The Mind-Body Couple

Overcoming Medical Trauma: Understanding Its Impact on Chronic Pain and Illness

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 97

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Imagine navigating the complexities of a challenging week marked by your child's illness and a sudden power outage. That's precisely what we faced recently, and it highlighted how stress can make life seem all the more serious. Join us as we unpack personal experiences and the often unspoken issue of medical trauma—a significant form of trauma that's largely overlooked in the healthcare system. We shine a light on its profound impact on individuals and families, including our own journey, emphasizing how trauma is not merely the event but the lingering nervous system response that can exacerbate chronic pain and illness.

This episode takes you through the emotional and physical rollercoaster experienced before, during, and after medical procedures. We delve into common reactions like fight, flight, and freeze, and how these can manifest as anxiety or dissociation, particularly for those battling chronic pain. We explore the cycle of anxiety and heightened responses that can make even routine medical appointments daunting. Discover the critical role of psychological preparation in preventing or reducing medical trauma and why recognizing symptoms is crucial for effective healing. Tune in to better understand the complex web between trauma and delayed recovery and how to navigate it for a healthier future.

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married! In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were occurring due to learned brain pathways and nervous system dysregulation. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make gradual changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, which is an in-depth online course that provides step-by-step guidance for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Also check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Discl...

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the MindBodyCouple podcast.

Speaker 2:

I'm Tanner Murtaugh and I'm Anne Hampson. This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms. If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapyca or purchase our online course at embodycommunitycom to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools and an interactive community focused on healing.

Speaker 1:

Links in the description.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back. You know, last week if you didn't check out the episode we talked about our experience with the stomach flu, which was 10 months ago. It was a long time ago. And then that night our son got sick to his stomach. I was like what are the odds?

Speaker 1:

I know we jinxed it I think we did too, and there was a bit of pain and fear when that happened.

Speaker 2:

There was yeah, but I used the lessons that I learned last time.

Speaker 1:

Actually, tanner, did I have to vouch for this? You were like, since we had just talked about it, it was like fresh in your mind. Yeah, yeah, good for you, tenor it's like I didn't.

Speaker 2:

I didn't let the fear grow I didn't obsess yeah, I accepted it. I was like I'm gonna get sick. Probably I really didn't.

Speaker 1:

But yes, luckily it was short-lived. Yeah, it was yeah.

Speaker 2:

So and our power went out for oh yes, it was a bad week last week.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it was Our power went out and, like usually, I work with clients like virtually from my home office. I'm running to our community office and then we're trying to manage the kids and the kids that were sent home from school early, and then we're trying to manage the kids and the kids that were sent home from school early and it was a disaster.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we had quite the weekend.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but we made it through. Hopefully don't jinx it for the weekend, Tanner.

Speaker 2:

No, this weekend you're going to experience carefree Tanner.

Speaker 1:

Oh yes, Maybe some of you know carefree Tanner makes an appearance sometimes.

Speaker 2:

Once in a while carefree tanner makes an appearance. Sometimes once in a while carefree tanner. Sometimes I'm doing my best to have carefree tanner come out more yes but you know, there's one thing I'm really good at and I find a lot of people with with neuroplastic pain and symptoms may relate to this. Maybe not, but from what? From what I've seen, I'm really good at making life serious.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you really are Well, and it was hard this week. Life felt serious, but it was extra serious, I think, for you.

Speaker 2:

It was more serious for me than it was for you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but you know what, Tanner, when it's more serious for you, then it just naturally ends up being more serious for me.

Speaker 2:

I know.

Speaker 1:

In a not good way.

Speaker 2:

So this weekend, carefree household, all right, we're doing it, okay. So in terms of today, yes. Not very much a carefree topic.

Speaker 1:

No, I was going to say we're kind of pivoting to a hard topic.

Speaker 2:

We are pivoting to a hard topic and I think it's important and we just kind of talked about being carefree. You can't force being carefree. We want more of that energy.

Speaker 1:

We do Like we want more of the— Like you're not forcing it, you're going to try.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like we want to work towards, you know, having more pleasant moments, taking the pressure off. But some parts of healing are very serious and it's hard. I empathize with people and today's topic is it is a serious topic. We're going to talk about medical trauma and chronic pain and illness.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and we've mentioned this before in previous podcasts, but we think it's an important topic to kind of spend some more time on, because I actually think it's rarely discussed. It's kind of a lesser known topic.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting because we work in the area of chronic pain, chronic illness and as a result, like a lot of people, have medical trauma and I think some people identify, but a lot of people they don't, they miss it, it's missed.

Speaker 2:

And this makes sense because it's so normal in our society to get medical help or medical treatments, or even surgery is very normal and so, even though it's unfortunate, when we get surgery it's like, I think, a lot of us. We don't mean to invalidate the experience, but we're just kind of taught like this is part of living life.

Speaker 1:

Totally. It's very normalized and so I think as a society, we think, okay, well, this should be normal and whatever I need to bounce back, or I should have a certain experience with that Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know I think this is a really useful topic. So even if you think I don't think I have medical trauma, like really tune in. We're going to explain some signs and symptoms as we go. First, a bit of a definition. You know, medical trauma, as we said, a really common category of trauma that a lot of times is unrecognized by physicians or therapists and adequate treatment is rarely provided, and so it really can be defined as this somatic, psychological and cognitive stress response following a medical procedure. Yeah, and we've talked lots on trauma, I really like Peter Levine, the creator of Somatic Experiencing, his definition of trauma in that trauma is not the event that occurred but the nervous system response to that event. So trauma is this like prolonged dysregulation in the nervous system that can look like fight, flight, freeze and or shutdown in terms of response, yeah, and when you talk about that definition of response, it's not uncommon for us to have that type of response following a medical procedure.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and I know in our family like we've had our own experience with medical trauma, as we've shared. If you're a new listener, we'll explain this briefly but we've shared lots about this, like over time, just that both of our kids were incredibly premature. Yeah, to give context, our kids were born, our daughter a little earlier, but about six months. Yes, into the pregnancy and you were hospitalized for quite a while, before even the birth.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And I think the first time around we didn't really understand how serious it was. This is the thing about me and Anne is sometimes we're. We can be naive. Yeah, and to give context, when we were going to have a baby, me and Anne knew nothing about babies. It's not like me and Anne had babysat I had never held a baby.

Speaker 1:

I had never held a baby either.

Speaker 2:

When our son came home, our friend came over to our house and taught us how to hold the baby.

Speaker 1:

I know, actually that's a sideways, a segue for a minute, but that's exactly how we approached getting a dog as well, but anyway, we're being carefree, we're trying, yes, it just doesn't work out well.

Speaker 1:

But that experience. So, yeah, I think you're outlining my experience with medical trauma a little bit. And one thing I want to say, and I think some women listening to this would probably agree, that having babies and giving birth and that process is so normalized in society and it's like you have the baby, you give birth, you're in, you're out that same day for some people and you're just expected to kind of go on with life and this idea that this can be traumatic or overwhelming or nervous system dysregulating isn't talked about a lot. And so for my story, I spent a bunch of time in the hospital because I had preeclampsia, which happens in pregnancies with both my kids, eclampsia, which happens in pregnancies with both my kids, and little did I realize until after the birth of my son, my first child, how dangerous that experience actually was. And he was born very early and he was also born because I wasn't doing well in my health, so we needed to kind of deliver. It was after that that I started to have a bit of a trauma response that I didn't actually realize at the time was happening until hindsight and reflection. And I spent a lot of time I think the time that he was in the NICU, which is just intensive care for babies. He was there for a couple of months. I spent a lot of that time very terrified for my own health.

Speaker 1:

Now, with preeclampsia, once you give birth typically not always, but typically you're okay and you're healthy again and out of the woods. But I couldn't believe that I was so traumatized by my experience and so overwhelmed. And I had just had a baby, so I wasn't feeling that great. I was terrified that something was wrong and I presented to the hospital many, many times out of fear and anxiety that something was wrong in my body and it felt that way, it very much felt that way. Fear was very real and also sometimes, after that experience and when you have a baby, you also feel a bit dropped by the medical system, like they're like see you later, you're okay now, which I was. But that was also very difficult for me too, as like, oh, how can I be okay? You know when last week my organs were shutting down? So it was very difficult and it took a long time to realize that that was quite a bit of a traumatic experience for me, yeah, and that was.

Speaker 2:

It was a tough time, yes, period that you went through and that we went through as a family and I think I think again, like a lot of people, and the medical system, it's almost minimized. Yeah, these events and there was that shift of like they were so focused on your health before birth, yes, and then, as soon as the baby was born, you were out the door and they were very focused on our son, which makes sense. But like it was very stark, like it was a very sudden shift.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that was part of the difficulty for me because, right, they weren't focused on me anymore because technically I was okay now in my health. But it was very hard to emotionally and psychologically understand that. And I think sometimes when I think of clients with chronic pain and then they're having different procedures and they're going through different things or they're having different surgeries and then, and then there's the response of like, oh, you're okay now, or oh, um, this should solve everything, or these messages, and then they're just kind of pushed over to the side a little bit. That can be very alarming, especially when pain and symptoms persist.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and this ties into you know medical, especially when pain and symptoms persist. Yeah, and this ties into you know medical trauma and chronic pain. Chronic symptoms you know in my experience and in your experience in working treatments and generally like unsupportive or stigmatizing care from medical professionals. You know many people for months or years after experience this chronic nervous system dysregulation.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and then sometimes that isn't recognized or isn't validated. And one thing I want to say about my experience is that no way are we, you know, wanting to kind of say bad things about the healthcare system and that's not what this podcast is about. And with my experience I'm very glad for the care that I got, but I think because sometimes surgeries or these experience with the medical system can be so normalized that, yeah, we all just kind of forget and move along and we don't really dig deeper in how maybe people might be impacted I know for me also I was like, oh, I'm supposed to just move on now, and so I also felt really uncomfortable, maybe talking about how I felt or my experience, because I thought I shouldn't have this anxiety or this fear.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know I think a lot of people don't fully understand that, like medical, trauma can actually worsen chronic pain and symptoms and even trigger new symptoms, and this is really due to this level of danger in our nervous system. You know neuroplastic pain and symptoms really occur when the brain views the body as unsafe and mistakes. You know these signals from the body is dangerous and this means you know, when the brain and nervous system is dysregulated due to trauma, it's more likely to generate these pain and symptoms.

Speaker 1:

Right, so that's right. So what do people? What is happening with people when that cycle is going on? Then?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think people are a bit lost and before coming to a brain and nervous system approach, people get so fixated on the pain and symptoms that they don't understand all the perceived danger or actual danger that's coming from the medical system and their interactions with them. So sometimes it's a missed cause. They don't see how their interactions with the medical system and them feeling very in danger with these treatments or procedures is actually perpetuating things. People just get so fixated on the pain and symptoms and so one thing we want to outline in this podcast is signs of medical trauma and what they can include. Yeah, for sure, and I want to be clear. I'm always cautious when I make lists like this, because I like lists.

Speaker 1:

I do Like.

Speaker 2:

I like controlled, orderly. This is the coping mechanisms that I've lived by for many years the not carefree side of Tanner. The not carefree Tanner.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but this has served you the lists.

Speaker 2:

The lists have helped me, but with lists just be cautious here, because your experience may not match this, and that's okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you could still have medical trauma potentially and this is really just self-assess. We're not assess, we're not diagnosing anyone here, but you know, prior, during or after a medical procedure, a person will maybe experience the following physical symptoms. There could be more of this like fight response, where we feel anxious, panic, on edge, racing heart difficulties, breathing tingling, dizziness, racing thoughts, excessive worry. There could also be this fight response I see this happen a lot where people are more irritated, angry, racing heart, shortness of breath, high anger towards medical professionals or rigid movements, even the way they kind of move their body. The other response that can happen is more of this freeze-shutdown response, which is one of the most common responses that we have in terms of trauma, and this can look like shutting down, numb, drowsy, dissociation, floating sensations, exhausted, low muscle tone, numbness, poor immune function or disconnection, and so these are the really common things that will take place, and I wanted to highlight that it's not always after. Sometimes it's even prior to or during, like sometimes it's the anticipation of this actually starting to take place.

Speaker 1:

And with like sometimes, when we're struggling with chronic pain and we have this procedure. What commonly do you see, tanner, with that anticipation for people?

Speaker 2:

yeah, like I think people are constantly it's on their mind, um or like, and that's more like that anxious, maybe fight or flight, like it's on their mind, they're worrying, they're like excessively planning, they're excessively trying to control all of this. But there's other people that have more that free shutdown where they just numb out, yeah, like they're just disconnected. They know what's coming, but it's they've shut down and that.

Speaker 1:

And it makes sense and we really want to validate why that might happen for someone, especially if we're living with chronic pain and sometimes that sometimes I think, there's the hope which sometimes, and it's true that this medical procedure can bring the pain down. So it makes sense that that fixation is there, with the fixation afterwards and say fight or flight afterwards, tanner, what do you commonly see there?

Speaker 2:

well, I think this will happen a lot with people with chronic pain and symptoms and this is something that's actually on this list of like this obsession with diagnosing the root of the medical issue, like they people feel, and maybe rightfully so I'm not saying this is incorrect, but they feel like they've been inaccurately treated or dismissed and when that happens, people almost get obsessed around like getting more assessments, seeing the next person. Well, and I think I relate to get obsessed around like getting more assessments, seeing the next person well, and I think I relate to that.

Speaker 1:

So, like with my experience and my story, that's what happened to me is that I was very much terrified that something was still wrong and I couldn't get out of my head that something was missed and they were missing it. So I kept having, and I kept asking for tests and I remember at points I think once like a doctor at the hospital was reluctant and I was very aggressive to get it because I thought I had to advocate for myself and so and now, when I reflect on it, it's a bit like I have to provide empathy to myself, because at that point I was like what if something is missed?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and I remember that, and it's so easy to get lost in that.

Speaker 1:

With my chronic pain.

Speaker 2:

I got lost in like trying to get the next treatment, the next procedure, the next assessment, and so this is more of this kind of anxiousness. The other thing that will happen a lot of times and is an indicator that there is medical trauma is, following the main procedure, a person has this heightened, dysregulated response to routine medical appointments.

Speaker 1:

And why do you think that's a key piece to?

Speaker 2:

routine medical appointments. And why do you think that's a key piece? Well, I just I think it's a sign that there is this trauma response that's now been tied to the medical system yeah. And it makes sense. We have one negative, scary, overwhelming event take place with one procedure and then any interaction after that is just causing this wave of dysregulation.

Speaker 1:

Ah, okay.

Speaker 2:

And another thing that will happen to people is they almost start to avoid any future medical appointments.

Speaker 1:

And I think those two factors that you highlight there, Tanner, are good things to reflect on. Do you relate to that? Yeah, you know, if you're listening to this, do you relate to maybe that avoidance side or that really height, dysregulated height and dysregulated side?

Speaker 2:

and one thing they talk about in somatic experiencing, which is interesting. It's an interesting idea and it makes sense when we understand this mind-body connection is injuries from the procedures, such as like scars from a surgery, take longer than normal to heal yes and so, and I really want to emphasize I I hear this a lot um, and that can be really confusing yeah, and it makes sense because when we're that dysregulated our body it struggles to heal, like all the systems are so like.

Speaker 2:

if your nervous system is in this heightened, dysregulated trauma response, it's hard for the other systems to be working well.

Speaker 1:

Well, and it's complicated because then that also reinforces our belief that something was missed, or something's wrong or I need to get to the root, so it becomes this cycle. Yeah, or I need to get to the root, so it becomes this cycle.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and last, of course we're going to mention this, but you know, chronic somatic symptoms occur after, yes, like more pain, fatigue, dizziness, tinnitus, other symptoms. They start to become escalated, like, for some people, like a medical event is the trigger they never had symptoms before that like chronic symptoms, right. For other people, it almost just worsens them. Yes, and so the prevention I thought we'd spend a little time on this. Okay, because you know, getting psychological treatment prior to an upcoming medical procedure, in my opinion, is one of the best ways you can minimize medical trauma from occurring or reoccurring perpetually. You know, a well-trained therapist can support a person in somatically processing unpleasant sensations relating to the upcoming procedure in a different way, cognitively processing negative thinking and beliefs regarding it. Way, cognitively processing negative thinking and beliefs regarding it. And the secret with trauma is we need time and space and slowness.

Speaker 2:

And so it's hard, like if someone comes and they want to process an upcoming procedure and we only have a week. It's not really enough time. I know sometimes we can't control when our medical procedures are, but as much as we can we want to give more time and space when it's possible support in this area, especially if we know that our experience with that upcoming procedure can impact our pain and symptoms in a mind-body way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and we can do a lot of work in terms of, like setting up the conditions for a somatic sense of safety to occur during and after the procedure. So things like this could include, you know us supporting a person and educating themselves about the procedure. Asking the necessary questions, like being well informed, can create safety for a lot of people. It can be helping a person advocate for themselves to receive what they need, to feel safe. I'm a big supporter of this, like people need to advocate for their health.

Speaker 1:

For sure, and also feel like they're being heard, and so advocating and then feeling like you're being heard can be super helpful, but it starts with advocating.

Speaker 2:

Another thing that people can do in prevention is, you know, identifying safety resources that they can use during the procedure. So this could be things like music supportive person, a blanket or an item Supporting a person in writing, a script of instructions for the surgeon or medical team and, lastly, helping a person practice exposure to being in the hospital or imagining the procedure, well-processing emotions and nervous system responses.

Speaker 2:

Now we want to do this slowly and gradually, yes, but I think that exposure, giving yourself exposure, even visualizing it, and processing the emotions can be a really helpful thing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do too, and just allowing, and I like how you say, paired with nervous system regulation and response, and so that's what we're exposing too, and then we're trying to kind of create that safety as we move towards and during the procedure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so if people are listening and thinking you might've experienced medical trauma, we really do suggest reaching out to a therapist in your area. You know our clinic. It specializes in treating clients with chronic pain and illness, and because of this, a lot of us are trained and work with trauma regularly, especially medical trauma, and so if you're in Canada, we recommend reaching out to us for support if you need. However, if you're not in Canada, we recommend finding a therapist that can provide you services in your region, and you'll want to make sure that the therapist is skilled, experienced and confident in working with medical trauma.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, something to look out for in their profile trainings and approaches listed might be something like somatic experiencing EMDR, somatic attachment therapy, emotional awareness and expression therapy. Accelerated resolution therapy so ART, radical exposure tapping or prolonged exposure therapy. So ART, radical exposure tapping or prolonged exposure therapy.

Speaker 2:

It's also possible to self-process medical trauma and in our digital course we really do map out a step-by-step process to build safety with your nervous system, increase your ability to regulate by using safety signals and somatic practices, and engage in graded exposure to difficult memories to restore safety.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, and we know that's an option that has been useful for people too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So we really hope this 101 on medical trauma was helpful for people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we think, like a lot of people, we've come across a lot of people that relate to this, so and I'm sure some of you guys listening also relate to this, and it's something just to think about that. Okay, is this my experience? Is this part of my experience, and should I kind of dive a bit deeper into it?

Speaker 2:

Exactly so. We are wishing everyone well. We hope to have a carefree weekend.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, good, I'm excited for that, tanner.

Speaker 2:

Carefree Tanner.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Here we go.

Speaker 1:

He says that, so hopefully right now.

Speaker 2:

It's good to be hopeful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm not doubtful.

Speaker 2:

You're a little doubtful yeah. Well, thank you everyone for listening.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next week. Talk to you next week. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, instagram and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

Speaker 2:

We wish you all healing.