the absence of damage or disease in the body . And so , coming to understand , your symptoms are neuroplastic , your body's not perfectly damaged , it's just essential . You know , we really want to foster that belief that healing our chronic pain and symptoms is possible . This is the other thing that we want to foster is that it's not just that your symptoms are neuroplastic , but that healing is possible .

Speaker 1

Yes , and that can be hard . That can be hard at the beginning of the journey , it can be hard in the middle of the journey , and so we understand that the more usually I see people dive into understanding this and education around this , it's a bit easier to start to believe that they can get better yeah and we often go off the criteria for neuroplastic pain and symptoms from pain reprocessing therapy .

Speaker 2

We covered this , our second episode , so if you're like what there's criteria for neuroplastic symptoms , go back to episode two . It's all outlined there and that's really helpful because we need to help the logical parts of our brain understand . Hey , we're actually okay .

Speaker 1

Yes .

Speaker 2

Now the next thing is developing cognitive safety messages . This is another big part of pain reprocessing therapy . You know , fearful , frustrated , despairing thoughts about our pain or symptoms can actually worsen the sensations over time .

Speaker 1

I think you should really say that again and like really let that sink in for people , because it's really important , I think , to understand that yeah , because people don't think to change this right away .

Speaker 2

But fearful , frustrated , despairing thoughts about your pain or symptoms can actually worsen the sensations over time .

Speaker 1

I've talked with people that have like tried to step outside and be curious of how often they're having these type of thoughts about their pain or symptoms , and they realize it's going on constantly , all day long there there can be this obsessive preoccupation , and that's the thing is .

Speaker 2

At first , I think people were very conscious of it when they start to do it , but over months or years it just becomes what people do yes , it becomes very automatic .

Speaker 1

Same with scanning the body .

Speaker 2

Looking for danger is automatic as well that this relates back to our um , our brain retraining episode . We did . I think it was five or six episodes ago . Yeah , don't lctt , instead shift such an awful name .

Speaker 1

But do you have to explain ?

Speaker 2

what that means right now . It means don't look , check , think or talk . Instead shift , and we're shifting to safety . We're not going to outline it all here , but that's essentially what we're doing . We're moving people away from the thinking , because when I was in like widespread pain , yeah you know this you probably have not great memories of of myself at this time .

Speaker 1

I was so obsessed I was thinking about it 80 or 90 percent of my day I remember , and I and I remember how much that consumed you tanner like and how overwhelming that was , and then how hard it , which would be even a shift out of that into kind of safer beliefs yeah , and so using brain retraining , yeah , we can start to change our thoughts about our symptoms by utilizing these cognitive messages of safety .

Speaker 2

So we have some examples here that Anne has agreed to read .

Speaker 1

Oh my gosh , I would love to read Tanner , but I just want to mention that you did just throw that on me . Right now You're not being very truthful with people . I'm just trying to pass the ball to you . All right , I know I'm okay .

Speaker 2

My brain is just misinterpreting normal and safe sensations in my body .

Speaker 1

That's a good one . I see how my symptoms are inconsistent , moving around and triggered by emotions inconsistent , moving around and triggered by emotions . This shows me it's neuroplastic and my body is healthy and capable . As I read these , I just want to say , maybe see if you relate to any of them , if any resonate for you , or if any don't , that's okay . We just wanted to throw a couple out there . I don't need to control or change these sensations . There's nothing to fix or figure out . My muscles and tendons are healthy . My nerves and ligaments are perfectly intact . My brain is just sensitized and overprotective . It's physically safe to move this way . And then , lastly , I don't need to like the sensations .

Speaker 2

I just need to remember they're safe . That was some good reading Anne .

Speaker 1

Yeah , thank you , I feel that .

Speaker 2

I'm hoping it was soothing . You have a soothing , soothing sounding voice .

Speaker 1

I do .

Speaker 2

It's really good .

Speaker 1

Actually , I just want to say on our somatic safety course , I do a lot of meditation , so if you like my voice , there's a lot of it on there . Yeah , and there's tanners , but I think people would prefer my meditations .

Speaker 2

You have a soothing voice . I do . I like it . This was like a snapshot of it .

Speaker 1

But yeah , why did you want people to hear those safety messages , tanner ?

Speaker 2

You know , I think it's figuring out , because these are just examples and sometimes you can use your neuroplastic symptom evidence to help these land a bit more . Yeah Right , like for myself , I constantly was telling myself I know this is triggered by stress . My symptoms move around all over the place . They're very inconsistent . For this reason I know my symptoms are neuroplastic and my body's physically safe , like that's a way you can tie in evidence . But these are just examples . Like I really suggest people , when you're using cognitive messages of safety , is finding the ones that land to some degree for you . You may not fully believe them , but you don't want to give yourself the ones that you believe the least .

Speaker 1

Right , right . And so in this list , like , say , you didn't know where to start and you had the list that we just read out and you're like , okay , I'll take something from there , Take something that you feel is most believable to you , and then in time it's a bit easier to form your own kind of safety message that works for you .

Speaker 2

Yeah , and then you're using these messages of safety consistently when you notice yourself having negative thoughts about your symptoms or your body , and this can help your brain in rewiring . It's an essential step and while we're not diving into more the body focus side and we focus on that a lot somatic side I love that side , but the other part of this is also it's important . That's why we talked about fight , flight , fawn , freeze or shutdown , because we also need nervous system regulation , and so we have lots of podcast episodes on that , lots of youtube content that people can check out , um , and there's lots obviously in our somatic safety method course , somatic being in the name , and so really , to wrap up here , I really want people to remember that when you're feeling yourself in that sensitization cycle , when your pain and symptoms and dysregulation is caught in this spiral , first you want to catch this happening .

Speaker 1

The quicker the better .

Speaker 2

Yes , you let this go on all day . It's harder to pull back .

Speaker 1

But if that's where you're at , that's not like a horrible place to be either . So I tell people to reflect on their day and be curious have I been in this ? And then apply safety messaging .

Speaker 2

So that's okay , yeah it happens , it gets away from us sometimes , myself included , and it's just reflecting on how could I be aware of this more quickly next time ? Second , give yourself a strong safety message that helps you remember that you're safe and even though this is difficult , unpleasant and definitely not preferred we don't love our sensations you are fundamentally safe . And then , third , move towards a safety signal in your environment . This could be a supportive relationship , using maybe a body-focused practice breath , work , processing of emotions and every time you shift from dysregulation to safety in the face of pain or symptoms , you're starving the beast of pain and symptoms of its spooky life force .

Speaker 1

Wow , I like how you tied spooky into the very end . Yeah , he's looking very proud of himself right now .

Speaker 2

He's like huh , yes that wasn't me , that was alex oh , good job , alex producer alex ah he's all over the spookiness .

Speaker 1

Yes .

Speaker 2

And so , over time , this can shrink your pain symptom system back to the size it's meant to be , and we do believe people can do this .

Speaker 1

Yeah , totally . And so this Halloween , as we predict for us , it's going to feel a bit stressful , it's going to feel a bit overwhelming . I think we're going to have like kids in tears . What are you going to notice about your nervous system , tanner ?

Speaker 2

I already prepped on Halloween . I got like an hour and a half block before the kids come home when it says in my calendar relax , do not book anything .

Speaker 1

Smart Ah , I like that . So you're kind of anticipating this might be dysregulating for you , this might be a lot , and so you're already creating safety before the spookiness begins .

Speaker 2

I learned long ago and I'm still learning .

Speaker 1

You are learning still Tanner , Wow Sorry . This is like so mean , this is like one of those podcasts . I apologize , this is like going me .

Speaker 2

I apologize , it's just like going . I swear me and Anna are in a good place right now .

Speaker 1

I just need to do this when .

Speaker 2

I was and I am still learning this , but I learned long ago I can't expect my kids to be regulated if I'm dysregulated .

Speaker 1

It's been a big lesson for you .

Speaker 2

It has the regulation's got to come for me yes , yes , interesting and so I I imagined , as I put this break in my calendar , I imagined my son after he ate like 20 pieces of candy and his sugar crash started to happen , oh yeah , and I just thought about like I got to be really regulated in that moment .

Speaker 1

Wow , there you go . Well , thank you for that . I'm on it , as you know , the mother in this scenario . I'm glad you're thinking about that .

Speaker 2

I'm on it , Anne Good for you , tanner , there you go . Yeah Well , happy Halloween everyone .

Speaker 1

Happy Halloween .

Speaker 2

And we'll talk to you next week .

Speaker 1

Talk to you next week . Talk to you next week . Thanks for listening . For more free content , check out the links for our YouTube channel , instagram and Facebook accounts in the episode description .

Speaker 2

We wish you all healing .