The Mind-Body Couple

Part 1: How do I know if my pain or symptoms are neuroplastic?

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 101

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How do you know when your chronic pain/symptoms are neuroplastic rather than structural? This question plagues countless people, who often find themselves caught between conflicting medical opinions, inconclusive test results, and treatments that provide only temporary relief.

In this enlightening first installment of a two-part series, Tanner Murtaugh and Anne Hampson break down the concrete criteria that help identify neuroplastic pain and symptoms. They share that neuroplastic pain/symptoms occur when your brain and nervous system remain stuck in a state of danger despite no structural damage in your body - and importantly, you don't need to meet all criteria to benefit from a neuroplastic approach.

The hosts walk through the first category of evidence: when pain doesn't make physical sense. From symptoms that originate during stressful times to pain that worsens with difficult emotions, from inconsistent symptom patterns to pain that spreads and migrates through the body - these are all powerful clues pointing toward neuroplastic mechanisms. They explain why triggers disconnected from the body (like weather or certain environments), delayed onset pain, and symptoms without injury are particularly telling.

Tanner and Anne weave personal experiences throughout, sharing how Tanner's own pain coincided with major life transitions, and how they've observed these patterns across hundreds of clients. They offer reassurance that while identifying neuroplastic components can feel overwhelming, approaching the assessment with curiosity rather than fear is key.

This episode provides invaluable guidance if you've tried numerous treatments without lasting improvement or received diagnoses that don't fully explain your symptoms. Listen now to gain clarity and hope as you begin unraveling whether your persistent pain/symptoms might be treatable through neuroplastic approaches.

Ready to explore how your brain might be generating your symptoms? Tune in next week when they tackle the second category: sensitization factors that make your nervous system more susceptible to neuroplastic pain.

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married! In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were occurring due to learned brain pathways and nervous system dysregulation. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make gradual changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, which is an in-depth online course that provides step-by-step guidance for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Also check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Discl...

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the MindBodyCouple podcast.

Speaker 2:

I'm Tanner Murtaugh and I'm Anne Hampson. This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms. If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapyca or purchase our online course at embodycommunitycom to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. Hi everyone.

Speaker 1:

Hi everybody, Welcome back to the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we are into another work week, but I know on our last podcast we were talking about preparing for our daughter's birthday, which we had, so we wanted to update that. Actually, it went quite smoothly, which is shocking.

Speaker 2:

It goes smooth. She almost lit her hair on fire trying to blow out her candles.

Speaker 1:

Except for that part, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Had a quick dad move where I was like blocking the hair from the flaming candles. That would have been a—.

Speaker 1:

Tanner protected her.

Speaker 2:

Would have been a bad end to the birthday party, yeah, but it went okay. The one thing we didn't think about is the day her birthday was was the day of the time change in Alberta, so we actually lost an hour of sleep going into that day we felt tired.

Speaker 1:

Waking up was hard. That day, actually, I still feel waking up is hard, like I'm still kind of feeling it Takes a little bit of time, but today these are.

Speaker 2:

this is really a common question.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Probably the most common question we get, so we wanted to do a topic on it. So it's actually going to be a two-part series. Yeah, as our producer, alex loves, loves the series.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

He's like do another two-part.

Speaker 1:

Here's our two-part series, Alex. There you go.

Speaker 2:

So part one how do I know my pain or symptoms are neuroplastic?

Speaker 1:

I feel like that's a question sometimes we can kind of get confirmation on, but we can grapple with that throughout their healing journey.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it's so common Like it's rare I work with someone that's fully bought in that their symptoms are neuroplastic right right off the bat. Like usually people go back and forth yes, and it makes sense, and we're going to dive into this. You know there's a lot to cover, so we're going to break this into two parts, two episodes, and to begin, before we dive in, just a definition of neuroplastic pain or symptoms, in case you're new to this work. So neuroplastic pain or symptoms means there's no structural damage or disease in the body and the pain or symptoms are occurring due to our brain and nervous system being stuck in a state of danger or dysregulation.

Speaker 1:

Now some people, tanner, might recognize or identify something structural going on, but also identify a neuroplastic component. Can you speak to that a?

Speaker 2:

bit yeah, which is another common question. We get that. It can be a mix.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and so what we're going to talk about in terms of, like this, evidence or criteria, can that apply, maybe, to the person that believes there is a mix?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like I think we can still look for evidence that some of our pain or symptoms are neuroplastic. I do want to state clearly we know that most chronic pain and symptoms are neuroplastic. So you can self-assess if your symptoms are neuroplastic using criteria. We go through these criteria with our clients, first session every time, and we're going to explore some of these criteria for neuroplastic pain and symptoms and, as we do this, really consider your experience with each of them, like take time, recall experiences from the past, but also more recently, to see if your symptoms fit with the criteria. I don't want people to take my word for it in the sense of like, oh, your symptoms are neuroplastic. No, look for the evidence, look for the evidence, go through the criteria, see where you relate, and you can keep adding to your assessment over periods of days or weeks, as you may remember, or see more evidence occurring.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's a really helpful tool, and we talk with people about that a lot. I think it's important in terms of like gathering evidence, which is what this is to think of this as a tool in your toolbox to use, maybe when you're in doubt, maybe if there's a pain flare, if there's confusion, to kind of go back to this evidence that you see.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and an important piece I want to hit on is we're going to go through a lot of criteria over the next two episodes. Yeah, you do not need to. The next two episodes. Yeah, you do not need to meet all of them. Yes, this is not an all or nothing thing. Many people only meet three or four of their criteria. That's all they relate to, and their symptoms are still neuroplastic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I like that you highlighted that, tanner, because I think sometimes we can get confused of like, oh, I meet some, but oh, does that mean some of it's neuroplastic, some of it's not, and we can kind of go into the weeds there.

Speaker 2:

And in our approach when we're assessing neuroplastic pain and symptoms at our clinic, we find it helpful to break the criteria into two main categories. So category one it's not making physical sense. So we want to look for ways that pain or symptoms aren't acting like physical symptoms should, or how does it look confusing or fishy to you. And this is what we're going to cover in episode one. We're going to go through this first category.

Speaker 2:

Now category two is sensitization factors. So these are experiences that suggest our nervous system has been in survival mode. When our nervous system is commonly dysregulated due to mental health concerns, traumatic experiences, chronic stress or beliefs about our body, our danger system becomes sensitized and the sensitization opens the door for neuroplastic pain and symptoms to start to occur. So in episode two, part two, we're going to go through that occur. So in episode two, part two, we're going to go through that. So, as I said, we're going to go through category one, which again is it's not making physical sense. And you want to be like a detective here, sherlock Holmes, you're looking for Nancy Drew.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, I'm just saying she is a detective that some people may or may not know.

Speaker 2:

Who's Nancy Drew? It's so painful.

Speaker 1:

Tanner is a bit young, if people don't know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, many people wouldn't know this because Ann looks so young. Oh, thank you, I think, but she's a lot older than me.

Speaker 1:

Okay, no, whoa, whoa, whoa. But yeah, maybe you're a bit too young for Nancy Drew. What's?

Speaker 2:

our age gap. Oh my God, we can talk about that.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes six years, sometimes seven, depending on where we're at in here.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, depending.

Speaker 1:

You wanted to say that because you wouldn't want to end up with the seven oh my gosh sometimes it's six and actually it's a bit painful because I'll reference things and tanner will be like what I'm too young for that well, listen, we were both born in the 80s, it's just I was born in like the last two months of the 80s don't count as being an. I was born in 89.

Speaker 2:

I was born I feel like that does not really count September 89,. I was born right before it became the 90s and it was okay. Okay, all right, let's dive in Anne.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, so I'm going to talk about a criteria that we look for, and one of them is about symptoms originating during a stressful or emotional time, and I think probably three quarters of the people I talk to relate to this and can identify a stressor either happening right before, during, somewhat coinciding with pain and symptoms happening. Often we don't notice this until we reflect back on it. Sometimes it's really clear. It's like this happened and then my symptoms came on, but it can commonly take a bit of reflection to see that this happened.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's a really good point, because people are so physically focused that when their pain or symptoms come on, they're so focused on, like, what's wrong with my body that they miss maybe all these stressors or traumas that were occurring right around that time, that they missed maybe all these stressors or traumas that were occurring right around that time. A question I have for you, anne, is you know, what type of stressful situations have you seen triggering people's symptoms?

Speaker 1:

All sorts, and we really want to like emphasize that it can be like kind of positive stress, if we want to identify it that way. It can be maybe a negative stressor, if we want to identify it that way. It can be maybe a negative stressor, if we want to identify it that way, or something more difficult. It could be something really big or something really small. Sometimes it's daily stress, so that kind of daily grind people will recognize that they've been living in, maybe at the workplace or in their family life, and so it doesn't have to be this gigantic hit you over the head stressor. And so is that's why it's important really reflect on when did my symptoms start and what was my life looking at at that time yeah, sometimes I feel people it's no fault of their own, probably due to upbringing different things I've done this.

Speaker 2:

They almost invalidate that what they're going through is just a normal part of being human. So kind of what's the big deal? Right, like a wedding, a divorce, having a baby.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah. Well, I want to chime in with that, with having a baby, because I relate to this. I think we can view it as oh yeah, you know, that's part of life, that's normal. Or another thing that comes to mind is buying a house. That's part of life, that's normal. I shouldn't be experiencing stress, but it can be very dysregulating for us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, these changes, these life transitions, as I have shared many times in the podcast, I struggle with change. My symptoms wasn't, I don't think, fully came on because of this, but at the time mine and Anne's relationship was getting serious when my pain came on.

Speaker 1:

That caused Tanner lots of stress.

Speaker 2:

I was proposing yes, also stress, also stress. Happy stress, luckily for us, but good stress, but still, these life transitions were very dysregulating for me.

Speaker 1:

Well, and when you're going through that, tanner, did you know at the time that you were very dysregulated? Were you able to reflect on that at the time, or was this afterwards?

Speaker 2:

I was so focused on my body and something being wrong with my body triggering my pain that I missed it In reflection. It took like I remember reading Dr Schumer's book and when it came to that part or I think it was actually Sarno's book I read first I came to that part, it like clicked instantly. I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense, but like there was no insight beforehand.

Speaker 1:

Well, and that's an interesting point, and so it's not uncommon to get so fixated on pain or symptoms because they're very distressing, that that's all we can see. Yet there's so much going on in our life that might be connected to that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So next criteria Difficult emotions make it worse.

Speaker 2:

So, we've talked about like this, like onset of your symptoms during a stressful or emotional time. But what a lot of people will see is their symptoms occur or worsen when feeling difficult emotions of stress. So when the nervous system is dysregulated, the brain more readily fixates on problems and generates neuroplastic pain or symptoms because it feels in danger. And I always tell people remember, as a human being, to experience physical pain or symptoms during stressful or emotional times is really normal. Is really normal. Alternatively, what you see is you know symptoms will reduce when you feel safe, calm, happy. This also suggests the body is structurally safe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and this I think I said this before on the podcast, but this always reminds me because I think I've had so many people I've met with say this it's like I went on vacation and my symptoms went away Almost in this, like what happened here, because it can feel very confusing and almost shocking that my symptoms were gone the whole time. I was like enjoying myself on the beach. The moment I get back to my house, boom, the symptoms are back, and that is something commonly I hear all the time.

Speaker 2:

Or if you're like me and you're stressed. On holidays, unfortunately, you go on vacation and you get like never ending pain flares.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that can happen too, but I think more commonly the reverse happens. But that's an example of like. Maybe, when we have pressure off, when our typical daily stressors are kind of gone, when we feel a bit calmer, excitable or safer, that the symptoms reduce.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like your emotional state whether you're regulated or dysregulated is influencing your symptoms greatly.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and this can be really subtle. So sometimes I chat with people and they're like I don't see that at all. Is influencing your symptoms greatly? Yes, and this can be really subtle. So sometimes I chat with people and they're like I don't see that at all. And one thing again with the criteria if you don't see this at all, it doesn't mean that your situation doesn't fit the criteria, like we said. But it's important to kind of look for the very subtle fluctuations too, um, with negative or positive emotions yeah, because even if some subtle fluctuations- taking place without a doubt, part of your symptoms are neuroplastic, that's just it.

Speaker 2:

If this is purely physical, like a purely physical thing, which again is rare your emotional state's not going to be influencing things so like. I think it's just, it's a, it's an important criteria. Again, you don't have to relate to this one, but it's a pretty dead obvious one.

Speaker 1:

Totally. The next one we want to talk about is inconsistency. So that might be inconsistency in how your pain and symptoms present, inconsistency in intensity or kind of change from day to day, or with things that might typically trigger and then all of a sudden they don't. So inconsistency in many different forms.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think the reason we talk about this with people is neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Speaker 1:

they're very inconsistent in the way they present.

Speaker 2:

Like I always give the example, sometimes I would go for a walk when I was in pain and my back and hip pain would be at two out of 10 intensity level. Yeah, those times I go for a walk to be an eight. So, like I was convinced oh, walking is triggering my symptoms. But that's a wild variation. For a trigger to be where what you see with you know. For a trigger to be where what you see with you know physical injuries or structural problems. They're very consistent and predictable.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Like either they're always present or whatever's triggering them triggers them to basically the same level each and every time.

Speaker 1:

Well, and so what about the people listening to this Tanner that do kind of not really see much fluctuations or intensity but still maybe meet other criteria or believe it could be neuroplastic?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think that's an important piece because I think sometimes people hear oh, neuroplastic symptoms are supposed to be inconsistent. I have seen people where their symptom has been very consistent for years but they still related to the other criteria we're going to cover in these two episodes and their symptoms were still neuroplastic.

Speaker 1:

Yes and so, and because I think that can confuse people sometimes of like, oh, it's always very localized, it's always very consistent, and people can get really stuck there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so again, like we're just, we're just looking for clues. Don't go into spare mode, people. If you don't relate to a few of these criteria. I didn't relate to all of them and that's okay. Our next criteria spread or movement.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and again, not everyone relates to spread or movement, but this is something we commonly see as like oh, I have symptoms like in my shoulders and they're spreading down my arms and it's spreading down my legs, and yeah, yeah, and while this causes a lot of fear for people, confusion, frustration, on the bright side it suggests your pain or symptoms are neuroplastic and treatable, and so structural pain symptoms it's important to understand.

Speaker 2:

They're typically very consistent, as we've said, and they're localized to damaged parts or problems in the body. But if your symptoms are migrating, spreading to a larger area, spreading or moving to a new area, moving up and down, becoming symmetrical, this is often how neuroplastic pain and symptoms behave, because you have to understand neuroplastic pain and symptoms are brain generated.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So it's not due to, you know, damage in your body, your body sending signals to your brain that there's something wrong. So what you see over time again, not with everyone is that it may start in a small area and then all of a sudden it's new places and new places like it starts to increase.

Speaker 1:

Totally because the brain is generating it still, but just kind of generating it elsewhere for sure. All right, the next one that we look for is multiple symptoms, and again, not everyone relates to this. But one thing we want to mention about multiple symptoms is it's not common to have multiple structurally damaged areas of the body either at one time or kind of throughout life. So you can kind of reflect back and I'm like oh, I have multiple pain areas now, or I've had this pain and then a year later I had a this pain, and then a year later I had a different pain and a year later I had a different injury.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you kind of get both, where some people, it's just like new areas start to pop up and accumulate, and the other you almost get these like serial symptoms. Yes, like you said, like oh, my knee hurt for a while, my knee got better. Yeah, now my shoulder hurts, then my shoulder got better. Like yes, so like it's important to kind of look for this. Um, and I think one thing I'll mention here that I I find is really common with people with chronic pain, chronic symptoms myself as well, is we feel like we're the exception, so like I had so many areas of my body that were in pain and my narrative around that was I'm just the most unlucky person in the world to manage to have this damaged body in all these places.

Speaker 1:

Why do you think you had that narrative, tanner, and why do you think that's common?

Speaker 2:

Well, I didn't know about this area of kind of mind-body healing and that pain and symptoms could be fully brain generated. Like I didn't know that, so I just that was the easiest solution for me to go to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's some unlucky people in the world that do have bodies that are very damaged, unfortunately in multiple places, but it's really rare.

Speaker 1:

Yes Do have bodies that are very damaged, unfortunately in multiple places but it's really rare, yes, and I actually want to mention here kind of similar to that, thinking of that well, what if I am the one with structural pain? What if something's missed? And that makes me think of another podcast that we talked about about medical anxiety, and I talked about my experience with having preeclampsia in my pregnancies. And I talked about my experience with having preeclampsia in my pregnancies and following that, I would constantly be like in this thinking of what if something's being missed. And I want to emphasize or empathize and validate that that can be very scary and very powerful, and that's why it's always important to get things rolled out with your medical professionals and kind of have that as confirmation or validation that, okay, they are actually saying things are structurally sound or structurally safe with multiple symptoms. We also want to say what systemic disorders have been ruled out. So, again, that ruling out is an important piece of this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because systemic problems, diseases can present this way, and I'm always correct people like this shouldn't be your first block or stop on the road Like, yes, I hope people come to a brain and nervous system approach quicker than most. I think that's important, but it's really important to get things assessed and ruled out first. Okay. Next, Pain or symptom triggers are not connected to the body.

Speaker 1:

And I want to highlight that often, like stress or like stressful events, can fall in that category as well.

Speaker 2:

So activities can become associated with pain or symptoms. These are often referred to as condition responses and if you're noticing triggers that you wouldn't expect to impact you physically and they're making your symptoms worse, this can be a sinus neuroplastic. So some common triggers that really aren't very related to the body are things like weather. Triggers that really aren't very related to the body are things like weather, smells, sounds, foods, time of day, days of the week, stimulating environments, certain rooms, certain rooms.

Speaker 2:

I've had it with people with certain clothing where they were convinced like certain shirts were moving their shoulder out of place.

Speaker 1:

Like. We come up with all these reasons. I even had people with like certain objects in their home. We come up with all these reasons. I even had people with like certain objects in their home.

Speaker 2:

We come up with all these reasonings because that's what our brain's trying to figure out, but often what's happened is your brain's just started to label these conditions as threatening or dangerous.

Speaker 1:

Well, and then what can happen with this is, every time we kind of approach these things again, then pain comes on and the brain links them together yeah, and then we either kind of start avoiding that yeah Right or we fall into confusion of why that's happening and start going into this like rumination spiral.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and so if you're having triggers that or conditions that are sending off your symptoms that are not really related to the body, it's a clear sign that this is neuroplastic. Yes, it's a little trickier to figure out, but we use it a lot in our approach. You know, positions or movements are also misunderstood as dangerous when they're actually safe, like I gave the example, as walking. Walking wasn't damaging my hips or back. My pain was fully neuroplastic. My brain just started to misinterpret walking equals danger.

Speaker 1:

Could that be also like sitting in a certain position?

Speaker 2:

Yes, it could be sitting, it could be certain activities, but like it's harder when it's positions or movements, because we just assume, oh, our body must be damaged, but a lot of times it's just a miscommunication that's taking place, like now. I walk, like right before this podcast I walked 35, 40 minutes with our dog. Yeah, I can promise you, compared to 10 years ago, my spine is way worse off.

Speaker 2:

I'm as older but like I don't have pain, yeah, and so like you can break these associations. But you know, some of these associations, especially if they're not really things connected to your body, is really great evidence to be looking for.

Speaker 1:

Totally, and we'll keep talking about that. But also, like I think of our course, we guide people really clearly on how to do that. You have a lot of stuff on YouTube as well, so people are looking for resources of how to do that. Another criteria that we look for is delayed onset, so that just means pain occurring after the activity or even stressful event.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and this is a really clear sign. It can be neuroplastic. What you'll see with people is they'll do a workout or they'll walk or they'll do some type of physical movement and they will feel great in the moment. They're okay in the moment, not much symptoms. Then hours later, or the next day, all of a sudden they're getting like these bursts of symptoms taking place.

Speaker 1:

Well, and I think it can be confusing because it's like, okay, well, I did activity, say I did a workout, I played, you know, a game or a match with my friends. Of course I'm going to have pain and we're not talking about the kind of soreness that might happen when we're moving our muscles, totally yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because soreness is normal.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Like, if I go to the gym right now and do a bunch of different exercises I haven't done in many months, I'm going to get this delayed onset of soreness and you might feel stiff the next day when you wake up. Yes, and that's typical.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

That's how our body recovers and heals. What I'm talking about is pain, not soreness or symptoms. It could be like dizziness or fatigue or different things, because you have to understand that if something's physically triggered and you're doing something to aggravate, it.

Speaker 1:

You're going to feel it right in the moment, and that's a really great point to remember of like. If it's structural, I should be aggravating it right now.

Speaker 2:

And I had this experience every once in a while because I had so much avoidance of movements and positions by the end of my journey of pain. But every once in a while confident Tanner would come out. And confident Tanner, he doesn't come out as often as I'd like, but confident Tanner would be like I'm going to work out, so I'd go to the gym, work out for 20, 30 minutes and I'd feel great. I'd be like wow, I did it. And then, like the next day, I felt like I was hit by a train, like it was like so agonizing. And enough of those experiences happened. I just never did it again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that can be really difficult Because, of course, like our brain, we decide okay, I don't want that pain experience to happen, so I'm not going to do it.

Speaker 2:

And that's how our world becomes smaller and smaller and that conditioned response becomes more and more powerful. Next criteria symptoms occur without an injury.

Speaker 2:

So pain and symptoms can often occur with no preceding injury. I often hear people talk about I just woke up with this new pain or symptom. It came out of nowhere and we have to understand that often if you're experiencing physically triggered pain or symptoms, it's going to come after an injury. I'm saying injury with pain, but with like fatigue or dizziness. It could be an infection, but there is going to be some type of damaging event to bring the symptoms on. With neuroplastic symptoms, what I often see is they just come out of nowhere. You know for myself like some of my symptoms were brought on by what I perceived to be an injury.

Speaker 1:

What would be an example of what a perceived injury might look like, or what yours did?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so one of the early ones I had was, I think I had my right shoulder first and I was lifting weights and this was a little bit delayed as I lifted weights. And then, like you know, an hour later I had this like egg in my right shoulder. I was convinced that something went wrong. Yes, but again, I was doing military press and felt completely fine. So it was a delay, which I didn't know at the time. But it was a perceived injury. Yeah, or I've seen people be like you know, I went for a run, something clicked. I felt I heard a click. Yeah, I didn't feel anything. But the next day, all of a sudden, my my hip and legs in pain, so like there's a perceived injury.

Speaker 1:

Because that's what our brain does it's trying to make predictions sometimes there can, like people talk to me about, like maybe a slight injury, maybe something actually really was a little bit of injury, but the pain didn't make sense for that. It was way higher, way more intense, much.

Speaker 2:

The other thing is that what if there was an injury?

Speaker 1:

Yes, and that's something we commonly see as well.

Speaker 2:

Because with some people we work with there was an injury at the beginning. Yeah, but when injured, you know pain and symptoms. They're appropriate at first, but it's really vital to understand injuries typically heal within a few weeks to a few months.

Speaker 1:

Can you say that again, tanner, because this is a big piece.

Speaker 2:

Injuries typically heal within a few weeks to a few months. I worked with a lady, not as a client, like we both worked at a job together. She had a horrible accident where she I think she like fell off a wall or something and she snapped her arm.

Speaker 1:

Like fell off a wall.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Like she was like like in a field and like didn't realize there was a retainer wall fell snapped the arm, it still healed, like it healed.

Speaker 2:

It took a while because that was a huge injury, but over several months it got better. You know what I mean. So like one thing that happens, I think, with our medicalized society is we really view that, like our bodies, you know, damaged in some way all the time or flawed, but we evolve to be able to heal from injury, and so what will happen to people is like they have an injury, they get pain or physical symptoms. Injury heals or infection heals. Pain and symptoms continue on. So, it becomes neuroplastic over time.

Speaker 1:

And that's a really good thing to kind of reflect on that. If, okay, my body should have healed, but it feels like it hasn't because it's been so long. Or is my medical team saying oh yeah, it's healed and now we don't know why you still have pain?

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, another one that we look for is unsuccessful physical diagnosis or treatment. So that might mean having various scans, tests and assessments, but nothing is accurately explaining your pain or symptoms. So maybe they're coming up clearer or they're finding things, but it still doesn't quite make sense to like why you're experiencing this intense pain or maybe where you're experiencing it. Different physical treatments aren't really helpful, or maybe so we think of this a bit as like a hope or placebo, where they help, like a little bit, but then they stop helping.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it doesn't like permanently help, and that's a common one too, is that I often ask people it's not just that you know doctors or physicians can't really find something major going on to explain all your symptoms. Yeah, but yeah, you're right, like it's the like, have you tried the physical route in terms of treatments?

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

Because if you tried, you know so many physical treatments and they're not working. Yes, it may mean you're trying to treat your physical body when this is actually a brain and nervous system issue.

Speaker 1:

Ah, yeah, and it's not uncommon to go that route. Again, this is not normally people's first stop on the block, and so exploring it medically, with different medical treatments and all those pieces is really common. But yeah, if you keep hitting a wall and pain and symptoms don't really get better or they come back, that's something to think about.

Speaker 2:

We made it through it. Yes, and so this was our first we made it through it, yes, and so this was our first part one talking about the criteria, yeah, and really how do? You know, yeah, if your pain and symptoms are neuroplastic. So next episode that we'll release next week is going to cover category two of the criteria, which is sensitization factors.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So until next week, you know, look for clues.

Speaker 1:

Ah, be the detective, but don't be too good of a detective. I want to say Like, don't be like too intense around it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we want consistency, but not intensity like consistency, consistently looking for evidence, looking how you relate to these criteria, but don't do it for nine hours a day.

Speaker 1:

Totally so kind of do it with this like, okay, I'm going to be curious and watch, and if we see them we also don't have to panic. It's just more like oh, I see this that confirms that there is neuroplastic or neuroplastic component.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the last measures I'll leave with people. What we're actually going for here is curiosity. That's it most of us have, like this hyper focus, laser focus, fear. But you can't be fearful and curious at the same time yeah, I like that, I like it right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like nancy drew, she was curious bringing in nancy drew again I feel like she's important. Oh, was she curious or fearful? She was curious. Maybe You're bringing in Nancy Drew again. I feel like she's important.

Speaker 2:

Was she curious or fearful? She was curious. Maybe she was a fearful detective.

Speaker 1:

No, no Is Nancy Drew a real person. No, she's like fiction.

Speaker 2:

I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Oh God.

Speaker 2:

Sherlock Holmes was a real person. What were they?

Speaker 1:

I don't know, I don't know, were they not?

Speaker 2:

No, was, I don't know? I don't know. Are they?

Speaker 1:

not. Is it based on a real person?

Speaker 2:

I think they're all fiction, oh damn, I don't read a lot of fiction books.

Speaker 1:

Okay, tyler, just stop talking now. You're like going down, so we're going to end this episode on just me like failing.

Speaker 2:

All right, we'll talk to you all next week.

Speaker 1:

Talk to you next week. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, instagram and.

Speaker 2:

Facebook accounts in the episode description. We wish you all healing.