The Mind-Body Couple

Embodiment: The Missing Key to Healing Chronic Pain and Illness

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 103

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Ever wondered why your pain/symptom persists despite countless treatments? The missing piece might be simpler than you think. Tanner and Anne reveal how our tendency to disconnect from uncomfortable bodily sensations actually perpetuates pain and symptom cycles rather than resolving them.

Through candid stories about tax scares and zip-lining disasters, they illustrate the dramatic difference between being overwhelmed by sensations versus staying present with them. This isn't just theory—brain scans actually show people with chronic pain have decreased activation in areas that sense the body, while experiencing heightened emotional responses. The result? A brain that misinterprets safe signals as dangerous ones.

The hosts break down two essential principles for healing through embodiment: gradual exposure to uncomfortable sensations paired with creating safety signals that keep you connected without becoming overwhelmed. This delicate balance allows your nervous system to recalibrate and recognize when you're truly safe.

Whether you've been struggling with persistent pain/symptoms for years or just beginning to notice troubling symptoms, this episode offers practical wisdom for creating a healthier relationship with your body's signals.

Ready to start your embodiment journey? The hosts provide free resources to begin practicing these techniques today, guiding you toward a life where sensations no longer trigger fear but offer valuable information for your healing path.

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married! In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were occurring due to learned brain pathways and nervous system dysregulation. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make gradual changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, which is an in-depth online course that provides step-by-step guidance for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Also check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Discl...

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the MindBodyCouple podcast.

Speaker 2:

I'm Tanner Murtaugh and I'm Anne Hampson. This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms. If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapyca or purchase our online course at embodycommunitycom to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. Hi everyone.

Speaker 2:

Hi, everybody, welcome, I'm a little bit involved, so I'll explain this first and don't get too upset. Okay, so you know we're in the process, me and Leanne in toilet training. Yes, Our daughter.

Speaker 1:

And I have to say it's quite a journey. If anyone knows, or relates to having young children and toilet training them, it is definitely a journey for the child and the parent.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, in the final stages, mm-hmm. So last Monday, anne home with our daughter.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we're practicing her being in underwear instead of pull-ups yeah, so a lot of peeing on the floor is really where we were at that night I come home and goes out hang out with your horse.

Speaker 2:

Yes, horsey time yes and me and my son and my daughter doing like tickle fights. We're like playing in the hallway. She just gets up, goes, goes to the toilet, goes to the bathroom.

Speaker 1:

Which is amazing because I don't think that's really ever happened before in our home. And so I get home and Tanner's like something amazing happened and he tells me about it and then he's like it was because of me.

Speaker 2:

I well to be clear, I said I have a certain presence.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, and let's be fair, I have been working on this for months and like grinding it out with our daughter for months. Tanner, once in a while, is encouraging them to maybe sit on the potty, and now he's taking all the glory. So I think all of the mothers listening to this probably are just hopefully siding with me and super angry.

Speaker 1:

I have a feeling they're siding with you, I bet because this happens to be kind of like something that happens with us, where I'll do all the work but tanner will take credit right, it's the.

Speaker 2:

It's the presence yeah, and not claims, and it wasn't here and it was so you, because then, two days later, the same thing happens.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, tanner's presence allowed her to go sit on the putty.

Speaker 2:

But I am joking. You're doing a lot of the hard work.

Speaker 1:

I feel like also, he's just saying this for the sake of the podcast. I'm not.

Speaker 2:

It's unfortunate. It's clicking in your brain when you're not around.

Speaker 1:

So that's what we've been working on for the last week. Our topic is a bit different than that, and I think we'll kind of switch gears and head to that. What we want our topic to be today is the idea that embodiment is the key to healing chronic pain and symptoms.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and so we're going to move through this. We're going to move through this, we're going to define it, we're going to explain what exactly embodiment is, because it's kind of a trendy term nowadays right like they're embodied like. It's like uh, it's a trendy instagram term that's thrown out a lot. I really like the term. I think there's a lot of utility, totally, and we're going to explain what this is and how it can help people heal chronic pain, chronic symptoms. I have two stories for you.

Speaker 1:

Both around the same.

Speaker 2:

Are they?

Speaker 1:

where you're taking all the credit away from other people. They're not Okay. Just joking Wow.

Speaker 2:

You're really just Right, well, I feel yeah, no, okay, go ahead. Okay, don't worry, they don't involve anything about me taking credit.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I promise Two stories similar topic, both involving scary emails from the CRA. Those are scary stories.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the CRA is like the tax, the government-like tax organization that when you run a business you're interacting the CRA, like in in the US. This is the IRS same thing. I'll give you a story from many years ago, when I first started the company, about Tanner myself not being embodied. Okay, I got this letter. They always send them at like four in the morning this, this email. It's terrible, it's so mean.

Speaker 2:

So you like wake up to it with your morning coffee. You wake up and you like, open your email and you just get the CRA being like you know, you've messed something up, you're going to owe a lot of money, or I can't remember what exactly was written. Instantly sheer panic, because I had never really dealt with the CRA. Yes, I'm panicked. I panic because I had never really dealt with the CRA.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I'm panicked, I'm having fear thoughts.

Speaker 2:

Well, and these emails are very confusing to understand as well. And this is me not being embodied. Yes, I was feeling emotions, yes, I was feeling panic, but it was lost in my mind trying to problem solve, fix, figure it out, and just lost, just disconnected from my body instantly. And this went on for a day or so until I got a hold of my accountant.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So, to reiterate, this is an example of you not being embodied Exactly, even though you're flooded with emotions and sensations, yeah, but you're kind of up and lost in your mind about them, yeah, and kind of like panic.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I'm disconnected, like there's no sense of safety in my body. It's a sense of safety in my body, is this okay? So, and we're going to talk about what embodiment actually is. But I wasn't really dropping in, I was trying to avoid at all costs what I was feeling. Yes. Similar story a couple years later, more recently, where again this year.

Speaker 2:

I was contacting you again always contacting you I know and at this point you know I'm a little more regulated- Okay, a couple years in, I've run a business, our second business has started at this point, like I'm used to this, right, so I will give contacts, get the CRA email.

Speaker 2:

Four in the morning again, oh, yes, of course, drink my coffee and when it hits, I remember there was anxiety and panic, right, but there wasn't a feeling of me trying to run away from it. There was a feeling of like, oh, this is a scary email. I'm okay to feel scared right now. And did I have thoughts? Yes, there was thoughts around problem solving, sending this to my accountant, getting this sorted, but I was still very connected, like I was in the present moment, with how I was feeling, with my thoughts.

Speaker 1:

Were you slowing down to actually like spend time with how you're feeling and like notice and be aware of that? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So very quickly, like I have certain breathing patterns that I'm doing, yeah. As I'm doing this and again, I'm not using the breathing to run away how I'm feeling. I'm using it as this, as we're going to talk about later in this episode the safety signal that allows me to stay connected to my body and to the present moment.

Speaker 1:

Oh, an interesting tenor, because the first example you talked about, you were just going into this panic response, you shut up into your head and your own mind and like really thinking and you weren't really paying attention to that physical sensations you weren't spending time with and you mentioned avoiding you're avoiding that yes, yeah, yeah, and that's what happens a lot with people yeah, and we're going to talk about this a bit, but embodiment it, it.

Speaker 1:

It can occur even when you're feeling unpleasant things like you can stay in our body with it and not be running away well, and I think this is a good time to talk about the definition of embodiment, and so when we think of it, we think of like being deeply connected to our physical, felt sense, and so that might mean body sensations, different senses, that might be like movement or perceptions, emotions, or maybe our nervous system state and that kind of awareness and moving towards it like you described. So spending time with it, letting that be information for us when we want to be embodied, say, that would be living life through these sensations instead of always caught up in your head. So I like your examples, tanner, of the second one you're allowing yourself to be really in tune with that, what those sensations were doing for you, and allowing them to breed some sort of safety, even though they were difficult sensations and so you weren't running away. That would be a very embodied response.

Speaker 2:

And for a lot of people, you know we aren't embodied, yes, and we're not taught this. It's not modeled for us, and so it's.

Speaker 1:

It's quite a new concept well, and I think, like with your examples, tanner, when we're afraid, we feel fear and we feel those sensations, but we often rely on our thinking mind to get us through, and so we could shoot up there, which you did, and we ignore all of the physical sensations going on in our body. It's like they become secondary, even though they are driving us to panic too.

Speaker 2:

And one thing that I see happen with embodiment and I like when you describe the definition as living life through your body and nervous system, right, right, because our society, most people, know what mindfulness is right being able to attend to things inside the breath sensation, being able to attend with our senses and what I see people do this is so common is people will do their 15 minutes of mindfulness practice and that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that, that's important but then they spend the rest of the day in their head thinking, not connected at all. And so you know this long, lasting, day by day feeling of embodiment, like we need to have this kind of informal connection throughout time, not in your 15 minute practice once a day only.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so it's almost like a way of, I guess, a way of living, like we said, or a way of being throughout your day. I'm like, can I have a relationship, maybe, with my thinking mind, but also a relationship with my sensations going on in my body as well?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and when we talk about why we aren't embodied, there's a number of different reasons.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and when we talk about why we aren't embodied.

Speaker 2:

there's a number of different reasons For some of this is just, you know, family patterns that have been learned, or social norms.

Speaker 1:

What would be like an example of something that was learned.

Speaker 2:

Maybe you know something really common that you know, I learned from my dad, which is not a negative thing when there's a problem, what do you do? You problem solve? You think about it. Yes, you figure out a solution, you act Right. And the problem is is like a lot of times we're just like we're cutting ourselves off neck up. Yes, we're like we're not taking any cues off our body.

Speaker 2:

This is a purely intellectual thing and this happens, happens like this, is like society has kind of built us like this, because when we think about another reason you're not embodied is like this intellectualizing, like we really value that in our society yeah like, how smart are you, how bad, how good can you think things through, like we, we kind of pump living in our mind, yeah, and so, as a result, we're we're kind of at a disadvantage right from the start, because this is what we're taught. The second thing that happens is this pathologizing of emotions, or expressing of emotions, like we're taught that anything that isn't pleasant inside is dangerous and to not notice it or attend to it.

Speaker 1:

Right, and so the tendency then is then just to avoid. And so I think, with what happened with your example, is you felt really unpleasant sensations, emotions and fears, and you're just kind of avoid, go into problem solving. But, as someone once told me, that our emotions all have to go somewhere, and so even if we avoid them and we don't kind of like listen to them, they're still impacting us in some way, they're still trying to inform us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and these last three that I want to talk about really make sense of why we avoid embodiment like being in our body in any way. When we have chronic nervous system dysregulation, which is a lot of unpleasant sensations. When we have pain, nervous system dysregulation which is a lot of unpleasant sensations, when we have pain or physical symptoms or we have trauma, like all of these create a lot of unpleasantness inside. So why would we want to attend to that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's super natural to start avoiding moving away, to shoot up into our minds and going to like fix it or problem solving type mode, especially when it comes to really difficult sensations going on in our body, yeah, but when we want to work through trauma, pain, symptoms, dysregulation, there needs to be this slow, gradual attention, connection to the body and creating safety with it well, yeah, and that brings us to kind of understanding why develop embodiment and you said it right there, tanner embodiment heals neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Speaker 1:

we need to have a relationship with our body, our sensations, understand our nervous system, states and what's going on in there, to create safety with those sensations and within our body. And a lot of time when I'm meeting with people, I talk with them about having a new relationship with their body, one that can breed safety and kind of connection and make us feel okay to spend time inside of our bodies.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's a really important piece to just understand that this is a big part of the solution. Yeah, when it comes to healing our chronic pain, chronic symptoms, you know one thing that I hear people say a lot as I bring up this concept in session or various things, even on social media. I had a few people comment on this recently.

Speaker 1:

I'm already embodied.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I constantly feel pain or symptoms, of course, yes, I constantly feel pain or symptoms.

Speaker 1:

Of course, I'm in body, I can feel them, yeah, which which also again makes sense. Yeah, um, and is very true, and so those sensations are very much present. Um, again, I like going back to tanner's examples, because he was feeling those sensations but not tending to them.

Speaker 2:

In the first example, yeah, and it's a common assumption we make, but it's important to understand, like usually when we feel pain, symptoms, emotions, dysregulation, our response is one of these two things. Yes, First, this could be hyper-focus on sensations, whether it's, like you know, fight, flight free, shutdown energy. We are using this to almost like laser focus, hawk mode, like a lock on to them and people test, right, like you're testing, if your pain symptoms are still there. Right, you're tracking them, you're trying to physically fix them, change them, and a whole host of unpleasant emotions start to occur as a result of what we're feeling inside.

Speaker 1:

Right. And this hyper focus, yes, would be kind of moving towards the emotions or sensations, but not in a safe way, not in a way that kind of allows us to have that relationship of what is my sensations telling me, or that connectedness.

Speaker 2:

And there's a desired outcome.

Speaker 2:

When people are like hyper-focused. They're trying to control them, to make their pain symptoms difficult. Emotions go down, like there's like it's not true just connection, creating safety with it. So it's driven by fear. Still, yes, yes. Now the second thing that people will commonly do is just avoidance. Shift away from any type of feeling inside that feels unpleasant, move into thinking right. This could be thinking about symptoms, thinking about problems in your life. For some people, they continue to research ideas or diagnosis of their pain or symptoms and there's basically this sense of just trying to distract yourself.

Speaker 1:

Yes and look, I'm all for strategic distraction when we use kind of in a way that where it's helpful. But this would be an idea of completely distracting, um, and not tending to them in emotions or body sensations at all yeah, and I I think you bring up a fair point, like you.

Speaker 2:

No one's not gonna always be embodied, like it's not possible, like we all need some avoidance sometimes. But if you're doing one of these two things or alternating between them, whether it's hyper focus or avoidance, and that's typically a response to sensations inside, that's not embodiment. That's not what we're talking about. It and again, I don't want people to be critical of this. I did both of these things. It makes sense. This is the normal human response that we have when something feels unpleasant.

Speaker 1:

Well, and so do I. I do those things as well, and so, again, I like that you say that it's kind of a normal human response. It's very natural to do this. What we're talking about is trying to kind of shift of like okay, can I respond in a way that isn't about fear or driven by fear, to my body and my sensations?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think there's been some Some cool developments in neuroscience around this, of the neuroscience research that shows us what low embodiment looks like in the brain when we experience things like chronic pain, chronic symptoms. The fMRI brain scans show us that we have decreased activation in areas that sense the body. So like areas that actually sense the body decrease. What actually increases, in contrast, is activation in areas responsible for emotions and memory. So it's an interesting idea around some of this, because this shows us that our brain isn't functioning in the usual way that safely senses our body. Instead, what happens to people is they get overloaded. They get overloaded by these difficult emotions, by memory informing danger, and this is why symptoms start to be generated.

Speaker 1:

And so if I was listening to this and struggling with chronic pain and relating to what you just said, it might be really scary to think of trying to become embodied then yeah, if we're experiencing that, Tanner, it isn't an instant fix, and I think that's the important piece to understand about this is it's going to take some time to reconnect with the body.

Speaker 2:

But the good news is, using embodiment practices, we can wake up the present moment body sensing parts of our brain. So things like embodiment practices, somatic practices, allow us to take neuroplasticity essentially into our own hands and we can start to retrain the brain and create this sense of embodiment over time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that might start really small. Sometimes I might just be pausing and checking in okay, what's happening in my body. Can I approach that with a bit of lightness instead of fear? And if that's all we can do for one second, that's a start. So it's like a gradual kind of working on it, of like, okay, can I move towards what's going on and being aware of my body.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I like what you said there. You know essentially what we're trying to do and we're going to talk about the two principles of embodiment and eschaton here, but we're trying to direct this curious, mindful attention to our body again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that might be emotions, that might be, um, our pain and symptoms that we're feeling, um, that might be dysregulation, that's bringing different kinds of sensations going on, um, and so it is that curiosity with anything going on in our body in that physical sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and over time this will help your brain reappraise signals coming from the body, because we understand, with neuroplastic pain and symptoms there's miscommunication going on, safe signals are coming up. So you have back pain. Safe signals are coming up from your back, but your brain, because it's been stuck in the state of danger, it's firing off pain and so by doing embodiments, by reconnecting to sensations, it helps our brain reappraise oh, the body's actually safe. Yes, we don't need to fear it anymore, we can drop into it. Yeah, so let's move into discussing the two principles of embodiment.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the first principle is exposure, and so I know we've talked about exposure in different ways on this podcast.

Speaker 1:

Often the idea of exposure is to overcome any fear we might need to expose to it, and so a good example I like to share with people is a simple phobia.

Speaker 1:

If we have a phobia, say flying or heights, and we want to overcome that, we would gradually expose ourselves to maybe the fear, the anxiety, what's going on in our bodies, and slowly move towards trying to kind of get on that airplane. The more we expose to it, expose to the anxiety, expose to getting closer to that airplane, the safer we should start to feel in time. If we avoid it, that increases fear and dysregulation in the body, and so we want to learn to approach safely, to retrain the brain. That would be the work we would do with the phobia. That is the same with different sensations going on in our bodies. That would be the same with emotions, and so if those are things we typically, typically avoid, we would also want to overcome fear around those sensations as well yeah, and when we understand chronic pain, chronic symptoms, we often have this dysregulated response to them yes, just like a phobia of flying.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and so that's what we're doing is we're dropping in, we're getting exposure. And the one thing I was thinking okay, this is a great.

Speaker 1:

Are you thinking about your when you went ziplining? Oh yeah, that was terrible.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, I just threw that in there because Tanner has a fear of heights. I have a terrible fear of heights. Real quick story. Terrible fear of heights. I can go on airplanes Like I get nervous.

Speaker 1:

You get nervous, though. I do get nervous, but kind of like what I just shared, tanner the more you've gone, I do get nervous, but kind of like what I just shared, tedder, the more you've gone. Easier it is, easier it is yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like now I get nervous, my hands get sweaty when we're taking off, but outside of that, like I don't overthink about it anymore because I've had enough exposure. But I had this really big exposure where it went too far. So years back my friend had a bachelor party, yeah, and they wanted to go ziplining and I knew about this months before.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, he would talk to you about it in panic months before. So I had a choice.

Speaker 2:

And it was a tough choice. I had the choice of either I go ziplining and face this really big fear, or I don't go ziplining and I get made fun of by the rest of the guys for the rest of the trip. This is my options and my friends are pretty nice but they would razz me about it for sure. So I decided to go. First two. I was good to go, yeah. But after the second one, the problem with ziplining once you're gone you're stuck on the line Like you're going through the whole track. Yeah, on, you're stuck on the line like you're you're going through the whole track, yeah. And the next ones were all on these platforms, like nailed to trees, like hundreds of feet up.

Speaker 1:

By the end I was like almost non-responsive yeah, like I was just like getting pushed by my friends, and so we have to be careful with exposure, because that was way outside of what I could tolerate well, I know, okay, so that wouldn't be gradual.

Speaker 1:

So, okay, your phobia of heights or zip lining, you kind of like threw yourself to the wolves there too far. And so when we start to move towards things that we're afraid of or things that maybe we're not used to, so think sensations and we're trying to kind of change relationship with them and create safety, has to be gradual. We have to kind of ease into it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and this kind of leads us into our second principle of embodiment Right, which is safe connection, coming home to the body with a sense of safety.

Speaker 1:

And so back to the zip lining experience. How would have that been better for you to create that in a gradual way where you had some amount of safety there, If there had just been the two ziplines and I could have stopped, then that would have been a perfect amount.

Speaker 2:

I've thought about this many times over the years. It would have been a perfect amount. I probably would have gone and done some breath work, calmed myself down. It would have been a perfect amount. I probably would have gone and done some breath work, calm myself down. It would have been a healing win. It turned into a disaster because there was like nine in a row and I couldn't tolerate that much.

Speaker 1:

For someone then, trying to kind of connect to the sensations in their body, what would be like and everyone's different, but a starting place like that then like and everyone's different, but a starting place like that then.

Speaker 2:

So you have to find, like how much time you can tolerate being in your body, because what we're touching on here is more time doesn't equal better result, right? Yeah, like, for some people attending to their pain or symptoms, they can only tolerate like 30 seconds to a minute. For other people I've worked with they can drop in for 10-15 minutes and be okay Because you know you're doing the exposure. But you need enough safety. You need one foot in safety and connection as you do exposures, because otherwise we just disconnect.

Speaker 1:

Well and that's a really good comment, tanner, because I think it's not uncommon that I hear of like well, you know, I need to do this for 10 minutes or 20 minute practice, and I know like that doesn't necessarily mean that kind of embodiment that we're talking about.

Speaker 2:

No, like it almost becomes so overwhelming to people that they disconnect, like my zip line experience. Yeah, you just click off and we don't want to get there because at that point the exposures become too much and there's not enough safety and connection. You actually think of them almost like a scale, side by side. They need to balance out, like you want the exposure to attend the things that are unpleasant, but you need enough safety on board. Yes, and so, as you're doing the exposure to, to create the safe connection. You want to be curious, observe your experience very much in the present moment. Right, that connection is key. As we're talking about, you're bringing awareness to your thoughts, physical sensations, these attitudes that Kabat-Zinn often talks about like non-striving, like no desired outcome.

Speaker 1:

As you're doing it, having a sense of compassion, acceptance for what is there, trust that you can tolerate this Well, and I really like that you say those three, especially when we think of connecting with the sensations around, emotions that we might have, of bringing in that compassion and acceptance.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and in our approach to create safety while attending to pain, symptoms, emotions, nervous system state, we not only focus on the unpleasant like don't get me wrong, we need that. We need the exposure to the unpleasant face, what we fear. But we can also create safety by focusing on what we call safety signals and I'll list them here and I'll explain some of my YouTube channels how people can access some of this for free. But in our approach we talk about breath, work, present moment sensing, like sight, sound, taste, touch, smell. We do some different tapping or massage routines to help people. This could be safe self-talk, like cognitive messages reminding yourself that you're safe to be with the sensations. Talk like cognitive messages reminding yourself that you're safe to be with the sensations. It could be visualization, like visualizing a happy person, place, memory, something that calms you, and it's also savoring the pleasant sensations within. And essentially what we're doing with people is we're giving them exposure and if the exposure becomes too much, we shift to a safety signal. Maybe they shift to a safety signal, yeah, like maybe they shift to attend to the sounds around them or the lack of sounds, and that starts to calm things down, ease things up, and then we shift back to what's unpleasant with it. Yeah, so we're going back and forth to keep someone in their body while having a sense of safety and connection, and so on my YouTube channel the link is in the description of this podcast episode.

Speaker 2:

If you go to the meditation section on my main channel YouTube page, there are endless practices. There's lots of safety signal practices that people can try out. So you can really get started with this for free. Our digital course, if people want kind of the upgraded version of a whole lot of practices. I think there's like 60 plus somatic practices, brain retraining practices in there. People can check that out too. The link is in the description of this video as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, and I like this and it kind of makes me think of like our, our story about our daughter, because in some way she's on a journey towards kind of becoming embodied as well and understanding her body and what it's telling her signals right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and it needs to be gradual and it's a journey.

Speaker 1:

It's a journey, yeah it's a journey as well, and so, again, we want to highlight that this is a journey of like. We don't just wake up embodied one day of like, feeling like oh I am, you know, feeling safe and connected to my body. It's a journey and a practice, um and for kids and for my daughter, often supported by her mother, you know there you go and my healing presence. No, no, bye All right.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you everyone for listening.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next week. Talk to you next week. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, instagram and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

Speaker 2:

We wish you all healing.