Addressing Violence Against Women: Masculinity & Ending Gender-Based Violence

What if we could help end violence against women by getting to its root? In this powerful episode, I’m joined by Dr. Saed Hill to talk about toxic masculinity, accountability, and how men can be part of the solution. This is a conversation every man needs to hear—so please listen, reflect, and share it with every man you know.

Dr. Saed Hill, Ph.D. can be reached on LinkedIn or at saed.d.hill@gmail.com. See here for more from Dr. Hill.

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Transcript

 Many men are feeling a lot of romantic and social rejection, so they're feeling heartbroken. They're getting ghosted by people on social media or on dating apps and things like that. They're feeling frustrated with dating, so that's where the Manosphere sort of comes into play to kind of say, well blame women for that.

Blame feminism for that. Hey, brave one. Welcome to the Aware and Prepared Podcast. I'm your host, Mandy Pratt, trauma-informed, resilient speaker, domestic violence victim advocate, and narcissistic abuse survivor. Here we keep it real with true crime stories and real world strategies to prevent emotional and physical harm.

My guests and I share a mix of insight and survivor grit, all to help you feel safer, trust yourself more deeply. And live with greater peace and power. Let's trade fear for freedom and step into the peace that you deserve.

Well, welcome into today's episode. I'm asking you to enter this episode with curiosity. What if we could completely wipe out violence against all genders? What if we could wipe out violence against women? Let's get to the root of it. Did you know that 96% of people prosecuted for domestic violence in the US are men?

According to the Department of Justice and globally, 82% of women killed in intimate partner Homicides are killed by men. The world health organizations states that intimate partner and sexual violence. Are mostly perpetrated by men against women. This isn't just a problem, it's an epidemic. So what's going on?

Let's hear from an expert on what some of the root cause is. Dr. Saeed, Derek Hill, PhD is a counseling psychologist and independent consultant who specializes in the promotion of pro-social masculinities and wellness. As a means of violence prevention. He provides trainings one-on-one coaching and strategic consulting on the topic of expansive and restrictive masculinities, and has also been featured on several podcasts.

And other forms of media addressing the broad topics of domestic and global prevention. Divesting from the manosphere and how advancing technology like AI is influencing men and boys online. Dr. Hill works with national orgs, school districts, higher education institutions, nonprofits, and other communities to train staff, facilitate workshops, design curricula, promote bystander intervention, and manage re.

Respondent support and alternative resolution processes. Dr. Hill also advised the White House Task Force to address online harassment and abuse. He serves as a member of the Boys and Girls Club of New York City's Professional Advisory Council was a board member of the American Psychological Associations Society for the Psychological.

Study of men and masculinities for two years, and served as a director of prevention and masculine engagement at Northwestern University for six years. Dr. Hill earned his PhD from the University of Missouri, Kansas City and completed his doctoral internship at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

In his spare time, he enjoys psychoanalyzing trashy reality tv, obsessing about fantasy football, kayaking, and attempting sometimes successfully to cook his mother's best Goya knees, food recipes.

So welcome back to the Aware and Prepared Podcast everybody. I am so excited to have a very, super special guest with me. So we have Dr. Hill. Thank you so much for being here. I. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. Thanks. So I met him on a webinar with Adam Dodge. So if we go way back, I met Adam when I did my domestic violence victim advocacy training back at Laura's house.

So he was. Just coming out of that and starting out on his own specialty that he does now where he's working with end tab is what he's developed. So it's about ending, you know, digital abuse and talking about all of that. And he had Dr. Hill on with him with a webinar. So I, that's how I met you. So I'm so glad I listened to that webinar.

I learned so much, so much about it. Um, the webinar was about dating in the AI era. I will for sure link to the other episodes that, um, I had Adam on 'cause we're talking about ending. Abuse through the internet. Um, so I will reshare those. But yeah, that's how I met you. And then you talk about how the manosphere and new technologies are sustaining and amplifying gender-based violence and harassment.

So you talk about practical solutions to address these challenges and how we can better engage our boys and men as partners in ending violence across the globe. So thank you. Absolutely. Super important work. All very light stuff, right? I know, right? Yeah, yeah. But we will definitely have some takeaways, like actionable takeaways that people can walk away with and.

I just always love when I can, you know, have all kinds of genders coming in and helping with this issue because it's such a big, big issue. And the majority of people being abused are women and. Women are tired and scared of having to always watch your back, carry your key with it between your, you know, your fingers and do all this stuff, which it is important.

So I'm not making light of that, but I think on the other side of it, we need to be addressing. Root cause. And so that's why I wanted to have you on here and we really appreciate your time. So I guess we can start out with, can you explain to us like what is the manosphere? Some people might have heard what I just said and be like, huh, what is that?

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So the Manosphere is kind of, it's online, it's an online community and it's sort of a, a loose sort of network of online communities that promote really. Things like male supremacy, anti-feminism, um, just outright misogyny. So it's, um, a complex network of folks from people might, uh, remember from really like early 2010s sort of pickup artists.

Right. So these men who train men and boys in how to pick, quote unquote pick up women, and often these, uh, men are talking about things like nagging. So just trying to subtly or overtly putting women down to decrease sort of self-esteem because that'll make them easier, quote unquote, targets, right? A lot of.

Predator and fray sort of conversations. But there's also folks like men going their own way, um, or, uh, mig tal, which is like, uh, a group of men who really kinda are divesting sort of from women altogether, um, for various reasons, right? But there's also like manosphere. Specific men in the manosphere who really promote, uh, some of these beliefs.

Right? So these can be people from like white supremacist organizations. It could be even political entities, the Andrew Tates of the world. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. Might be the main person that people might think of who's very overtly in the manosphere. Um, but a lot of it is offering. Very rigid ideas about what it means to be men, but more specifically, it's about the, there's threats to men and not all, there's not allowing, there's not, society's not allowing men and boys to be men and boys.

And the reason for that are is things like feminism and women are to blame for those sorts of things. So, so again, there's not one space where you, you go, I don't think that there's like a. manosphere.com or something like that. But it's definitely made up of a lot of different organizations, people, um, online, in different formats that are really promoting this sort of hateful ideology that is really harmful to all people, not just women, right?

It comes around to everybody. Absolutely. Exactly. Yeah. Thanks for explaining that. Yeah. So in your work, I mean, you are super busy out there doing all of these things, consulting, doing one-to-one, and working with different universities, and now doing all of this work with ai. So how are you seeing AI affect all of this?

Even further. Yeah, for sure. So I think AI in particular is, so I think one of the things, let me back up and say to understand even the, the way, the role that AI is playing in all of this, we have to sort of understand what is bringing boys and men. I. Maybe to the manosphere, let's use that for an example.

Mm-hmm. Or even if we don't wanna say specifically about the manosphere, what's bringing men and boys online in general. Right. Because we know that boys and men are sort of chronically online. Mm-hmm. And many men and boys are finding themselves in the manosphere and online. For many reasons. I think like broadly speaking, there's a lot of feelings of feeling lost.

Uh, a little aimless, very lonely and frustrated and isolated, I think are some of those things that come to mind. Very anxious about what it means to be men. And I think where the feminist sort of, I. Everything comes into play here. Mm-hmm. Is the idea that I think a lot of men and boys are seeing the ways that, uh, very much state sponsored ways that, uh, women and girls are advancing.

Right. There's been a lot of initiatives for women and girls. A lot of I. Changing dynamics in society where women and girls are more, have more agency, are going to college more, right. Are making more money. And these, and that's, this is the flowery image that sort of is painted about the, the state of being women and girls in society when we know there's, there's issues still.

Sure. But, um, at a time when, uh, we're seeing a lot of these advancements with women and girls, I think a lot of men are feeling rather lost because their position sort of in society, those roles that they've always played, they. Aren't the only ones playing those roles anymore. They're not always the quote unquote breadwinner in relationships anymore.

They're not always sort of dictating terms or even, you know, in positions of power and authority in the same ways that they've seen themselves in before. So I think. Men and boys are particular looking for their compass of what it means to be men and boys right now, and feeling rather lost in that.

Mm-hmm. So when you're thinking about a lot of the mental health struggles that men and boys are experiencing, you know, you're talking about anxiety, depression, social isolation, and many men lack. Healthy coping mechanisms. Mm-hmm. Um, or maybe even strong male models, um, in their lives. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, at the same time, a lot of the ways that we might cope with our mental health struggles are also often stigmatized.

So therapy can be really stigmatized for men. Sure. Right. Really trying to like talk to people, you know, or ex uh, expressing emotions, A range of emotions. You might be called soft in that way, and that's a horrible thing to be called or sensitive, which. I, I, I've been called sensitive my whole life. It might be because I'm a Scorpio.

Who knows if folks believe in that, but like, I, there's nothing wrong with being sensitive. Right. But there, it's often these things are stigmatized for men. Sure. Right, right. And so, you know, these men who are feeling lonely and isolated, I think dating comes into play here too, coming into the AI part of the conversation, right?

Where many, uh, men are feeling a lot of romantic and social rejection. So they're feeling heartbroken. They're getting ghost. By people on social media or on dating apps and things like that. They're feeling frustrated with dating. So that's where the manosphere sort of comes into play to kind of say, well blame women for that.

Blame feminism for that incel. Right. Some of your listeners may know what incel are right for. These are involuntary celibates, which really believes society has rigged, sort of the dating. Atmosphere against men. Um, and it fuels a lot of resentment. And so all of these things are creating sort of a network of psychology for men where they're just feeling like getting pushed further and further deeper into isolation.

And that's where they're finding themselves online. I. Mm-hmm. So I think that that's where the AI part comes in, where a lot of men are kind of saying like, oh my gosh, this relationships with women, period, or even human beings in general, are so hard right now for us, for a myriad of reasons. Right? And so we're turning to AI for this sort of thing, AI companions and girlfriends.

Mm-hmm. Who. When I talk to men and boys about their use of ai, it's like, well, what do you like about ai, companionship, um, girlfriends or whatever, wives. And they say things like, well, they do whatever I want them to do. They, uh, never fight with me. They never argue with me. They never, uh, make me feel less than.

And, and all of these things. Right. And for listeners of this, and I know for you, Mandy, that's probably. You know, setting off a lot of alarm bells when you hear people say that, that's what's attracting them right. To a relationship. Right. But that's what they're looking for. They're looking for a sense of control, I think, and not being rejected, being accepted.

And AI is offering them unconditional sort of regard and acceptance at all times. But we know that that's sort of a lot of short-term gratification, but comes at a long-term relational cost. Yes. I remember at the end of the webinar we were understanding that, you know, people come to these AI relationships 'cause they're lonely.

Yeah. And they feel better short term, but long term as they feel even worse. Exactly. Exactly. Because you know, I think when you start to really realize, um, AI. This on these online platforms, and even the manosphere of this network is designed to keep you online. It's designed to yes, feed you what it thinks you want to hear at all times, and it's for profit, right?

If you're not on their platforms, they're not making money. So they're gonna do things to try to keep you there. And so often men are using this technology and they might feel a little bit better for the short term, but then they start to feel even more deeply isolated because. This is not how human dynamics and interactions work, right.

Like this. Um, there's a lot of give and take in relationships. There's conflict in relationships. Exactly. Um, there's messiness in relationship, and so it's just making people feel worse because they're trying to, you know, engage in these relational dynamics with non-human entities. Mm-hmm. And they're not getting a full range of what it means to be human.

And I think that really impacts them. Right, right. Thank you for explaining that. So instead of maybe doing the AI and doing a shortcut, what is a better solution? For helping, like in the long term? Yeah, I mean, I think there could be a number of things for men. I mean, so I, I work a lot with, you know, men on, uh, like a myriad of, of issues.

So a lot of the folks that I've worked with are I. You know, anywhere from boys from eight to, you know, college age and even older. And I think a few things, uh, reign pretty true for them. I think one of the things is like, what are, like identifying what they're even looking for, um, in general. So what are boys and men looking for?

And I think they are looking for. Information on what it means to be boys and men. The amount of boys and men, uh, I talk to who have never had a real conversation with another boy or man about what it means to be, that is really striking to me. So as a clinician, um, I know a lot of clinicians who might be listening to this, it, it comes from, uh, literature, uh, in medicine, I believe that was called, uh, cultural mistrust.

But it was this idea that even clinicians who are say white. Should bring up or can bring up race with, uh, their patients who are people of color, for example. Mm-hmm. Um, black and brown people to talk about that. There might be racial dynamics between the two of them because we know Sure that there is some differences in care, even across race for, for different folks and even compounded if you're a woman.

So, mm-hmm. There's these dynamics where we're talking about people in real positions of authority and power. Have almost a responsibility to bring up identity dynamics between you, because there might be differences. So for me, for example, as a man, when I'm working with women, I usually talk about that.

I'll bring up like, Hey, and all, by the way, I don't know, I, I mean, I am a man, so there might be differences in how we think about things, and I might miss. Things and you know, I apologize for that, but like I have my limitations too. But I want you to see that we can talk about that and I'm gonna be open to that sort of conversation.

And what I'm finding a lot of my colleagues who are, whether you're teachers or clinicians or whatever, or even just human beings day to day in the lives of boys and men are rarely talking to them about what that experience looks like for them. So I think that's sort of numero uno on this, is that like we do not have a.

Great information about the psychology of men and masculinities that's pretty mainstream for them to listen to. So part of that is like men and boys looking for information about anxiety and really anger. So I find that a lot of men and boys are coming to me talking about like, I feel angry a lot. And what's that about?

Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about where that anger might be coming from. Part of it might be a conversation about how society sort of allows men or gives a lot of space for men to be. That's acceptable almost for men to be angry. Totally. Right? Yeah. As an emotion, but. We rarely then, and, and I don't necessarily think anger is a negative thing or anything.

These are emotions. These are human emotions. We feel anger. Mm-hmm. But what we don't get information about is what often anger is sort of masking for us. Totally. So underneath that anger are things like loneliness, um, anxiety, shame. Yeah. You know, and all these things. And, and anger is sort of the quickest, easiest thing to access for a lot of us as men and boys societally, right?

Yeah. But. We're often punished for that too, right? Like, we get incarcerated for these things. We get, uh, canceled for these sorts of things, right? Like when we can't necessarily navigate our anger. So there's a lot of mixed messages. Uh, I think about how anger is even wielded or the message that like, you should respond violently.

That shows a lot of power and strength. And so I think like men and boys, so, so I think like to, to, you know, getting back to your question, I think it's all about like, well. Can we identify what men and boys are looking for? They're looking for this sort of mental health information about what it just means to be boys and men.

They're looking for how to handle and cope with emotions. Things like what we call EQ instead of iq, which is emotional intelligence, right? So how do we. Manage our emotions. How do we allow them to wash over us? How do we understand that our anger does not have to define us? Our sadness doesn't define us, we're humans.

Right? At the end of the day. Yeah. Um, they're looking for a sense of belonging as well. So can we provide them the manosphere and is is providing that They're saying like, Hey, we love you. Come here. Right. And listen, you know, be with us. Right. But that isn't true love actually. Right. What we know about the manosphere is that like.

It says, well, we only accept you if you behave in these rigid ways about what it means to be men. Right. And accept your lot in life, which is hierarchical, meaning like you have to also accept that we are, many men are at the top of this hierarchy, and you have to find your place in this hierarchy. Mm-hmm.

And if you don't buy into these rigid beliefs about being men. Mm-hmm. Like you always have to make the money. You have to only have sex with, you have to have a lot of sex and a lot of sex with women. Right. Or. Like, you know, it's all about this anger and all this other stuff. If you don't buy into that, you have to look a certain way to be a certain height and all this stuff.

Like if you don't buy into that, then you're ostracized anyway from even this community, right? Mm-hmm. So that's also transactional and very predicated on. Uh, buying into these rigid beliefs and stuff. So, so I think what we have to show is that like, okay, this is offering a sense of belonging, but where can we offer a sense of belonging to these boys and men that are not this, right.

Right. Where can you offer that, where you can offer passion, offer accountability to boys and men? They are looking to be held accountable for poor behaviors and stuff like that. I hear that from boys and men, but what doesn't work always is that how punitive ral it can often be. Can we hold boys and men accountable for how they harm us?

And harm each other in ways that feel a little bit more like affirmation or a little bit more compassionate. Let's find ways to do that too. So I think that, you know, we have to kind of understand what they're looking for and provide that to them. Right. I remember I, a couple podcast episodes ago I had on, um, nada York and she is.

She used to be a probation officer and she developed different, um, curriculum. Mm-hmm. And they did a study in the prison and they were finding that a lot of, uh, the prisoners not like the hardened criminals, but the other ones just honestly like, didn't know how to deal with their emotions and communicate with people.

And, and so they learn that and. The rate of them not returning was high. And so, yeah. Um, agreed. I feel like, oh my gosh. And I just think like, back to my own story and think of the person who was abusive to me like. Was abused as a child. And that doesn't excuse the behavior, but it helps you understand. Um, and you just think, gosh, like if they would've gotten true help and known how to express their emotions and.

Actually deal with life, like in a real way, not anger, not, you know, all of that. So, yeah, just so important. Yeah. Well, let me say something about that quickly is like, I really appreciate that example in, in you bringing up sort of the justice, the, the prison system in this way, or the jail system in this way because.

I've done plenty of work actually in, in prisons in the past where I was asked, actually, when I used to work in Chicago, I was asked to go to one of the, the prominent prisons in the area in Illinois. I. And I was brought in to talk to the inmates about masculinity and healthy masculinity because they got a choice to have any topic, uh, talked about and discussed.

And the men collectively in there chose masculinity that they wanted to talk about anger and masculinity. And they brought me in and. All of them had a similar story to what you just said, Mandy, right? All of them had sort of a similar story of, uh, their own abuse, their own neglect, and the history and of violence and how, you know, we learn to, we get comfortable with violence, some of us in our lives, and that's what we know.

And often when I talk to my, um, you know, folks I've supported in the past about is that which is familiar, is comfortable. Right, exactly. And so if you're familiar with something, even if it's not good for you, um, or helpful to you, it, it might still feel very comfortable for you and that's the space that they're in and doing something more pro socially like.

You know, going, getting educated about your feelings or talking to other people or coping differently that isn't drugs, alcohol, or violence or something like that Right. Can feel so uncomfortable Totally. For people. Especially when you don't have the support to do it, or especially if you're gonna be judged for doing it differently.

Yeah. Um, and so I think that that's a real key part of it. And one last thing I'll say about this is about the compassion part of it. I've used that word a couple of times. Look, I wanna be very clear that. Having compassion for many of these boys and men can be extremely difficult, especially if we've been harmed Exactly.

By boys and ourselves. Right, right. And I actually don't expect everyone to have compassion for folks like I get it, because compassion is a process and truthfully, it might be hard to be compassionate for a man. If you've maybe been harmed by men and then say, never experienced a true apology from a man in your life.

Right. Or seeing what accepting responsibility and accountability really looks like from men. Right. But that does happen and it does exist. And so for those of us that can find the room Yeah. And do have the room for that kind of compassion, it is really vital to this. Yeah. But I don't wanna. You know, make excuses for anybody, and I don't want anyone thinking that they have to always have this sort of compassion.

I would like people to figure that out and be able to do that, but that's a process and that can be a really long process for people. Yeah, right. Tell us again the type of work that you do and how they can reach you. So I'm a full-time counseling psychologist. And consultant. So a lot of what I do is sort of specializing in promoting a more prosocial aspects or versions of masculinity as sort of a means of violence prevention.

You can always reach me at my email, which is sayeed d Do Hill, so it's SAED, um, dot dHill@gmail.com. Cool. And And you can reach me there or find me on LinkedIn side D Hill. I'm on there. I highly recommend that people listening would follow you there and then get in touch. Well, thank you so much. We appreciate your time, like I said, and we appreciate you.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Mandy. Appreciate it. This is such a good conversation. It's helping us get to the heart of things and be able to support all genders through this. And work together as a team. Remember how I always say that women's self-defense is a community issue? It's not solely a burden for women only.

So in this part one, we learned about what men often experience and learn online and in many social circles. He explained what healthy masculinity can look like. So hang tight with me because next week we're gonna talk about real life examples of what we can say or do when we witness somebody perpetuating unhelpful or abusive ideas.

So some kind of bystander intervention. And Dr. Hill shares a specific example of what he witnessed when he was standing in line and how he handled that like in a loving way with truth. Um, and not inflammatory, but just really supportive. So I thought it was super creative and ingenious and I can't wait for you to hear it next week.

So stay tuned and I will join you next week. Thanks for being here on the Aware and Prepared Podcast. Don't forget to hit Follow that little plus sign in your app in the top right, ensures you never miss an episode.