Why Do Women Experience More Chronic Pain & Symptoms?

The rules many women are handed... be agreeable, don’t be too much, handle everything... aren’t just exhausting. They reshape the nervous system’s sense of safety and can wire the body for neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

We connect the dots between culture, trauma, medical minimization, and neuroplastic pain/symptoms, and consider how small steps can lead women to recover voice and rebuild fair systems at home and work.

Neuroplastic pain and symptoms are 100% real, but rather than being a result of physical pathology, they are generated by a sensitized brain and nervous system. We explore how social expectations can silence anger and need, driving the system into chronic fight, flight, fawn or freeze/shutdown. You’ll hear why feeling more deeply and speaking more clearly can actually reduce pain sensitivity, and how small exposures (like one direct request, one honest journal entry, or one boundary) can restore a sense of safety.

If you’ve ever felt “too much,” carried guilt for feeling like you can't handle it all, or wondered why your symptoms spike when you swallow your truth, this conversation offers answers.

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married!

In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were neuroplastic, not structural. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make changes in your life and health!

The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/

Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, an in-depth online course that provides a step-by-step process for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com

Check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ

And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy

Disclaimer: The information provided on this podcast is for general in...

Transcript

Welcome And Resources

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Mind Body Couple podcast. I'm Tanner Murtaugh and I'm Ann Hampson.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapy.ca.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Or purchase our online course at embodycommunity.com to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools, and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. Hi everyone.

Why Focus On Women’s Pain

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Welcome back. Mm-hmm. It's been a little while since we've recorded a podcast. We're recording them every two weeks now. We are. Feels a bit weird being back in this space, but good.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, it's it's a little bit more spaced out while we work on our big project. Our special project. Our special project.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

That we know is a very good project that we hope all of you will love.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

We have a really great topic today, and this is one that's really important to my heart, which I think will become evident when I say what it is. Um we want to talk about women and chronic pain and symptoms, specifically those that are neuroplastic in nature. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah. To be honest, what it's shown, I was reading a bit before this, is just that most conditions, women, chronic conditions, women experience more of.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

So this is a real thing. And I even think about our therapy clients. I would say it's probably 70, 75% of my caseload is made up of women.

Neuroplastic Pain And Safety

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Mm-hmm. And and there could be reasons for that. Like I think women maybe naturally access therapy more. Like there's some of those reasons too. But you're right. Most of my caseload is made up of women. And men, you're valuable in this discussion as well. Yes. I wanted Tanner's nodding and smiling. I want to say that. But that's right. We have a lot of women clients, and there's something unique about being women with chronic pain and symptoms. I wanted to talk about this because I'm very passionate about it, because I think we need to spend time there and we need to highlight it. I have a list that I'm pulling up on my phone here. Give me a minute. And it talks about themes that I hear from women a lot. So I want to read out that list. I think it's important that we talk about it. One, my needs are pit last. I need to do everything for everyone. There is no time for me. I can't be too much. I don't know if you hear that one a lot, Tanner, but that is a common thing I hear from women. I can't share my voice. I shouldn't do that. Or I should do that. Is that something you hear a lot?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

There's a couple more I want to throw out there. I need to be good at parenting, work, social life. I need to be good at it all. And I know if you're a woman listening to this, I want you to see if any of this resonates with you. And I'm sure something on that list probably does.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

It's a really well-written list of just like the different messaging that so many of the women I work with are experiencing. And as we know around chronic pain, chronic symptoms, like many forms of chronic pain and symptoms are neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

And what this means is your brain and nervous system is producing the sensations, even though your body's actually completely okay. Right. What came to mind as you were reading that list that relates to why neuroplastic pain occurs is that there's a lack of a sense of safety. There's a lack of a sense of safety overall.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Well, and we talk about that a lot. And I think we see this with all our clients, whether they're young, old, men, or women, this lack of sense of safety. There's something I want to say unique for a woman with that lack of sense of safety. And we can talk about maybe society, culture, um, you know, not feeling valued or or heard just um in our life and with our peers, right? And so there's that piece too. But we need, we need to take that into account of that lack of sense of safety for a woman that they can feel really deep in their bodies.

Silenced Emotions And “Too Much”

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, it's it comes down to these like social expectations that are unique for women and the expectations that are placed upon them. And and how not just the expectations placed upon them, but as you were kind of reading that, how they're expected to behave. Which is, you know, always heartbreaking when I'm hearing that from people, right? Like a a really common way neuroplastic pain occurs is there's a lack of expression of feelings. And that's such a message that you were kind of reading out there that the women experience, right? Of like, oh, don't don't express your feelings, you're too much.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Um stay, stay quiet, don't get angry.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

That idea of like, oh, I'm too much. I've heard that multiple times from different women. Um, so it's definitely a thing of like, I don't want to be too much. People are the same, I'm too much, I'm scared to be too much, is this kind of underlying theme, even if people aren't putting that together. Yeah, I think. Um, and it is this idea that women I think have experienced in society of like, oh, this woman is, you know, angry or enraged or talking about her needs, she's too much. I think about women in the medical system and they're accessing support, there's often this veil, like and not all the time, but through history of like, oh, this woman is just, you know, it's hysteria. She's too much. And this has been in our culture for such a long time. And I think even if cognitively we believe, you know, our world is safe and we have, you know, a safe family unit and a safe partner, and there's still this internal belief that I think women have of like, oh, but I can't be too much. Even though I'm getting permission, I still, I still have to, I still have to be careful of that.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, it's this unfortunate cultural narrative that has just seeped in. Like, I think about men, and again, I know there's gender can be fluid here, but when we talk about men, there is also like an expectation, especially in like a heterosexual relationship, of like my partner needs to behave this way. She needs to do this. Uh if she doesn't do that, that's not acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

And what's it like saying that, Tanner? Because I feel like this is a bit of a vulnerable statement.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, like I think it's and I think you know, there's so many men out there that are very caring and supportive, but the reality is like that narrative like has seeped into them for so long that, you know, even I've experienced it. I feel like I'm pretty progressive in the sense of like understanding our relationship needs to be balanced, it needs to be fair, there needs to be the same expectations placed on one another. But there have been many times in a relationship where all of a sudden in my mind I'm angry because you're not behaving a certain way. Do you get the thing? Like, like logically, if I paused for a second, I could logically be like, that is ridiculous. You're being ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

And I'm so glad you said that, because that can be put you in a bit of a vulnerable position. So we need to like applaud Tanner there. Um, good for you, right? Because it it can be hard to acknowledge that, yeah, we can still fall into this, even though we're educated and we have all the information and you know, we support everyone's rights and stuff like that, that this can still happen.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yes. I think it's just been such a standard of this is how women should behave for so long that even if people can stop and be like, okay, that standard's ridiculous. Like, that's not fair. It's like we just unconsciously behave in that way. And it's hard. It's hard to pull away from that. And I and I want to loop back to the thing that you said that I think is so important of just around like medical treatments.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah. Why is the why do you think we should highlight that?

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Because I agree. Well, you know, it kind of comes down to this understanding of like, you know, yes, women experience more chronic pain and symptoms. We know that. We also know women experience double or more than double in terms of trauma.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

That's just the reality. And we also know that trauma and chronic symptoms are just unfortunately best friends.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yes. And so why maybe we should say I I know a lot of our listeners will, but maybe explain a little bit why they're best friends.

Medical Dismissal And Trauma

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Well, as we understand, many forms of chronic pain are neuroplastic. And they're occurring because your nervous system is stuck basically in danger mode, in dysregulation. And trauma can be such a dysregulating factor, even if it happened 20 years ago. Yes. It keeps us in fight, flight, fawn, freeze shutdown. And so, because of that, because of the danger that trauma can cause us to live in years later, it makes people much more likely to develop chronic pain and symptoms. Yes. And so that's the connection. And and the unfortunate truth is women experience more trauma. So as a result, in my opinion, they're experiencing more chronic pain and symptoms. But I the reason I was talking about like the medical experiences is I have heard stories of women that I work with sharing how they have been treated by medical providers in this day and age. And it is awful.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

What's it like to hear that as a therapist, Tanner? And interestingly, as a male therapist as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah, it's it's such a difficult thing because I think the reality is it does occur. And again, I'm not saying this as like, oh, men aren't being mistreated too, because I've worked with men where they do have medical trauma from from stigma or treatments or different things. Um, but historically women have been treated worse in the medical system. And that's that's painful because I know you and I we're so we're so thoughtful and understanding when we're working with someone. I'm often thinking about how I'm interacting with that person, how what I'm saying or my facial expressions is affecting that person. But unfortunately, lots of medical providers don't think about it in that way. And so then you get this medical trauma or um medical overwhelming events taking place, and that that is gonna increase chronic pain and symptoms, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Well, definitely. And it's this common theme of feeling dismissed, dismissed by providers, and I think both men and women share that with us. Um, but women talk a lot about that of feeling dismissed, feeling not heard, kind of being chucked up to like a just a woman thing. Um, and so it doesn't need as much attention. We know historically in research as well, there's way less research around women's mental health. So that's a big, or sorry, women's health in general, mental and physical health. And so that's a big piece of the pie as well. But yeah, often when clients get to us, they feel dismissed, they feel unheard. There's this long line of medical trauma or not feeling heard or not feeling respected. Yeah. And a lot of the work I'm doing with clients is kind of unpacking that and so processing that piece, giving voice to that. And I think about that list I read of all these beliefs that women I meet with carry, and it's often this kind of voice that's been silenced. And so a lot of the work I'm doing with women is allowing them to have this voice validating their experience when often they don't feel validated in so many areas, or they're also dismissing their experience as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah. Well, I think you you hit on such an important piece of part of the solution to neuroplastic pain and symptoms. And this goes back to some of the work of Dr. John Sarno and some of the work of Dr. Howard Schubner. Um two people I have deep respect for, and a big part of what they would get people to do is find their voice. Is, you know, and that may start with journaling, but also expressing outwardly in a more unfiltered way how you actually feel about something. Which can be really scary for a lot of people. Absolutely. But I think that's such an important piece because you know, all this messaging of, you know, just be quiet, just be good, uh, don't say anything, like that will keep us in chronic pain and symptoms. And the research shows if you can feel more deeply, express more fully, that pain sensitivity goes down.

Finding Voice And Expression

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Yeah. Yep. Explaining that to people is important. And so I hope if you're listening to this podcast, we're explaining that a little bit of why it's important to do that. Um, but starting small with starting to kind of honor your needs, validate, share your voice, kind of shift that narrative is important because there's exposure to all of that. It's really uncomfortable. Oh, yeah. It doesn't feel easy. And then there's a piece of us that um, again, this idea of, well, I shouldn't be this way. So it's changing beliefs of it, which is tricky.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Yeah. I think you hit on so many important pieces. It's more than just the feeling and expressing of emotion. It's honoring your values and needs, it's learning to set boundaries, learning to say no. Like it's starting to live differently, starting to live in a way that feels more authentic to that individual.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yeah. Well, and we know in treating chronic pain and symptoms that are neuroplastic, honoring and tapping into your authentic self is such a big piece of it. I think I talked about that with many people that I work with.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah. No, I do think it's uh it's important and it's so difficult because as you're talking about the the social expectations that are placed on women. And it's scary, right? Like I'm just thinking of people I've asked that to do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

That's uncomfortable because reaction to remember some of that.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

It's they're terrified because they're they're going against how they've been told to behave for so long. So I'm always careful when I'm talking to women about this because you know, we're we're asking people to go in the opposite direction of a cultural norm, which the rest of the people in that culture aren't gonna like very much at first as you do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Can you describe what that looks like maybe for women in the family system when they're trying to shift maybe that they go against that norm and what that looks like as a family?

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah, I'll I'll think of an example here. Um, a simple one. Um things that we've actually talked about in our relationship quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

We can also talk about that too.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

You always love that. Uh I I think one thing that I'll notice is that many of the women that I work with, they are working full-time, uh, like their partner, but then they're expected to come home. And again, this is for a heterosexual relationship, but the male does significantly less at home than their husband, and they do significantly more. Right. Right is the standard thing that we've known is unfair for for so long. They're doing just as much work at work, and it's like at home they're doing way more.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah, and one thing I want to highlight here, and this might not be true for all families, but I think I I want to validate both sides of the partnership because I don't think always it's a conscious thing of like, oh, my wife's gonna do it all, and like people are trying to work together, but naturally someone takes more of the role. And I don't know for you guys listening, it's very common now in social media to talk about like the experience of the primary caregiver and really start to highlight what that's like for the person. And so there's a lot of discourse about this going on, but that's right. Often the woman is working as well and doing more of the child care, so their load is super high.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah, like there's so much pressure. And so an exposure to starting to shift that, shift the behaviors of how the family system is working at home is like talking to their husband and setting up this situation where it can be even or at least closer to even of like, hey, how do we break up breaks? Like breaks from household tasks and breaks from kids if you have kids, where we're each getting somewhat equal time to hang out, do the things that we love, do our hobbies.

Boundaries, Values, And No

SPEAKER_01 18:19

How has this felt for you, Tanner, in our negotiations around this? Because we've spent years trying to discuss this openly, um, figure out something that works for us. And it's been challenging.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah, we're always trying to, of course, we're both therapists, so we're communicating a lot, maybe a little too much sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

But we're therapizing ourselves as we're doing it. Therapizing.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

It's not always good. Therapizing each other. Well, I think over the years we've gotten closer to perfecting this for us, without a doubt. But it took me realizing that some of my emotions around you asking for a need to be met were not fair.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

It's not to, it's not, I'm not saying this in a way of, oh, I need to invalidate my emotions. It's like, okay, like I'm feeling angry that Ann's asking for a break this Tuesday. Um, but it's allowing myself to feel that, but then also step out of that and be like, okay, like, let's let's break down. Okay, what are the rules and responsibilities we're both doing this week? Oh yeah, Anne is working with, you know, four more clients this week than normal. Yeah, I think we do need to like shift this up. So it's interesting because it takes a difference of like feeling, but then also logically coming to understand, hey, like this is an equal partnership. It's just really difficult because, you know, as women do this, it's it's exposure for them, asking for what they need, but it's also exposure to their partner.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Because they need to adjust to, oh, this is a new norm. Um, this like underlying cultural narrative is not fair that I've been following. And to give men credit in the relationship, I think sometimes it's a very unconscious. Yes. Like, yes, this is just this is what my parents did, this is what we're doing, right? Right. Um, but I do think, you know, in the relationship, there needs to be thoughtfulness. There needs to be talking this through and figuring out, hey, how can we lower the pressure in both of our lives and make breaks? So that's an exposure activity of like you're giving exposure to asking what you need, to getting the time you you want so you can do things that you value outside of all the household pressures.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

For sure. And and we know this pressure and intensity is a big piece that can keep chronic pain and symptoms rolling. And that's what I hear a lot from women of feeling this pressure, feeling on edge all the time, on alert, always doing everything all the time, like this chronic stress. And so this example that we just shared, I think you're right, it's about maybe both parties in the household and relationship trying to relieve the pressure and acknowledging that that's there. Something I talk with women a lot about too is the guilt around asking. So that's another piece of it. Often I'm working with clients, and there's this realization, yes, I need to honor my needs. I want to validate it, I need to ask for help, um, I need to make time for me. But there's often this guilt, and that's back to this idea of I shouldn't do that. And that can be a big, big block often and and very difficult.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah. Yeah, it's like the guilt and sometimes even goes darker into shame.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

That that prevents this. And this stuff is so difficult. Because as you're explaining, you know, in this example, you know, women are feeling so much pressure and so much chronic stress.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

And it's like, okay, is there some solutions to this? Sure. Are they need to tidy? No, probably not. But there are solutions. There are things they can do. But those things also create stress at the beginning. Like making changes in the way that you're living life, setting boundaries with people, starting to express how you actually feel. Like those are scary things for anyone to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah. Yeah. And so a first starting place is starting to, you know, think about this podcast. If you're listening, do you relate to some of the stuff that we're talking about? Do you relate to kind of not having, not feeling hurt or having a voice? Um, maybe some of the thinking of I should, I shouldn't be, I'm too much. How much of that resonates with you? And then understanding, does this connect to my chronic pain and symptoms? Does this connect to me being always in this fight or flight nervous distance state? Or for some women, I think this very shut down state of like just feeling really low, um, a big fatigue going on as well. And so having a reflection on how much of this is connected.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah. Well, I think that's the starting place. It's just we're hoping this podcast brings awareness.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

You know, to what are, in our approach, we call them sensitization factors, right? These are factors, basically, you think about them like danger factors. They're factors that increase the sense of danger that will sensitize your brain and nervous system, producing chronic symptoms long term. It's like there's all these different sensitization factors that are taking place. And we talked about a lot of them today. We talked about the sensitization factors of social expectations.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Uh, the sensitization factors of lack of self-expression, of trauma, medical trauma. It's so important for people to have an awareness of what are the sensitization factors because that's going to help direct, okay, what healing work do I need to be doing then?

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I want to just kind of step back for one minute, because I before we enter podcast tenor, I think we need to do um a nod to women that experience endometriosis and conditions like that, because we didn't really speak about that. Um, but I think it's important to mention that in a podcast like this, and how often women don't feel heard um with that kind of condition and experience as well. And so because there needs to be validation to that experience, and there often is not. So I just wanted to put that in there because we didn't mention it of how important um validation around that type of experience and kidition is needed.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yep. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. Well, I hope everyone found this podcast episode.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

We kind of made it a bit more of a discussion, but um an awareness, but um, we think it's really important and something to think about.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah. Well, thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Talk to you next time. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

We wish you all he's a little bit.