3 Ways You Accidentally Teach Your Brain Danger

Tanner & Anne unpack 3 subtle habits that can keep your nervous system stuck in danger mode, even when you are doing everything you can to heal neuroplastic pain & symptoms.

We share how to spot these patterns in real time and how we retrain the brain with awareness, helpful redirection, and gentle exposure back into life. 
• The brain’s constant “safe or danger” scan and why symptoms increase scanning 
• Catching obsessive checking, testing, and reassurance seeking 
• Using awareness and helpful distraction to teach safety 
• The certainty trap and how it fuels overanalyzing and control 
• Why you do not need 100% belief to make progress 
• How avoiding life teaches the brain that life is unsafe 
• Pacing exposure, expecting bumps, and building safety

Tanner Murtagh and Anne Hampson are therapists who treat neuroplastic pain and mind-body symptoms. They are also married!

In his 20s, Tanner overcame chronic pain and a fibromyalgia diagnosis by learning his symptoms were neuroplastic, not structural. Post-healing, Tanner and Anne have dedicated their lives to developing effective treatment and education for neuroplastic pain and symptoms.

Listen and learn how to assess your own chronic pain and symptoms, gain tools to retrain the brain and nervous system, and make changes in your life and health!

The Mind-Body Couple podcast is owned by Pain Psychotherapy Canada Inc. This podcast is produced by Alex Klassen, one of the wonderful therapists at our agency in Calgary, Alberta. https://www.painpsychotherapy.ca/

Tanner, Anne, and Alex also run the MBody Community, an in-depth online course that provides a step-by-step process for assessing, treating, and resolving mind-body pain and symptoms. https://www.mbodycommunity.com

Check out Tanner's YouTube channel for more free education and practices: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Fl6WaFHnh4ponuexaMbFQ

And follow us for daily education posts on Instagram: @painpsychotherapy

Disclaimer: The information provided on this podcast is for general in...

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Catch Up

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Mind Body Couple podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

I'm Tanda Murtaugh.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

And I'm Ann Hampson.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

If you need support with your healing, you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapy.ca.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Or purchase our online course at embodycommunity.com to access in-depth education, somatic practices, recovery tools, and an interactive community focused on healing. Links in the description of each episode. Hi everyone. Hi everybody. Welcome back. Welcome back. We haven't done a podcast in a while, me and Ann.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

I know. I feel like it's been it's been a while.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well, we were on vacation with our kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

So anyone with young kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Don't do vacation. Stay away from vacations.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

There's some fun moments. Actually, this one went better than many in lots of ways. So that's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Yeah. We're hoping as our kids age, vacations will get easier.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

We're hoping.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

And this one was a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

There's probably like parents with teenagers listening right now. They're like, no, it doesn't. They're laughing at us.

Why The Brain Scans For Danger

SPEAKER_01 1:30

So today we're going to talk about how you're accidentally teaching your brain danger.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Yes. And I like this topic because we're hoping to uncover some things for you guys. So it'd be like, okay, here's where it's happening. Because we know knowledge is power. But it can also feel daunting, I think, for people because it's like, oh, this is accidentally happening without my knowledge. And that can be really overwhelming.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah, it can feel overwhelming and scary. And we hope this podcast episode kind of lays things out clearly of what to look for.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Okay, what is my brain doing in every moment? So in every moment, it's asking one question. Am I safe or am I in danger?

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

It is. And whether we're aware of it or not, that's what it's meant to do, because it's trying to help you survive.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Feels like that's a lot happening there. It's a lot happening.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

But this is how it's assessing if you're safe or in danger. And when we develop pain and symptoms, your brain even scans more intensely for danger. It's constantly scanning what's going to make my symptoms worse. And so we get lost in kind of danger mode a lot of the time in the state of our nervous system.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

And I think it's really important when we start to realize that and learn that how much of we're always in that danger mode. And then as we're going to talk about ways to recognize it and step out of that.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Yeah, exactly. And I think today we're going to break down three hidden ways you could be teaching your brain danger. And so we'll lay them all out and how you can start to catch them and start to make effective change.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

So let's dive in.

Hidden Signal One Body Monitoring

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Wonder how they're presenting. Right away when people wake up, it's in their awareness and they're checking.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yes. It's so common. Like anyone listening, we get it. It makes sense. It's like things have felt really off inside for a long time. So it makes sense that you're constantly monitoring to make sure that you're going to be okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

And that would go with what we're saying of scanning and checking for the danger.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

And, you know, we teach a lot about somatic work with pain, symptoms, emotions. But this is different. This is like this hyper monitoring that we're talking about, where people are laser focused, fearful. Like, is it going to get worse? Is it going to get better? Uh, what does this sensation mean? Like, it's not in the same way that we talk about somatic work with symptoms. So that's the first piece because I get a lot of questions about that.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Um, where I'm telling people on our YouTube channel, hey, focus in on the body. And they're like, I'm always focused on the body.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Which it makes sense why there's maybe confusion.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yes. But it's focused in a different way. Like when you're doing somatic work, you're trying to be curious. You're trying to explore, you're trying to have no desired outcome, no expectation of forcing something to change. It's a different feel. And I get it because when I had pain, I was like laser focused. I was just lost.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

I remember that, Tanner. Like it was the only thing you were aware of, only thing on your mind.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

It was this constant fear like you're talking about, which again makes sense. So as Tanner was saying, we really want to validate that.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

Um, but I remember it's almost like you couldn't not be checking for it.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

It it was so obsessive.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

It was just like I was just locked in. And probably 80% of my day, I was just monitoring sensations in this very fearful way.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Well, I like that you say that. Because I think that's a way for people to distinguish okay, is this not serving me or is this scanning for danger if I'm falling into this obsessiveness around it?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yeah. Yeah. If you're getting obsessive, it's not doing somatic work in the way we talk about and teach. Yeah. So I always tell people, okay, how do we stop doing this? Well, the first thing is you just need the awareness of when it happens. Because I was doing it 80% of my day, it was almost like just running in the background all the time. And I'd be three hours in and be like, oh, I'm back here again. I'm like locked into anxious sensations and can't move off of them. Like it just becomes so habitual, people miss it. So I always say, like, start to notice as you go about your day, when am I thinking about my symptoms or um any unpleasant sensation inside? When am I talking about it with family or friends or constantly asking my partner for reassurance?

SPEAKER_03 6:33

I have to, I have to join in with you on this one, Tenner, because I think when am I talking about it? And there's a line there. We also encourage people to communicate, talk to people about it, process it, get support. But it's when it becomes this obsessive, maybe checking, or the only focus that we're talking about. That is something to watch for.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, like it consumed my name's relationship when I was in pain. It did. It was just like all we talked about in a very unhealthy way.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Well, and as his partner, it became all I talked about with him too. Like I was in that cycle as well. And then and it was really hard to break out of that. So you mentioned awareness, which a hundred percent I agree with is key. But I remember being aware we were aware, and then stepping out of there, it was hard.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

It was hard because it just became pain and dysregulation just became like a third person in the relationship, essentially. Like that's how we were almost functioning. And so, yeah, like the awareness is key. The other one I want to say, real quick, that you want to be aware of, is like testing it.

unknown 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Are you moving a certain way? Are you like shaking your foot repetitively to see if there's ankle pain there? And so, yes, the awareness, then congratulate yourself.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

I like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Give yourself a little praise.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Yes. I like it. Yeah, well, and that praise is important because sometimes we like you say it's in the background and there isn't that awareness. So developing awareness is the start.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Is needed. And then you gotta practice shifting to something else.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Uh, so redirection.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yes. And I get a lot where people are like, Well, are we just distracting ourselves? And it's like, kind of, but what you're actually doing is you're teaching your brain, I don't need to always hypermonitor to feel safe.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

Ah, so when I I agree. So people ask me this too. I like to call it helpful distraction.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Helpful distraction. Oh, I like that. That's good. Yeah. That's good. Um and I think that could be a lot of things. Like that could be shifting to talk with your partner about something that has nothing to do with your symptoms.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Like the movies.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

The movies.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Maybe. I'm just imagining.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Depending on the film. Maybe not a horror film. Unless you like horror films. I don't know. Anyway, pick something that like is enjoyable or used to be enjoyable. So shift and be fully present in a conversation. Or go start to work on a hobby, or go start to focus on a career goal of yours. And yeah, you want to start small, but you gotta practice that shifting of focus to teach your brain you don't have to hypermonitor to feel safe.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

And that's gonna feel hard. So it's having the awareness, like being like noticing in real time this is what's going on, and then shifting.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah. And you may have to do it many times an hour at first. Yeah. And so if that happens, you're not doing anything wrong.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah, right. It's it's training a new muscle, and you're training yourself in some ways out of what you used to do.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Yeah.

Hidden Signal Two Chasing Certainty

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Number two, seeking certainty. The hidden danger message. I will not be safe until I know with a hundred percent certainty that I'm physically okay. This is a tricky one for people.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

When people were younger and they experienced anxiety or depression or overwhelm, a lot of people learn to cope through like always seeking certainty.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

It just becomes constant for some people. Where as long as they have the answer, as long as they know what's gonna happen next, at least they'll know they're gonna be okay. And so I get it. It's like a useful way of coping. But people end up in like overanalyzing everything, problem solving everything, controlling everything. I love control.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

It's a that's like you, Jack.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

That's like me. And and I've had to work on those things because although sometimes those coping mechanisms can be effective, constantly seeking certainty is like a major danger signal to your brain.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

And and sometimes we can get that certainty in some ways.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Oh, and it feels so good.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Yeah, yeah. And then we really want to seek it again later. And so I relate to this kind of not in a pain way, but my own needing certainty. And so um, as some of you guys know, I I own a horse. Um, I've owned him for one year, but I'm a new horse owner. When he lives on a property, he lives in a field, and there's a gate that you have to open and close. The dreaded gate to keep him safe, right? Like he's locked in the field with other horses and the gate is shut. Um I used to get very worried when I drove home that I forgot to shut the gate. And I knew it was not a rational thought, really. Like it's automatic, like you shut the door when you leave the house.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

But I used to get very worried because he wasn't, he was on someone else's horse at the time. So this is before I owned him. Um, and what if he runs out and I lose him? I used to also get worried that maybe I thought I shut the gate, but I actually hadn't. And so did I have the certainty of a memory of seeing myself shut to the game.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, you're trying to like remember back and like, did I do that?

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Yeah. So I would go through my mind all the steps of putting him in his field, letting him go, shutting the gate. But if I didn't have that clear memory, then I couldn't feel the certainty.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Well, you couldn't feel the certainty, and you struggled with safety in those moments.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

And so let's talk about what behaviors occurred around this.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

I would just say this didn't occur all the time. Tanner, I think you are present for once. And so I just want to say, calm down over there. Okay. But but yes, once in a while, that uncertainty would become such an obsession in my mind. And I couldn't convince myself that he was safe in his locked gate, that I would go and drive back to the property to literally check the gate. And I would need that sometimes to feel that safety that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yeah, you did.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

And there's one time Tanner was with me and I made him go. And he was very angry.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

I was not that angry.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

You were so mad.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

It's because I saw you close the gate.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

You weren't there. No, he wasn't there. But there was once where Tanner was with me.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

No, but the funnier time that it happened was like you're you were with the kids. Yeah, it wasn't funny for you, but this was an adorable moment of our son. You're with our kids, and then you made them drive back to check it.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

This is painful. So this was when I owned him and he moved to a new property, but I was very anxious about being a new horse owner at a new property. So my anxiety was high, and then my date worries were higher.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

And I had gone with the kids, and then yeah, what happened?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Well, as soon as my son entered the house, he was like, Mommy went back to check the gate. He liked ratted you out inside.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

And then it made the kids go with me.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah. But but this is it. And like, and I remember I was having lots of conversations, which I can't, I have no ground to stand on here. Because I love reassurance and and different things like that.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

I I needed that reassurance to feel safe because a lot of my anxiety around the I for me, I think it was uh around this responsibility of like interacting with this horse.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yes, of course, and it's new, right? And and that makes a lot of sense. And when we talk about if we shift it to okay, treating neuroplastic pain and symptoms, yes, this happens a lot where people seek certainty in an unhelpful way. Where people want certainty, 100% certainty, that their pain, their dizziness, their fatigue is neuroplastic. Yes. And I'm even careful in this in session with people where I'm happy to give people some reassurance, but within reason. Because there's no perfect certainty early on. And it's a it's a trap to fall into. The other thing that happens is people want certainty of what exact healing strategies they need to do to get better. Yes. I always tell people I didn't exactly know what was gonna work for me. And I had to try things out. Like the first three or four months, I made lots of mistakes while I was healing my pain. And eventually I figured out what worked for me. But that just took experimenting while I was uncertain. And even with my pain being neuroplastic, yeah, I had a pretty good sense of like this is what's happening. But there wasn't 100% certainty. And that's not needed. Like, you don't need this like flawless belief where it's just like I believe this 100%, no one convinced me otherwise. Yes, some people have that, and you hear success stories of people talking about that. Right. Most people in my experience don't have that. So it's this understanding that like that experience will bring more certainty over time.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Yeah, it grows as you progress through this.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Exactly. But you can't force it. So everyone listening, just watch out for the certainty trap because it will fuel this sense of danger and dysregulation.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah.

Hidden Signal Three Avoiding Life

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Number three, avoiding living life until you feel better. The hidden danger message life is not safe to live when I have symptoms. I think this one is a huge one. A lot of people I talk with have this black and white belief that I either have symptoms and that's the life I live, or I don't have symptoms and I can't move into living more life.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

If symptoms are present.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Exactly. Like people, people get the equation wrong. Yeah. When when clients come to see us through our therapy practice or digital course, we hear this all the time, like you just explained. They think, okay, once my symptoms go away or significantly reduced, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Which is basically completely in people's minds.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Yeah, then only then will I start to move, work, live life, do hobbies. That basically almost never happens.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

Well, and maybe explain a little bit more to people why that never happens. Because I think that is the idea. Like people want that, and I understand that.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Well, that's what it is is like people focus early on on the things that don't involve living life. So they focus on, okay, let's gather evidence about my symptoms are neuroplastic, let's use some cognitive skills, let's use some somatic tracking, you know, work with sensations inside. But the problem is that avoidance is a danger signal to your brain.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

And so for the same reason why I'm having someone approach sensations inside, because if they just avoid sensations of pain or emotions all the time, it's just gonna make everything way worse. It's actually gonna amplify it all. The same thing goes for living life. The more you put off living life and avoid doing it, the more your brain learns, oh, life is really threatening.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Life isn't safe. And avoidance, I would say avoidance is probably the number one thing, in my opinion, that will kill off progress in this approach. The sooner you can start to slowly approach living life, typically the better people start to slowly feel.

SPEAKER_03 18:43

Yeah, and then that probably is gonna be starting living life with some degree of symptoms still.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yes. And that's it, is you're not gonna be in a position of having no symptoms and starting to live life. Because if you're starting to live life again, and you've been avoiding it for a long time, it is gonna increase symptoms a bit. That's normal. There's no way that someone goes from like, for example, completely immobilized to fully working out of the gym five days a week without having some bumpiness along the way. There's no path to going from isolating your house completely to fully being a social butterfly and not having some bumpiness along the way. That's part of the process. Part of the process. Yeah. So, for example, the things that I practiced at first, and they were small. We're talking, I practiced walking for five to seven minutes. And I was even in our apartment at first. I started to do small social gatherings with friends. What I'm talking about here is two of our good friends lived above us at the time. Um, they called this tea time with Tanner, but because I had been like isolating for so long, we would basically drive to Tim Hortons, get a tea, hang out in the car for 10 minutes, drive home.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Right. It was small socializing.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

And and it was bumpy at first. There were some pain increases, but I used the somatic work as I did it. So I tracked sensations, I used a lot of safety signals during it, like breath work or uh visualization or tapping or massage to kind of regulate. Uh, sometimes I even put on like fun music when I would go for a walk. So I was teaching my brain, hey, I'm safe to walk. Hey, I'm safe to socialize. This is okay. But your brain needs the experience of you actually doing it.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

And I think this is a really great point, Tanner, because that living life again is the exposure. And when we're doing the exposure work, symptoms are likely going to respond, but that's not bad. That's part of the process again. And we need to, it's important to remember that.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, it's important to remember, and it's important to know you don't want to go too slow and you don't want to go too fast.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Now, I see sometimes people get a bit stuck, I want to say, in going too slow.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah. Well, if you go too slow, it's gonna take you 50 years.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Right. Okay. That's just the reality.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

That's a good way to put it. It's gonna take you a really long time. Now, you can start small at first, but then you need to gradually increase. And I get what I am asking of people is hard because it takes a lot of facing your fears repetitively. And when you're doing the exposure of living life, it's kind of like you're always putting yourself in this uncomfortable state.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Like repetitively. Because what'll happen, for example, I walked for five to seven minutes. I practiced that for two or three weeks. Pain, anxiety came down. Now I bump up to 10 minutes. Well, well, now I'm in pain and I'm I'm anxious again. Like, like it was a it was a The right level, but you're kind of just like always like putting yourself in this uncomfortable state.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Yeah, it's always like upping the ante a bit is a way I like to talk to people about it. Of like, okay, we gotta keep upping the ante, but in a pace that is still somewhat comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Comfortable and reasonable. And eventually you'll get to this place where the exposure gets really fun.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

I feel like lots of people listening uh don't know what that place is gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

I used an example where after I could walk for maybe 30, 40 minutes, our two friends were playing like Babinton in the backyard. Um, and I like I don't know where the courage came from, but I was like, I'm just doing this. And we're talking about a guy who's like barely moved in three years. And I was just out there and and I was sore, but all of a sudden it was fun, right? Like I was joking with my friends, I was just like having a good time. I wasn't as scared, but it it was following like a month or two of like working with the walking consistently to get me there.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

So you have to keep your bigger goal in mind. So I would, you know, obviously make sure you're consulting with your physician of what you're safe to do, but I would pick one or two things out that are small that you want to start doing. This could be a movement, this could be maybe a mild sport, it might be a hobby that involves using your body in some way, or it might be socializing.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Tea time with Tanner.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Well, I like that you bring in socializing because I think people don't always think about that first. It's maybe a farther down the road thing, but socializing is so important for our mental health.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

It is.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Um, there's some such good pieces to why we want to be social beings or need that in our lives.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah. I think that's a that's one that people miss because people get so focused on using their body again. The other one that can involve using your body, but it's also working. Like if you're off work right now, it's the same process. What are all the things you would need to slowly expose yourself to get to a place that you would be ready to go back to work?

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Um, and you may hate your job, so maybe don't start with that one. But if you like work, that might be one that you would be passionate about. So pick one or two things, don't pick 27 things. Pick one or two small things that you can start to work away at and create some safety as you're going along.

Three Signals Recap And Closing

SPEAKER_03 24:32

So, in summary, as we wrap up, we want to highlight what the three danger signals are.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yes, these three hidden danger signals: constantly monitoring your body, seeking certainty, and avoiding life until your symptoms go away. So these are three we we listed these off today because they are often missed by people. Right. Because as the title of this episode said, this can be hidden. And we want to start to feed our brain safety instead of danger.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah. And by doing this consistently, the long-term goal is for your chronic symptoms to reduce or become eliminated. And so thank you everyone for listening.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

And we'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Talk to you next time. Thanks for listening. For more free content, check out the links for our YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook accounts in the episode description.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

We wish you all healing.