The Mind-Body Couple

Polyvagal Theory for Chronic Pain & Symptoms

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 131

Share episode

We unpack polyvagal theory, starting with neuroception, the body’s below-conscious radar that constantly scans for danger or safety. When that radar gets oversensitive after stress, adversity, or trauma, it misreads harmless cues as threats. The result is chronic dysregulation that fuels neuroplastic pain, fatigue, gut issues, and anxiety—even when your logical mind says, “I’m fine.”

We walk through the four core states—ventral vagal (safe and social), sympathetic (fight or flight), fawn (people-pleasing and perfectionism), and dorsal vagal (freeze and shutdown)—and connect each to common symptoms and relationship patterns. Instead of chasing a fantasy of being calm 24/7, we focus on flexibility: noticing your current state, understanding what it’s trying to protect, and building the capacity to move through it. 

Planning for the holidays? We share a simple, compassionate game plan: map likely triggers, pre-load regulation breaks, recruit a “safe person,” and choose exits without guilt. Every small rep of shifting from alarm to safety teaches your body a new pattern, and over time, pain often eases as sleep, energy, and joy return. If you’re ready for deeper guidance, our therapy team works across most Canadian provinces and our Somatic Safety Method course is available worldwide with education, practices, and live Q&A. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and tell us: which state feels like your home base—and what helps you find your way back to safety?

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married! In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were occurring due to learned brain pathways and nervous system dysregulation. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make gradual changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, which is an in-depth online course that provides step-by-step guidance for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Also check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Discl...

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to the Mind Body Couple podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Tanner Murtaugh.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm Ann Hampson.

SPEAKER_00:

This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_02:

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapy.ca.

SPEAKER_00:

Or purchase our online course at embodycommunity.com to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools, and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. Hi everyone.

SPEAKER_02:

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

We're moving into holiday season.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yes. It's always an overwhelming season, I think, for most of us.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's pleasant and unpleasant.

SPEAKER_02:

Pleasant and unpleasant. Yep. So we're trying to prepare ourselves for it right now.

SPEAKER_00:

We are. So today we're going to talk about polyvagal theory for chronic pain and symptoms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And we think this is a great time as we move into kind of maybe holiday seasons for some of us to really talk about polyvagal theory in the nervous system right now.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yes. So many people come to us asking, why are my pain and symptoms flaring up? Right. Now I would say before people ever come to see us, Anne, as therapists that treat chronic pain, chronic illness, the first stage that they're in is trying to heal their physical symptoms by diagnosing and fixing the body.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Which makes sense. And we've talked about that so much on different podcasts of why that's our first step.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And it's an important first step. It's vital. So when the physical approach starts to not work for people, they start to search out for new solutions. They start to look to emerging research and practices. And this is often in the realm of neuroplastic pain and symptoms, which is probably why you're listening to this podcast. Totally. And we're happy that you're here and you've found us. We are happy about that. And, you know, as many people have learned, as they start to get the landscape of the mind-body world, they understand that assessing their symptoms and recognizing them as a brain-based issue and not a body-based issue is a really essential step in healing. But I like to tell people that just thinking differently about your pain and symptoms is not going to be enough.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And you know, I'm all for changing our thinking and our beliefs and our view. That is a crucial part. But we want to talk about the nervous system today and why that needs to be a focus.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And, you know, our clinic and our digital course, when we're working with people, we've really come to realize over the years that healing happens best when you build this deeper relationship with your nervous system.

SPEAKER_02:

That's like a strong statement. A deeper relationship with your nervous system. Because I think this can be a new concept for a lot of listeners, Tanner.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Some people might be like, you're saying the word nervous system, and I have no idea what you were talking about.

SPEAKER_02:

Which is understandable.

SPEAKER_00:

We are going to explain it this uh podcast episode. But it's really vital to understand if you have chronic neuroplastic pain and symptoms, what it means is your nervous system has been trying to protect you. I like to tell people, in fact, it's been over-protective. Right. And so today we are going to walk you through a nervous system 101 class.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I love talking about the nervous system. And so tired of me talking about the nervous system.

SPEAKER_02:

I like talking about it too, but you kind of go, you go deep in there, Tanner.

SPEAKER_00:

Really just yeah, I've I've gone a little too much. I have a document on my computer with just like hundreds of references. Like hundreds upon hundreds of papers that I have read.

SPEAKER_02:

Which is good. So I guess we want to really um let you know that this is really there's a lot of science to this and a lot of research to this too.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And you're gonna learn why the nervous system gets dysregulated and then how we can begin to shift it towards safety and healing. And if you've ever felt confused or frustrated about your chronic symptom flare-ups, which I know I did, this episode is really gonna lay out things around the nervous system and make it very clear to you.

SPEAKER_02:

So we're gonna start with section one. Your nervous system shapes your pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So one thing that I like to talk about right off the bat with the nervous system and nervous system regulation is what we actually mean by that. Because there is a lot of misconception around this. So a healthy nervous system that is regulated is not going to be calm all the time. Right. We have an obsession in our culture of becoming calm and staying calm.

SPEAKER_02:

And I get it. That's a nice place to be. I like to become calm and stay calm. It can be, you know what? It can be an aim for nervous system regulation to get to that state sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And hang out there more often.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep, that's okay.

SPEAKER_00:

But I like to set expectations that you could listen to this podcast episode 300 more times and you could go to therapy for the next 50 years, and you could take every digital course out there, which there's probably thousands of them on the nervous system, you will not be calm all the time.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

We're not meant to be. We're not meant to be as human beings. When I say a healthy nervous system, what I mean is it's flexible. You're able to move in and out of different states depending on what the moment requires.

SPEAKER_02:

So is it fair to say that dysregulation isn't a bad thing? It's a part of kind of how we operate.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, I'll add a point to that. Short-term dysregulation. That's normal, no matter how many therapy sessions you do with the most epic therapist you have, which I hope you all have an epic therapist.

SPEAKER_02:

If not, we have a clinic following.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't put it in there.

SPEAKER_01:

But I'm the most epic if you have to like choose. Chat GBT told us, which we did an earlier episode. Anyways, go on.

SPEAKER_00:

So like we're going for flexibility. That's really understandable here because like short-term dysregulation is often very helpful and it's very appropriate. Right. It's chronic nervous system dysregulation. And what we mean by this is when you get stuck for long periods of time in states of fight, flight, fawn, or freeze and shutdown, that's where what's going to happen over time is your nervous system is going to become sensitized and get easily alarmed all the time. And the brain may begin generating pain, fatigue, and symptoms, even when there's no physical damage or disease presence. And this really is the foundation of how neuroplastic pain and illness develops and worsens over time for people. So we're going to talk about a concept, a really jargony concept, but an important one to understand neuroception. All right. They talk about this a lot in polyvagal theory. Neurosception is how your nervous system scans our body and our world all the time for signals of safety or danger. So even right now, as everyone's listening to this episode, your subconscious neurosception is scanning. It's listening to all the different signals outside your body and inside your body. So for example, right now your nervous system may be choosing to ignore lots of signals, like certain sounds, sights, smells, temperature, touch. It's just not finding these things very important, very remarkable. So it's just not making you aware of them. If something is dangerous, though, or important, your neuroception's gonna pick it up and become aware of it right away. And then your thinking mind, which occurs second, starts to create meaning and story, making sense of like our subconscious experience of neuroception. So neurosception comes first, perception, your thinking mind comes second. When I first read this, I think it really clicked for me.

SPEAKER_02:

What clicked? What was so crucial about this for you, Tanner?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think many people, myself included, when we've been caught in chronic dysregulation, we can be confused about why that's happening because logically we can think, I'm actually safe right now. Let's say it's Sunday, you got not much to do in the day, you get to hang out all day and relax, and yet you feel this intense fight or flight feeling. And so what we're confused about is like, okay, well, my thinking mind is telling me like everything's alright. But in my nervous system, I'm just jacked up. I'm really revved up. So you can think about this like a three-step process of how neuroception takes place. Number one, sensory signals occur. So this is from your body, it's from your external world, and it's from your social relationships. Second, neuroception assesses. So it's assessing again, is something safe? Is something dangerous? And your brain's assessing inputs using pre-existing information like memories, context, beliefs, and nervous system state. So it's trying to make its best assessment really fast, but it's not just assessing things based on the present moment. With light speed, your brain will measure the incoming signals while also referencing the pre-existing information. Like what do we remember about sounds like this? Have I been in danger in the past when sounds like this have occurred? Where am I right now? Do I believe this is a good or bad thing? And so, really quick, it's making this assessment, often without our conscious awareness. Third, perception occurs. We gain this awareness of our experience and feel physical sensations. So your thinking and meaning making of what we feel starts to take place. So now we're going to talk about whether neurosception is accurate or inaccurate. Because here's the thing a lot of times neuroception is not actually functioning accurately. So you can think about neurosception like an antenna. Our producer Alex talks about this a lot. It's scanning, right? Like it's scanning internally and externally, and it's scanning for signals of safety or danger via your senses. Now, when neuroception is accurate, it's a beautiful thing because you're going to accurately assess if things are safe or dangerous internally or externally. And then your nervous system is gonna react with the appropriate response. I have an example for you here, Ann. So I was walking our dog, I think it was last week, and I had to cross like this bigger road in our neighborhood. And so I'm about to step off the curb and I hear a car honk. And instantly what happened was I got a burst of fight or flight because the honk felt very loud. That's accurate neurosception, right? Like I'm gonna go. It's warning me accurately, like, hey, that honk sounded very loud. So I should get fight or flight because I quickly step back onto the sidewalk. Whereas if let's say that honk was in the far distance, like I barely heard it, I'm gonna barely notice it and feel quite safe, and I'll probably still cross the road without any fight or flight energy. So this is how neuroception can function really accurately.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and what happened to you when you kind of got heightened and got dysregulated a bit or kind of changed states, but then you realized you were safe. What happened after?

SPEAKER_00:

So as soon as I looked back and saw the car, like at a safe distance, I felt safe, took a deep breath, fight or flight almost vanished immediately, and then I crossed the road normally.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's the flexibility and the regulation that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's the flexibility. But here's the problem is like if people have faced trauma, childhood adversity, uh, prolonged distress, mental health concerns, or even chronic pain and symptoms, what'll happen to people is their neurosception starts to become inaccurate. It starts to become oversensitive. And this means that all of a sudden your nervous system is inaccurately triggering states of fight, flight, fall, and freeze, or shutdown because it's misreading safety signals and overreacting to danger signals.

SPEAKER_02:

So everything becomes dangerous. Everything becomes maybe like a loud honk and heightens.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because if you've faced great danger in the past and you haven't learned to work through that and, for example, process trauma and therapy, your neuroception is gonna stay inaccurate. And it's not by mistake. Like your nervous system is trying to protect you based on past danger. So if you face great danger, now it never feels safe. And so it's always picking up these danger signals, even though they're not here. Right. And that can be really problematic because then people are just chronically dysregulated.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and I think that goes back to that kind of cognitive piece of like, wait, I know I'm safe, but this why is my body always reacting this way? And there can be a lot of confusion, and I hear that a lot.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Now, I tell this funny story to clients usually because we're talking about your neurosception being inaccurate and picking up way too much danger. It sounds nice, but there are people in the world where their neurosception is off the other direction.

SPEAKER_02:

Ah, like everything is safe. Everything's all right. There's people walking around.

SPEAKER_00:

It does sound nice, right? There's people walking around that feel way safer than they probably should. And I have a great example when I was younger, well over 15 years ago, Ann used to come to my shows. I I played in a punk hardcore band for many years.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And our first drummer, he was a great time to hang out with. Yeah. I mean, he was laid back, he was like always singing, he was just happy all the time, he was joyful. It was great to be around him. And I've learned in hindsight, like his neuroception was off. Because even if he faced challenges in his life that really needed action, he would not take action.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, so he wasn't being kind of notified of alarm.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And so a great example of this is like multiple times over the years he was in the band, his car would run out of gas coming to band practice. Like he had no inkling to take action. So although it seems nice, it can get you into troubles, you know, if you get too far in that way.

SPEAKER_02:

Aaron Powell And so we want that we want that kind of accurate detection and that dysregulation a little bit or that alarm. It's not bad. Again, we want flexibility and have that understanding relationship with it.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Powell Exactly. Because as you become more regulated, your neurosception is going to become more accurate, which is going to fuel even more regulation.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I have to mention horses here at Tanner.

SPEAKER_00:

All right.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I like thinking about horses when I think about neuroception, because that's how they operate. They don't really have this thinking brain. Um, they're always scanning their environment for danger or safety. And that is through the way you described in terms of neuroception. And they'll go into alarm and then they'll kind of go back into regulation and they'll have that flexibility that they move through as well.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And when I think about that flexible state, I want to be like a horse that's alarmed and that's okay. And then that's back to safety. And both states we become safe and familiar with.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, that's the idea. Because someone that has very accurate neurosception, they're not going to like being in fight or flight, but they're not going to view it as incredibly dangerous. Yes. Because in their experience, they've been able to flexibly go in and out of regulation. So they've been able to go into fight or fight, do what they need to do, face the challenge, come back out with ease. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's kind of the goal that we want to get to, of like, we don't want to completely not have that fight or flight or that kind of dysregulated moment. We want to be able to embrace that and then move out of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Because when the nervous system is sensitized and your neurosception is inaccurately assessing safety or danger signals, your brain is much more likely to generate protective responses. And this means it may overreact to signals from outside your body or signals inside your body. And this is going to lead to the development of neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So let's talk about how that happens then.

SPEAKER_00:

And so at some point, pain or physical symptoms can develop because these are protective responses. Your brain's trying to alert you, hey, something's really off here. But it's not happening by accident. Like your nervous system is letting you know, like, hey, something's really going wrong in your system right now.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So is it fair to assume that neurosception, if we've been struggling with chronic pain and symptoms for a long time, is likely off of it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Without a doubt, like if you're self-assessing and you've come to realize, okay, I have neuroplastic pain and symptoms, your neurosception is off. You will really benefit from starting to develop this deeper relationship with your nervous system. Safety starts in the body. So we need to regulate the nervous system to improve our mental health, heal trauma, and reduce neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so learning to work with dysregulation, understand your own unique nervous system, and learn what you need to make it flexible is what's going to help you heal long term.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Okay. So it's important to remember doing this type of work is impactful for pain and symptoms. Because sometimes I think when I'm talking to people, there can be a little bit of maybe fear of focusing on nervous system regulation and that kind of work. Of like, wait a minute, how will this target pain and symptoms in the long run?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Very much caused by our very medicalized society. Pain and symptoms are a body issue and mental health is like a brain and nervous system issue. Uh separate. Right? Like people think about it this way. And it's like, no, we don't function like that as human beings. Brain, nervous system, and body are all very interconnected. And as we know about most chronic pain and symptoms, that they are in fact neuroplastic, which means you do need to develop that deeper relationship with your nervous system and learn when it needs to feel safe. So now what I want to do is discuss the different states of the nervous system and really how they correlate to pain or symptoms. And I want the listeners as we go through these to consider what states are you spending the most time in? Because, and you may not know, but it's a starting place of understanding, okay, where's my home base? Because most of us have a home base, whether we like that to be our home base or not. And so understanding where you're spending a lot of time is gonna help reflect, okay, what healing work do I need to do? So the first state, the wonderful state. Safe and regulated. Or a ventral vagal.

SPEAKER_02:

I feel like many of us probably won't say that's the home base.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe it's our hope, like we mentioned earlier.

SPEAKER_00:

I think you spend a lot of time here though, Ann. You do spend a fair amount of time.

SPEAKER_02:

I try. Actually, and I want to say since I've started like focusing on more nervous system work and nervous system regulation and kind of like dropping into my body more, I do feel like I can get to a more safe and regulated ventral vagal state more often. So I definitely want to vouch that this type of work has allowed me to get there more.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Noah, and I agree. Same with myself compared to over a decade ago when I had pain and symptoms, my ability to access a safe and regulated state has just increased over time.

SPEAKER_02:

And so when we think about a ventral vagal state, we might feel present or calm. Heart rate would be regulated.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh peaceful, joyful, playful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I would say it can often be like this kind of playful, creative, productive state. And I think a key point here is, again, it's not just calm and deep breathing. There's also other joyful states like playing with your dog and joking around that can happen. I will say that generally, as people are here longer, you're gonna get more quality sleep. You're gonna get improved health for sure. Uh, an increased sense of well-being takes over for people. And you're gonna get reductions or dissipation of neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. So this is often why getting to this state more is a goal when we're struggling with chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, absolutely. Again, you're not gonna be here all the time, but we want you to be more flexible in getting here and being able to hang out here longer. Next, we have fight or flight. The sympathetic state. Sympathetic, this was definitely my home base when I was in pain and symptoms. If I get lax of my regulation work, this will become my home base very easily. And so here, your nervous system, what it's essentially doing is it's becoming mobilized. You're getting more energy, fight or flight, which is often like angry or fearful. Your breathing is going to become really shallow and short. That's like my first signal that I'm going here. And you get that rapid heart rate that takes place for people. And what'll happen in fight or flight is your nervous system just looking for signals of danger and it can become hyper-vigilant. So there's this like sensitivity that takes over. Um, for some people, they start to fixate or obsess, which is something that I do quite a bit. Yes, yes. And here, like people can get relationship distress, sleep disturbances, things like high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and all these neuroplastic symptoms like tension, stomach issues, pain, um, and other physical symptoms as well.

SPEAKER_02:

So if you're someone that maybe struggles with anxiety as well, then this is a common state of when we're highly anxious, yeah. Of feeling that fight or flight. Um, maybe kind of obsessive thinking, like Tanner was mentioning, and that kind of rumination, very common to be in this state as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'd say like most anxiety disorders, um, OCD, like you're landing in this sympathetic state most of the time.

SPEAKER_02:

And again, the state isn't wrong or bad, but we want to recognize are we stuck in this state? Are we always there? Exactly. The next one we want to talk about is fawn. So that might be sympathetic or dorsal vagal state.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's kind of like it's an interesting one, the fawn, because it can be either or sympathetic or dorsal, or it can be a mix of the two.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Depending on how someone's like fawn response looks like. I would say this nervous system state is like the least well-known.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but really common, like when we're working with people, that people are in this fawn response very often.

SPEAKER_02:

And so this might look like people pleasing, perfectionism, worrying about what others think, maybe a lack of boundaries, being really agreeable.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yes. Yeah, lack of boundaries, agreeableness. You see, sometimes like there's just a lack of assertiveness or free expression. Like people lack freely expressing how they're feeling in relationships because they're like trying to please and keep the peace.

SPEAKER_02:

And so, how would this be a state that someone is stuck in tanner, but also connected having chronic pain and symptoms?

SPEAKER_00:

So it is a state because again, it is a survival response your nervous system is doing.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Basically, when people uh grew up in homes where love and attention was uh only given when your caregivers felt that you please them, right? Or your caregivers felt like you did a good enough job, it makes sense that that child now learns oh, I create safety by being in this fond response. I create safety by pleasing everyone else around me, by always putting other people's needs first, by never expressing myself, and by always being perfect. And so, like it is a survival response. Like, this is how people's nervous systems learn to create safety. And again, short term, that's okay. There like people pleasing, for example, we all do that in our relationships sometimes. Even perfectionism, I I know I can be a bit of a roaring perfectionist and it's gotten better, but even like trying to be perfect on like a smaller task, that's okay. It's just when it becomes excessive and long term, if you're always here, that's where neuroplastic pain and symptoms are gonna emerge. The final state freeze or shut down. This is your dorsal vagal state. So what happens here is immobilization with fear. So it's not like you're just becoming immobilized and getting calm and falling asleep. It's like you're immobilized, you're you're becoming immobilized out of a state of fear.

SPEAKER_02:

And we're not talking about always like cognitively being afraid.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it's like your nervous system is just shutting down to try and keep you safe. For some people, they get like dissociative. Um, despair and depression is gonna really live here. I would say a lack of motivation. Often people will disconnect from others or the world, hopeless, helpless feelings, abandonment, foggy inability to think or act. And when people are here, like the world's gonna feel very dark and very empty.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so again, I think it's really important to remember as we go through these different states that being briefly in a state of fight, fight, fawn, freeze, or shutdown is totally okay. The goal in learning about your nervous system is so that you can better identify your state and you can start to reduce self criticism and shame that you feel about being dysregulated. That is so common, I would say that we see this when working with people. Yes. People feel this like deep rooted shame that they're caught in. One of these dysregulated states.

SPEAKER_02:

Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I I just think people don't have the full understanding of how the nervous system functions. And so they self-blame. They think, oh, I'm to blame for me being always in fight or flight.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's like, no, you're not. You you are, if you are listening, you are truly not to blame for chronically being in states of fight, flight, fall, and freeze, or shutdown. We have a responsibility to work towards shifting that. But you have to understand when you're in any of these dysregulated states, every moment in your entire life has led up to you being here. Now we can do things to shift that, but the first thing that I tell people is we need to let go of the shame and self-blame and start to do some of this nervous system work, which begins with identifying when you are going into each of these states.

SPEAKER_02:

And we want kind of what Tanner's saying, we want to approach with compassion. That self-compassion piece around this is vital.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It really is. Um, self-compassion is this great way to regulate ourselves, even when we are feeling in one of these dysregulated states. And your nervous system, it's always trying to protect you. And sometimes it's gonna do that by shifting into survival states. And it's gonna do that by triggering pain and symptoms. And it's helpful to understand really why this is happening for you. And so now it's homework time. Not too hard, we promise. Not too hard. We want people to start asking what state is my nervous system in right now? So throughout your day, just start asking, okay, where am I at? Out of all the states that we talked about in this podcast episode, where am I landing at my lunch break today? And you're gonna be noticing your thinking, your physical sensations. When are you calm, present, or feeling regulated ventrover? When are you regulated, but a bit more energized? You got a little bit of that sympathetic going on. And when are you worried, obsessive, stressed out, irritated, and in this fight, fight, or fawn state, this kind of high sympathetic zone.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Or when are you feeling fatigued, overwhelmed, hopeless, and in a freeze or shutdown state, also known as dorsal vagal? So it's it would have been great if as kids we were taught this stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I think actually kids now more and more so are learning a bit about it.

SPEAKER_00:

They're learning a bit. Yeah, there's a lot more uh mental health initiatives going on. Like my son, for example, it's funny because like the breathing that we teach in our digital course. Now, his aren't called these fancy names that I call mine, but he'll come home and be like, I do bare breath.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I learned how to do bare breath too. Bare breath in my calm corner at school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm like, wow, that is wildly great. That's awesome. So, you know, but for many of us now as adults, we didn't learn this as kids. Yeah. And so we need to start to learn how to identify and describe our nervous system state. This step in building awareness can lead to so much clearer understanding of your needs, leading to like a better response of how to care for yourself and heal your pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_02:

But what's the step after awareness, Tanner? So someone's developing awareness and they're like, okay, I need to do something about this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So after awareness, there becomes many ways that you can start to regulate your nervous system. So, how can I go into fight or flight, attend to it, tolerate it, be safely in there, and then learn to help my nervous system move through. So that's a vital step. Part of it is like using safety signal practices that we use in our approach to start to learn to hang out in a safe and regulated state. Part of it may be trauma work for people.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

We can't skip over that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

That's gonna feel very difficult to do, but I've seen so many people benefit, and so many people have this trauma work be part of the reason they were able to heal their pain and symptoms. And part of the way we regulate is also what we call social safety in our approach. So, how can I learn to live differently? And that's where the awareness of the nervous system is so key because if you understand your own needs, you're gonna live differently to create a more safe and regulated response. And so, if people want deeper support, our team at Pain Psychotherapy Canada offers one-on-one therapy for clients in almost every province within Canada. Now, we also have our digital program, which is available worldwide. This is the somatic safety method. And we have a great group of people that are taking the program right now. And in this program, you're gonna get 10 hours of education, uh, 60 somatic and brain retraining practices. You're gonna get a bunch of worksheets and self-assessment tools. And there's also monthly QA sessions with myself, Ann, and our producer Alex.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and back to this idea that how we started our podcast, Hanner, because we started mentioning holiday time coming up, and we're leading into our like Christmas tree setup that we mentioned. And we know this time of year can be triggering and dysregulating, and um there's a lot of danger symptoms that can be happening. And so if you're thinking of getting more support, you want more support, don't wait. This is a great time to reach out to our clinic or start the course or go through all our free resources, start that work now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's it's one of those ones where I get why people put off therapy or taking a course or learning about neuroplastic symptoms and starting to treat them. They a lot of people put it off till January.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and I get that. Uh usually in January, we see in both our companies this burst of people coming in because they're ready to start the year anew.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but I think it's so vital, like going into holiday season if you know it's very stressful, you know, to get that work started now as we move. Are we in December? No, we're not in December yet. We're almost almost in December. It's a it's a great time to start to get the support you need.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, for sure. And we're gonna have a lot more support on our podcast and all of our different resources as well, kind of focusing on holiday season. But yeah, got the support you need heading into this time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So everyone wish us luck on our Christmas tree setup tonight.

SPEAKER_02:

We'll be working on trying to have flexible regulation throughout the evening.

SPEAKER_00:

Flexible regulation. For all of us. For all of us.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Usually there are fights over who hangs what Christmas ornaments. It's a long journey. It's a journey, Ann. Yeah. A journey that we're prepared for. We're prepared. We're well, we're somewhat prepared, let's be honest with ourselves. We don't know what we're walking into. But anyways, thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for listening. And we'll talk to you next week. Talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

SPEAKER_00:

We wish you all healing.