The Mind-Body Couple

OCD and Chronic Pain/Symptoms

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 100

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The powerful connection between OCD patterns and chronic pain might be the missing puzzle piece in your healing journey. Tanner and Anne dive deep into how obsessive thinking and compulsive behaviors fuel neuroplastic symptoms, creating a cycle that keeps pain and symptoms alive.

You'll discover why that constant symptom checking, endless research, and anxious monitoring actually reinforce your brain's pain circuits rather than solving the problem. With vulnerability and humor, the hosts share their own experiences with OCD tendencies—from Tanner's shoulder-testing ritual to Anne's encounters with health anxiety—and how these patterns operated both before and during their pain experiences.

The solution? Cultivating indifference. But don't roll your eyes just yet! This counterintuitive approach isn't about ignoring your pain or pretending it doesn't exist. Instead, it's about starving pain of the attention that keeps it thriving. The hosts offer practical, actionable strategies for breaking free from obsessive patterns: naming your symptoms with silly names, recognizing when your brain is trying to help (but making things worse), and—perhaps most importantly—giving your brain something valuable to focus on besides your symptoms.

Whether you've been diagnosed with OCD or simply recognize some of these patterns in your relationship with chronic pain, this episode provides a compassionate roadmap for change. Progress isn't linear, and even small shifts toward indifference represent significant healing. Ready to loosen pain's grip on your attention and reclaim your life? This conversation shows you how.

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married! In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were occurring due to learned brain pathways and nervous system dysregulation. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make gradual changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, which is an in-depth online course that provides step-by-step guidance for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Also check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Discl...

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the MindBodyCouple podcast.

Speaker 2:

I'm Tanner Murtaugh and I'm Anne Hampson. This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms. If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapyca or purchase our online course at embodycommunitycom to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. Hello everyone.

Speaker 1:

Hi everybody, welcome back, welcome back. It's quite the welcome you're giving there, tanner.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know I'm making people feel welcome to our podcast. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully, or I'm scaring them off with my weird voice. That's also true. We got a good topic today, but before we jump into it, tomorrow is our daughter's birthday party.

Speaker 1:

Yes, she is turning five years old and we're doing like a party at like a kid's kind of play place and it's gonna feel chaotic yeah it is gonna be kid chaos, yeah, filled with kids that are excited, hopped up on sugar, yes, and then crashing and burning yes, yes, and so we are trying to mentally prepare ourselves for that and maybe like the feeling of the crash and burn afterwards. Yeah, not in like anticipatory fear, more in just like radical acceptance.

Speaker 2:

And we've had our share of kids' birthday parties. Yes, and we know what to expect now. That Difficulty, oh yeah, difficulty for us Like fun, don't get me wrong, it'll be fun yeah, but then when we come home from the party, oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's darkness, they're like little gremlins, yeah, and we're like exhausted. So when it's funny, because I feel like on our podcast we often talk a lot about, like you know, knowing that stressful times might make us dysregulated, and so I think we've really learned this is a stressful time for us and how can we support each other? I mean support each other, tanner. I need your help, tanner. I'm here for you, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm gonna be there. He's gonna be there. I'm showing up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh great, yep, he's going to be there, I'm showing up yeah, oh great, yep Just regulation for me, mentally and physically.

Speaker 2:

I'll physically be there, uh-huh, and I'll mentally deal with the kid outbursts Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, like in my mind as you deal with them.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, that's more likely. So you know, wish us luck, send us good vibes tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

Send us good vibes, wish us luck. Yeah, it'll be good, though, yeah, she'll be excited, yes. So our topic today yeah, ocd and neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Speaker 1:

And I'm kind of shocked that we haven't done this topic. Have we done this?

Speaker 2:

topic on other podcasts podcasts. We've talked in passing about obsessive, yeah, and we've talked around it, yes, you know, we're two years in and, by the way, this is episode 100 for us I know it's crazy.

Speaker 1:

Hopefully you have all liked the 100 episodes um and if you're new to our podcast, there's a whole library for you to explore.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm, but this is really common, yes, so even if you haven't been diagnosed with OCD or you don't think you fully have OCD, there's still a lot of benefit, because with neuroplastic pain and symptoms there is so much crossover with OCD.

Speaker 1:

Why do you say that, Tanner?

Speaker 2:

Well, we're going to dive into this, but it makes sense, because when you think about neuroplastic pain and symptoms, they're fed by nervous system dysregulation, meaning anxiety, frustration and fears caused by OCD patterns can directly influence our symptoms, and so I do want to backtrack a second here to defining for people what OCD really is. Yeah, because we've all heard the term.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

We've all diagnosed our friends with OCD. Yes, anne's diagnosed me many years ago. Oh, yes, that one's probably accurate, but you know, it's a popular term, it's a pop culture term. But let's break it down what this acronym actually means. So really, ocd is obsessive compulsive disorder. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You have the O, which is the obsessive thinking patterns. Yeah Right, you have these obsessive fears, worries, fixation in your mind and it can feel very intrusive, Like it feels like we don't have control of our thoughts. Myself I can get obsessed with all sorts of things, and especially around pain. That definitely took place. So that's the O. You have this obsessive thinking. And for some people that's all they have. The C, which is less known, is really this compulsive behaviors and actions that take place.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So an example of this and we'll give examples for pain, but let's give a classic OCD example of germs. So with someone who has OCD around germs, which is a very common type of OCD what you get is you get this obsessive thinking, worrying about if things are contaminated, if there's germs in some vicinity to the person on them, near them, they have this obsessive thinking that they might get sick or ill. And then you have the compulsive actions. So compulsive actions with germs which is really common is excessive hand washing. Yes, so the person's washing their hands over and over again.

Speaker 1:

And what's the meaning behind the compulsive actions for people, do you think?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a really good question because it's almost like the compulsion, in my opinion, kind of follows the obsessive thinking as like the solution. Yeah, so I'm having obsessive thoughts that Anne's over there coughing up a lung sick and my compulsive action is now to wash my hands every time I touch any surface in my house. Yeah, like we see it as the solution.

Speaker 1:

And usually when we're struggling with OCD we might engage and experience these obsessions and then engage in the compulsion often and repetitively. So that's very common and for some people then after a while of engaging in that pattern, that can relieve the obsession which fuels that pattern going forward of like continuously kind of falling into that type of behavior and pattern and it can be really debilitating for people. So we really want to emphasize, if you are someone that struggles with OCD or have an OCD diagnosis, that this can be very distressing and difficult or have an OCD diagnosis, that this can be very distressing and difficult and we're going to talk more in this podcast about when we have OCD and pain or say we don't have OCD diagnosis but we have still obsessions and some compulsive behavior around pain. That also can be very difficult.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So even if you don't meet this kind of full criteria for OCD, as you're saying, it's really important to understand that the obsessive thoughts or compulsive recognize that this obsession or compulsion predate your symptoms. So this may have looked like intensive control in different aspects of your life or high anxiety when things are not in your control or in periods of change. It could be health anxiety engaging in certain rituals or behaviors to reduce anxiety. So long before someone's chronic pain or chronic symptoms developed, people may have had these patterns taking place, which likely supported their nervous system becoming sensitized, which means it starts to click on pain and symptoms because there's just too much danger or dysregulation their nervous system's picking up.

Speaker 1:

Right, and so whether you have that a little bit or you fully have OCD and maybe even a different area of your life, that also can maybe be the perfect storm to creating chronic pain later on because of that dysregulated nervous system.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know, for myself that definitely was the case. Yeah, long before I got obsessed or compulsive actions about pain, long before I ever had pain, these patterns were taking place how did you see that taking place for you, Tanner? I would see it happen especially early on with like school, like I would get a project.

Speaker 2:

you know, even back in grade school, long before university, I would get a project and I would have these obsessive worries of like am I going to get a good grade, am I going to do a good job? Like what's going to take place, and it would just be constantly. I would be fixated on it and then what would happen would be these really rigid, compulsive behaviors of you know, on Wednesday night I need to work on this for three hours and 13 minutes, or else you know like there would be these like really rigid ways that I was compulsively behaving to try and deal with my obsessive thinking. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Now, when we experience chronic pain and symptoms, we can also start to have these obsessive or compulsive behaviors.

Speaker 1:

Right, and it makes sense to kind of apply that type of pattern when pain and symptoms come up. Because when we have pain and symptoms our instinct is to try to figure it out, to get rid of it, to do things to kind of shift that.

Speaker 2:

And that can be very obsessive for a lot of us struggled with obsessions or compulsive behavior is not uncommon when chronic pain does hit to start developing that type of relationship with symptoms as well, so this can look a lot of different ways of how this presents. I want to break this down for people and for the listeners. Just see what you relate to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because these are patterns that are hard to change. I'm not going to lie about that. Yeah, Obsessive compulsive patterns are difficult to change. I'm not going to lie about that. Obsessive compulsive patterns are difficult to change. But I think there's so much benefit to doing that because I've seen people shift this and heal. So how this obsessive compulsive patterns can present is, for some people they're just obsessively thinking about their symptoms.

Speaker 1:

That's something we see more often than not with, I think, everyone we start working with or come to.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like when I had chronic pain. I can tell you definitively I was thinking about in my mind. It was probably 80% of all the thoughts I had. Yes. Like throughout, my whole day was about my pain.

Speaker 1:

And we want to again, if that's you and you relate to that we want to empathize with you that it's hard not to be like that, especially if the pain is always present. Yeah, and so that does make sense of why that happens. But when we're always obsessively or hyper-focused on our pain, then the brain learns to keep generating that obsession as well and pain.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, then the brain learns to keep generating that obsession as well, and pain, yeah. And what I see people shift into if they're obsessive thinking is like almost ruminating in their mind of like how can I fix this, like they're always trying to fix it and there may not even be taking action yet. Like, yeah, outwardly it's like in their mind, it's like how can I fix it, how can I lower my pain today and interesting.

Speaker 1:

So obsessing about the pain and then ruminating on the how can I fix it sometimes can be the compulsion action for people of like okay, I'm gonna just kind of figure it out and I'm gonna go back into that and kind of look for solutions now this could lead into intensely being lost in research.

Speaker 1:

Or just like medical terminology, medical treatments, like just constantly looking yes, like that almost becomes this compulsive behavior well, and what's interesting about that is, I think when we fall into that, that can create some relief from the fear, from the symptoms of like okay, I, you know I'm, I have the solution in my grasp and that can feel good.

Speaker 2:

And then when we start feeling bad again, then we're looking even harder or looking elsewhere, and then that just becomes this pattern of obsessive fear and then compulsive type searching yeah, the other thing that I'll see people do which I did myself is this, this testing, like they're testing their symptom or they're testing, you know, if they, you know, move a certain way, if they shift a certain way. You know, like maybe they have back pain and they're shifting back and forth, like there's almost this like testing, if certain things are triggering them, to confirm if the symptoms still there. Like one thing I know this is a podcast so people can't see me but one thing I would do with my left shoulder you probably saw me do this and like thousands of times like I would, I would snap it.

Speaker 1:

I would snap it like I don't even want to see you do that right now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it brings back bad memories, yeah, and what I'd be doing is I'd be, because I was convinced that clicking in my shoulder was causing my pain. To give context, our bodies pop, snap, crackle pop, like this is normal yeah but I was convinced, like if the cracking's there, there's something wrong with my shoulder. So I would just like all day be pushing my hand forward.

Speaker 1:

I remember you doing that, tanner, hundreds of times a day, like constantly, um, and it's funny because, as your partner, like I didn't really understand I had no idea you're like testing or checking, like I um, I just was like, oh that's. You know, tanner does that with his body, like I like obviously knew you're in pain, but I remember you engaging in that and it becomes. It can become very much obsessive, it can very much become like hard to stop. So when you know, like what was it like when you tried to stop that?

Speaker 2:

Well, it's interesting because it faded out slowly over time and we're going to talk about the solution in a second here. Yeah, but I did have to intentionally, because it almost became so automatic.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Like I wouldn't realize. Even now we're talking a decade later. Every once in a while I'll do it. It's wild Like we're talking a decade later. Every once in a while I'll do it. It's wild like we're talking a decade later.

Speaker 1:

I no longer have chronic pain and, for context, my, my shoulder still snaps like it still makes the same noise when I do that and what I was like convinced was the cause of my pain well, and so something I ask people a lot is to think about what is reinforcing your symptoms, what's keeping them rolling, what's keeping the brain believe that you know something is wrong with your body, because sometimes it can be something like that that we don't even think about anymore. That's so automatic, but that is deeply part of like, maybe, obsessive and compulsive behavior, but we don't consciously even realize that, and so really reflecting on this is important.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so here's the next thing I want to talk about. Everyone, please listen to this point carefully. Yeah, because this is a sneaky way. Ocd patterns can take place for people. During healing, we may intensely engage in certain behaviors. Now, this could include things like somatic tracking, careful diets, certain movements or certain avoidance, like. We often think of avoidance as like things we don't do, but I'll see people almost compulsively doing the mind-body things to try and make their symptom be controlled or go away, right in the moment.

Speaker 1:

And I want to say this is a very complicated piece of it and something I think a lot of people have difficulty with, rightly so, because we want to engage in these healing aspects. But then it is often this fine line and that can be tricky to figure out.

Speaker 2:

It can be because, like for example, somatotraininging is great, but the point of somatotraquing is not to control your symptom in the moment right like it's not trying to like you.

Speaker 2:

You're approaching your symptom and trying to create safety, but people almost do it as this compulsive action now, yeah, um. So just be really cautious. You know, I always tell people ask yourself like, why am I engaging in this practice right now? Am I engaging it to try and make my symptom go away today, or am I engaging it to, long-term, have my symptom go away? But I'm just trying to create safety in the moment.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like that. Something I also ask people actually is if I were not to do it today, would I be okay? And if I didn't do it, what kind of dysregulation would happen? And so because that can tell if we're kind of doing something maybe too obsessively or with too much fear or control attached to it.

Speaker 2:

This kind of leads into the next point here that is really common is people try to carefully control their stress levels or emotions to limit symptom sensitivity, and we could do a whole episode on this. Yeah, because people almost start to fear having stress or fear having difficult emotions, partly because, to be honest, they get the equation wrong so really quick. People assume stress, difficult emotions, equals pain or symptoms, because people have seen this interaction. But what will happen is if it really comes down to like, if people have stress or difficult emotions and they add this resistance and not feeling safe with it, that's when symptoms are going to increase.

Speaker 1:

Well, and it's complicated because I think also this one is hard to navigate because if we have a lot of stress and external factors causing that stress, sometimes we do need to look at kind of dialing down that stress or we do need to look at kind of stepping out into more calm or restful moments. So that's very much true, but that's right, we're not doing that to necessarily not have stress in our lives. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so it's finding that balance of like. Where do I need to de-stress? But when they're like, how do I create safety when stress is present?

Speaker 2:

too. Exactly, exactly the next one. I'm kind of laughing because I remember doing this. We may feel superstitious.

Speaker 1:

How do you relate to this one, Tanner?

Speaker 2:

So, what will happen to people is, for example they think if they learn about a new possible diagnosis, they feel scared, like it's going to manifest and lead to new symptoms. Like people I see this happen to people where they're like, don't think about, don't think about mouth cancer. This was a common one because I I had such fears, health anxiety around mouth cancer. Oh, yes, yes, that that was like at the beginning. It faded, but that was at the beginning of, like, my chronic pain. I had such a fear and so I, like, was superstitious around my belief of like, okay, I can't, I can't think about mouth cancer, I can't think about the word cancer, I can't like there was such this belief system of like I can't do that or my mouth will start to burn and so did you do things intentionally to not think about it.

Speaker 1:

Did you what? Yeah, what was kind of like that compulsive action?

Speaker 2:

yeah, so if I was like watching videos, and all of a sudden like it led to, like discussing cancer. I would close it right away.

Speaker 2:

Like there'd be like this limiting thing taking place around that. Yeah, the other thing I see people around kind of superstitious and I've seen many clients have this and I thought this too is they think they're going to jinx their progress. So they're like they're seeing progress, you know, like they're starting to see their symptoms come down. And I'll go to ask a client hey, tell me about your week, how's it going? And they're like nervous to say it because they're like if I say that I'm progressing, maybe it'll all fall apart. Yeah, like they're worried they're gonna jinx it, right?

Speaker 1:

and that's super natural to kind of fall into that and and I want to validate that kind of fear of like okay, I don't want to even acknowledge it or get too excited about it or think about it. And well, and it's complicated because sometimes when we think about pain or symptoms or don't, our pain and symptoms come on, so there's a bit of that layer of like wait, I need to be very careful of what I think.

Speaker 2:

That falls into that too, because there's some truth to that, if so there is, but what will happen is, like this kind of superstitious beliefs, it actually creates more fear yeah so now we're going to shift to talking about the solution.

Speaker 1:

I know, and I think that, like you know, the main word we chose to describe this solution. Some people might be like yes, and then others might be like oh, and so it's a complicated some people might hate you for the word you're about to say.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I would go as far as saying that.

Speaker 1:

And I want to say, like people, often when I brought this up, when I meet with people, have hated it. So we understand that. But the solution we want to talk about is indifference Indifference to pain, indifference to maybe obsessive thinking, indifference to acting on compulsions, indifference all around.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, how would you, you know, define indifference for people Like what would be kind of like the way you explain indifference to a client.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for me, when I try to explain it to clients, I try to talk about almost not responding, and so it's like okay when I think about it, with pain and symptoms or even obsessive thinking, that thinking is there, that pain and symptom is there and we almost kind of want to allow, but we don't want to fuel it, we don't want to give power to that pain or symptom or that obsessive thought, we're just allowing it to be there. But that's okay.

Speaker 2:

I like that. It's kind of like taking the power away. Um, one thing I often talk about with people is indifference. This is like the, the mindset. Our kids are younger, um, but you think about, like a teenager, how they feel about their parents yes no, not an angry teenager I want to be clear, because teenager some teenagers are like angry at their parents, like I hate you mom, like, yeah, our daughter's gonna say that to us at some point, oh yeah we're prepared well, our son's already like yelled at half the time.

Speaker 1:

So not, yeah, no, he loves us.

Speaker 2:

He loves us okay I just heard an aunt's feelings.

Speaker 1:

I'm sorry he yells at you, maybe he does yell?

Speaker 2:

okay, anyway, anyways but like not the angry teenager, but the teenager that's like whatever mom like they just like they just like they could literally care less if you exist or not.

Speaker 1:

Like that feeling I love that description though, of like whatever mom, because we want to be that way with pain and symptoms and we want to be that way with that kind symptoms and we want to be that way with that kind of intrusive, obsessive thinking. Now, indifference can be very hard If we're struggling with, like OCD type patterns, if we're struggling with an OCD diagnosis, then this is very difficult and again, we want to validate that this isn't an easy kind of solution we're talking about but it is a solution we can get to. Whether we're struggling with a lot or a little obsessive-type thinking, it is a solution we can get to. We need to get very strategic with indifference because, like we talked about, indifference starves, ocd and neuroplastic symptoms of their fuel source. So you mentioned that already about fueling it when I was kind of saying those examples. We don't want to fuel Whenever we react or engage, we're fueling it more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, now one thing I want to say, as you're talking about this, because I had a little. You know, as you said, that I had a little burst of anxiety myself and I was thinking like people are probably feeling anxious, as you say that, because what I'll see people do is like they're trying to work on indifference.

Speaker 2:

You explain the concept of indifference. They're like, hey, this is where we're trying to get to. And then people will have like a bad two hours where they can't get it off their mind thinking about their pain, and then they're even like more scared because they're like no, I fueled my pain for two hours. And I think, one thing I want to mention, um, as you're kind of sharing. This is like indifference, isn't this all or nothing?

Speaker 1:

No, no, a hundred percent. So it's not. You know, recovery in any way is often kind of up and down. There's a little bit of a journey. It's never linear and it's not all or nothing, it's a gradual. So if we're practicing indifference in some sort, we want to applaud if we've done it even a little bit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like 1%. Like if you felt 1% more indifferent about your symptom today, way to go for you. That's awesome. Like I think that's wonderful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so there's different ways indifference to symptoms can look like. It can be catching yourself testing or checking for symptoms, but then redirecting your attention. So when we think of that solution, yeah, if we notice, oh, we're in that checking cycle, that obsessive checking cycle which I think many people fall into it would be trying to notice that in real time and then trying to redirect and working on indifference there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think this is a big one and that redirecting it's tough work. There's the thing is like what ann just said sounds very simplistic, but I know from experience it's so hard to do. Yes, because it's like my my shoulder, pushing my hand forward to check if my shoulder's snapping like there would be, like I would catch myself and there'd be this urge inside like you have to do this or else, and so that urge is often what keeps us engaging, maybe in compulsive behavior, is that urge?

Speaker 1:

and so it's a bit of discomfort when we don't engage. That's what we want to start creating safety around that discomfort, maybe that anxiety of okay'm going to not act on the compulsive behavior and I'm going to kind of just let myself create safety with that sensation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, don't do the compulsive action. And then instead sit with the feeling, create safety with it.

Speaker 1:

Well, and I think with typical like therapy for OCD, that is very much what people are working on, and so it's similarly trying to kind of bring in that same concept when we're getting that obsessive and compulsive behavior around our pain. Another way that this can present is noticing when we're thinking about researching or attempting to fix symptoms and return to something more valuable. So it's like, oh okay, instead of engaging in obsessive research and trying to fix my pain away, I'm going to work on indifference and then lean into something that I enjoy or something that feels good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I like that you defined both there, because I think you know we're redirecting the compulsive behavior such as like checking if your symptoms there by moving your body. Yeah. But you're also redirecting the thinking If you notice yourself trying to figure out your symptom in your mind, like moving, moving to something more valuable.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and that can take time and work. So we really want to emphasize that again. Like we mentioned, that's not easy and it's chipping away at it slowly every day. Yeah, another one that sometimes works for people is giving the symptoms or thinking patterns a funny name, and so that can sound odd, but it's worth trying it. So sometimes people will notice it and then they'll say out loud oh George, here you are again. Kind of get away, I'm not not engaging with you. What that can do is that can bring some lightheartedness to the experience. It makes it less serious and almost easier to not engage or be indifferent it does.

Speaker 2:

It makes it a little bit, it makes it silly. This strategy isn't ours. It comes from, uh, dr, dr howard schubert. Yeah, and like I think it's such a simple thing that you could do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So calling it fluffy, yeah, pom-pom.

Speaker 1:

Or George, like I just said, george.

Speaker 2:

Anne likes George. I called my pain Fred when I was in pain. Yeah, but you're picking something that you're saying that's just not threatening. It lightens it Like it almost like loosens the grip that maybe those like obsessive thinking patterns can have over you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I've seen this actually be really powerful for people. So it's worth trying to explore for sure, reminding yourself that the brain is trying to help but it's actually making things worse, that reframing of like, okay, here you, you are brain, you're doing this, but actually this isn't helpful, and sometimes we can say that out loud, we can think that in our own mind, um, and then always shift to redirect after that to something else I like that one because it almost it can sometimes remove the frustration.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, in the sense of, like you know, like your brain's trying its best to protect you, like this, this obsessive, compulsive pattern, like it's literally your brain trying to create safety, it's just created a beast of its own. So sometimes it's reminding ourselves like our brain, my brain's doing the best it can to protect me right when I think of that.

Speaker 1:

It applies really nicely to the obsessive need to research and figure something out. Obviously, the brain is trying very hard to get to a solution for us, and so we kind of want to be kind to ourselves about that. But maybe reminding the brain, hey, like this actually isn't the solution as much as we think it is, exactly yeah. And then, lastly, we also want to mention checking in on physical state. So when OCD thinking or behaviors are present, focusing on regulating the anxiety or fear underneath. So sometimes it's like, okay, I have really intense obsessive thinking right now. I really want to gauge in compulsions around my pain and symptoms. But what's underneath that? It's anxiety, it's maybe sensations that I'm reacting to, and let's kind of tend to those.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So one thing about this and this is to be honest when I have broken OCD patterns with pain, with work, with school, with hobbies, this was essential for me. Yeah, all the redirecting was helpful, but what you'll find is like the obsessive thoughts or the compulsive behaviors they're kind of masking, like they're masking all the dysregulation underneath that you're feeling in your body that you don't want to feel. Most people like to think in their mind of the worst things possible rather than feel the feeling itself, like we're so used in our society to like think over feel and like one of the ways you can overcome. Like obsessive thoughts or compulsive behaviors, as you're saying, is like dropping in and it's like can I sit with this anxiety, track it somatically, be with it, create safety with it, as opposed to being in my mind thinking?

Speaker 1:

this through, because one thing that makes somatic tracking and mindfulness so helpful with neuroplastic pain and OCD kind of behaviors is that we're practicing observing intrusive thoughts and sensations without reacting. So exactly what you said and this brain retraining is what kind of lends to indifference, and so somatic tracking can be so useful for this. It is all about indifference and dropping into the body and exploring those sensations.

Speaker 2:

Exactly that's how we create indifference. We start with somatic tracking or some type of brain retraining exercise, which the point is to attend to it and not respond in the body. That's creating indifference over time.

Speaker 2:

Okay, potential challenges with indifference. Now, this is really vital. One thing I want to talk about here because this is a major misstep that I see people make. Here's the facts about this If you want to create indifference, you need to give your brain something else to focus on besides your pain and symptoms. So vital, because what I'll see people do is I have these obsessive thoughts or these compulsive actions happening around their pain or symptoms or other things in their life, and they're trying to create indifference, but then they don't have anything else to focus on. Right, because when I was in pain, for example, I was thinking about my pain 80% of the day.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it can be hard if we're engaged in this for a long time, to again not engage in that, and also if we're in pain kind of constantly, then again it's hard to have something else to focus on.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and this you have to intentionally do. This is not, for most people, gonna happen just like through osmosis, like it's not just gonna take place, like you need to actually practice giving your brain something else to focus on. Think about engaging yeah and because you can't expect to think about nothing and do nothing right.

Speaker 1:

So, even if it's like in little moments or little pieces, um, that's the start, again acknowledging the win about redirecting yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, for example, when I was first, it was like in the first year of getting better, maybe a year and a half. I was struggling with this because I was no longer obsessed about my pain. But I would just get like obsessed about things I didn't want to think about. Like I would just spend all day thinking about things. It wasn't my pain anymore, but just like.

Speaker 2:

Like you were stuck in obsessive behavior and obsessive thinking all the time. And one thing that helped is I've talked about this before is I was making that children's book for our son and I was doing this with a friend at work and it was great. Yeah, it like it would. It gave me something to focus on. And did I get too obsessed at points?

Speaker 1:

Yes, A hundred percent. It's funny. I was just thinking to myself quietly right now. I was like, oh, you got obsessed with that.

Speaker 2:

But it was practice, like I was practicing, doing something that was just for fun, even though in my mind sometimes I got too far, but it gave me something else to do and focus on Right now when I'm practicing. I was talking about this with our producer, alex. He thought it was a super interesting experiment. I'm trying to get back into playing guitar. I've talked about this. It was a super interesting experiment.

Speaker 2:

I'm trying to get back into playing guitar. I've talked about this. Yeah, it's really hard for me to not get in my brain of like I need to write a whole album. How will I promote that album? Yes, how is that album going to be sick? You get what I mean. Like it just builds and builds and builds. Where the goal is like I'm giving myself something besides work, because I can get obsessed about work to focus on and do for half an hour to an hour a day. And, for example, this week I missed a day and that was good practice of like, okay, I missed it, but then you know, I'm giving my brain practice like focusing on something without getting obsessed. So we need to give our brain something else to focus on to actually heal.

Speaker 1:

But watch, I want to be clear with people watch, that you're not getting obsessed about that new thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah for sure. So it's kind of asking yourself like what in my life would I prefer to feed my attention to? So this could include examples like my relationship with my partner, walks with pets or getting a new pet and you're not allowed to get any more pets. You are banned from going to the Humane Society. This is not allowed.

Speaker 1:

I just have to say it was open at like 8 am. This started with me trying to just do something with my kids early in the morning of like wandering around the Humane Society.

Speaker 2:

And then we ended up with three cats, a dog and a hamster. Well, the hamster was my fault.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that was your fault.

Speaker 2:

I had this—we are getting so far off track.

Speaker 1:

No, you don't have to talk about this?

Speaker 2:

No, no but I had this brilliant idea of like, oh my son would love if I got him a hamster.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and he was like what? Five?

Speaker 2:

at the time he was like five and I think he played with a hamster like six times over two years before it died, Like it was like such a bad experiment. And then I was left quitting the hamster cage.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it was terrible, and it was a surprise to me as well.

Speaker 2:

So be careful. If you're getting a new pet to focus on, you can. If you're getting a new pet to focus on, you could do something artistic, like drawing, painting, making music. It could be working on your physical fitness, like having a new fitness school, learning new recipes, techniques and starting to cook new meals. This could be crafts or like a home reno project.

Speaker 2:

I've had a lot of people I've worked with do these little home rental projects to have something else to attend to. It could be reading educational or meaningful books, not about pain or symptoms.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's a good point.

Speaker 2:

Unless you're new at this, then you can read them. You're only allowed to read it when you're new at this If you've read the Way Out by Alan Gordon, or if you've read any of Dr Sarno's books or Dr Schubner's book and you're on the fifth time through, it's gone too far, that's right Read something else, or planning a trip.

Speaker 1:

And something I want to say it might feel hard at first, shifting attention elsewhere.

Speaker 2:

That is going to be as we kind of keep practicing this and the exposure to sensations of not engaging in the obsession becomes a bit easier and safer, it'll be come, hopefully, more natural to do this yeah, and this is the thing about why we're talking about like giving yourself something else to do, to focus on, to think about, because I think sometimes people see the solution to ocd is like calmness, but you're not designed as a human being to be calm all the time and you know, like ocd, like obsessive thinking, compulsive actions, they do have this like sympathetic energy behind them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah like it's mobilized and we're meant to feel mobilized in our day to day, like you feeling calm all the time. You're going to completely shut down at that point, so like we're redirecting this sympathetic energy into things that actually matter or you actually want to think about or you actually want to engage in. Yeah, that's the idea that I think can be really, really valuable about this. So I hope this episode was helpful for everyone. Again, wish us luck tomorrow oh yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, you guys will probably be listening to this after it's done, so, uh, there's no wishing us luck tomorrow. That's a good point.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we're filming.

Speaker 1:

We're recording this before they hear it chatter, but uh, so we'll uh harness good energy ourselves ourselves.

Speaker 2:

I feel like you know now we don't have people wishing us.

Speaker 1:

No, it might go bad we'll let you know.

Speaker 2:

we'll let you know're going to try to mitigate some of the sympathetic energy so we're not tilting into fight or flight too much.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, thanks for listening and we will talk to you all next week. Talk to you next week.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, instagram and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

Speaker 2:

We wish you all healing.