The Mind-Body Couple

How to Overcome Negative Thinking about Your Chronic Pain or Illness (Meditation Included)

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 118

Share episode

Ever notice how your thoughts about pain or symptoms seem to make it worse? You're not imagining things—negative thinking patterns actually trigger and intensify chronic pain and symptoms by dysregulating your nervous system.

In this revealing episode, we dive deep into the powerful connection between your thoughts and physical symptoms. Drawing from both professional expertise and personal experience, we share our own recent struggles with anxiety spirals—Anne's obsessive worrying about her horse's health and Tanner's business-related stress—and how we applied therapeutic techniques to break free.

The mind-body connection isn't just theoretical. When caught in patterns of fearful, hopeless, or obsessive thinking, you create a sensitization cycle where pain/symptoms leads to dysregulation, which leads to more symptoms. These thinking habits might have been present before your symptoms developed, but they take on new power when chronic pain/symptoms enters the picture.

We introduce the transformative "3R" technique—Realize, Re-examine, and Restore (which originates from Pain Reprocessing Therapy)—a powerful framework for shifting from mind to body and breaking negative thought cycles. This Technique comes from Pain Reprocessing Therapy. The skill works because, as polyvagal theory expert Deb Dana explains, "story follows state." Your nervous system state determines the story your mind creates.

The episode includes a complete guided meditation that walks you through the Three R process, teaching you to observe thoughts non-judgmentally, re-examine their validity, and restore safety by shifting awareness to your body. This practice is especially valuable for anyone caught in pain/symptom-focused thinking or symptom-checking behaviors.

Ready to transform your relationship with chronic pain and illness? Listen now to discover how changing your thinking patterns can create lasting relief—and experience our guided meditation designed specifically for pain reprocessing. Your healing journey begins with understanding the power of your thoughts.

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married! In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were occurring due to learned brain pathways and nervous system dysregulation. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make gradual changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, which is an in-depth online course that provides step-by-step guidance for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Also check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Discl...

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the MindBodyCouple podcast.

Speaker 2:

I'm Tanner Murtaugh and I'm Anne Hampson. This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

Speaker 1:

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapyca or purchase our online course at or purchase our online course at embodycommunitycom to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools and an interactive community focused on healing.

Speaker 2:

Links in the description of each episode. Hello everyone.

Speaker 1:

Hi, everybody Welcome.

Speaker 2:

Welcome, we are back. We took a few weeks off this month.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

From podcast. So me and Anne were away with our kids, yeah, and then our producer, alex, got some nice time away as well. But we're hoping to be a little more consistent, moving forward for everyone.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and so we're excited to have a podcast for you right now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so today we're going to talk about the topic of how to overcome negative thinking about your chronic pain and illness.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I like this topic because I think at least three quarters of the people I talk to, Tanner, struggle with negative thinking around their chronic pain and illness, which makes sense.

Speaker 2:

Yes, now in today's episode, we are going to explain how negative thinking can trigger and worsen your chronic pain and illness. We're going to explain a vital skill you can start using to change your thinking and also stick around until the end of this episode, as we're providing a free shifting mind to body meditation. That is from our digital course Awesome, it's going to be great, yeah. So here's the thing when most of us experience chronic pain and symptoms, our thinking can become negatively biased. I find this is like so common with almost every person we work with.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure it is.

Speaker 2:

Now, these thinking habits may have been even present for a lot of people before their pain and symptoms developed.

Speaker 1:

And they might come in forms of fearful, hopeless, self-critical or obsessive thoughts that can trigger and perpetuate pain and symptoms.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I find like, even for myself, like when I had chronic pain and symptoms, I was obsessed with it. Yes, no question about that. Yeah, however, little Tanner, when I was like five, seven years old Little Tanner.

Speaker 1:

I'm imagining little Tanner.

Speaker 2:

It's funny because maybe people don't know this. You haven't met me, but I'm like really little.

Speaker 1:

He's like still little. He's little Tanner still.

Speaker 2:

I didn't grow much from age seven to 35, but littler Tanner, at age seven I was obsessed with things. I would get locked onto things. It would almost become overexcitement and then like distressing Right. But it just took off when my pain and symptoms developed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I think for a lot of people this happens where they may have had some of these negative thinking patterns or obsessive tendencies. Yeah, and they just like took off when their pain and symptoms occurred.

Speaker 1:

And again that makes sense, why that might happen. And I want to take a moment to validate why that happens, because I think often when we're faced with something that we perceive as a problem, we want to think, think, think, think about it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's just so vital to understand. I know we've said it already like five times, but these negative thinking patterns can trigger and perpetuate your symptoms. Really vital to understand that connection and the reason is is it causes our nervous system to become further dysregulated.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's key. I almost think you should say that line again, tanner. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

These negative thinking patterns will dysregulate your system, which is going to sensitize your system, which is going to produce pain and symptoms.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we're talking about negative thinking patterns Like that's a big focus for today, but again obsessive rooted thinking patterns that usually have a negative slant anyways as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I find a lot of people that we work with in this mind body space. They have these pathological beliefs about their body, these fearful beliefs about movements or activities and other things triggering their symptoms. Yes, and these pathological views, they just feed what we call the sensitization cycle. So you have pain and symptoms and then you have a dysregulated response. The more dysregulated you get, the more pain and symptoms. So it just starts to feed naturally this cycle.

Speaker 1:

And a big step is starting to recognize that cycle in yourself and however that shows up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think a lot of times. Our producer, alex, talks about this. I like how he talks about this. He has people consider the power of their thinking. It's really vital and the power can be in the right or wrong direction, unfortunately, because with neuroplasticity, these patterns of thinking can wire our brain towards suffering or healing. These thoughts guide our nervous system towards regulation or dysregulation. And this thinking, it's not just this metaphysical experience. These beliefs and ideas directly impact your physical body.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and this is actually. This podcast is often we're talking about kind of ignoring thoughts, but this is a really good podcast to talk about where thoughts do make an impact and where we need to pay attention.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I find in our approach like even you consider our course the somatic safety method. Yes, so obviously in the title, where we're very focused on the somatic. But I do think these thoughts, these belief systems, we do need to do some work with them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it has a place, and really taking a moment to maybe pause and think about how much do I have that negative feedback loop going on is super important, because that can be happening all the time in the background and we don't even realize it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it becomes such a familiar place for people to sit that they don't even realize when it's happening, and we can gain a sense of safety and empowerment by developing safer thinking patterns. So we're going to tell a little story now about me and Anne.

Speaker 1:

And how we've been in the throes of negative thinking lately.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so we had a rough night.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, we did.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting because, me and Anne, one of our benefits is we tend to get anxious about different things and at different times.

Speaker 1:

Totally. We're not usually both in high anxiety at the same time, which is good.

Speaker 2:

It's helpful. It helpful we got. We got one person that's creating safety and connection for the other. It's usually me. Oh, you don't have to. Just I'm like the anchor you are the anchor of our households you are the anchor of our lives, but anyway, go on, it's hurtful but true, yeah, um, you know, a lot of times you know when I'm anxious, Ann will support me. When Ann's anxious, I'll support her Now. Last night we put our kids to bed.

Speaker 1:

We're both very anxious about different things.

Speaker 2:

We're both spiraling in our mind about different things. Now I'll let Ann go first to explain her aspect and I'll explain mine.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and this, and so what I'm going to talk about is an area where I've definitely been struggling with negative thinking and obsessive negative thinking. And so, as some of you guys might know, we've been mentioning that I do equine assisted therapy and I've been in that world for a number of years and I've been leasing a horse, but I recently bought him. It's been about two months and since I've purchased him, I've been in fear spiral like no other and I've been terrified and I've been obsessive. Yeah, and I've been trying to keep that on the down low because I'm, you know, don't really I've been trying to kind of pretend that's not going on and hiding that from Tanner yeah, hiding that from Tanner. And then yesterday I came home and I just shared with him that I have been Googling how to be a horse owner obsessively, constantly throughout the day my horse.

Speaker 1:

He struggles with arthritis and once the vet confirmed that, I was like just spiraling out of control, Googling everything I can about arthritis. I've been going down all these rabbit holes. I've been not believing people in my life saying, oh, he seems fine. I feel like I'm relating in some ways to that Google obsessiveness need to fix.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's specifically just about chronic pain, even.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, about his pain.

Speaker 2:

But more about your horse, and you know his condition.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, like I think it's just it's so sneaky, right Because it starts small.

Speaker 1:

Well, and that really snuck up on me in terms of like oh, I need to fix, figure this out, control it. In this background of like I'm not good enough or I can't do this, negative thinking going on.

Speaker 2:

And we talked about this last night, and one thing me and Ann are very aware of as therapists is we try not to do too much reassurance seeking, because I think this is so common. I'm all for people getting support from family members and friends. This is like this double-edged sword. I'm open for people getting support. I want people to feel supported and validated for what they're going through. But what you see, often when they have people in their life, like when I had pain, it was the same thing. I'd ask you over and over again Am I doing the right thing? Should I do this? Do you think my pain is getting worse, like I was? I wasn't just talking for support to you, it was almost this reassurance seeking, and so I think when either of us are obsessive thinking, we're pretty careful with each other in that way, because the thing about like reassurance it'll provide like a slight moment of relief and then it's just going to escalate everything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's what I've been doing is looking for that reassurance, looking through, kind of like you know, the Google, the Google trap of like I need a bit of reassurance here, and then it's been increasing my fear. My fear and obsessive spiral has been giant. It's been in the way of, like my kids and my family, like it's just taken over my mind, and the more I feed it, the worse it's getting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know we, we had a good talk last night. Yeah, we're going to explain the skill after our stories here that you can start to utilize. But we did some problem solving.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we decided to no more Google no more Google which is funny because I tell people that all the time when they're stuck in obsessive thinking or when clients talk to me about obsessing about their pain and symptoms. So I know that, but, as you're right, it's very hard to put into action.

Speaker 2:

Now, one thing we're going to talk about in the skill we're going to explain is this ability to shift from your mind to your body. Yes, and Anne's ability to do that, compared to mine, is far greater. Wow, you do Like I've seen it, and even last night, after our kids were settled or watching our show, like I saw, I almost like felt the shift that happened with you because we're watching Grey's Anatomy right now. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And Anne was all of a sudden like laughing with the TV. Yes, In the present moment there was a shifting out of that spiral that took place.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, that's right, and I was able to be present and present, focused and a little bit of like that radical acceptance of like. Oh yeah, this pattern is not helpful. There's only so much I can do or control, and leaning into that and then allowing myself to be present. But it helped with talking to you about it, tanner, of like, almost like confessing to you, of like this is where I'm at and I'm struggling.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and we've re-examined your thoughts. And then you kind of shifted out. Yeah. You shifted out to the behaviors to be in your body, with the pleasantness of laughing and all of that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, now, at the same time, last night, so in that Tanner was also in high anxiety, yeah, so I have some business changes going on at work.

Speaker 2:

We're bringing on some new therapists Good things, but I find that pressure. It makes me start to worry. It makes me start to obsessively think. And this wasn't going on as long as Anne's talking about her thing, but this was just the last three, four days being caught in that and that was it, like I. I became really aware of it. I noticed like, oh yeah, I'm back here again. This is such a familiar pattern that I fall into, but it was sneaky.

Speaker 1:

Well, and was there Nate, when we think of that like negative thought process, there a negative, yeah kind of theme going on for you, Tanner yeah, like I think you know we, we got back from holiday, we got thrown back into work.

Speaker 2:

Like there was a lot of like moving pieces and stressors, yeah, that like escalated everything. But I dove into doing the work. Like last night I did an anxiety meditation, yeah, on my own. I did that upstairs in our bedroom while lying down. And then this morning I did some qigong. Uh, and during qigong I was giving myself some safe self-talk about the situation.

Speaker 1:

So there was a shifting to safety well and I like that because it sounds like it was very intentional where you're like okay, I recognize this has been going on. I'm going to intentionally shift.

Speaker 2:

Yes, because I know that the quicker I catch it the better, and we're going to explain a skill here Now. This skill originates from pain reprocessing therapy. Yeah, we outline it pretty greatly in our therapy practice and also in our digital course, and this skill we call the three R skill. So we'll explain it briefly, but we're also going to provide the meditation in a minute here that people can go and practice. Yes, now the three R skill has three steps. I'll start with the letter R, all right, easy to remember. Yeah, and you know the first R we call realize. So you realize that fear thoughts, despairing thoughts, critical thoughts, obsessive thinking is occurring, like for myself when I was obsessing about my business and worrying about it, if that had gone on for two months compared to three days it would have been way harder to change.

Speaker 1:

Yes, but that realizing the quicker you can bring awareness that you're dropping into negative thoughts, the better well, and something for me, because I think I've been knowing for a couple weeks now that I've been dropping into negative thoughts around this. I feel like a turning point for me yesterday, as I finally decided to maybe share that or, yeah, do something about it yeah, you almost named it out loud, yeah, essentially Ah, so again, that's that realize and then really name. This is what's happening Now. I need to shift.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and this kind of leads into the second R, which we both actually did last night Re-examine, look at where and what you're focusing on, the ideas and conclusions and the story that's being told. So you're re-examining. Now I'm careful with people, especially obsessive types like myself. If you're re-examining your thoughts for 20 minutes, you're not doing it right.

Speaker 1:

You're back into obsession.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, people get like debatey, yes, where, for example, they're trying to re-examine that their symptoms actually are neuroplastic, that there's nothing wrong with their body, but they almost get into debate mode, for they're going back and forth.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And that's not helpful. But you know, I saw you do this last night where you you re-examined, you realized, okay, a lot of the things I'm thinking definitely not true. Yeah, and definitely not helpful.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Because that's essential. It's the realizing, but then the re-examining that takes place Right Following it.

Speaker 1:

And then allowing yourself to land there. So again back to this idea of not re-examining. For 20 minutes over and over again, it's like okay, I looked at it, I re-examined. I'm trusting that re-examine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you may not fully believe it at first. Yeah, that's the hard part. Like last night when I was re-examining my thoughts, I believed it a bit, but I wasn't fully bought in. But, but I wasn't fully bought in. But, after doing a meditation last night and Qigong this morning, using safe self-talk, the belief developed over time.

Speaker 1:

I have to say I did one final look at chat GPT of my Googling after our conversation and I was like no more and I haven't. I haven't since.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you caught yourself. You had a little relapse.

Speaker 1:

I had a little relapse, but okay. But this also speaks to of like okay, trying to shift, it might be a bit of a process, it might be a bit of journey, of like oh, I need to kind of now work a little bit more at shifting away.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So these first two hours like to realize, reexamine. You're going to have to probably do them repetitively and we want it to be pretty quick Now. The last star is where you can get creative. Yeah, restore. You can restore safety in your nervous system, cognitively, behaviorally or somatically.

Speaker 1:

And that's where that somatic piece comes into this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, now, first off, cognitively, you could give yourself a more balanced line of thinking. Use some safe self-talk about your pain or symptoms or about whatever you're going through in life which you know is really essential. It's probably the quickest way to use the three R's where you realize, okay, I'm having fear. Thoughts you re-examine, okay, that's not true or helpful, and now I'm just restoring by giving myself a cognitive message that is more balanced. Yeah, now you could do this with behaviors. Or you restore by shifting to a behavior. Shift to a behavior that brings about a sense of meaning, something that you value, brings about a sense of pleasantness or ease. It's one of my favorite ones. I do this all the time at night Anne Anne knows I do this when, if I'm lost in thoughts, I'm shifting to playing with our dog.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It bothers Ann, actually, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1:

I didn't know that was part of shifting for you. Oh, you didn't know that. No. I just knew that. I just thought you were being nice to the dog.

Speaker 2:

Well, I also be nice to the dog.

Speaker 1:

we, we pay, play, keep away, yeah, with her bone, yeah, but then she gets a little wild and yeah, bothers ann. Well, it doesn't bother me, I just have to say she gets a bit like like play by day and you know I don't want to get too into that because, of our young children. She's excited, she's so happy. I know she likes it now.

Speaker 2:

The last way you can restore, which is going to be the meditation we're about to provide you, is somatically. Yeah. This is one of the most essential things. You are shifting from your mind into your body. We want to teach our brain that we don't need to focus so much on the chatter in our mind, the story in our mind. We can shift to the body.

Speaker 1:

And so that again is spending a little bit of time changing our thoughts, kind of going safety messaging cognitively, but then really spending time in our body instead, because a lot of time when we're trapped in like negative fear spirals and obsessive thinking, we're just so used to being up in our heads.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Now a great line that Deb Dana, a famous polyvagal therapist, talks about is story follows state, yeah, and I think this is really essential. Sometimes it's okay to just focus on changing your thoughts, but story follows state is just the understanding that the state of your nervous system, the state of your body, often is directing the story in your mind. So a great example of this is if you wake up feeling anxious, what's the story going to be in your mind that develops?

Speaker 1:

It's going to be an anxious one yeah.

Speaker 2:

Even if the things in your life are completely safe, it's going to be filled with fear and obsessiveness.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

If you're in complete shutdown in your nervous system, what's the story that's going to follow? It's probably going to be a depressed one, depressed one right Like it's going to be despair, it's going to be hopeless, helpless, yeah, and so the reason we're shifting from mind to body, in my opinion, is that you're going to the source, that might be driving all this.

Speaker 2:

So you're shifting into your body, you're exploring unpleasant sensations, pleasant sensations and neutral sensations and you're teaching yourself that you can create safety in your body and the story in your mind, naturally, will fade off and shift.

Speaker 1:

Well, and for you, tanner, when it comes to pain and symptoms and healing. When you started to do that, what did you notice about the story you would have afterwards with pain and symptoms?

Speaker 2:

Like after I did the skill.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I noticed that it would become less extreme in nature, or I noticed myself just not buying in.

Speaker 1:

Ah, so the story wasn't fear-based anymore. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like it wasn't as fear-based or it was fear-based but it didn't have the same like sting, like I didn't fully buy into what was happening because I understood my body was kind of directing it. Now we are going to provide a free meditation for you now. That comes from our digital course, the somatic safety method. Now, this is a three hour meditation, so it helps you go through the three hours and shift from mind to body. Now we want people to be safe. If the sensations inside of pain, emotions, dysregulation are too intense right now, this is not an ideal time to do this meditation. So you want things to be more mild, to moderate in nature. This meditation I never suggest people do when they're in the middle of a panic attack, because it's just too much. You're better to go use some strategic avoidance. So just make sure, as we dive into this, that you feel like you're in a good place to go through this practice. So let's dive into it.

Speaker 1:

This is a three-hour somatic practice to support you shifting from mind to body. Begin by closing your eyes or lowering your gaze At first, attending to your breath, inhaling through the nose, filling your belly full of warm air and exhaling through your nose softly and slowly. Now we are going to shift to observing your thoughts from a detached, not-judgmental and curious place. Thoughts occur on a stream of consciousness. Thoughts come into consciousness, go by and eventually fade out. Consciousness go by and eventually fade out. Imagine you're sitting on the bank of this stream of consciousness, detaching yourself from the thoughts going by. For a moment, practice observing your thoughts. Do they go by quickly or slowly? Are the thoughts based in fear, frustration or despair? Are the thoughts based in fear, frustration or despair? You Are the thoughts all about the same topic and obsessive in nature. You may even notice that every once in a while, a thought latches onto you and drags you down the stream. If this occurs, practice letting go of the thought gently and return back to observing your thoughts from a detached and curious place. Spend a moment re-examining the thoughts, realizing the thoughts that are occurring may not be true or helpful. Any thoughts that are negative, that are occurring are because your nervous system has been stuck in a state of survival for a prolonged period of time and your brain has been wired over time to think in this way. When you are ready, we are going to practice shifting from mind to body. We are not resisting our thoughts, as this just creates more negative thinking. It is like if I told you don't think of a pink elephant. I know it is the first thought that took place for you just now. Instead, see if you can begin to treat your thoughts like background characters in a movie. Background characters are always there, but unfortunately for them, no one really focuses on them. Slow down your breathing and allow your thoughts to fade to the background. Now scan your body from head to toe and first notice if you feel any sympathetic sensations of fight or flight or any dorsal, vagal sensations of freeze or shutdown. Allow yourself to explore and track any dysregulation you're currently feeling in your body, thank you. Also notice if any emotions are taking place within Practice. Being curious about where you're feeling sensations of emotions in your body, having insight that your negative thinking is occurring based on the state of your nervous system. Thank you. Place your hand or hands right over where you're feeling emotions or dysregulation in your body. Begin to breathe directly into the area With a sense of compassion and care. Allow your breaths and touch to soften and soothe the sensations, without trying to change them. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Continue to explore the sensations occurring in your body and notice where you're feeling pleasant or neutral sensations. Thank you, if you're having troubles finding a pleasant and neutral sensation, practice rubbing your hands together. Attend to the sensations that your touch creates. You Give yourself permission to drop into the sensations With each exhale, allowing yourself to embody these sensations and explore them, restoring safety by exploring and tracking this pleasant or neutral sensation. Let yourself breathe warm air directly into this area and, as you exhale, feeling everything in in your face and jaw. Ah, letting your neck soften and your shoulders drop. Letting your neck soften and hands to relax, relax, let your chest and abdomen be at ease. Let your chest and abdomen be at ease, and loosening your legs. Finally, practice shifting your focus between pleasant and unpleasant sensations in your body, letting yourself have a natural rhythm of focusing back and forth, teaching your nervous system you are safe to be in your body. Take one final moment of being in your body. When you are ready, open your eyes and return to the room.

Speaker 2:

So we hope this practice was helpful. Now me and Ann have two agencies. We have our therapy practice, pain Psychotherapy Canada, where we walk people through education and practices one-on-one. We're able to work with people across Canada. We're able to work with people across Canada. Now our second agency, embody Community, offers a full digital course. It has over 10 hours of education, 60 plus somatic practices, brain retraining techniques and the meditation you just listened to came from the digital course. So if you need support in healing your chronic pain, chronic illness, consider following the links down below in the description of this episode for both of our agencies. So thanks everyone for listening.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2:

And we'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1:

Talk to you next week. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, instagram and.

Speaker 2:

Facebook accounts in the episode description. We wish you all healing.