Treat the Root Cause: Fatigue & Long Covid feat. Dr. Kennedy

In this episode, we are joined by one of the world's leading expert physicians on neuroplastic pain and symptoms. Dr. Rebecca Kennedy sits down with Tanner, sharing science, personal stories, and practical ideas to get to the root of chronic symptoms - and heal!

We discuss how chronic fatigue and long COVID are commonly neuroplastic - meaning they are generated by the brain and nervous system, not ongoing physical damage or disease.

You'll lean:
• Why downstream biomarkers reflect brain functioning and nervous system state, not irreversible physical damage
• Why symptoms occur, and how they can move and change
• The importance of emotional awareness and expression in recovery
• Ideas for increasing mind-body communication
• About Dr. Kennedy’s 1:1 work, team approach, and upcoming course

Rebecca Kennedy, MD, is a family medicine physician with more than 20 years of clinical experience. She worked at a migrant farmworker clinic at the start of her career, then spent 15 years at Kaiser Permanente in Portland, Oregon, where she served as the lead physician for the Long COVID specialty group.

In 2023, she founded Resilience Health Care, a clinic dedicated to treating neuroplastic symptoms. She now provides virtual consultations to patients worldwide and supports recovery from a wide range of chronic symptoms with a particular focus on long COVID. 

She is active in teaching, collaboration, and advocacy. Dr. Kennedy collaborates internationally on treating chronic pain and other persistent symptoms. She is a member of the Oslo Chronic Fatigue Consortium and serves as board chair of the nonprofit
Association for the Treatment of Neuroplastic Symptoms (ATNS).

Dr. Kennedy's Resilience Health Care Clinic: https://resilience-healthcare.com/

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married!

In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were neuroplastic, not structural. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make changes in your life and health!

The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/

Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, an in-depth online course that provides a step-by-step process for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com

Check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ

And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy

Disclaimer: The information provided on this podcast is for general in...

Transcript

Welcome And Resources

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Mind Body Couple podcast. I'm Tana Murtaugh and I'm Ann Hampson.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapy.ca.

Introducing Dr. Rebecca Kennedy

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Or purchase our online course at embodycommunity.com to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools, and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. Hi everyone, welcome back to the podcast. Today we are honored to welcome Dr. Rebecca Kennedy, who is a family medicine physician experienced in applying neuroplastic science to chronic symptoms. As the board chair of the Association for the Treatment of Neuroplastic Symptoms, Dr. Kennedy is a leader in the advancement of mind-body treatment, who is not only helping patients individually, but advancing our movement through education and research. So welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Thanks, Tanner. It's great to see you.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Yeah, it's good to see you again. I know we we did an interview, uh, which some of the uh viewers may have seen. That must have been like two years ago at this point.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, right. I think so.

Why Brain-Generated Symptoms Are Real

SPEAKER_02 1:44

It was a while back. So yeah, I'm I'm thrilled to have you on here. And you know, I want to get your insights just around, you know, chronic fatigue, long COVID. So we're gonna dive into some questions because I know these are common topics that sometimes are missed, I would say. Um because so much of the content that's being created and the research is focused on pain, but so many people either have pain, fatigue, and long COVID, or just fatigue and long COVID by itself.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

So if someone listening has chronic fatigue or long COVID and is feeling, you know, really hopeless about their recovery, what would you typically want them to understand first when they're kind of coming to the work in this way?

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Well, I think the most important part to understand is that there is hope.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

There's many, many, many, many people who have fully recovered from long COVID, chronic fatigue using the new neuroscience models of understanding that symptoms are made in the brain, by the brain, as warning protective signals. But more than that, our brain is constantly communicating with our body through biochemical signals. So there also can be changes in the body, but that's happening because of the signals in the brain that are stuck in place. And because of that understanding and looking at it through a different lens, that full recovery is possible.

Tests, Biomarkers, And The Root Cause

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah. So it's an interesting way to explain it, because of course the brain and body are communicating in this way, but you're kind of saying, just to be clear for the listeners, that it's brain generated, but this may result in changes kind of taking place.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah, right, exactly. Right. So, you know, just like, you know, if you blush, so if someone has stage fright and they go on stage, they might have blushing. So they have warmth and redness that you can feel and see in the body. And then they can have lots of other actual, like physiologic changes happening in their body. Their heart rate is going fast, they're sweating, they can feel dizzy, lightheaded, tingly, you know, all of these different sensations. And the actual experience of the sensation itself is happening by neural circuits in the brain, just like pain is made in the brain by the brain, so is the sensation of dizziness or nausea or tingling or warmth, whatever it is. The sensation is made in the brain by the brain. And also there can be biochemical changes happening, physiological changes happening in our body, but it doesn't, I guess the key part is that the physiologic changes happening in the body is not the source of the problem. And so by treating the body and by treating those physiologic changes in the body, you're never going to get to the root. And therefore, you're not going to fully resolve the symptoms that way.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Okay. Okay. Yeah, that was very clear. I appreciate that because it's, yeah, you hear this so often. I hear this from the clients at our clinic that people with chronic fatigue, long COVID, they get all these tests, they get all these different scans done, and things are found. And it almost like pushes them away from using like a neuroplastic approach.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

There are changes, but it doesn't mean that these are the root causes of chronic sensations that people are having.

A Doctor’s Personal Recovery Story

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Exactly right. And, you know, we know through studies that there can be cytokine changes and mitochondria changes and inflammatory changes when our nervous system is stuck in the chronic fight or flight stress response. There's all these biochemical changes that can be happening downstream. But again, the way that we resolve them completely is understanding what is our particular brain responding to. Like, why does our, like why does my brain think that I'm actually in danger? And so then sending these danger signals. And when you can really understand that and get to that root and teach the unconscious brain that it doesn't need to be making these danger signals in the first place, then it dials those danger signals down that then has that downstream effect, changing the cytokines or the mitochondria or the inflammation.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yes. Okay. So it's by essentially working with the brain and nervous system using these approaches we have, like pain reprocessing therapy, emotional awareness and expression therapy, where we're essentially treating psychologically the brain. And by doing that, these abnormal findings will naturally start to fade off.

Eliminating Chronicity Versus Eliminating Symptoms

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Exactly. Like for me, I developed chronic pain and fatigue that was quite severe. And if people don't know my story, I actually developed it after I learned about this work. In my particular body, my brain makes inflammation. Not everybody does get inflammation in their body when they have chronic symptoms. My brain does. So you can see, actually see swelling in various joints and parts of my body. So once I've gone through all that, it took me quite a while to get better, actually. But my brain will still make swelling. So I mean, as you know, I'm sure Tanner is that recovery from chronic symptoms doesn't mean that you never have a neuroplastic symptom again in your life. It's just that now you understand it. This is the way our unconscious brain communicates with our conscious brain. And when we learn to understand what it's trying to communicate, then we can respond appropriately so we don't have to have chronic symptoms. Oh, not so long ago, eight months ago or something, I woke up and my wrist was swollen. Like you could see swelling throughout my wrist. And I knew like there was nothing that I had done to my wrist, nothing, I mean, no activity, no injury, nothing even using it more than usual. And I looked at my wrist and I thought, oh, well, here I am. Like I there's some sort of stress going on in my life. And so I really sat back and reflected and sort of put all of my tools back in place. And it took maybe, I don't know, two weeks even for the swelling to go down.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

But basically the way it went down was not fearing the symptom and just little by little, you know, moving it as I could within my capability, kind of loose and easy, to send a simp a signal from my body up to my brain that it was okay. And then also working on the other tools of what was going on for me in my life, expressing my emotions, being kind to myself, you know, all of those things. Could I have taken an ibuprofen or you know, used ice to treat my body? Yeah, I could have done that, but I wouldn't, if I wasn't working on the other things of this signal that was being sent in the first place, I would never get there. Like maybe I would calm it down temporarily, but my brain would keep sending that signal. And I find that if we do those things too much, it actually tends to just reinforce to their brain that there is something that we need to protect. So I don't necessarily think it's bad to treat the body if it can help some, but I do think that it ultimately often ends up actually getting in the way of truly dialing down the fear in the unconscious brain and dialing down those neural circuits that are trying to protect us if we're focused too much on treating the body.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Okay, okay. So much in what you just said right there. So, first off, I appreciate you kind of sharing your your own personal experience. And I and I also appreciate the line, because I think it's sometimes a shocking line to people that you know, when people come to this neurophystic approach, they get the message of like, okay, we're eliminating your symptoms. And it's and it's such a an interesting thing because I personally, even a few times a year still, get a pain or symptom, right? And I think it's that can be shocking for people to hear from these experts that have healed their chronic symptoms that they're still getting symptoms sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah.

Fear, Desperation, And The Crash Cycle

SPEAKER_02 10:54

And I think it's so key that to understand, and I talk about this a lot with my with my clients in the sense of we're trying to eliminate the chronic part, not the pain, fatigue, other chronic symptom in and of itself.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Because yeah, kind of as you're saying, like when this is the way our brain shows us that we're feeling in danger, it's not like that's just going to be completely erased. Like this is Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

And again, I think that really understanding that it's just a normal process.

unknown 11:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

This is how we're designed. And so if we can be attuned to our body to listen to the signals in our body when there's still a whisper and we don't have to wait for our brain to be screaming at us in order to pay attention to the signal and then look at what our brain is trying to protect us from, then yeah, this the symptoms don't need to be huge and they don't need to be chronic.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Yes. And I think that's so key, right? Like we need to listen when the signal is starting to happen.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Which for a lot of people, when their symptoms become chronic and they're not aware of any of this stuff, as you said, you know, what do we attend to? We attend to all the physical treatments we can imagine. Yeah. Whether that's more minor things like an ibuprofen or something of that nature, or whether that's more extreme procedures or surgeries that people get done.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

And kind of like you said, that the more we do that, the more the brain learns, oh, there's something really wrong with the body and just keeps firing the signal off.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think like I, you know, I have patients that are, you know, have very severe chronic symptoms and really, really struggle with this concept. And maybe the symptoms get better for a while and then they come back and they, you know, email me and they're just with panic. And I say, look, it's okay that the symptom came back. That will happen for the rest of your life. Symptoms will pop up, but now you know to understand it. They don't have to be chronic. And some patients are like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I can't ever have this symptom again. It's too scary. I can't, I cannot have it. And again, and it's that fear, it's understandable, right?

unknown 13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

I have sympathy for that, but it's that is the fear that actually is driving the chronicity or or the underlying problem. And again, really understanding, like, and I think for you and I and people who have gone through this is one of the big things is learning not to fear a symptom when it comes, but really to lean into it and listen to it.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

I think, yeah, it's it's such an important thing because people get desperate and it makes sense because people are desperate and their main goal in life becomes I need to never have this again. But it's such a tricky thing, right? Because, you know, when when it's taken so much from us, I totally empathize how people get to this kind of desperate place. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But it's almost that desperation can can work against us.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

I think that's the thing of how people get better is understanding that the the that desperation is happening because our unconscious brain has learned because of whatever we've gone through in our life, that it needs to protect us from something. And often that's protecting us from feeling and expressing emotions.

What Triggers Hypervigilance And Symptom Imperative

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah. And it kind of leads into one of the questions I was going to ask you because a lot of times when you know I'm working with folks that have like chronic fatigue, like CFS, or a long COVID, they often get into this crisis zone when they feel a crash happen. And I guess we could define a crash by different things, but they feel really heavy, they feel shut down, they feel tired. Um, there might even be pain in the mix. Yeah. And I think that's so key to understand of what you just said of like, okay, there's there's all these reasons that our brain might be firing off this crash that someone's kind of experiencing, such as there may be emotions, dysregulation that needs to be felt and expressed, right? Do you find there's there's other things that would be important for people to know about of like why these crashes are happening for people with like CFS or long COVID? Like other causes?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

I think uh, you know, so if we think about that, our brain is perceiving danger, and so it's the warning signals it's sending, you know, creating our brain and sending to our body that's the root of the problem. So now what are the different kinds of things that our brain is perceiving as dangerous? And this is our survival brain. The danger part of our unconscious brain is the part of our brain that's doing this. And so, what does our survival brain care about? I mean, number one is certainly some sort of damage in our body. Like if there's a broken um bone or an infection or anemia or whatever it is in our body, then that is what our brain is responding to, some sort of structural change in our body.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

But with this whole neuroplastic symptoms, sort of mind-body work, is that the understanding is that the source of the problem is not the body. So with long COVID, chronic fatigue, it's the warning signals that are stuck in place. So some of those warning signals can be fear of damage in the body itself. And once you understand the science and really broadly look at the science that's known around chronic fatigue and long COVID, and really, again, understanding that these biochemical changes in the body, um, cytokinds, mitochondria, inflammation, those can be there, but the root of them is from the brain. Once you understand that, and you are breaking the sort of the fear symptom loop that your body is not damaged, that these are persistent symptoms that we don't need, that can be really helpful. And your brain can dial that down when we're not fearing the particular symptom in the body.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

But what I find is that if we don't go deeper and understand, well, why is your particular brain hypervigilant in the first place? Then the brain can often now make different symptoms, what Dr. Sarno called the symptom imperative. So if we're not feeling the fatigue, for instance, well, then our brain dials down the warning signal of fatigue, but now might make anxiety or even repetitive worry thoughts or dizziness. Or so I see this all the time is that in fact, I have a few patients that had very striking changes in their symptoms, you know, had pain in their head for months, one day turned off, and then all of a sudden got itching all over their body, or anxiety, or the worry thoughts. So that's where it's then looking at your whole life. And again, what did your brain learn throughout your life to make your particular brain hypervigilant? And that's where I think the deeper emotional work and processing can be in place. And a lot of my patients, it's very confusing understandably, where they're like, Well, I got a COVID infection and I got these persistent symptoms from the COVID infection. Like, what do you why does that even make sense that there's some repressed emotions or that you know, childhood trauma might have anything to do with having gotten this COVID infection? And again, it's really thinking about how our brain's warning system, it's like you know, a bathtub full of water if it's up here and our vigilance is this high because of what our brain has gone through, then the infection can be the last drop that makes it spill over. So kind of going back and doing the work to show the unconscious brain that it doesn't need to be so hyper-vigilant in general in our life at this point going forward can be really important.

New Symptoms, Old Pattern: Avoiding Detours

SPEAKER_02 19:18

That's such a key thing that you said there, because I, you know, we've worked with so many people where there was an infection. There was like a something that set off their fatigue or such as the long COVID infection itself.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

And, you know, rightfully so, when people are new to this stuff, they're like, well, this doesn't make any sense. Like this infection set it off. But it's like that danger level throughout their life has risen and risen and risen. And then the infection is kind of like the spark that just set everything off. Yeah, right. Exactly. And yeah, it's so key because you know, we've worked with so many people where they're they're saying, Well, it doesn't make sense. Like the trauma happened 10, 15 years ago that I went through. Like, how is that affecting my nervous system now? And of course, we know that it affects the nervous system in the science, but it makes sense, it's confusing because it was like that trauma was so long ago. Like, what are we talking about here? You know, there are people that can heal using a very simplistic approach. Like we've seen that where they just they change their thoughts and beliefs about their body, they maybe do some somatic work with their pain, fatigue, different sensations, that peer level lowers about their symptom, and they're good to go.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

And I think people hear those success stories where that happened, and then they try to replicate doing the exact same thing. But it's so key to understand that, as you've said, there there can be all these danger signals that someone has gone through throughout their life, and then you know, they feel safer with their fatigue, and then another symptom pops up. Yeah, right. It can create a lot of confusion for people. But but I agree with you wholeheartedly in the sense that for a lot of people, there is that deeper work that needs to be done.

First Steps: From Ideas To Felt Proof

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah. And I think it's really important is that like for most people, it does take time. I mean, it took me like a couple of years, even. And um, and it's not necessarily easy. And I think that also some of the, you know, the simp the main symptoms may go away, but and then something else completely, entirely different pops up. What can happen that's ultimately not helpful for someone's life is that then they they attribute that other symptom to something physical and they don't understand, and there's some other name for it, or they um kind of go down this pathway of getting this other testing, or um, you know, and there's some other name that they say, oh, well, this thing over here is a physical problem. And it's such a different presentation, an entirely different symptom. People don't understand that it's actually the same. Root as the fatigue or the dizziness or the thoughts or whatever because now it's a GI symptom, or now it's itching, or a skin rash, or something that's so different, but again, really understanding that it's our brain signaling system and our nervous system that is the root of these things. And certainly any new symptom is important to get checked out, no doubt. And you know, make sure that it it isn't something structurally going on. But I see very frequently that new symptoms being attributed to something structural in the body that um that it's really actually mind, body, or neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Yeah. Yeah, this part gets so complicated for people, right? Because you know, that that understanding that when brain and nervous system sensitization take place, essentially any symptom is possible, right? Yeah, right. Any symptom, any sensation is taking place. Um I've heard many people talk about this, even um Dr. Schubner, I've heard him talk about this lots, right? Like any symptom becomes possible. But and and that's you know, that's so easy for us to say, but when you're experiencing, oh, you had like debilitating fatigue, that went away, and now you have shoulder pain. It there's such a dis I remember when I went through it with my own pain, there's such a disconnect, right? Of like it's a different place, it's a completely different sensation, like maybe there's something wrong. And yeah, yeah, and it's just like how far down that path of physical assessments and treatments does someone go. Yeah, because as we've both seen, people go way too far in that direction. And it just delays everything.

Traits, Emotions, And Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Um there's nothing to feel bad about. Like our brains are designed to protect us of from physical injury, and so the automatic response of some new symptom in our body for everyone, I would say, Dr. Schubiner, even himself, and myself, probably you, the automatic response is what's wrong with my body? And that's okay. You should have that, right? Like I had some back pain that came out like out of the blue on a Sunday, I don't know, 10 months ago, eight months ago, whatever. And I thought, oh my gosh, what did I do to my back? And like I, you know, I spent a fair amount of time in my brain thinking, gosh, did I did I lift something? Did I exercise too much? Did I, you know, this, that, and you know, I really sort of went down the list for a little bit, half an hour probably. And I thought, no, I did not do anything. I didn't, I hadn't even exercised that week that weekend. And then I thought, oh, geez, okay, what happened, what went on for me in in my life this weekend? And there was something that I was irritated about my husband the day before. Wasn't even that big a deal. And I thought, oh my gosh, is that really what this is? Because I didn't consciously really feel irritated with him, like whatever, the weekend was fine. Let out my emotions by myself at night, and then my back pain was gone the next day. But again, that automatic response to our symptoms in our body, that there's something wrong in our body is okay. Absolutely. And for everybody, that is going to be our automatic response. But now that we knew this, we have this new science and we have this new lens, then we can really pause, step back, and really assess the whole situation to see, you know, how we can get to the root of things the best.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

And I appreciate sharing that story. Um, because you're right, people get really critical of themselves of like, oh, I went too far down the physical route again, like it, my symptom tricked me again, or however they want to word it. But you know, and and as you share your story, I was thinking, you know, over the Christmas holidays, I had back pain for like maybe I don't know, it wasn't that long, like maybe a day and a half, three days. And my first thought was, you know, did I tweak something in my workout the day before?

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

You know, when you and I, this is what we literally talk about all day. And like you couldn't get more consumed by this work than probably um, you know, yourself or myself. So it's just so important for people to understand that that is the automatic biological instinct.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

And it's and it's okay to get things checked out, of course, to make sure you're safe. But then it's coming back to this approach because symptoms do move around. And especially when you include symptoms like fatigue and long COVID, there's so many varieties of symptoms that happen. I've seen that with people where they have great heaviness and exhaustion in their body, and then that goes away and they have like debilitating brain thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

You know, when you're working with people, I'm curious to know, is there, is there general, like if someone's coming into your office with, you know, chronic fatigue, long COVID, like what would be the the typical beginning strategies or practices that you would you would have someone begin this journey with?

Dr. Kennedy’s Services And Course

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Well, I mean, first of all, I really give a lot of time to hear someone's whole story and really hear everything about what they've been through and then also what they believe about what's going on for them. And I think it's a really important starting point. Um, and once we've gone through all of that and you know, discussed the science, I think it's really important for people to feel this in their own body. And I think that's such a key piece because it just understanding it intellectually is an important starting point for sure. But we're not going to make changes until we experience in our body sort of the proof that this is actually the case. And so often, you know, even doing like a what I call a body conversation of checking in with our body, of taking our awareness into noticing the sensations in our body, and then visualizing different um situations, visualizing, you know, the scariest thing that we could possibly do in that moment, you know, in terms of our symptoms, and just notice any changes in our body. And sometimes there's changes, sometimes there's not, often there are. And um, often there's um some shifting or increase of the symptoms. Again, there isn't always, um, but noticing those changes. It's not like the somatic piece also is not just about calming our body or calming our nervous system, right? Or and so if we're just looking at the somatic piece, like in our body, of like sort of relaxation or meditation or breathing or movement or yoga or something like that, like, yeah, that's helpful, that's important. But again, I think what's the key is really understanding what is our survival brain trying to protect us from. And often that is fear of the symptoms itself that our body is damaged, repressed emotions, personality traits of what our brain learned keeps us safe, being high achieving, hard on ourselves, being perfectionist, needing control, being a people pleaser, all of which I have. And I think also our often people have a false negative core belief that we're not unconditionally lovable and worthy, which then gets in the way of that self-compassion. And I find that often is the last piece to go. It was for me, it was for a lot of my patients, is that this just constant internal chatter of being hard on ourself. And that can even be hard on ourself, but oh my gosh, my symptoms are not better yet. Everybody else is better, I'm not better. And it's even that internal chatter that can be part of what is driving that danger signal. So again, really understanding what our brain is trying to protect us from, um, I find is really the key piece ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Yeah. Again, I appreciate so much the wisdom you shared with with the listeners today. Um, you know, I want to give you a little bit of space to just talk about, you know, what service services you're currently offering me and how people can kind of learn about the work you're doing.

Closing And Social Links

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah, for sure. Well, I um so I see people one-on-one as a physician, and I you know, technically work as a coach outside of Oregon where I'm located in Portland, Oregon. Um, and I have a team, a great team of a coach, Isabel Benatar, and a um physical therapist who does fantastic work, um, Nita Tansensen. And we kind of all we work collaboratively with our clients and patients. And um and I do work and I work mainly over Zoom with people, um, although I do see people in person in Portland if they're here. Um, and I am in the middle of um creating a course. I've I taught I've taught a course in this for quite a few years, and so I'm in the middle of turning that into sort of an online um self-study course that's gonna come out in a couple of uh months. And um, and I'm hoping for you know a lot of the different world to be able to use this information um again from a physician's perspective, because I think there's um, you know, unfortunately not a lot of physicians that know about this. Um, and so kind of the really the science part of it um and the tools from that perspective is uh is coming out soon.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Wonderful. Well, that's very exciting, very cool. So I will uh for for the viewers and listeners, I'm going to put the links uh for your clinic and and any services in the description of this podcast episode so people can uh learn more about your services there. But again, thank you, thank you so much for for being on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, my pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah, and uh thank you everyone for listening, and I will talk to you next week. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

We wish you all healing.