The Mind-Body Couple

Healing Chronic Pain Is Possible — Here’s How I Did It

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 128

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What if your most stubborn pain isn’t a broken body, but a brilliant brain trying to protect you? We open up about Tanner’s journey from spreading knee, shoulder, and back pain to a full recovery, and how the real turning point came when he reframed pain as a danger signal from the nervous system—not proof of damage. You’ll hear the messy middle too: fear, failed treatments, shrinking routines, and the isolation that follows when life gets small.

We break down the five pillars that changed everything. First, evidence-based education shifted beliefs using the work of Dr. John Sarno and Dr. Howard Schubiner, plus real-world clues like symptom inconsistency and stress-linked flares. Second, brain retraining and graded exposure taught Tanner to approach sensation with safety and rebuild movement without deadlines. Third, daily nervous system regulation—breathwork, mindfulness, qigong, and somatic practices—created a calmer baseline while building capacity to feel emotions in the body without spiralling. Fourth, trauma processing addressed bullying, addiction history, and the trauma of chronic pain itself, using titrated, body-led methods and, when needed, therapeutic support. Finally, social safety sealed the change: fewer toxic ties, less pressure, clearer boundaries, less people-pleasing, and more play.

The result isn’t a life without discomfort; it’s a nervous system that bounces back. Flares show up less often and fade faster because the brain has new proof that movement and emotion are safe. If you’ve been told to just live with it, this conversation offers a different path—rooted in neuroscience, practice, and patience. Subscribe, share with someone who needs hope, and leave a review to help others find these tools. What’s the first safety signal or small exposure you’ll try this week?

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married! In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were occurring due to learned brain pathways and nervous system dysregulation. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make gradual changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, which is an in-depth online course that provides step-by-step guidance for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Also check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Discl...

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to the Mind Body Couple Podcast. I'm Tanner Murtoff and I'm Ann Hampson.

SPEAKER_00:

This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_01:

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapy.ca.

SPEAKER_00:

Or purchase our online course at embodycommunity.com to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools, and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. Hi everyone.

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, everybody. Welcome back. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. Today we're going to talk about how healing chronic pain is possible and how I personally did it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I know we share bits about this in different podcasts, but we wanted one completely devoted to Tanner's story today.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I get a lot of questions of how exactly did you do it? Right. Which makes sense. Makes sense. And in this episode, I'm going to really break it down what I did and essentially what you can start to do to recover.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So we hope this is helpful, maybe even inspiring, maybe just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. Inspiring.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. For some.

SPEAKER_00:

So have you ever been told your chronic pain or illness is something you just have to live with? This is such a common message. I was told that by so many practitioners, and that's a terrifying thing to hear. Yeah, for sure it is. Luckily, I learned the cause of my pain wasn't my body, but instead my brain and nervous system. So if you've been living with neuroplastic pain, fibromyalgia, dizziness, chronic fatigue, in this episode, we'll show you that healing is possible.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So like that message of hope. I do.

SPEAKER_01:

And you know what? I think it is hopeful. And one thing, like, and obviously we're going to start going through your story, but one thing I want to say as Tanner's spouse and partner, that I've been with you every step of the way, and I saw you before pain, during pain, and afterwards. And so I can really vouch that it is possible because I watched this the whole time. And I think that's common of partners or friends or family members having kind of observed this with people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the full beginning, middle, and end of it all. Yeah. We've been together a long time about.

SPEAKER_01:

It's been long. 16 years?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't even know.

SPEAKER_01:

We have trouble counting now. But yeah, it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_00:

We lose track. So how my chronic pain began. I like to talk about it with people that chronic pain or symptoms rarely starts overnight. It it develops over a lifetime. So looking back on my own life, my nervous system had been on high alert years before my chronic symptoms started.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And this is a really interesting point because it can feel like it starts overnight. It can feel like I woke up one day and I had pain, or I had an accident and an injury, and then my pain continued. And so we really want to outline that often this process is going on with nervous system dysregulation long before.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, this dysregulation just increases that danger level in your brain. And that's going to eventually sensitize your system producing pain or symptoms. But again, the sensitization didn't happen overnight. Yeah. So for myself, my danger level was rising for years before my pain started. Personally, I was a very sensitive kid.

SPEAKER_01:

Still a sensitive man.

SPEAKER_00:

Still a sensitive man. We have a very sensitive household. Our kids are sensitive and can be sensitive.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh-huh. Our animals are sensitive. Oh, yes. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

It's sensitive. And you know, at the time I felt kind of confused as a child because it seemed like I was different than other boys my age.

SPEAKER_01:

What felt different for you, Tanner?

SPEAKER_00:

I felt like people had such an ability to just ignore perceived threats or dangers in life and just have a good time. Right. Like I remember being seven or eight years old and watching my friends just truly be in the moment, enjoying themselves, ignoring worries or threats. Even if they were just small ones. They just had such an ability where I felt things so strongly that it felt really overwhelming even earlier in life. Yes. Now, unfortunately for myself, and I know so many people go through this, I was bullied in school. Yeah. Started in elementary school right up to high school. And this started to have me develop chronic anxiety, chronic depression in my teenage years.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I think you're right. A lot of people can relate to that type of experience or experience similar. And so this is the process of looking back in your story and looking for those dysregulated moments or those traumatic moments, maybe.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, it's looking out for these because again, sensitization grows over time. So in my teenage years, I didn't have pain, but things were increasing and increasing in terms of danger.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, how did I cope? Because at the time I had no way in my teenage years or no awareness of how to cope with emotions, anxiety, depression.

SPEAKER_01:

Like most of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like I didn't know how to do it healthily. And so what I did is I started to develop an addiction to drugs and alcohol. I remember the first time I drank alcohol. Was that a sleepover with my friend? But but I remember being like, whoa, I've never felt this happy before.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like it it hit so strongly. Like I remember having that thought. I can't remember how old I was, maybe 14 or 15. But it was such a euphoric moment.

SPEAKER_01:

You know what's funny, Tanner? I also had the same thought.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Powell You had the same thought.

SPEAKER_01:

I had the same thought too, which is funny because we'll mention a bit later where Tanner and I met. So we both relate to having addiction issues as teenagers. But I remember finding something that I needed to cope as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I remember thinking like when I drank alcohol, and I think the first time it really wasn't that much. But when I drank alcohol, all of a sudden I understood why every one of my friends was just having a good time my whole childhood. They weren't drunk, but they were just like in the zone enjoying themselves. And this escalated more and more throughout my teenage years to the point where I had to go through long-term drug treatments when I was 17, 18 years old. Fortunately, I've been sober ever since. But I also developed in my teenage years like an eating disorder. Yeah. And again, it was just a way to control something for myself, feel in control. And it was a way to cope with these big emotions.

SPEAKER_01:

One thing I want to mention here is it's super natural to find some way to try to cope maybe with dysregulation or difficult emotions. And maybe in hindsight, we realized that wasn't the healthiest way or the most appropriate way. But our nervous system, we're looking for something to help feel safe. And sometimes for some people, it it is in addictions or it is in eating, kind of maladaptive eating, um, until we realize, hey, this isn't helpful for us anymore.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And for the people listening, I think you raised a good point that I don't want people blaming themselves for the unhelpful ways that they tried to cope. If you were similar to me, you relate to what I'm talking about, that danger level was just so high that you were desperate. You were desperately trying to feel better. That's what our nervous system wants. It wants to run towards whatever feels pleasant, even if it's not actually good for us.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I relate to that too. Like I mentioned, I had my um similar struggles in some ways growing up too. I experienced bullying as well at some point when I was really young. Um, and like I said, both Tanner and I fell into addiction where we didn't know each other and met later on in life. Um, but same thing, I was looking for something to cope as well. Um, because I didn't know what to do with those emotions and dysregulation either.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. We're lost. And unless we are really taught this as children, yeah. We don't learn it. You know, I've worked with people that are 50, 60 years old. They just never learned it. They never had people in their lives that taught them how to work through emotions or feel emotions and then move through them. And so that's a big part of our approach, is teaching people how to do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and we mentioned this before, but somebody I know that was really special to me always used to say emotions have to go somewhere. And for some people, that might be in overeating or addiction. It goes into chronic pain as well.

SPEAKER_00:

So for myself, as I said, I went through a long-term drug treatment center. Uh, then I got sober, and then I met Anne.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes. We both worked at the long-term drug treatment center that we went through.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we worked there for many years when we were significantly younger than we are now.

SPEAKER_01:

Much younger. Um, and at that time, you weren't experiencing any pain.

SPEAKER_00:

Nope.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, you were in recovery from addiction and doing pretty well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there was a few years after the treatment that I felt really good. I felt like I could better manage my emotions, not perfectly. I was enjoying life. I had this new friend group, I'm dating Ann, which was a pretty good time. And you know, I was I was actually looking back, feel quite nostalgic about that couple of years.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But then university started.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh yes. And it's funny because I remember you before university tenor, and then this is kind of during and then through kind of to graduate school. Um, and I definitely started to see a change in you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there was a shift. I always was perfectionistic or intense in the past. But when university started, it's like achievement. Getting achievement went into overdrive.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And it fell apart from there. There was so much pressure, there was so much self-criticism. Any small failing that I had felt really massive. My emotions, I felt like I couldn't control them anymore, and I became highly anxious as a result.

SPEAKER_01:

And I remember observing that for you, um, noticing that intensity, not really at the time, noticing how dysregulating it was for you, or that it was kind of a difficulty for you, but I could see that, that perfectionism, that intensity, um, that hyperfocus.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And it just became too much for my nervous system to handle. And I'm going to talk about my pain and symptoms, but this was kind of the precursor to my pain and symptoms. Yes. Was, yeah, I remember, I remember it was around like midterm time. And at the time I was also being intense about hobbies. So I started to do a lot of extreme exercise, and everything just started to fall apart from there.

SPEAKER_01:

Why do you think, because you're doing pretty well after you first got sober Tanner, um, and kind of in a really good rhythm, feeling good. Why do you think this shifted for you at this time?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I thought about this a lot, and I felt kind of sheltered from the world. I hadn't like started to fully engage in life to maybe the degree of like going to university. And so all of a sudden, when there was these threats, good threats, but threats of performing and doing well and moving forward in life, everything started to just feel really overwhelming. Like I didn't have the capacity to do that. Another thing that I thought of looking back, which I really think you learned through your recovering addictions, where I didn't sell much, is that I never gained a real ability to feel safe with emotions. And as university started, big emotions happened and I I just had no ability to tolerate them or work them through.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that's an interesting point. And is kind of similar to back when you were really young and being bullied, of like, what do I do with these emotions? Right. And then same thing. These emotions were really intense again. And then again, what do I do?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. The other thing that happened around this time period, which did not help in any way, is I went through a bit of a spiritual crisis. Yeah. Where I had developed some stronger spiritual beliefs going through recovery in addictions. And as that started to fall apart, I felt really disorganized and confused about my worldview. So all these factors unfortunately kind of came together and put my nervous system in just this very heightened state of dysregulation. Now, quick little science break.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, science. Science.

SPEAKER_00:

This is also Ann's favorite topic.

SPEAKER_01:

Is it?

SPEAKER_00:

Science.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it's science. Um You know, when your brain feels in danger, it's gonna try to protect you. And it's gonna try to protect you by generating pain and symptoms. Because my nervous system was dysregulated so often in university, my brain started to generate symptoms. That alarm bell started to go off.

SPEAKER_01:

One thing I want to mention here is when I get super dysregulated, I start feeling pain and symptoms as well. But I've never developed chronic pain. And so what's the difference there? Because it can be a very natural response for to have a physical reaction to like dysregulation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because what we're talking about here is neuroplastic pain or symptoms, in the sense that your body is not damaged or diseased, your brain is just in this heightened state of danger. And you hit on a good point here, Ann, that everyone, doesn't matter who you are, you have had a neuroplastic symptom in your life. That is how we're built as human beings. But for some people, when the neuroplastic symptom starts, they don't get hyperfixated, they don't get fearful about it, or they have an ability to regulate, come out of dysregulation. So it almost never catches.

SPEAKER_01:

So back to your nod about my ability to kind of manage my emotions a little bit differently than you.

SPEAKER_00:

You have an ability to manage your emotions, you have an ability to regulate, uh, which I did not have at the time. Also, you don't get obsessive in maybe the same way I do.

SPEAKER_01:

Not as obsessive as you as you. That's fair to say, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So you can see why some people's neuroplastic symptoms become chronic and some people's fade after a day or two. Yeah. For myself, my pain started with my knee. So I was training for my first triathlon with my friends.

SPEAKER_01:

Which speaks a bit to your intensity. Because I remember you being like, like, I need to do triathlons now. And I was like, what?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Like I don't know what happened. I just got so into the idea. Started watching triathlons on TV.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, nothing against you if you do triathlons, but it was just something Tanner was like decided he was gonna do suddenly.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, which is common for me. So, you know, in a couple weeks, I'm running 50, 60 kilometers a week, really going for it, uh, swimming, doing all that stuff. Knee pain started. I think there might have been like a slight injury because there was some swelling at first. Like I think it was just an overuse injury in hindsight, that probably would have healed within a week or two. But I got locked onto it.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, so what did the lock-on look like for you at that time, Tenner?

SPEAKER_00:

I was worried about it right off the bat. I was like, this is gonna wreck my triathlon goal. I got fearful about it. I was testing it all the time, like bending my leg repetitively. And then I started to try to physically fix it in any way I could.

SPEAKER_01:

This is a really important piece. And so I think many of the people that I've connected with talk about this kind of fear response pretty immediately.

SPEAKER_00:

For a lot of people, you know, unpleasant sensations, they can have such this like fear threat response to it. And it's similar to how I responded to emotions. And so, yeah, I went into fix-it mode. I did physio twice a week, right off the bat. I was going to see chiropractors, I was stretching all the time, and nothing worked. Eventually, after a few months, all of a sudden both knees started to hurt. So now I was having a real hard time walking for longer distances. And then it spread again, and both shoulders started to hurt. And eventually my most debilitating symptoms started, which was really my back and legs.

SPEAKER_01:

And I remember kind of observing this with you, Tanner. I knew you were in pain. I knew that was happening for you. I remember supporting you with trying to figure out that pain. I also, though, which was more noticeable to me, started noticing your mental health declining as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, it really did because my world got smaller and smaller and smaller. I tended to regulate myself purely through exercise. And so as that got taken away, I felt like I had no ability to regulate. So you're right, I think what you noticed more, Ann, was my anxiety was just getting wildly bigger. And then after it was around for a year or so, I started to feel depressed and eventually even had like suicidal thoughts. So things started to escalate in a really major way for me.

SPEAKER_01:

I know for me as his spouse, that was a very confusing time for me. Um, because I didn't, I didn't know what to do. And I saw this kind of decline, um, mainly from me and your mental health. Um, and it was really overwhelming. I didn't know what to do, I didn't know how to help anything, I didn't know how to change anything. And there was a growing distance between us as well.

SPEAKER_00:

There was. I and I think it speaks to, and again, no one's to blame for this. I want to say that right off the bat, but it speaks to how chronic pain and illness can affect our family, our friends around us. Yeah. Um because our relationships started to struggle because I just shut down more and more. My chronic pain was around for about three and a half years, especially in that last year and a half. It became really dark. I was off work at a point because I just didn't have an ability to function anymore. Now, fortunately, I one night, late at night, I think it was about three in the morning, I couldn't sleep because of my pain. It was just too painful that night. So watching some YouTube videos, and I discovered the work of Dr. John Sarno.

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, I I know now how much I owe to Dr. Sarno. I didn't at the time, but yes, this was a big moment.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and he introduced this idea that often chronic pain and symptoms is not due to damage or disease in the body. It's due to our brain and nervous system being in a heightened state of danger. Now, he often referred to this as tension, myoneural syndrome, TMS. We now use a more updated term called neuroplastic pain or symptoms. And again, the pain and symptoms are generated by a sensitized brain and nervous system, not by damage in the body. Now, at first, when I heard this idea, I watched some videos, I thought it was total crap.

SPEAKER_01:

Which is a common first response.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I was like, this is ridiculous. I don't know how much time went by. It was maybe a month or two. Um and I knew in the back of my mind I was like, okay, nothing physical has helped, but I just wasn't open enough yet to start doing it.

SPEAKER_01:

What was that like? Because I think many people can relate to being in that type of place, Tanner.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it was it was difficult because I was in such an irritable, frustrated state a lot of the time. And I had this lens when I met with medical practitioners that they kind of didn't believe me. They didn't believe how much pain I was in. I felt quite stigmatized. And so this idea of like, hey, your body's not damaged, it felt like that. It isn't that because neuroplastic pain symptoms are very real. They're just as painful. It's just they're not occurring in the body. It's a brain and nervous system issue. But you get the idea. Like, I felt like Dr. Sharner was saying, hey, your pain's not real.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

So I was quite angry about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, which makes sense. Like we want to validate our experience, and that can feel invalidating at first.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But I knew in the back of my mind, I was like, this makes a lot of sense. I had lightly connected, okay, when my mental health got worse, my pain got worse. So I I was training to be a therapist, so I knew of these ideas, and I knew there was some relationship there. I just didn't realize that dysregulation was the full driver. Now eventually, I bought Dr. Sarno's book, I bought Dr. Schubiner's book, and I came to this place of deciding to jump into this approach.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I remember this time you started telling me a little bit about it. Like it's this time there wasn't like there was the books, there wasn't a lot of stuff online, but you're reading some, you would show me maybe some stories of other people using this approach, kind of like on a chat forum. Um and I remember being hopeful. I was glad, like you seemed a bit excited, but I was very wary of getting hopeful about myself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because I think we were both in such a dark place that I wasn't fully hopeful at first either. It seemed too good to be true. So in this next section of the podcast, we wanted to talk about the five steps I used to heal my chronic pain. So I want to be so clear with people that healing for me was not a quick fix. The process so long ago now, it's about a decade ago. But the process was probably about eight or nine months from me going to having debilitating chronic symptoms to no longer having chronic pain.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So it takes time, it takes effort. This isn't a magic bullet that's gonna solve everything.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So here's the five areas I focused on to heal. Number one, changing thoughts and beliefs. I had to completely reframe what pain meant. And I did this through accurate pain education by reading Dr. Sarno's and Dr. Schubner's book. I learned about neuroplastic pain and symptoms, that they're actually very real. And at the time, this was a relatively new emerging area of science and neuroscience, but it was definitely not pseudoscience. There was evidence to support that a lot of chronic pain and symptoms are neuroplastic. The research that's been done in the last decade has even further given evidence to this.

SPEAKER_01:

And this is a big piece. We start off with this with a lot of our clients. Often people come to us, or probably you guys too come to this podcast, are already starting to shift that belief, but it's so important.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it takes time. You have to consume a lot of education because you're rewiring your belief system around your pain. That takes time. That's why we have so many podcast episodes, so people can really soak all this in. Now, I also need to start to understand and accept that my symptoms are neuroplastic. So, what we do here is we look for clues. What are the clues that our symptoms are actually neuroplastic in nature? Because we need credible evidence that this makes sense.

SPEAKER_01:

And one clue that you highlighted was your kind of when your mental health was struggling, your symptoms were higher. That was something you were noticing.

SPEAKER_00:

There were so many pieces of evidence. My symptom presentation didn't make sense. They were inconsistent. There were so many symptoms. They would move around and spread randomly. Um, you know, sometimes walking would trigger my back and hip pain to an eight out of 10 intensity. Other times it'd be a two or almost not there. So just the way my symptoms were behaving, they weren't behaving as if something was physically triggering them. But then there was also all these emotional factors, like I had faced trauma earlier in life. Um, I had all these unhelpful coping mechanisms like perfectionism and people pleasing. I had this mental health, like high anxiety that all of a sudden would trigger pain flares. Now, me and Ann took the guesswork out of this for you. We created two episodes. So if you go back on our podcast, episode 101 and 102, we lay it all out on how you can start to self-assess if your pain or symptom might be neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, Tanner kind of says it pretty easily, but it's really common to kind of see evidence and then go into the, well, yeah, but um and so this can be more difficult than it sounds.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's more difficult. You're not gonna believe it 100% at first. I don't think I fully believed my pain was neuroplastic until it was like 80% gone.

SPEAKER_01:

So were you able to still see gains without full belief?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was open enough. I really had no other option at that point. Um, and there was enough evidence for it to make sense. But don't try to force this 100% belief, it can take some time. Number two, brain retraining and graded exposure.

SPEAKER_01:

And one thing that's interesting about this point is we've talked a lot about this, and there's like a lot of like you know, methods to do this. But when you stumbled across this tenor, you didn't have that at the time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, a lot of the approach we use now comes from my personal experience and what I did, but also what I've seen work well with clients over time. But I started to practice exposure to approaching with safety the sensations of pain inside. So I really started to do this. Um, because I would try to distract myself or check out anytime my pain would come on. And there was such a threat, dysregulated response to it. And I understood through some of the mind-body literature that my response to the pain was escalating it. So I would practice, and you probably remember this, but I would lie in bed for long periods of time doing brain retraining, learning to approach, keep my breathing slow, give myself some safe self talk, remind myself of my clues that my symptoms are neuroplastic. So I was doing all of this to create safety with the pain and symptoms. And that was vital because it made them less and less threatening over time.

SPEAKER_01:

Even when your pain maybe was moderate during these times. What told you to keep doing this? Because I think sometimes people can start doing that, and either the pain's not going away quick enough or it feels too difficult.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's a it's a great point. I think some people get really caught up because they set a healing deadline. Even when I say it took me eight or nine months, don't just assume it's going to take you eight or nine months. Okay. It could be way quicker for you. It could be way slower. Everyone's nervous system is different. But one of the brilliant things I did, and I did it by mistake, but it was it was so helpful, is I never set a healing deadline.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I never thought, oh, it's it needs to take two months or I've failed. It needs to take three months or I've failed.

SPEAKER_01:

Did you also kind of be really loose around your expectations of what you're hoping to see maybe day to day?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like it I didn't track it really intensely. I tracked it more with like a bird's eye view of like, okay, I've been doing this a month. What healing wins have I experienced? Do I feel less scared of my pain? Can I do a little bit more activity? Can I approach emotions a bit more? Like I wasn't just tracking the pain, but I was looking for like, what are all the signs am I moving in the right direction?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, and that's an important piece because I think when we hold on too tightly to what we believe should happen and maybe when, is when things get really dicey, and then we stop believing in the approach completely.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Now, the other part of this section is graded exposure. Oh, people hate this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I was, I think out of anything, this was the most terrifying.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Because as I said, by the end of my pain, I was immobilized. I would lie in bed or I would lie in front of the TV while Anne was sitting on the couch because I was terrified to even sit on couches.

SPEAKER_01:

I remember that.

SPEAKER_00:

I wouldn't walk, I would barely move my arms. And I knew that all this avoidance was keeping me in danger mode. And so to heal, I had to slowly and gradually start to move. I started with walking. For example, I'd walk back and forth in our apartment for three to five minutes while doing somatic work, tracking the pain, creating safety. Eventually I could walk 10 minutes, 20 minutes. Like it expanded, but you don't want to wait too long to start the graded exposure. I know it's scary, but it's really a big piece because if you keep your world small, you keep avoiding, it's really hard to heal.

SPEAKER_01:

One time that was interesting, and we've talked about this before on the podcast, I think, was when we were in Invermir. And you had the suggestion maybe of going, I was like, roller skating. Yeah, it was roller skating. Um which we don't really do, but you were wanting to go, and I was kind of surprised by this, but I was like, okay. Um, but this was a time where it showed me that you were trying to open your world a little bit and approach activity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, this is a great moment because I was reading um Dr. Howard Schubner's book at the time, and he really emphasized, like, hey, fear's driving it. You gotta overcome the fear. So I got all pumped up. I was like, we're doing this and and uh we're we're in Invermer, which is a really small little town, but they have like a gym, but they had a roller skate. Yeah. And so we started driving there, and I could feel my back pain just. We hadn't even done anything yet. It went from like the drive was not that long. It's like five minutes. It went from like a two to like a nine. Like it was like, whoa.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great example, though, of like just an anxiety and anticipation of the activity, your pain coming on.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So those moments told me that, hey, my body's actually okay. Because if your symptoms are neuroplastic, it is not the movement, the activities, the positions that's driving it. It's just that you've been dysregulated and your brain's misinterpreted, hey, all these things are dangerous.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I don't think we actually went roller bleeding or roller skating.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but I didn't bail. I want kind of we went and then it was closed.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But one thing that was interesting is we didn't do the activity, but and maybe you didn't know this language at the time, but it's important to honor the try.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It was it was vital. Like it was a a great first step that I was starting to move towards. Number three, nervous system regulation. Yes. As we've talked about, I was dysregulated for many years, often without acknowledging it or even realizing how dysregulated I was. And my symptoms meant I had to deal with this. I had to start dealing with nervous system dysregulation and difficult emotions.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, one thing I want to say, not everyone that struggles with a lot of dysregulation or trauma or stressors when they're young developed pain and symptoms. And so for myself, I had a lot of dysregulation as well. And we talked a little bit about my story, but I didn't develop chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_00:

No. And everyone's nervous system is different, right? Unfortunately, my nervous system and probably the listeners' nervous systems listening, you know, our nervous system decided that when the danger level gets high enough, pain and symptoms get triggered. And I understand this connection. I really started to understand that as I was doing the healing work, that as I started to feel anxious or angry or shut down, that my symptoms would increase. So I had to start to somatically work with it. So I did two things. They kind of go hand in hand, but two things that were really helpful. Part of it is I started to practice daily safety signals. We've talked about safety signals on this before. This these are internal, external things that create a sense of safety. Now I never did this before, but all of a sudden I was doing breath work, mindfulness, qi gong, somatic movements, and other grounding practices. I would start my day off with that, with a 15, 20 minute practice. And it was really helpful because it wasn't an instant shift, but it gave me more access to a state of safety in my nervous system. But that's not gonna be enough. If you just do safety signals to regulate your nervous system, over time that will just become sheer avoidance. You also need to learn to somatically work with difficult emotions or dysregulation. We talk about these as embodiment practices on this podcast where you need to go towards how does anxiety feel in my body? Drop in, describe it, deepen your connection with it, sit with it for a bit, be curious, be open, what happens, and use safety signals as you do this to change your relationship with it.

SPEAKER_01:

And so that's also very much the idea of using safety signals or moving towards that exposure to the pain sensations as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. It's the same idea. You're doing it with pain and symptoms. You also need to do this with dysregulation and emotions. Yes. I think this is a really vital step for most people. Um, and even to this day, 10 years later, I'm still doing this each and every day. Number four, processing trauma. Personally, I couldn't fully heal until I addressed stores trauma in my body.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, that's not the case for everybody. So if you're someone that's experiencing this trauma, we don't want you to run and think, I must process this or else I won't get better. Everyone's a bit different.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a good point because I've seen that happen with people where they start to dig for traumas because they think there's one big traumatic thing that they just can't put their finger on. And once they discover it, they'll get better. This is just part of the process. A lot of people with chronic pain and symptoms have faced childhood adversity or traumatic events. And we know the research on this. There's the one study that I often cite. If you've had one traumatic event or adverse event in your life, you're about 2.7 times more likely to develop chronic pain, chronic fatigue, or other chronic symptoms. So there is a huge connection here that we cannot avoid. Yeah. Personally, I had trauma from being bullied growing up. There was some trauma from when I was addicted to drugs and alcohol. And there was also what we call at our clinic sensitization trauma. This is the trauma from the onset or progression of chronic pain and symptoms themselves.

SPEAKER_01:

And we have a lot of information around this, lots of different podcast episodes where we talk about it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we recently did one. I think it was, I can't remember if it was the last one or the one before. But we recently did a whole episode on sensitization trauma. If if your pain and symptoms have shrunk your life, has taken away your purpose, taken away things you love, it's normal to have a trauma response to that. And so, similar to how we talked about processing nervous system dysregulation emotions, now I did it with trauma. So I would activate the traumatic memory on my own. I would journal about it for a bit, or I would visualize the memory, and then I would do the somatic work with the dysregulation that took place.

SPEAKER_01:

Now everyone can't do that as you describe on their own.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And I think you need it's important to note that Tanner was training and working as a therapist at that time. So he was able to kind of do that process.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a really important piece. I was training to be a therapist, so I had a lot of information on this. Um and at points I also worked with a therapist to support me, which was really helpful. So, you know, our clinic pain psychotherapy Canada has a team of therapists that specialize in treating trauma.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. And we also have our course.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, digital course. In the digital course, we really outline a whole trauma process that people can start to use on their own if they want to approach it on their own at a self-pace. But if you've been doing healing work for a while, you're not getting much traction, it might be considering starting to process trauma. Number five, the last one is building social safety. Ooh, this is a big challenge for me. I'm really good. Well, I'm really good at lots of things, but unfortunately, I'm really good at one thing. Making my life so serious.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, and making Anne's life so serious.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, no fun. No fun.

SPEAKER_00:

Just I'm better now. But I, you know, I unfortunately over the years sucked the fun away from Anne many times. Again, no one's to blame for this. But for myself, I had learned to cope in the world, to create safety by people pleasing, people pleasing everyone, having no boundaries, not expressing myself, being excessively controlling, being perfectionistic, and being high achieving. All these ways of coping were creating social danger that were part of the reason my pain and symptoms developed in the first place. And so these patterns, they just keep your nervous system on high alert. So I had to change how I was living life.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think this is a hard piece for people. Sometimes it's, I want to say, a last piece. But making the changes to how we're living life, that's like a big order to ask.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Powell It's a big order, and it took me time. This is the thing that I still need to work on consistently. But if you're using all the strategies that we've explained in points one to four, but you're not creating social safety, it's almost like you're just applying band-aids. You're applying band-aids to a life that naturally is creating a sense of danger.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Powell Well, and taking a look then of like, okay, what is it in maybe my relationship to life that I need to change? So you're talking about people pleasing and behaviors. And sometimes what is it in my external life that also needs to look differently?

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. Like people, places, work, school, community, like, are there changes that need to happen? And that's so scary to start considering. There were friends that I cut out of my life when I was in this healing process. I do not regret those choices. They were very toxic people. And it helped create safety long-term for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Now I remember watching this, and I, as your spouse, it was amazing to see you starting to make these shifts, but it also was challenging for me. Like I knew you a certain way. Um, and so that made a bit of shifting in terms of our relationship as well.

SPEAKER_00:

It did. Like me and Ann needed to learn to function differently in our relationship.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

We did. And that wasn't easy stuff at first. Uh, it still isn't easy sometimes. Sometimes Anne's grumpy.

SPEAKER_01:

Usually because of Tanner.

SPEAKER_00:

Usually because of me.

SPEAKER_01:

But one thing that was helpful, actually, and I know like we're both therapists and we work in this field, so I know we have that behind us a little bit. But Tanner talking to me about what he's doing, kind of teaching me myself, getting some knowledge, made kind of working with him on this as a working on it together more helpful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. It really was. And so, like we've said, just start to consider social safety, how you can start to cultivate this. So at the end here, we want to talk about the transformation. It does not happen overnight. It takes time, patience, and consistency. But as I did this over several months, my pain began to fade, and I got my life back, which is so amazing and such a magical moment. I talk about this with clients. It's it's a magical moment, unlike anything else, when we can start to achieve that or see that take place. But every once in a while, ooh, every once in a while, Ann, I'm starting to run my nervous system a little too hard. A little too much stress, pushing in life. Maybe the perfectionism starts to fade in again, and I'll get a little burst of pain. Right. Yeah. That happens less and less over the years, because I've just learned to fine-tune things. But that's normal. I always tell people we're trying to eliminate the chronic part of your pain and symptoms. It's not possible that you're never going to have pain or fatigue, for example, the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_01:

I really like that. Um, and I'm going to start using that with people actually, because that makes a lot of sense. That it's like, okay, we don't want it to be chronic anymore, but our nervous system sometimes is still going to do this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So a few times a year, I would say, it comes up. But over time, I've gotten so good at responding. I can give myself some safe self-talk. I can regulate, I can pull back all these unhelpful coping mechanisms. And often the pain that I have now, it's like a day, maybe two.

SPEAKER_01:

And that learning actually has come through pain flares. So if you're someone that gets pain flares and you're so frustrated that they're there, we need exposure actually to the flare. So you can keep fine-tuning it if it does happen again and hopefully it becomes less and less.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because like if you spam back when I first healed where the chronic part really went away, I couldn't say I had chronic symptoms. Month or two went by, I can't remember exactly. Had a huge flare. Right. The back flare lasted three weeks.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I got there again, but it's a training ground. I learned through these flares. And as a result, now, yeah, day two, sometimes even a few hours, because I've just gotten so automatic in how I respond.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And while I would have hated the question of what is the pain teaching you when I was going through it, now I'm happily looking for this when my pain flares come up. Because it's taught me a lot. It's taught me how to live in a more safe, calm, connected state and with so much less fear. And that's it. Is your nervous system, your brain, it's not the enemy. Pain and symptoms are a protective mechanism. And we have to ask ourselves, what is our pain or symptoms trying to teach you? What is it trying to protect you against?

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, you know, and I started this saying, like I've seen tenor through this whole journey. I remember, so before we started this clinic, kind of when you started to get changes and relief from your pain, I don't know if you remember this conversation, Tenor, but we were talking, we were in our car, maybe drinking coffees, because that's what we did from Jim Hortons. And you were saying that you wanted to help people with this. But you didn't know what to do and you didn't know where to start. Um and I remember that being so powerful because I was like, yeah, like you need to. Look what you've done. Um and that's taken us to here.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah, it's been such a wonderful decade. And even though it's been wonderful, and you know, we've we've got to this place of being able to help so many people with neuroplastic pain and symptoms, hasn't been without challenges. No. You know, healing, it's not always gonna feel magical. There's gonna be hard points, but you can get to this place of living more fully, getting things in your life that are valuable, meaningful, purposeful for you, and work towards your dreams and aspirations. That is a possibility doing this healing work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So our biggest takeaway is that healing is absolutely possible.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. If you're listening and wondering if it can work for you, just please know we've worked with so many people and seen that this is possible. And again, your body, it's not broken, it's just trying to protect you. These symptoms are the language of the nervous system, and it's your nervous system desperately asking for help. And by doing this stuff, by focusing on this, we can start to listen and respond. So thank you everyone for listening.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_00:

And we'll talk to you all soon.

SPEAKER_01:

Talk to you next time. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

SPEAKER_00:

We wish you all healing.