The Mind-Body Couple

Why I Stuck With Tanner Through His Chronic Pain Journey

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson • Episode 132

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Send your questions to be answered live on the podcast to: info@painpsychotherapy.ca


Love doesn’t disappear when chronic pain shows up, but it can get buried under appointments, bills, and long stretches of silence. We open up about the years when pain became the only topic in our home, the ways our roles warped into caregiver and patient, and the slow, deliberate choices that helped us find our way back to closeness while symptoms were still present. This is a story about social safety—how relationships can signal danger or safety—and how changing that signal can reduce neuroplastic pain.

We break down the hidden traps couples fall into: letting pain consume every conversation, organizing the relationship around “fighting the system,” and staying too long in a caregiver role. Then we share what worked. Communication that aims at co‑regulation rather than debate. Partner involvement that supports, not polices. Shared learning about brain-based approaches so skepticism doesn’t sabotage progress. And boundaries that protect the supporter’s identity—because a regulated partner has more to give than a depleted one.

Expect concrete takeaways you can use right away: weekly “no symptom talk” windows to protect connection, small exposure steps that rebuild everyday life together, one‑sentence appreciations that melt shame, and a clear plan to shift roles back from caregiving to companionship. If chronic pain has narrowed your world, this conversation offers a map to widen it again—without waiting for perfect health to start living. If this resonates, subscribe, share with someone who needs it, and tell us: which step will you try this week?

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married! In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were occurring due to learned brain pathways and nervous system dysregulation. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make gradual changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, which is an in-depth online course that provides step-by-step guidance for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Also check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Discl...

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to the Mind Body Couple podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Tanner Murtoff.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm Ann Hampson.

SPEAKER_00:

This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_01:

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapy.ca.

SPEAKER_00:

Or purchase our online course at embodycommunity.com to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools, and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode.

SPEAKER_01:

Hi everyone. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome, welcome. We have kind of a bit more personal topic today. Um, and we want to talk with you guys about why I stuck with Tanner through his pain journey. There's kind of a backstory to why we're sharing this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So in our digital course, we do live QA's with the members each month. And this was a question that one of the members asked Ann.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And it kind of spawned this idea with us and our producer Alex that we should talk about this because sadly, I have seen so many relationships, whether that be like romantic relationships or relation like friendships or family, like I've seen these break apart. And, you know, no one's to blame for that, in my opinion, in a lot of these situations. It's just because, you know, chronic pain and illness can take up a lot of space in our relationships and can create a lot of dysregulation for people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely. And it's an important piece to talk about. I think most people that I come across, whether it's connected to a recourse or um maybe therapy clients that I work with, are talking about relationships to some degree and how they have been impacted. And so we really want to speak to that today.

SPEAKER_00:

We talk about this social safety, which is largely due to the relationships we have with others, how we're relating to others. Are these relationships sending signals of safety or danger?

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Definitely. And so we hope we hope this podcast is helpful for you guys in terms of like reflecting on this relationship piece.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So before we dive into this, we want to talk about a special thing that's coming up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So we are going to be doing a QA podcast series in the near future. So we want to ask something of the listeners. Yeah. We want to start directly answering your questions in future podcast episodes. Now, here's how you can submit your questions. Write out a brief summary of your experience and one question you would like us to answer. I want to be clear here. Maximum one to two paragraphs in length.

SPEAKER_01:

And we know that's hard. And it's not that we want to like limit on maybe what you want to say, but we have a limit in time in terms of the podcast episode.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like we're going to be going through these uh questions and trying to basically break them apart into different topics so we can have like an episode answering your questions on a certain topic, such as brainwetraining. So try not to write three pages, uh, one to two paragraphs, so it's easy for us to go through, and just a single question. Now you can submit this to info at painpsychotherapy.ca. This is the email address. Now, spelling that out might be difficult. I'm gonna put it in the description of this podcast episode. So the email will be right there for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So now we're gonna dive into our topic for today.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And one thing I kind of want to say about this topic is I think we've touched on living, being a partner living with someone with chronic pain in different episodes at times, different pieces of our story, but we've never actually really made that a focus.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think we've talked about it in passing, but it's rare we do a full episode on relationships and how you can help them thrive while you're dealing with chronic pain and chronic illness.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And so I think in this episode, you guys, there's a few things we want to touch on. So we're gonna explore a little bit about Tanner's pain and how it affected our relationship. We wanna talk about kind of my experience of living alongside him, how I experienced that as his partner, and also what it was like to watch him start healing. But that process for me, because again, that idea of being the spouse, partner, family member, what was it like healing alongside and experiencing that too? So we really want to pinpoint that. We do want to say whether you're navigating chronic pain yourself or supporting someone, we hope this episode will be helpful for you and like get a deeper understanding of how chronic symptoms impact relationships.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. That's what we're going for. We're gonna help you have this deeper understanding and then help you hopefully improve your relationships.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the hope for this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And the idea here is that that's gonna create more safety and that's gonna help the person with chronic pain and illness ultimately heal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So we wanted to start with why chronic pain and illness is hard for friends and family. Uh this, like we said, is incredibly difficult to deal with when we're when we're in relationships with others. It's of course really difficult for the person with chronic pain and illness themselves, but also for the romantic partner, the family member, or the friend. Because one thing that I see is chronic pain and illness takes up a lot of space.

SPEAKER_01:

What do you mean by that, Tanner? Like it takes up a lot of space.

SPEAKER_00:

It almost consumes our relationships.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And a lot of times this happens so gradually. Like it's rare someone that has like severe symptoms and debilitation at first. It does happen, but often like it just builds and builds and builds. And I've seen chronic pain and illness just take over people's relationships. And the reason I say it takes up a lot of space is this could include things like excessive appointments. Like when I was in pain, I was going to four appointments a week. And then it could be procedures or preparing for surgery. And it can be the main thing we talked about. Like by the end, something that we really struggled with and we've talked about, Anne, is how much we were just talking about my pain and how I was going to heal or how I was never going to heal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It was basically the only thing we talked about.

SPEAKER_01:

And I remember that, Tanner, and I agree. And so from your like the spouse perspective, that's exactly where things ended up. I also remember this gradual kind of build of having chronic pain and symptoms, and maybe also mental health be the focus of our lives. Yes. And you're right. There's this gradual buildup to it. Um and it's funny that way where it's gradual because you kind of just get used to that. And all of a sudden, it's really everything is encompassed by this. And you're like, oh, this is what my life is like now. And it sneaks up on you a little bit.

SPEAKER_00:

It's kind of like that metaphor they often talk about of the frog, where they're in the boiler, like in the water. Yes. And slowly did the temperature builds and builds and builds. And for a lot of people, they realize like, how did my relationship become like this?

SPEAKER_01:

But the people around are also impacted.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and I don't think we always realized that in our relationship, Tanner, or talked about that along the way, of like how much I was also being impacted. Um, and we were this kind of unit really affected by this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Another thing that I often see really difficult for people is the lifestyle changes that take place. So this can include the person with chronic pain and illness having very limited mobility. Yes. Or limited activities. Or, you know, things like financial situations changing. Like even for ourselves, like I was off work for a period of time or I was only able to work part-time. Like that had an impact on our relationship. And I was basically not able to walk or thought I couldn't walk for more than 10 minutes. And you know, me and Anne were never we're not happy. We're not hikers, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Um But it still had impact. It did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I and I think that impact can be more with mobility or activity if like prior to chronic pain and illness, like people's friend network or their relationship, like romantic relationship really involved around physical activity.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So people talk with me about that a lot of like, I used to have this very active lifestyle. Um, my social network was very much connected to this active lifestyle. And then over time, with chronic pain or symptoms, that stopped. And yeah, when you're a family member or a spouse or someone in that active lifestyle, that sometimes stops for you too. And there can be this very big confusion part. I remember for me, Tanner, we just stopped doing things together. We couldn't do as much, we were doing less. Um, you were unable to maybe go out in ways that we used to. Um and I remember realizing that, but yeah, this gradual thing is interesting because it was so gradual that I just kind of got used to doing less with you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like the next level and the next level. And I yeah, like in that last year, I remember stepping back and being like, whoa, what has happened? Um, and us feeling very disconnected. And we'll we're gonna get into that a little bit more later in the episode. But but you know, that happens in relationships where people realize, like, whoa, how did my relationship get this way?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

The other big factor that I see is like mental health concerns that come with chronic pain and illness, or to be honest, fueled the chronic pain and illness. Okay. So it's like one, like before or after.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

For example, as we've talked about with neuroplastic pain and symptoms, you know, your body's not damaged or diseased. This is a brain and nervous system process that's happening when basically your nervous system feels so much danger. So a lot of people, even before they had pain and illness, had like anxiety, depression, or trauma symptoms going on. But then when the pain and illness takes over, it just becomes exacerbated.

SPEAKER_01:

And I remember that, and I I think I've said that before in other podcasts that this was, I think, the most difficult part for me because I really saw you struggling with your mental health tenor. I saw you struggling with pain, but I understood it more as mental health at the time. Like that was what was more apparent for me. Um, and I think many people might be able to relate to me if you know your your loved one is struggling with mental health. It can feel very isolating, lonely, and very much out of control of like what can I do? And that can be a very difficult place to be in for a family member or a spouse where we're kind of watching them and feeling like they're we can't do anything. And there's a lot of emotions inside. And I'll talk about this as we go through this a lot, but it's important to recognize that that that family member is going through their own emotional journey as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And and that's what this is is like the person with chronic pain or illness who's having mental health concerns, they often as they go through this, feel hopeless and helpless. But the family member or the friend also feels very hopeless and helpless. Because I remember you trying so hard to like help me. And we came to this place of like, maybe this is just what it is. Like there really wasn't a lot of hope before like I came to a brain-based approach by the end. And I this leads us to our next point of like a trauma response that happens to pain and illness. Because this can take place. People can get this like really intense fight, flight, fall, and freeze, or shutdown response to their pain and symptoms over time. And we call this sensitization trauma.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you think there can be, I know, maybe this is complicated, but a trauma response to like the family unit? Like it may be like a like the unique trauma experience together.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, I I do think that that's the case. It's interesting. We've never really talked about that idea. Yeah. Because yeah, I think the person themselves can have the trauma response to pain and illness. But I think, yes, of course, the the family member, the friend can start to have this trauma response too.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Well, and and and I think it's important that we talk about this because this is an area that isn't talked about much in the mental health world.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like it is, but it isn't. Um, in terms of like how much others are are also kind of impacted in a very difficult way. Yeah. Um, and we want to kind of validate that experience for the whole, the whole unit, if that makes sense. Because I remember, Tanner, like when you were struggling so much, I remember, like, I remember I would go, I was in my master's degree. Yeah. And I would go to my practicum, and I you were off work, and I actually didn't know if you were gonna have a like a crisis while I was gone. Yeah. And I'd be scared and I'd be like, you know, dealing with mental health at work, but I'd be terrified about maybe what I might encounter at home.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that can be very traumatic.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

Um and and I think as a support person, we push our experience aside because like their experience is like what we're focused on.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think for some people, what'll happen is like the confusion or frustration with the medical system starts to take place as well. You know, we talk about sensitization trauma to the actual pain or symptom sensations, but I've seen relationships where the only goal in the relationship was to fight the medical system.

SPEAKER_01:

Like together.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And I get how people got there. I'm not like truly when I say this, I'm not saying this in a judgmental way. Because I felt incredible rage at my doctors and therapists and different people because I just wasn't getting better or I was being stigmatized. And but I've seen this pattern in a relationship become like fight the medical system. And in some ways, they're almost like banding together to do that. But at a point, at a given point, it actually starts to create more danger, more dysregulation.

SPEAKER_01:

How does that create more danger? Because I think some listeners might be like, hey, I relate to that. We're fighting it together. Like this is bringing us together.

SPEAKER_00:

Totally. It's it's interesting because there's a fine line between like, first off, the fight response can be very useful. It's not, it's not unuseful. It's it's normal to have this kind of like frustrated, angry, mobilized feeling. But and that can be empowering in some capacity, like there's purpose. But I think when people are there for too long, it starts to become unhealthy. And it starts to just drag them both down. Um you know, and so like it's just considering that as people are watching their relationships. And I think generally for people, what happens with is they just have a lack of hope for the future that takes place over time, which can greatly affect both sides, as we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01:

And we want to really emphasize that that can be very normal. So when we're struggling with mental health or chronic pain for a long time, um, in some sort of relationship, whether it's like loved one, friends, family member, spouse, this lack of hope um makes sense that that can happen and that can be a difficult place.

SPEAKER_00:

Especially as symptoms go on for years. Yeah. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think all these points that we've talked about of why chronic pain and illness is hard for friends and family can lead to this final point of distance, arguments, or conflicts from all these factors taking place. Um thinking back on our journey, I think there were some arguments. Like there was some, I would say, but I think there were our our thing that we fell into was just this distance.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Of just at points, like complete disconnection. Like I often tell my clients, like by the end, I didn't even know if Anne was in the house. Like I was so dissociative and just like either lying in front of the TV or lying in bed in the dark. Um, and then this was an incredibly hard time. And so, like, for lots of these relationships, this distance, arguments, conflict starts to rise more and more.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I remember that. Like, I remember um feeling the distance, like we'd go out for dinner, but you wouldn't really speak to me. Do you remember that? I remember that. And I would be like, you're not talking to me. I wouldn't know what to do. So, and I still struggle with that actually. And I I'll point it out and be like, uh, you're not talking to me. Yeah. Um, because I would feel uncomfortable, but also like confused. I was confused by this distance and maybe this dissociative state that you talk about. Um and we so we spent a lot of time kind of not really in communication at all. Um, and and that was a really hard part and can be a very uncomfortable part for any relationship when you're in that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I just think the the distance is really so common because for a lot of people who have chronic pain and illness, by the end, they're almost in this kind of free shutdown response.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So there is natural disconnection to survive. There's just disconnection from their body, there's disconnection from their external world. And I think like that's what was happening where I was just, I was just gone. Um, and it was a survival response. I was just gone to try and survive all the unpleasantness inside. And fortunately, as we came to a brain-based approach, that kind of thawed and that distance became less and less. Yeah. Thankfully.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and and that's a good point. And that kind of leads us into more of our episode a little bit right now, because we also want to say we're not bringing up all these difficulties to be like, oh, hey, look how difficult it is for you guys.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

We want to bring in some hope and share a little bit of how we worked through it together.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, one thing we really wanted to hit on before we go into some of the things you can do, the ways you can create hope in your relationships is we want to talk about shame and self-blame.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because no one, I want to be clear, no one is to blame for their symptoms. Even though neuroplastic pain and symptoms are caused by the brain and not the body, it does not mean you are to blame. And we really believe this can happen to anyone. You know, in Canada at least, when you look at the research, like one in five Canadians experience chronic pain. And much of this, in our opinion, is likely neuroplastic. And so as we're talking, I wanted to be conscious of this because as we're talking about relationships, I think the person with chronic pain and illness often blames themselves for the relationship falling apart. And and I really don't view it as that. Like I I view it as, you know, debilitating chronic pain and chronic illness, as we said, it takes up a lot of space and it's incredibly hard to deal with on both sides. And I've never seen one couple go through without bumpiness when one of them had chronic pain or illness. So no one is to blame. This is just a very difficult thing to start to deal with.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. And I a starting place then is acknowledging okay, what's going on for both parties and what can we do about it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Yeah. And, you know, even with our health system, there's such a lack of understanding and support and treatment for individuals with chronic pain and illness. There just is. And and often the treatment isn't correct because most chronic symptoms are neuroplastic. And this means there's going to be so much stress and confusion put on that individual and put on their social system.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for sure. There is. And so right now we want to talk about then why did I stay with Tanner through tough times?

SPEAKER_00:

Why did you stay with me?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and we laugh at that because sometimes we talk about that and a bit more in a deeper way than we are laughing right now. Yeah. Um and we reflect on that because, like we said, it was a very difficult time. And so I want to share a little bit about my experience with that. First and first of all, I loved Tanner. And so I'm loved. Yeah. And I and I loved him then too. Um and I loved him when we first met and we were very young. And so that love was always there. Um and that was my foundation. And often when I'm working with spouses or family members of someone struggling with chronic pain, they tell me the same thing. They're like, I love my partner. I I want to be with them, but this is a difficult time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I think one thing that I think about sometimes of why you stayed, um, and you probably have other points, but I think me and Anne share, well, there's many traits we do not share, which gives some spice and variety to our relationships.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my goodness. There we go.

SPEAKER_00:

There we go. But but I think one thing that we do really share and like value in all of our relationships, sometimes to a fault, is we are very committed and loyal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Like we are. We're just naturally very committed and loyal people. And so we've gone through some really dark times. And of course, at those times, people consider the ending of a relationship. But I think we were very loyal to each other.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And yeah, when we think of like the foundation and that we had, there's a lot of love and a lot of commitment. But yeah, it was very difficult, difficult for me, difficult for him. I believed he could change or get better. And I mean get better as in get better with pain or mental health or his situation. A lot of the time I didn't know what get getting better even meant. But I believed that something could change. I kind of just didn't know when that would be. Yeah. As things went on, you're right, Tanner. Things got, there was a little bit of question of like, is this our normal forever? Um, and I didn't know. And that was really hard as a spouse or partner to kind of grapple with this idea of like, maybe this isn't our normal, but there's always a piece that, or this is our normal, sorry, but there was always a piece in me that held on to like something will change. Yeah. Um, and so that was really helpful. And again, a lot of partners I talked to hold on to that belief that something will change.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there's that hope that helps them get through in some capacity.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I also knew that it wasn't his fault. So back to that shame piece, I had enough, even though I didn't quite understand what's going on, I had enough awareness that he wasn't doing this on purpose. If he if things could change, it would. If he knew the way out of this, he would find and work on that way. Um, and I really uh had to hold on to that and remind myself sometimes when if things were hard, that this wasn't his fault. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't his fault, it wasn't our fault.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's interesting because I think at points in our life when we didn't have chronic pain, we kind of played the blame game together a bit on different issues. But I kind of felt the same way when I was going through chronic pain and illness. Like I never felt like I should blame you. You know what I mean? Like I knew in the back of my mind, like, whoa, this is like incredibly dark and difficult. And like I could see you trying to do your best. So I think that really benefited us as we were going.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um, I was focusing on my own life too, and we're gonna talk a bit about that point uh later on. But I was aware that I needed to keep my life going. So if I saw Tatter's life struggling, which I was, I needed to do my life and my things and like really put my energy into that. Um, one, because I didn't want us both to be struggling deeply. So I was aware that I needed to kind of keep my thing going.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think there was that. And the other thing I noticed about you is is you were really good at keeping like your own social supports.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Like friends, family, um doing some of that stuff. Um where you know, I have seen people get so fixated on helping the person with chronic pain and illness that their own regulation goes out the window.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so that's a big one. And and when I um I mentioned like working with friends or family, when I do start working with friends or family, that's a big piece of what we talk about of like what is your support? Who do you reach out to? Um, where do you get that guidance? What do you do with difficult emotions and feelings? Because those are going to be there.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I I thought, you know, when we kind of were discussing this episode, we talk about three main topics that we really want people to consider in their relationships and consider how they might want to start improving this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because the the three topics we wrote out uh I think are very important. I think they are a big reason why we stayed together. Um and there are ways you can improve it even if you have pain and illness still happening. Don't wait until your pain and illness goes away completely to try and improve your relationships. It's a similar pattern I see and with people where they're waiting to start to live life until their pain and symptoms go away. But that's not the order that this needs to happen. You need to start living life, and that's gonna help your pain and symptoms reduce. You need to start improving your relationships, and that's gonna help your pain and illness reduce.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and the starting place might be the awareness that, oh, this is what's happening in our relationship right now. Everything that we just talked about. And so our first point that we really want to emphasize is communication was key. And like we talked about, we didn't have very good communication for a long time. That started a bit better when we went started on like our healing process.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it was interesting because I think we were doing pretty well with communication at first.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like I would say, like because my pain was around for about three and a half years. And so I would say, you know, the first year and a half wasn't great, but it was we were on board, and then it just like sank and crashed and burned. And then as I started to understand a brain-based approach, I was looking into Dr. Sarno, Dr. Schuberner. Then all of a sudden, our communication started to grow again and was a big part of the healing. You know, I do want to say, of course, me and Ann are both therapists. So, you know, we're we communicate maybe a little too much sometimes about issues. So, but this is really vital. Like, there needs to be that communication, I think, around like how the person with pain and illness is struggling, but also like getting in relationships and and healing together, like starting to be really involved with the healing work.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that's it. Like, if we want to heal, we can heal ourselves, like uh like if we're struggling with chronic pain and illness, or if we're, you know, our partner, we can do that in silos. Yeah. But there's a big thing about doing that together and doing the work together. And so bringing in your partner to that work.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, I think there's just it's this polyvagal theory concept of co-regulation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Which is, you know, we all have nervous a nervous system, and co-regulation is actually the natural way we regulate. So it's it's when your nervous system and another person's nervous system are essentially leading each other back to safety. And I see this so often, like, it's really hard to heal in isolation. I get that some people are in that situation. I truly feel for you. But I really urge people, even on my YouTube channel, I urge people like, get out there, uh, join a new club. I know that's scary. Join a new hobby, like start to become social and have these relationships because we need that co regulation and we need that and that communication to be healthy and resilient as we're going.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So it's almost getting you and your level. One co-regulating together.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And you can do that. Like I think that was definitely something we did as I started to heal using a brain-based approach, is we would talk about it a lot.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I was, for the first time in a long time, excited to talk to you about something. Instead of talking to you about how hopeless and helpless my symptoms were, and it was all going to be darkness for the rest of my life. All of a sudden I was talking about like, what are the things I should try?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And so that distance started to kind of dissipate a little bit as we started talking to each other. Um, Tana really started to involve me in the healing process a little bit. Yeah. Um, and then it I felt like we were working on this together, not in a fight the medical system way, in a like a more of a therapeutic way.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, in a very therapeutic way. I uh this is this is kind of funny, but I knew like, oh, expressing emotions is like really good. You gotta start doing that because I was such a people pleaser back then. I would just harbor everything.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then explode. Yes. Um sometimes. So I started to, yeah, what's better now. Come on. But but I would start to like actually express myself of like, no, I actually don't want to do that, Ann. Or this is how I feel about what you said. Like, even some of that stuff was really helpful, even if it did cause these little ruptures, because there was like repair right after.

SPEAKER_01:

So Tanner really helped me be part of the process and like work on recovery together. Sometimes that was like physical stuff in treatments or like walking a little bit. I was a part of that, as part of that exposure work a bit. Um, some of the brain retraining stuff. So I started doing a reading about it. I started learning about it. Um, I gave him time to do his practices. And so I had this understanding of why this was important. I was on board with it. So I was kind of being that support person around it. Um, I the more I learned, the more I understood as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I think you hit on a really important point because one thing that I'll see stall people's healing. And this is difficult because I know we can't, you know, intentionally control other people. Well, we can try, but it's not gonna go very well. But when I see someone trying to recover from their pain and illness, and their partner or their friend is being like, nah, this this brain-based stuff is not real. It's it's not effective, like they're calling your pain fake, like that kind of feel. Ooh, I've seen people heal, but it it's so hard because they're they're getting this feedback from people that they deeply trust that basically this approach is BS.

SPEAKER_01:

And so you need to educate your person.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You need to inform them, like they're not gonna understand it easily. It is it is a concept. This brainer training and neuroplastic pain is a concept that feels a bit foreign. And so they're really gonna need to understand.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I needed that from Tanner. I really need to learn. Um, and that helped again that distance dissipate, it helped me feel like I was on board, it helped me understand, and it helped me learn how to work on this with him.

SPEAKER_00:

And I and I did truly feel like we were both excited about it, and we both knew like this is it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Like we like, and that was really helpful. And I also had friends, like a good group of friends, um, a couple that are therapists as well. But um, I remember my one friend being like, you got to stop with the physical, like this is what's going on, it's neuroplastic. There was such support after I explained the ideas to them of like they were like, oh yeah, like you need to be doing this. And they would check in about how the work's going and that kind of thing. So it was, it was, you know, when people ask, okay, what exactly did Tanner do to heal? It's like, okay, I can explain to you all of the fancy techniques that I utilize and that I do value, I think they're important. But I also built up a really strong support network that was very helpful for my healing.

SPEAKER_01:

And with that, I really started to heal too. I was letting go of like the difficult emotions I had. I was feeling more hope and more connected.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so without us realizing, Ann, we've gone into our second section that we want to talk about, which is the involvement and caring and the healing process and how important that was for us and how that strengthened our relationship. Now I want to say something clearly. Yes, you want your partner, friend, family to be involved. You do not want them to be involved too much.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So there's a line there.

SPEAKER_00:

There's, I see this be a barrier where the like, especially in romantic relationships, it's so clear of like what's occurred. And I again I get how people got here. But it's like the partner becomes their caregiver.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh yeah. So that really started happening for us too.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and it was really hard not to fall into that role as the caregiver, as well, there we go, as the caregiver. I mean as the partner. Um, because you kind of fall into that for reasons, right? There's reasons why that starts happening.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Like it makes sense because it for myself, like I could barely walk. Right. So that's true. So it's like, okay, who's doing the grocery shopping? Yeah. And needs to do the grocery shopping because I can't go walk around the grocery shop for 20 minutes. Right. Like some of these things just happen. Um, now I can't work. And so now Anne's working to support me, right? Yeah. And again, I don't think this is like completely negative. I want to be clear about that because, like, for the partners listening out there or the family members listening out there, we totally get how you got there. But to heal neuroplastic pain and symptoms, we need to shift out of those relationships over time. Like, I think at especially in the last year, I think from if someone had a video camera videotaping our life, I think they would have put Anne more in the caregiver role than the like romantic partner role.

SPEAKER_01:

And that can be very difficult on relationships, especially romantic relationships.

SPEAKER_00:

And so, like, shifting that was also exposure. Like, I had to start doing the things to show my body, hey, I'm safe to start living life again. I'm safe to treat Anne like my partner again. So I think that that shift was really key.

SPEAKER_01:

And then I had to, that's right, I had to slow or stop scale back to caregiving. But you make a good point that both people have to shift that. And so, say I just stopped caregiving and then you're like, I need this caregiving, or vice versa. That that's where that communication is important.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. And it you don't need to I want to be so clear because when people are listening, you don't need to cut it off completely, like sharply. Like that's not what me and Ann did. It's just like we slowly started to shift back to romantic partner roles.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Instead of you being the caregiver and I being the one who's being cared for.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like that shift, it wasn't instant, but that was really vital. Um and to be honest, improved my mental health drastically.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And I talk with partners about this too of like, maybe we need to give them room to realize they don't always need that. And so, and for a while, I was like, well, but he does, or they do, and I already need to keep caregiving. And so that was a bit of exposure to be like, oh, no, I actually have to stop this behavior.

SPEAKER_00:

And it kind of leads into our third piece, our third point of why Ann stayed with me. In the sense of Anne, I saw her consistently keep her hobbies and interests.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And I, as we said at the beginning of this episode, I think that was so key. To be honest, at points, watching you, I felt resentful.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure, that's not that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it wasn't justifiable, but to be honest, I was resentful at anyone living fully.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and at the same hand, I didn't want to drag Anne down with me, but it was just like really hard to see Anne's career growing, Anne's hobbies growing, Anne's friend group growing, and mine shrinking. Yes. That was like a really hard thing that I felt a lot of shame around. So anyone out there who feels like that, I I get it. Like I get why we get that.

SPEAKER_01:

And you know what? There can be guilt on the partner of living their life too. And that can be a really sticky situation of like, well, I don't want to go out and live my life when they're struggling here. But it's so important to keep your life going for your your own well-being and mental health. Yeah. Um, and and that was a huge part of like, okay, I'm able to, I'm, I'm not fully engulfed in maybe what's happening right here. I have my own life.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it leads to this saying that you often hear um in therapy with like children. And I learned this quickly as a parent, is you cannot expect your child to be regulated if you are dysregulated.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

That cannot happen. Because like that regulation needs to come from the parents. Now, again, we're trying to get people out of caregiving roles. So I know the analogy doesn't cross over perfectly. But I do think that by the family member or friend keeping their hobbies, keeping their life big, keeping their interest, keeping their support network, it gives them enough regulation to support the person with chronic pain more in the ways that they need. Because you're right, like when you would go to work all day, yeah, like when you come home, it would dark, it was darkness. Um but I'm sure you keeping your life bigger in this way gave you that regulation to make it through some of those times.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for sure it did. And it can feel like counterintuitive because you're like, I don't want to do all these things, but it's actually it's helping. And I hope Tanner, it showed you, hey, there is life out there. Come join me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So this is kind of our episode.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Give some ideas around how you can actually strengthen your relationships, which again is going to create safety, and that's gonna help you reduce your pain and illness. And so we really think there's a strong connection here. Really vital to work on some of this stuff. I know we get locked into the micro skills, the brain retraining, the emotional processing. I love all that stuff, but think about social safety. How can I create more social safety in my relationships? And so if you're experiencing neuroplastic pain and symptoms, uh think about is there anything you can do to help the individuals supporting you better understand your condition? Can you explain it? Explain it in a way that's clear. Explain what you might need from them. We also want to help those that are caring for you feel appreciated and cared for. I know that's hard when we have neuroplastic pain and illness, and it's really taken over our lives, but we want to be aware like how can we show that appreciation and care for the people that are supporting you? Improving communication.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's a big one. If you notice, okay, we're in that distance, we're not communicating, try practicing kind of just a bit more communication. So there's gradual exposure to more communication. Yeah. Um, being both involved in the healing work. So if that's possible, so that needs some communication, then it leads into working on healing work together. Have that support person understand and be part of that process. They want to be, they want to know what's going on, they want to help, they want you to outline how they can help. Yep. Um, have if you're a support person or let your support person know that they can have their life. Give them space for their life. As a support person, start living your life. Make your hobbies and interests and connections with other people a part of your world.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, really value those as you're growing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And expressing appreciation and gratitude. Um, I know that's not easy when things are rough and dark. It was not easy for us. Um, but we think it's an important piece just to try to kind of tap into.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So we hope everyone found this episode helpful.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. We know it's a bit different than kind of tools and focusing on different things like that, but we think it's an important thing to talk about.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. So thank you so much for listening.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_00:

And we'll talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_01:

Talk to you next time. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook accounts in the episode description.