How to Find The Right Therapist for Chronic Pain & Symptom Recovery

If you're using a mind-body approach to heal your chronic pain/symptoms, the right therapist is a game-changer.

Tanner sits down with fellow chronic pain psychotherapist, Paul LePointe, to discuss different therapy approaches and styles. Tanner and Paul discuss their practice, help you understand your options, and provide practical ideas on how to find the right therapist for you.

Tanner and Paul both experienced chronic, debilitating neuroplastic pain - and recovered! They now provide 1-on-1 therapy at Pain Psychotherapy Canada.

Tanner and Paul explore:

• Key questions to ask when you're consulting with a potential new therapist
• How therapist style and approach differences can shape outcomes
• Why people can still feel stuck, even with a skilled therapist

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married!

In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were neuroplastic, not structural. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make changes in your life and health!

The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/

Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, an in-depth online course that provides a step-by-step process for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com

Check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ

And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy

Disclaimer: The information provided on this podcast is for general in...

Transcript

Welcome And Support Options

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Mind Body Couple podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

I'm Tanda Murton.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

And I'm Anne Hampson.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapy.ca.

The Big Question About Therapist Fit

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Or purchase our online course at embodycommunity.com to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools, and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. On today's episode, we are answering a question that we get asked by clients all the time. How do I find the right therapist for my chronic pain and symptoms? So today we are going to be talking about why sometimes therapy doesn't work to reduce chronic pain and symptoms, what qualities and trainings your therapist should have, and what questions you need to be asking a therapist before beginning to work with them. Now, on today's episode, I have a special guest. I am with Paul LePointe, who is one of the wonderful therapists at our clinic. And he has extensive experience treating chronic pain and symptoms. So welcome, Paul. Yeah, thanks, Tanner. Good to be uh back on the uh back on it with you again. I know. We uh we did an episode a year and a half ago. I think so, yeah. It's a while back. And me and Paul are like best buddies. We just we we took the somatic experiencing uh therapy trainings together, and that was three years of our life.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Yeah, yeah, and and as it progressed, we kind of found all these connections that each of us had. It was kind of bizarre. Like we were at some airport and we're like, oh, what this would be this is the same, this is the same, like a lot of shared experiences.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

A lot of shared experiences, and we both, for the listeners, we both recovered from uh chronic pain. So we have that in common. And when we think about this, it's it's interesting because as therapists, I think you and I share a lot of similarities, but there's also differences in the way that we practice. And I think that's so key for you know the listeners to understand that, like, you know, when you go to therapy, it's not like that's and you see one therapist, that's not going to be the one experience that you get. Like therapists are wildly different compared to each other.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah, I'm even thinking uh right in the moment of like having teachers throughout school. Like you look back at some teachers and you probably really connected with some, and others were like, that was a nightmare of being in that class, right? So I think finding the right fit for you is pretty essential.

Training That Matters For Pain

SPEAKER_02 3:21

I think it is, and you don't want to give up on it. Like if you have a bad experience with a therapist, you want to keep looking. And in today's episode, we're gonna really support people in their quest, their search to find the right therapist for their chronic pain and symptoms. So let's just start off by talking about what qualities or training should people look for in a therapist for neuroplastic symptoms?

SPEAKER_01 3:50

I always think of the big two, right? So uh pain reprocessing therapy is kind of the gold standard for neuroplastic pain. Absolutely. And then um uh from there, you know, I kind of look at some other ones as well. So that would I'd say would be the essential one. But for others, uh looking at the role the emotions play with emotional awareness and expression therapy. Yep. Um once you get past that, though, there's other therapies that are really connected to this work. Uh often therapies borrow from each other a lot, right? So other ones I would think of are I know some of the therapists uh use EMDR, um, ACT is another one, acceptance and commitment therapy, where I remember doing the training, they're like, yes, this can be, there's evidence that supports it is good for pain, but don't tell your clients that.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Where these other therapies like PRT, they're like, we're telling people uh somatic experiencing is another, yeah. You know, that was a three-year or three-year uh experience for us. And and in there, it's not as much about you know, informing people that this could change symptoms, where our work that's that's our bread and butter. That's what we're trying to communicate to people. It's that buy-in that this is possible.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

And that's it. Like, I there's so many things you said there. I think the first thing for people to understand is when someone comes out with a brand new therapy model. It's not brand new. Yeah, totally. It's and I'm I'm not saying that to like disrespect the people that created it. I don't mean it like that. I just mean that they borrowed and they pulled and they repackaged, repackaged and changed things, yeah. Which is great. Like that's how we find more and more effective therapies. But you're right. I think you know, when it comes to okay, what trainings should the therapist have that you're looking at? PRT for sure, pain reprocessing therapy, emotional awareness and expression therapy can be a great benefit. But you're right, like lots of people at our clinic, they're pulling from different things. Like you and I pull from somatic experiencing a lot. Somatic experiencing alone, I don't think is fully going to heal someone's pain or symptoms. And I think the missing piece that I talk about is the neuroscience of chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Absolutely. If you don't have this awareness or belief that the symptoms could improve, you can do the best therapy in the world and for sure process trauma or work on boundaries or whatever, you know, the things that you're hoping to work on sees improvements there. But if you don't have that knowledge that my symptoms could actually get better, it's something's missing there.

What Neuroplastic Symptoms Really Mean

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Yeah. And and I'll backtrack for the newer listeners for a second, because you know, me and Paul are sitting here saying, okay, hey, like psychotherapy, this can really impact your chronic pain and symptoms. And for some people, that's a brand new idea. They're they're like, what the heck are you talking about? Because we live in this very medicalized society. So people just believe, okay, if I want to heal my pain or physical symptoms, I need to do all these different physical assessments and treatments. And unfortunately, as we know, many forms of chronic pain are actually neuroplastic and they're not going to respond to physical treatments. And so, just as a definition for the new people around neuroplastic symptoms, with neuroplastic pain and symptoms, there is no damage or disease in your body that is causing the symptoms. The symptoms are occurring due to brain and nervous system processes. And essentially, when your brain and nervous system gets stuck in this heightened state of danger, it's going to start producing over time pain and physical symptoms. And for people that are new to that, I want to be clear, they're very real. Because I we get asked that a lot of like, are you calling my pain fake? Yeah. And it's very real. Uh brain scans show this. It's just as a result of many forms of chronic pain being neuroplastic, all the treatments we just discussed are the solution. I think it can bring a beam of hope for people to understand that.

unknown 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

And I almost wonder if it's shifting too, right? When I first started doing this work, I was uh working with the government and through a pain clinic there. And most of my time was spent uh doing what you were just talking about, right? Creating this possibility that, yeah, maybe there's uh with the absolute real symptoms you have, there's a possibility we could start to shift them and decrease them. Most of my time is spent doing that. Now what I'm starting to see is uh sometimes when somebody's new to it, I'm still going in with the mindset, okay, I'm, you know, um I have to introduce this idea carefully and gently. And people are like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So I'm seeing a bit of a shift. I don't know if it's just in my own experience, but that shift seems to be taking place.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

There is a shift for sure, because you've been working at the clinic for three and three and a half years now. And it was different back then. Yeah. Like I think there's so much knowledge and media coverage now. So it's true, like the new people coming to see us, they understand enough to be like, oh, this is the solution. I'm coming to therapy to reduce or eliminate my chronic symptoms. Like that's why I'm here, where we'd have to convince people a lot of the time years back. So there is this shift, but I think when we talk about, okay, if you're looking for a therapist, I think, yeah, you want the right trainings, but you want your therapist to very clearly understand neuroplastic symptoms and that we're doing the treatments long term to reduce the chronic symptoms. Yeah. Because like if they lack the neuroscience and the understanding, I've seen it where people have gone to therapists and and unfortunately it doesn't go well. And again, I'm not speaking ill about therapists, it's just they didn't have the knowledge base. You also get therapists that don't buy into anything that me and Paul are saying right now. Yeah, they may be listening to this podcast swearing at us right now. Like they like they don't.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yeah. And and and again, the the other side I would present is like when we were in that somatic experience, you know, it was a massive, ended up being a really massive group by the fire, third year, and people were coming up to us often asking about the type of work we do. It's um, I think you're right, there's still some therapists who would be like, that is like that's beyond believable. Uh and then others who have like had some experience or heard from their patients or other people, it's uh um, we're on the leading edge of this. I keep reminding myself of that, right? When there's when there's any of that kind of backlash against like you, you know, we should be focused on coping as opposed to improving symptoms, which is traditionally the way you know pain management is done in in mental therapy. And uh, and because we're on the leading edge of this work, is it still it's it's a it's a transition period, I think that's still still happening.

When Clinicians Kill Hope

SPEAKER_02 10:59

It is, and you and you see it all the time. I I'll tell you a story. This is a this is a rough story. I can laugh about it now, but it was not a great moment. Um so this was like when I had pain. So we're talking probably two and a half years into pain. So I was like not in a great place. I was, you know, I was I was struggling, and I was going to see a mental health therapist, and I saw them for quite a while, and I remember closer to the end of when I was meeting with them because I'd probably met with them for a year, and I was starting to learn about some of his mind-body stuff. I was starting to learn about the neuroscience of chronic symptoms. I read uh Dr. Sarno's and Dr. Schubner's book, and I remember talking about it very excitedly, and they were like, oh, that's complete BS. Like they they shut it down. It was an interesting move as a therapist, unfortunately, where it was shut down. And you know, I think it's so important for us as therapists to understand the power in our words because people are coming to us, they're being vulnerable, they're they're they're opening up emotionally. And as therapists, yeah, like we are the experts in the room to some capacity. And that took me a long time. Like it took me a few months to like recover from that and keep moving.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah. So such a common story, right? Like, yeah, so sometimes mental therapists, sometimes other practitioners, right? I remember I saw a podiatrist who was working on my feet and he's and finally just said, Well, this is just something you're gonna have to live with the rest of your life. And I was like, what? I'm gonna be in this amount of pain where I have to be like using crutches and not being able to walk. Like it's those messages can be so influential. And um as you as you were sharing your story, it made me think so many times clients come to me with some things I probably don't subscribe to, right? Like some types of treatment that would fall outside of some evidence-based work. And um, you know, I would I I I'm still honest about it. I'm like, well, that's things I don't you don't know much about that area. And yeah, um, but what I do know is this, right? So not shutting down people when they're building hope about something, right? I still want to make sure there's um the work we're doing is in line with our models, but yeah, that openness I think is important too.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

It's like, yeah, sure, you need your therapist to have the right training, but you also need them to believe in it and believe in the treatment.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Because if those things aren't met, it's gonna be a really bumpy therapy experience.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Totally, right? And and um uh I think about kind of flexibility in there too, right? Of we're also open to the fact that it could be a mixture too, right? I keep reminding myself of that because when I first started this work, I was so gung-ho on neuroplastic symptoms, and you really do see them everywhere. Yeah. And when as soon as clients get bought in, then they're like, I'm seeing with this friend and that friend. And um, so so knowing that's that that there are these neuroplastic symptoms and some for some people, there's also a mixture of of some structural stuff too.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

No, I think that's an important piece because it's I think for so long early on in the movement, it was very much seen as black or white.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah.

Therapy Style That Fits Your Nervous System

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Um yeah, absolutely. Which again, I I get why a lot of people got there because you know, there was this idea of like you need to fully believe. But as we know now, like, I don't know, lots of my clients don't fully believe it at first. They're they're open enough, but you're right, some people have this mixture going on. But again, all the things we talked about, it's still important that your therapist understands. Um, we're not just managing and helping you cope with symptoms. It's like we're trying to reduce you know, all your symptoms if they're neuroplastic or the portion that is neuroplastic. Absolutely. The one thing that that I think about a lot when it comes to qualities people look for um is is almost like the style that fits the client's nervous system. So, you know, I I wrote down a few here because I think they're they're kind of interesting ones, and I'd be curious where you land on these ones compared to me. Yeah, me too. It's a fun little game, right? But you know, the first one, you know, when we talk about style, it's like we're not talking about the trait, the treatment that they're using or the model. Like we're talking about like every therapist has their own style with it. So the first thing is directive versus non-directive. Where are you landing?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

So uh I've shifted back and forth quite a bit. So I've been doing, I've been a mental health therapist now, I think, for about 11 years. And uh when I first started, I was probably the most non-directive person you can think of, right? I'd just be like fully client-led and just wherever that, you know, I'd I'd just kind of be there listening and validating and supporting. Uh and then as I came to this work, it really shifted me, especially the emotional awareness and expression therapy. That that piece there made me so much more directive.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Uh, and the feedback I got was not only the results that I that I found, but also the feedback is often clients were saying, I'm just not used to this. This is really helpful. Yeah. I'm just not used to, you know, the kind of it was still collaborative, but it was it was this uh we had a purpose.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

And uh and that doesn't fit for everybody though. No. So I had a few where they were like, oh, it's a little too much. And that's so so I I think I've kind of come more to this, this, this place of of coming in and out depending on the client, their nervous system. Uh it so much depends on what's in the room when you're working with someone. And and sometimes there's a place to move forward and sometimes there's a place to to give room.

unknown 16:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

How about you? What are you what's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Well, I I think you hit on a good point there that like, even though we're saying directive or not verse, you know, non-directive, obviously any therapist, any well-trained therapist is going to be somewhat flexible with the person. But for myself, like I'm so directive. Um and I actually on like when I do a free 20-minute consult with with new clients, I let them know that. Yeah, like I'm very structured. Um I'm very directive. I have certain things based on you know what they share in the first session. I have certain things being like, okay, this is the plan. Let's try this out and see what happens. Over the years, as we did more somatic experiencing, I became less directive. Um but I would still say I'm fairly directive. It's interesting because Anne, my my wife, as you know, but maybe not the listeners don't know, she's so non-directive. Like she is so flowy in her style. She's using all the treatments that we use, but it's very free-flowing. And for some clients, that works beautifully. Um, so it's just important to know that. I think the other thing is um, you know, talk-focused versus body focused is a big thing, right? Like, is your therapist more cognitively talky, or are they having you drop in your body and feel sensations? Like, where do where do you land on that one?

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Again, I think it's shifted over time and even shifts within sessions sometimes. Like, I do believe the somatic experiencing kind of idea that sometimes people just at first need to tell their story. Not always, but sometimes they often talk about the uh physiology or the um as opposed to the psychology, like what's happening in the body as opposed to always the story. Um, but through the training, like initially I thought they were saying, like, you never go to the story, and and that became flexible there too. Of yeah, sometimes people just need to tell the story first. And then um, usually I'm kind of going back and forth between the two, to be honest, is like, okay, there's a story here. Can we pause? Can we uh tap into the body? Again, it shifted over time, but uh now it's more of both, I think, for me. You're a bit of a mix.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah, I would say that I'm a mix as well. Um, like I do a lot of somatic work with people, but that being said, like with some clients, I've I've been more talk-focused. Uh, like if I really think about it. Um part of that's mean meeting the person where they're at. But I think having both is really key with this work, a lot of these therapy models, like there is body focus, there is focus on emotion, there is focus on nervous system. So I think like a pure talk cognitive, like I think you're getting closer to like CBT, which without the my body education within that, we know has poor outcomes for actually reducing pain and symptoms in comparison to pain reprocessing therapy or emotional awareness and expression therapy. So I would I would tell people like, yeah, like a lot of clients are more comfortable with the cognitive, but to kind of stretch and and start to lead into the somatic a bit, a bit at the very least.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Yeah, at the least, right? Because some people are uh again, I've I flex so much with that, but like the start it was all talk therapy when I first started my work. And then as I came into this work, it was I it became so much more somatic. But I do I I think the importance and and I think I shifted uh uh you know a while ago thinking, well, there is the role the mind is playing and there in how that impacts the body. And I think the combination of the two for me seems to seem to be a good fit as well.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yeah, yeah. Last one I want to talk about, different styles here. Uh reassuring versus challenging. I think I know where you land. I'm I'm curious. Like you you guess me and I'll guess you. I think I think you're more challenging. Not that you're not reassuring. I just think I think you're more of a challenging therapist. Okay, well, I'll I'll come back to that.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

For for you, I I would say challenging for sure. Okay, okay. Am I on am I right?

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yeah, so for me, like challenge and I'm careful with the word challenging because people are probably like, you know, Paul, Paul and Tanner are coming to groups, blazing. You know, like that's not that's not what we mean, but I just mean like I want to push clients to stretch and to to do a bit more or lean into the emotion a bit more where they can tolerate it, um, or learn to track their pain and symptoms. Like I want to push a bit, but that being said, I've become more flexible over time. So there's clients that do need a lot of validation and reassurance and more of like a compassion, kind of a softer, compassionate feel. I've had to work on that personally. Um, I'm good at that, but it's not naturally where I probably spend as much time. But there are clients where I do that. You know, it's understanding that. What about you? Was I was I accurate?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

I uh it's hard to say because I would say uh, as my personality style. I for sure am like fallen to support it, right? I want people to feel better. I want them to, you know, to be that listening ear. I want them to be feel validated. So I'm very much like drawn to that personality style-wise. But then when we went through emotional awareness and expression therapy, and this is something I often tell clients on the first uh first session, but they I know you know what I'm about to say here, but they look at what is the most impactful thing of therapy. Yeah. And everybody says, oh yeah, it's the relationship. That's number one. And it is important, but it's like all the way down to number three. Yeah. So then, you know, number two was having an authentic emotion during a therapy session. Yeah. And number one, which I'm is always playing in my mind, is like, is how do you help people move towards a thing that they're wanting to avoid most? So that, so the the my personality wants to support, but as I'm working with with a person, I'm always thinking, how do we accomplish that? Well, all three of those, but uh that first one of moving towards, so I'm mixed. I've become more challenging, but like underneath it all, I want to make sure that that support's there. So like yourself, a little bit of both.

Why Progress Can Still Be Slow

SPEAKER_02 23:07

I appreciate you sharing those stats. Those are they're so important for people to know because there has been this view in the therapy community for so long that it's the therapeutic relationship. That's the most important thing. And of course it's important. Yeah, it's up there. Like the reality is um everyone needs to sit back for a second if you're in therapy and ask yourself, do I really like my therapist? Like it matters. Like you need to, you need to like, you need to respect, you need to feel somewhat connected and that trust, and that builds over time. But there's these other elements as you name that are so important when it comes to healing. And so, you know, this this kind of leads us into why people feel stuck. And I think we've named a lot of them, right? Like you're not connected to your therapist, you don't like your therapist. That's that's a red flag. Um, you're lacking the neuroplastic education assessment skills, like someone actually helping you self-assess that this is what's going on. And I think, as you have mentioned, like the lacking of the somatic and emotional skills, where we're helping a per a person be more in touch with their feelings, be more comfortable with them, learn to express them and learn to feel safe with them. Are there are there any others, Paul, that you would say where maybe there's other reasons that people start to feel stuck outside of those three, or are those the main ones that you see?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

I have two maybe that kind of come to mind that that right in this moment is are the big ones for me. Is one is I think we all have patterns, right? Is we all fall into patterns. And uh, and usually with these patterns, there's some defense would be one word to use with it, but something blocking them from being able to make whatever change they're hoping to make. Right? You already mentioned one earlier, right? It's often people go up in their minds and just think instead of feel. Uh, but these these uh defenses, they they're real obstacles for people. They're uh as they would be for me, right? I often tell my clients if we were to switch roles here, you'd probably be able to see some of my patterns that that are that are coming up. I have those patterns too. I'm like, I don't want to go there either. But then I think, okay, what's gonna be most helpful here? So they they they can sneak in in ways that are that make them difficult to uh not only work with, but see in the first place, like you say.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

What was the other one that you wanted to mention? Uh I I always keep thinking that this this work is complex, right? Is like some we we've talked about the people that come to us and they've you know never heard about neuroplastic pain before or symptoms. And then there's people who are like know every book, every line that's ever been uttered, and um like the complexity of of the conflicting messages that are out there too. Like everything we're saying here, people probably can find an opposing view of that out there, right? And I think it's true in the neuroplastic world is there's like you don't do any physical treatment, or it's okay to do some physical treatment. It's just so much, so much conflicting information. Yep. Uh the the causes behind it are so complex. So uh I I I think that complexity issue, sometimes it's more straightforward, that's true. Uh and other times that this stuff is this stuff is tricky.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Well, I think that's what it is, is like, okay, if people have come into therapy and they've been working with a therapist that is well versed in neuroplastic conditions and they're feeling stuck. It's like, yeah, it could be some of these other things that we're talking about, like not a good connection. Um, you know, they're lacking the education, just the basic education they need, they're lacking some of the emotional skills. But I also want people to know, like you're saying, it just is complex. Yeah. And what you'll see in in the neuroplastic space when people are first introduced to it, which I get why. It's it's sometimes stated as like a very simplistic idea.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Yeah, the equation sensation plus fear equals symptoms.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Sounds really simple.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

It's like, okay, secure safety. Okay, we're done. I just make you feel safe. But but the reality is, is like, even if someone's been going to therapy, it doesn't mean necessarily you're meeting with the wrong therapist and you don't see progress. Like, I've worked with some people for two years, and they did amazing brave work consistently for two years, and they got there, but it took a long time. But also worked with people that got there in two months. So it's just everyone like it makes sense. Like our brain and nervous system is complex, our pain and symptoms are complex. And so it kind of comes down to like, you need this comprehensive approach. And a lot of times we talk about this at our clinic is yeah, you need to start with the basics. Sure. Educate yourself on neuroplastic symptoms. Start to identify your symptoms as neuroplastic, believe in that more and more over time. Then you're moving to your brain retraining, you're doing the somatic tracking, you're starting to change your emotional response to your pain. You're you're focusing on your symptoms less. Maybe you even get up the courage, which is scary. I remember this, you start to widen your world, you start to move, you start to get back to activities. It's like, okay, so far, like all those things need to happen. But then it gets to for a lot of people, they need that deeper work. Yep. They need that deeper work that you're talking about, where it's like, oh yeah, I need to identify my defenses and unhelpful ways of coping and start to change that. I need to start to live differently. I need to start to interact differently with emotions. I need to dive into emotional work, to nervous system work. And for a lot of people, trauma work. Like they need to work through with that. And that's kind of what you're speaking to, right? Is that it's just it's complex. It's complex.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Yeah, and and uh it is tough because it is, you and I both been there. For myself, at least, the lowest I've ever been in my life, without a doubt. It it if it is neuroplastic, there is hope, right? And like you said, sometimes it takes years and sometimes it's shorter, and it just depends. Sometimes you have somebody who's been in pain for years and years, and it's shorter, and sometimes somebody who's been in pain for a short while and it's longer work. It's just it's it's it's confusing at times and it's complex.

Finding Fit Without Therapy Hopping

SPEAKER_02 29:33

It is, and and I think there's hope. And you know, today we're talking about like finding that right therapist to support you. Throw another kink in it, not not to make this more complex. The other thing is there might not just be one right therapist. Yeah. Even at my clinic with the practitioners, we've had clients move around over time, and that's fine. But when they met with me, they probably got something different when they met with you, or when they met with Ann or someone else on our team. Like, I'm I'm against therapy hopping. And so what I mean by this is like here's here's what you see, and this is the worst pattern that will keep people stuck forever. I go to see Paul for two sessions, then I go to see Tana for two sessions, then I go to see 27 other therapists for two sessions. Like, you get what I mean? Like the therapy hopping?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yeah, and I think it's usually driven by this like strong desire to get better. Yeah, and I get it. There's this desperation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

I I feel that. I've done that a bit in the past. Yeah. But you gotta to find the right fit, you have to give a bit of time, unless you're seeing huge red flags out the gate. Like you got to give a bit of time to see, is this the right person to guide me here?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Yeah. I usually tell people that I'm working with in a in a consult or the first session, uh, just usually by the uh sometimes people feel it right away.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Right. And sometimes I do with the client too. I'm like, oh yeah, we got to fit here. And um, and sometimes it just takes a little while. Like usually by the third, fourth session, people begin to have a good idea. Uh, is the work going to be a fit? And am I gonna be a fit for them and are they a fit for me? Uh again, that varies, but somewhere along the line is you start to you start to feel this fit that starts to take take place.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

When when I'll speak for myself. When I was in my chronic pain symptoms, is the information I was getting from my mind for sure, too, but my body, my gut sense, is it was it was like it was kind of garbled and and not so clear. So sometimes that can be hard to hard to find, but hopefully people are able to tap into that kind of gut feeling they have as if this, you know, if this person's a fit for them. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

And I think this leads into one of the final things we want to discuss, and I think I love when new people come and do this. I want people, when they're coming to meet me as a therapist, to ask me all sorts of questions. It's so vital. And some people feel like they can't do that. And I want to give this opinion that if you are going to therapy, whether it's you know, through public health and just for free, or whether it's private and you're paying, ask questions when you first meet with them. Like lots of therapists do a free 20-minute consult. It's not just so that we as the therapist can make sure you're a good fit for the treatment, because that's part of it. Like ethically, we want to make sure, oh yeah, like this seems like it's matching up well enough that we can continue. But it's also so much for the client to make sure that the therapist is a good fit for them. Yeah, it's both, right? It's both. And like there's specific questions that people would probably want to ask, as we've talked about, okay, what are you trained in? Uh, can you explain neuroplastic symptoms to me? You will know right out of the gates if that therapist knows enough about this for you to feel comfortable. It's like such a funny way to do it, right? But it's good. Like, is then you know, like, oh yeah, they they understand the neuroscience. Would there be other questions that you would think would be important for someone to be asking early on?

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Uh I I wonder about that style piece, right? Like it's what's what's your what's your style in therapy? I think that's so important because uh again, one of the things that you know been going through it myself is I have some of these personality traits that are common. So it's it's kind of it's it's enjoyable work, right? I I often think of the people I'm seeing are like overly conscientious sometimes and kind of got this um desire to can be connected to other people, avoid conflict. Yeah so uh so I'm meeting like some of the nicest people in the world. Yeah, right. So probably what's helpful is to sometimes look a little beyond that and saying, okay, yeah, I can try to make a connection with this person, but what do I need? Right. So uh some of those things we talked about before. Are you directive? Are you uh is your style, are you um uh do you kind of like to have create space or silence or is it like one thing after the other? Is there lots of structure or not? Are you challenging or reassuring? Yeah, yeah. So finding those things out and kind of what how that fits for you, um, I think that's uh knowing that ahead of time is is helpful. If somebody doesn't ask the question, I'll always say it anyway. Uh, but it's helpful for I think for people to ask that question.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Yeah, it's helpful for the ask or if like clients know what works for them. Yes. Like if if they've been to see 20 other therapies before and they know like generally what works, that's so helpful when come someone comes in and says that. Like I had someone recently be like, I need a lot of reassurance. Um, you know, I need a lot of reassurance that this is what's going on for me, that this is neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

And usually I give that, but it's helpful for me to know, oh, that's really important for you. So like I'll save time each session to give you like a burst of reassurance. Like those things can make the experience, the therapy experience so much better for a person. Because as therapists, you know, we can't read people's minds. And we do our best, uh, not to read their minds, but to understand what they need. But there's there's limits around that.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Um and then what they don't want too, right? Is like, I've done this, this hasn't been helpful for me in the past. Like that stuff to me is is like gold information. I'm like, okay, this is this is important. We can maybe test it out a little bit, but this person's already done this work and that's not a fit. Yeah. Right. It's like, I think that um, I think that collaborative approach is so important. Even if you're doing channel challenging type work, is like, yeah, okay, we're we're in this together, let's let's figure this out as as partners. Because yes, you and I and and the other therapists at the practice were coming from uh a point with all this uh experience, all of this training, but this person's coming with all this experience of being whoever they are first for their whole life, right? And yeah, so I think uh being able to know what works for you and what doesn't work for you is pretty helpful.

What To Ask In A Consult

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah, and just naming that in that free consultation right off the bat, it'll just they're gonna incorporate that. You know, the other thing I think about that can be important is a lot of people when they reach out to to a therapist for treating chronic pain, chronic symptoms, sometimes what's not mentioned is the other conditions that are paired with it. And I mean like other mental health conditions. Like do you have high anxiety? Do you have certain phobias? Are you often depressed? Do you have OCD? Do you have an eating disorder? Um, is there other things like mood disorders, like bipolar? Like these things are so important for your therapist to be aware.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Especially at our practice where there's multiple therapists, and some therapists we have are trained highly in this area, and others, right? There's uh, I agree. I think that's pretty important to match that up as well.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Yeah, it's missed. It's missed a lot of time because people are so focused of like, I need to heal my pain and symptoms. But it's like if you just like share a bit more if if the therapist doesn't ask during that consultation, like if you just share a bit more of like, okay, what are the other things occurring around my pain and symptoms? Um can be so, so beneficial. So I think in closing, I think it's so important for people to not give up on therapy. I think we both would agree on that.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah, one bad therapy, one bad, I don't want to say bad therapist, but one bad experience or uh not a fit, right? Because that often happens is is um, and we I think we do see that sometimes. There are people that have tried other things, this hasn't worked, and then they find the right match with us somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Yeah, it's just giving it some time, understanding, right, that finding the right therapists and the right approach. It's like it'll take some playing around with for you to find the right fit. And Paul, you could be their right fit.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

It's possible. I could I could be that, right? Yeah, there's uh um, I think of myself and and the other therapists I've met through the through the organization, through the practice. Uh I've had so many good experiences. Like I think when I first met Alex, he like mentioned something about this metaphor that that I still use today, right? So there is like phenomenal therapists, uh myself or other ones out there as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

You'd be a great therapist, Paul, because of our like similarities, be a great match.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, we we kind of bend it that way for each other through all this training we've been.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

I know through all the trainings and and the travel, like me and Paul have been on many trips together. Yeah. We've been uh we've been taking airplanes to different places, yeah. Uh, which has been very fun. So I I really do appreciate you coming on talking about this. I think this is a really important piece. Um, if people are interested in booking in with Paul, I'll make sure the link is in the description of this episode. And thank you everyone for listening, and I will talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

We wish you all healing.