The Mind-Body Couple

The Top 5 Signs My Pain & Symptoms Were Neuroplastic

• Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson

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Tanner and Anne share five personal, practical signs that helped Tanner recognize his chronic pain and symptoms were neuroplastic rather than structural.

We explain why collecting this evidence builds real hope and supports an effective path toward recovery.

Tanner's top 5 signs:

#1 Recognizing that his symptoms were driven by emotions, as showed up during a prolonged period of stress.

#2 The spread and movment of Tanner's pain didn't make physical sense, helping him see that it was caused by the brain and nervous system - physical
damage and disease shouldn’t behave that way!

#3 Tanner noticed that pain was rising with delayed onset, meaning it felt ok during an activity, only to flare up later - this also didn't make physical sense!

#4 Tanner noticed his symptoms were tied to his daily mood and emotions, helping him realize his nervous system state was directly influencing his symptom-level.

#5 They were inconsistent! Tanner has a lot of strict rules when he was in pain, but he started to realize that the pain wasn't behaving predictably and the rules could be broken.

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married!

In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were neuroplastic, not structural. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make changes in your life and health!


The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/


Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, an in-depth online course that provides a step-by-step process for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com


Check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ


And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy


Disclaimer: The information provided on this podcast is for general in...

Welcome And Summer Update

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the Mind Body Couple podcast. I'm Tana Murtaugh and I'm Ann Hampson.

SPEAKER_00

This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_01

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapy.ca.

SPEAKER_00

Or purchase our online course at embodycommunity.com to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools, and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode.

SPEAKER_01

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Hi everyone.

SPEAKER_01

It's been a while since we've done a podcast together.

SPEAKER_00

I know. The last one I did alone.

SPEAKER_01

I miss our podcast time. We hope you guys miss it a little bit too. But we want to do a little bit of an update. And so it is summertime. Obviously, when you guys hear this, it'll be summertime for you guys as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And uh, we're gearing up for some family vacations, which is exciting.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's exciting. We've been in kid camp chaos.

SPEAKER_01

Uh yes.

SPEAKER_00

Like our kids are going to so me and Ann can work, or her kids go to different camps every week.

SPEAKER_01

It's very stressful. And actually, many other moms that I've been chatting with feel similar. There's a lot of planning and organization to it.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

But on me.

SPEAKER_00

On you. I I try to help. I try to help.

SPEAKER_01

Center agrees, but it's my stress.

SPEAKER_00

I help. I find out on Monday morning. Each Monday morning, I find out with the kids what camp they're going to.

SPEAKER_01

Anyways, yeah. So we're in the Sirows of summer.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but it's but it's exciting. And I think when we think

Why Signs Of Neuroplastic Pain Matter

SPEAKER_00

about chronic pain, chronic symptoms, I often think about all the things it takes from us. And our ability to like enjoy summer, do summer activities, be outside, be moving. Like a lot of that gets pulled away from us when we have chronic pain, chronic symptoms. So whenever summer comes, since I healed over a decade ago, I feel what a gratitude. Yeah. Just like this is this is amazing, right? Just being outside. Like even, I think, you know, earlier this week and went on an extra long walk with our our puppy Darla. And it was great. It's like it was a maybe 30, 40-minute walk. And that wouldn't have been possible when I was in pain.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. And and I remember that. Like I remember those summers, Tanner, when you were in pain and struggling and how isolating that was for you and how much you missed out on. And we know a lot of our listeners are probably relating to that piece a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I it's it's dark. I think that's the reality, is it's really dark. And, you know, for myself, if you're if you're new to the podcast, over a decade ago I had widespread debilitating chronic pain for about three and a half years. Yeah. Uh my pain started in my right knee. And then over a couple of years, it just spread to my whole body. I became very immobilized. Me and Anne were together back then, and she saw me go through all of that. And I think, like a lot of people, I tried to treat my pain physically.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Which makes again, which makes sense. I know we say that a lot, but it's important to really reiterate that it makes sense to treat it physically, and that's where our mind would go.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And at first, everyone should do that. You should get physical assessments, which I did. I got a few too many of them, got scans of my body, and I did all sorts of various physical treatments, but it went on for way too long. I did that for basically three and a half years the whole time I was in pain. And I just wasn't getting better. And this is what made me shift to start using a brain-based approach. I realized that my pain was neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Now, with neuroplastic pain and symptoms, your body is not damaged or diseased. The symptoms are occurring because your brain is stuck in this heightened state of danger and becomes sensitized. And as I was getting better, it was interesting as I started to learn about neuroplastic symptoms, a brain-based approach, I started to figure out oh, there's all these signs that my symptoms are neuroplastic. Like I started to think about my pain and symptoms differently, which I think you'd probably agree in is like the first step that needs to happen for people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, definitely. And when we're working with clients, that's what we do. We spend a lot of time really looking at maybe their symptoms and their past or their current experience with symptoms and what tells them is neuroplastic. And that's the focus of our podcast today.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, we're gonna talk about my top five signs that my symptoms were neuroplastic. These were big moments that really sold me on this idea of neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_01

Why is gathering and really honing in on these big moments so important?

SPEAKER_00

That evidence and starting to like look for those signs, telling you, hey, my body's actually okay. My symptoms are neuroplastic, I can heal from this. They're huge, they're hugely hopeful. So let's dive into my top five signs that help me recognize my body was okay.

Sign One Emotional Timing

SPEAKER_00

Number one, symptoms developed during an emotional time.

SPEAKER_01

That's an important one. I think a lot of people, when they reflect, can recognize that. Now, I want to say here, not everyone relates to this, and it doesn't mean your symptoms are neuroplastic if you don't relate to it. But this is common.

SPEAKER_00

That's an important piece right there that we should have mentioned earlier. If you don't relate to some of these signs, that's okay. It's not, it's not like you have to relate to all of them for your symptoms to be neuroplastic. But I do find a lot of people, when they think back, come to realize oh, like there was all this emotional stuff going on at the time my chronic symptoms happened. Now, for myself, my chronic symptoms happened back in 2013.

SPEAKER_01

A long time ago.

SPEAKER_00

Me and Ann were so young.

SPEAKER_01

Young, and I was pretty free. You were less free.

SPEAKER_00

I was less free. I've always felt a little less free than Ann, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01

We try to make him freer.

SPEAKER_00

It's gotten better over the years, but freedom, freedom's not a common feeling for me, and this is partly when my symptoms came on. So back in 2013, what was going on in my life? I had changed my major in school.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So I got into the social work undergraduate degree, like the the last two years of my four-year degree. And I was being very intense. Very intense. I was high achieving, perfectionistic. I felt constantly at this time period, and you probably remember this.

SPEAKER_01

I'm smile, no one can see me right now, but I'm smiling as he recounts this.

SPEAKER_00

Like, I felt like I was always behind.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

That was like the general feeling inside that I had of like, no matter how well I did in life, nothing was good enough.

SPEAKER_01

And I remember this. Like, I remember you would talk to me about this. I've observed this. I also observed your kind of uncertainty between switching streams with school and like this like obsessive fear around choosing the right one. Um, always with this negative slant. And I remember being confused by it, confused by this feeling of like, I must understand this or this intensity. Um, but I do remember witnessing that for you, Tanner.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And it's it's interesting to have the outside perspective because you've told me this many years, many times over the years. And again, you don't say this in an invalidating way. I don't want to make it seem like that. I'm sorry. No, it's just sometimes you're like, I can see on your face, you're like, I don't get it. Right. And and that makes a lot of sense. Like, it was so distorted in my reality. And, you know, this didn't just happen to me. I faced overwhelming situations in the past and traumas that like created this, but it was so much, like I just felt so overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And then on top of that, at this time, I don't I don't know if you remember this, but I was going through a spiritual crisis.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I remember this too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the spiritual crisis. I I was reading all these like books on different like spiritualities and religions and atheism and everything you can imagine. So I'm dealing with all this stress and perfectionism and high intensity, trying to be the best in school. And then in my spare time, what am I doing? I'm like fueling this spiritual crisis that I'm in.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So a lot of stressors when we think of everything that you're outlining, Tanner, it's stress from all different angles. And I think when we're in it, we feel it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But we don't realize, oh, like look at all the layers.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like yours, it's a good point because I think a lot of people are aware, oh, I feel bad.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But they're not aware of like all the reasons why that's happening and and how the way they're living could be feeling that. And so for myself, I didn't deal with it. And then all of a sudden I started to experience right knee pain after a run.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And then shortly after that, I think it was like a month later, I started to experience pain in one of my shoulders. And it just spread from there. And at the time I didn't connect them in any way.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

I thought they were separate issues. It's like, yeah, I have mental health issues and I have physical health issues.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And I've said this a lot. I also very much thought the same. Yeah. That, okay, Tanner's mental health is struggling, and now he has pain.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I got some injuries, I got some pain, and and that's how he kind of functions. But when I started to learn about, you know, neuroplastic symptoms, brain-based healing, you know, I thought back and I was like, oh, like, no wonder.

SPEAKER_01

Why did that dawn on you so intensely when you thought like thought back, Tanner?

SPEAKER_00

It just was, it was just kind of a Eureka moment where I realized thinking back, even though as I think back to it now, I can feel it inside of like how how awful I felt emotionally. And so it just became clear it's like these things are connected.

SPEAKER_01

I think sometimes when I talk with people about this, there can, even when we reflect and there's this realization, oh, that is true. There can also be some confusion though, of like, well, I went through high stress before and this didn't happen. And so, what do you say to people, Tanner, um, with that kind of experience? Of like, why did it happen during this time?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so it's a great question. I think it's a really hard question to answer.

SPEAKER_01

Right? I pick you on the spot just for fun. Yeah, yeah. Just to throw you up right now.

SPEAKER_00

I do. I it's a great question. I just think it's a hard question to answer because we don't really choose how our nervous system lets us know about danger. Like, we don't have conscious choice of that. So for some people, they could have gone through what I was going through and they would have had anxiety or depression or extreme irritability and anger. Or for some people, they would have got chronic fatigue. These are all ways that your your nervous system is letting you know of danger and you're not choosing the way. And so what I think uh an important piece that people need to do is just think back and start to understand you know, when your pain or symptoms came on, was there emotional events happening? Life transitions, and we've heard every single one. And and I want to be clear, they can even be positive life transitions, like positive stress that you're feeling that you want.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, they can.

SPEAKER_00

Um could be things like a wedding, a divorce, new baby, uh, family illness or death, beginning university, financial difficulties, could be a different like career stress or like a bigger trauma. So there could be a lot of reasons that happen. And I always recommend what people do is Dr. Schubert's timeline activity where you know you write down the dates of your various pain and symptoms coming on. And then you see if they correlate with emotional events, life transitions, uh, stressors or traumas. Because this can start to help you like figure out oh, is like these difficult emotions dysregulation fueling the development of pain and symptoms?

SPEAKER_01

I think so too. Sometimes it's hard when we reflect back to maybe see that. And so I think it can be common when I talk with people, um, they'll respond, well, nothing really stands out, but they can reflect on the slow build of maybe feeling stress, feeling pressure, feeling overwhelmed in the day-to-day grind of life. And so that's something to reflect on too, of like this kind of slow burnout sometimes that's been happening and then coincided with pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_00

No, that's a great point. It can be, it can be so gradual. What's the analogy? Like the frog and hot water, where they turn the hot water up more and more, and it's just like boil the frog. Yeah, yeah. Like it's not what I'm saying. Like, I think that happens with stress where it's like you're in it and it builds so gradually that all of a sudden one day you're like, Whoa, what has happened?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I think that's a really great, great way to describe how it can happen for some people of like all it seems like all of a sudden, but it's been this gradual thing that's been going on.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so look out for that too.

Sign Two Pain Spreads And Moves

SPEAKER_00

Number two, spread and move.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So my story here, my my sign was the mysterious left leg pain.

SPEAKER_01

Why mysterious?

SPEAKER_00

For probably about a year at this point, I was having hip, sciatic pain, and some and some muscle pain throughout my right leg. Which made it really hard to walk. Um made me really immobile. So it was it was a really tough symptom that I was dealing with. And one night we were gonna go on a date night.

SPEAKER_01

Oh.

SPEAKER_00

We were gonna go to a movie. This is like this moment's for some reason really in my memory. This is the weird thing about me, is like I have a really good memory.

SPEAKER_01

I have a really bad memory.

SPEAKER_00

Anne has a bad memory. So it's sometimes when I recall things that have happened to us, it's like it's the first time it's happened to Anne ever.

SPEAKER_01

Which may happen right now. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so we were going to a movie.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I remember what movie theater.

SPEAKER_01

What movie?

SPEAKER_00

I don't remember what movie. Oh. I know, it's not that good. But you were having a nap as I do. As you do before you had kids.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I don't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you were living your best life.

SPEAKER_01

Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00

Um and I was on the couch, you know, lost in worry thought.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um, as I do. And so pretty standard.

SPEAKER_01

I'm napping and he's anxious.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. So I'm I'm sitting there and I have this really scary thought because my right knee or my right leg is killing me. And I have this scary thought of, wouldn't it be terrible if I started to have the same pain in my left leg? Oh no, I know where this is going. So I have this like scary thought, and I get up to like go get a drink or something from the fridge, and I can just feel that sciatic y pain down my left leg.

SPEAKER_01

How was that for you when it like came true?

SPEAKER_00

It was terrible.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And I know we're kind of smiling and laughing about it, but that was horrific.

SPEAKER_00

In the moment, it was like panic, and I didn't know enough about neuroplastic pain yet. So I didn't know what the heck was going on. And I was like, I felt like I was going crazy at that point. Um, it was it was like a scary moment, and then it just, you know, it stayed. Like the pain stayed until I healed.

SPEAKER_01

And this is something I actually hear a lot from people of we fear it or we think it, and then it happens.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And and what you see is like this this spreading and moving that freaks people out, causes fear, causes confusion, confusion, causes frustration. But in a positive way, it's actually a great sign your symptoms are neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but I imagine, like you were saying at the time, it's really, really scary.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, until you understand, like it's scary to have happen. Now, the the important thing to understand is like if you have a physical injury or there's something wrong with your body, the pain or symptoms are gonna be pretty located that one place. And it's not going to over time just spread to other other body parts. And so we're we're looking for that as we're like helping someone self-assess if their symptoms are neuroplastic. Have they spread or moved? Did they, you know, migrate from a small area to a large area? Did the symptoms become symmetrical like they did in my legs?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's important at this point right now to comment and speak to a little bit about fibromyalgia. Because that's often what people end up with that diagnosis when they get when their pain starts spreading to become widespread.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and with fibromyalgia, our our opinion on this is that this is a neuroplastic condition.

SPEAKER_01

And not just ours. There's like research and support.

SPEAKER_00

There is research to support that this approach can greatly reduce fibromyalgia symptoms. Like this is like, you know, documented in clinical trials. And so we know that fibromyalgia is neuroplastic in nature. And but people get so freaked out that as there's symptoms spread or move, then it means there's something wrong with all these different body parts. But actually, what's happening is this is just brain and nervous system sensitization. And then when it goes untreated, it tends to move and spread over time. Right. But when I started to learn about the criteria for neuroplastic symptoms, this was a huge moment because I thought back and I was like, my symptoms are for sure neuroplastic. I just had this scary thought about my left leg starting to hurt, and then moments later it started. So consider if your symptoms have migrated around your body, have moved around, become symmetrical, as this suggests that they're neuroplastic rather than structural.

Sign Three Delayed Onset Flares

SPEAKER_00

Number three, delayed onset.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So during my pain journey, as I've talked about a lot on the podcast, um I became almost completely bedbound. So what I mean by that is I barely left our apartment. I limited my walking to under 10 minutes at most. And even at that, it was more like five. I wasn't working, I wasn't going to the grocery store, I wasn't doing anything because I was just so scared. Because anytime I tried to increase my movement when I had pain, another area would start to hurt.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I remember that again. Like, I know we talked about this at this time. I very much thought like I didn't, I don't think I realized how much pain you were in. I very much thought this was mental health.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um But what was that like for you, Tanner? Like when you're just so afraid of bringing the pain on and your world was so small.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, it was it was interesting because there was moments where it was like quite terrifying because I realized what happened. But I would say when I was probably like three years into it, when it was really at its worst, I was so shut down that it was kind of like I was just numb to it all. It's not a great place to be. And a lot of people with chronic pain, chronic symptoms will relate to this where you just shut down. It's like everything hurts, you can't do anything. And so it makes sense, your nervous system just kind of clicks off. And that's what I was walking around as. But I had this one moment where I watched like a motivational video on YouTube, and I got so excited, I was like, F it, I'm gonna go work out. So we're talking about a guy that's bedbound, basically, and I like go to um my my workplace, my old workplace at the time let me go use the gym. So I went there and I didn't lift like super heavy. But I did like a pretty full back and bicep workout. And guess what? I felt fine.

SPEAKER_01

Were you surprised?

SPEAKER_00

I was like, in the moment, I was like, I think I just beat my chronic pain.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Like I like actually had this moment of like, I did it. I just like went for it, you know, and I don't have pain. I just worked out. Next day I woke up and I felt like I was hit by a train. Like it was like intense, widespread pain, struggling to get out of bed. And then I went into despair. I was like, oh, there's definitely something wrong with me. Because like, you know, this wouldn't happen. But when I learned about neuroplastic pain and symptoms, I understood that delayed onset is a criteria for neuroplastic symptoms. Because you have to understand if you have injury or damage in your body and you're doing something, right? Like you're doing something physical and you're aggravating that, you're going to feel it right in the moment. But with neuroplastic symptoms, what you get is this delay of like hours after someone's worked out, or a day later, two days later, all of a sudden they're having intense pain.

SPEAKER_01

I think this is a hard one for people to get their head around because they still, and I and I get it. There's still that equation of like, I did that activity and then I had that pain after. So there's still that fear around the pain and the activity and that avoidance, like you're talking about. And the pain can, like you said, can be really, really great.

SPEAKER_00

Now don't go do what I did. Don't go do an intense back or bicep.

SPEAKER_01

But was wrong, if if we want to say wrong.

SPEAKER_00

Because I do error quotations. I f I, you know, when you're when you're going from like bedbound to like extreme or extreme or exercise, you're gonna freak your nervous system out.

SPEAKER_01

Too much too soon.

SPEAKER_00

Even if your body's completely healthy and safe, it's like you're gonna freak out your brain and nervous system and and increase symptoms. So you gotta do this in a graded way.

SPEAKER_01

It's a gradual build instead of throwing yourself into that delayed pain.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Delayed onset is just a good criteria to understand that, like, hey, my body's actually okay. And I can slowly start to work on this.

Sign Four Emotions Change Symptoms

SPEAKER_00

Number four, symptoms are influenced by your emotions.

SPEAKER_01

I want to say I love this one.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And I'll explain love this one because I think this one, for the most part, can be an easy one to reflect on and see.

SPEAKER_00

And start to pick up.

SPEAKER_01

And start to pick up and also believe. And so this is a good one to really try to explore.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So when symptoms are neuroplastic, if you're having difficult emotions or nervous system dysregulation, pain and symptoms can increase sometimes. Or the opposite can happen. You're living your best life, you're feeling joyful that day, calm, hopeful, symptom levels come down.

SPEAKER_01

And I I want to say that this can be so powerful to recognize upon reflection, but also in the moment.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. It's just so helpful because it's like irrefutable.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right? Like it just is. It's like if if your emotions are greatly affecting your symptom levels to go up or down, we know that they're neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And that's what we're looking for. Now I had a moment that I would say this is actually probably the moment where I knew I knew my symptoms were neuroplastic. Like this was like, it just like locked it in for me. So I was back at work at this point. I was working at a university wellness center with Alex, actually. Um and it wasn't going well. I mean, it wasn't going well. Like I because Alex was like I was just starting to learn about this approach. No, not because Alex.

SPEAKER_01

You just missed that. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00

Sorry. Alex was great. He helped me get the job. He was a great guy. But but when I was there, like I hadn't started this approach yet. So I was in agony. And as a therapist, you sit all day, and sitting was very painful for my back and hips.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think many listeners probably relate to that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I was starting to learn about this approach. Like I had started to read some of the books, read some stuff online. So I understood, hey, symptoms could be neuroplastic, they're reversible. This, you know, this is how you start to treat it. Like I do enough, but I hadn't started applying any of it. And in between sessions, I would lie on the ground because my back would just be too painful. And one moment, it was I was working late that night. I lied on the ground, and I don't know what came over me, but I started to visualize what my future life would be like if I didn't have pain. So I started to visualize what our relationship, my name's relationship, would be like. I started to visualize having future children and how we would love and care for them. And there was a feeling, like I can't even describe it, there was a feeling of such a burst of hope that I stood up and my back pain that had been about eight out of 10, like pretty high level, was gone. And so like I stood up and extreme back pain had just completely dissipated.

SPEAKER_01

What did you think in that?

SPEAKER_00

I was like in shock. I was like, what happened? This is wild. Now it did come back a few hours later. But that wasn't the thing that just healed everything. But it helped me understand, oh, like I had such a burst of safety that my brain just completely clicked off back pain. And that was a moment where I was like, I need to focus on treating the brain and nervous system. Like this is my path out.

SPEAKER_01

And we need to hold on to those moments. So if you relate to Tanner at all, like it's important to hold on to that and remind ourselves of that when we start going back into doubt or rumination or wondering. But visualization, like you talked about, can be so powerful that way. Um, and I know it's not for everybody, but it is for you really visualizing and tapping into the kind of the good emotions or sensations and noticing what happens there can be crucial.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's it, is you know, there can be this visualization and leaning into what feels calm and noticing the effect of your symptoms. But it's also noticing the effect of your symptoms in your darker moments.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

In your harder times. So, like as you go about your days or your weeks, just notice are you feeling better or worse pain-wise or symptom-wise, depending on where your emotions are at? Because this is like clear evidence your symptoms are neuroplastic.

Sign Five The Symptom Rule Book

SPEAKER_00

Now, to explain this, we're gonna go on a bit of a journey, Anne.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

We talk about in our approach a pain or symptom rule book. So, what this means is you have a rule book made up of things you do or don't do because you believe if you follow it, your symptoms will stay low or they will not flare.

SPEAKER_01

Understandable.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So do rules, right? Um, I need to stretch for 20 minutes every morning. Uh I need to use the heat pad. Gotta use the heat pad. I got to eat certain foods.

SPEAKER_01

I need to rest at certain times.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I need to go to physiotherapy four or five times a week, right? So these are the do rules. The don't do rules are more obvious, right? Don't walk more than 10 minutes. Don't run.

SPEAKER_01

Don't sit in that chair.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, don't sit in that chair. Um, you're not able to work right now, so don't do that. Don't stand up for too long. Like, there's all these things. The problem is that when your symptoms are neuroplastic, all the rules are incorrect.

SPEAKER_01

Which feels so hard. It's so hard. It's so hard. I I even I know this, and right now I'm like, oh, that feels hard. So yeah, it's a hard thing.

SPEAKER_00

So for myself, I had this rule um of not walking more than 10 minutes, as I've said, but I had an even stronger rule of do never ever run. Like running was like death to me. Like you cannot do this because there was a few times I tried to play soccer or do things and my pain was so high.

SPEAKER_01

I like that you highlight the different levels of rules. Because I think that's common too of like big rules, small rules, medium rules. I think people probably relate to that anyway.

SPEAKER_00

Don't run was like my biggest rule.

SPEAKER_01

Which again makes sense. And I really want to validate that, why those rules come around.

SPEAKER_00

You know, when we have all these rules, before coming to a brain-based approach, people think, oh, I can't run because I'm gonna damage my body. Yes. I gotta stretch every morning because otherwise my legs are gonna be in pain all day. So, like you have these strong rules, but when the symptoms are neuroplastic, all that's happened is your brain has just misinterpreted that all these things are dangerous. Like my brain misinterpreted from other experiences that running equals danger.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And so as a result, running equals pain.

SPEAKER_01

What about? Because I think a lot of people talk to me about this idea, they start to learn and believe, okay, my pain is neuroplastic, but the pain still happens. And so it's hard letting go of that rule because even though there's this belief that it's neuroplastic, there's still the fear of the pain, which is very real coming on.

SPEAKER_00

There is. But it's important for people to understand the rules are incorrect and that their symptoms are neuroplastic because that gives you hopefully enough courage to slowly do the brain retraining and graded exposure. Yes. Like I did this with walking, where I would practice, you know, the somatic work while walking for five minutes at first and then 10 minutes, and then I was outside for 15, 20 minutes, and eventually got to an hour.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

But that started with me understanding oh, this rule that I can't walk or that walking is gonna damage me is not true. Okay. That's what we're doing. And so I had a moment that showed very strongly that my symptoms were neuroplastic around me small me spontaneously breaking a rule. So as I said, anytime I had run in the last three and a half years when I was in pain, epic level of pain. Um and so we were on our honeymoon in Mexico.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, such joyous times for me. Maybe no, it was good, it was good for me.

SPEAKER_00

I was I was about four months into healing.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I was having more joy. I was having like I think moments of no pain or very low pain. I was walking an hour so I could walk around a resort. But at the resort, they had ping pong.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yes. Actually, I remember, I remember this clearly. And I remember your excitement for the ping pong.

SPEAKER_00

I love ping pong.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he's actually pretty good at it.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's nice when you compliment me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_00

Makes us feel good, makes me feel good about our marriage, you know?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, and maybe future podcast time together.

SPEAKER_00

Future podcasts. Yeah. That's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You're good at ping pong too.

SPEAKER_01

No, but anyways, keep going.

SPEAKER_00

So there were these ping pong tournaments, and and I I remember the first day I didn't sign up because like you're running after the ball, like there's a lot of movement, running, jagged movements. I was pretty nervous. So I didn't do it. So I watched the first tournament. And on the second day, I was like, I'm just gonna do it. And I hadn't run in like three years, barely at all. And I just went for it. And I played ping pong, maybe not to Anne's excitement, for probably an hour or two hours.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I actually remember napping, yeah, which made me happy. Again, the napping. No napping now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I played ping pong for an hour or two and and have a nap. And I was sore, but I was fine. And what this showed me is that my symptoms were behaving very inconsistently. Because in the past, running and caused huge levels of pain. But now I can run and I was completely okay.

SPEAKER_01

Now, if you're testing this out and you're maybe doing that and you're like, okay, I'm gonna see, and the pain still comes on like normal, doesn't mean it's not neuroplastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But looking for this inconsistency.

SPEAKER_00

And this is a huge inconsistency. And again, I want people to be cautious like, don't go play pingbong for two hours if you're bedbound. Like I was at the right point by healing to do that. But you're looking for inconsistency. And I think that's important because structural injuries, damages, diseases in the body, they typically behave quite consistently. Um, they feel pretty much the same, or the same thing triggers it to the same level over and over again. But if sometimes you go for a walk and your pain's at an eight out of 10, other times you go for a walk, it's a three out of 10, like that's inconsistency.

SPEAKER_01

And worth noting that kind of inconsistency.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and helps you understand that your symptoms are neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So

Hopeful Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_00

these are my five signs that my symptoms were neuroplastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I think talking about it now, oh, what does it do for you now still to reflect on it? We kind of started talking about this at the beginning, but why is it important for you to kind of hold those closed, Tanner?

SPEAKER_00

They were just really hopeful when I like realized them either in the moment or on reflection later, that my symptoms were neuroplastic and they were reversible. I think that's that can be so healing. And so I want people to start to look for their own signs. Like, look out for these signs that your symptoms are neuroplastic and you can get better because that's gonna fuel your recovery forward.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

So thank you everyone for listening.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you soon. Talk to you next time. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

SPEAKER_00

We wish you all healing.