Trauma Responses Explained: Understanding Perfectionism, People-Pleasing and Anger

Mandi and Forensic Psychologist, Ashley Wasserburger, explain how behaviors like perfectionism, anger, and people-pleasing are often trauma responses, not personality flaws. They break down the different “faces of trauma” and share why curiosity, patience, and safety matter more than judgment.

This conversation helps normalize trauma adaptations and reminds listeners that healing begins when people feel safe, supported, and empowered with choice.

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RESOURCES

Ashley works at Working Against Violence, Inc. (WAVI), a domestic violence and advocacy organization based in Rapid City, South Dakota. 

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Transcript

 Hey, brave one. Welcome to the Aware and Prepared Podcast. I'm your host, Mandy Pratt, trauma-informed, resilient speaker, domestic violence victim advocate, and narcissistic abuse survivor. Here we keep it real with true crime stories and real. Strategies to prevent emotional and physical harm. My guests and I share a mix of insight and survivor grit, all to help you feel safer, trust yourself more deeply, and live with greater peace and power.

Let's trade fear for freedom and step into the peace that you deserve.

Hey, welcome back to the Aware and Prepared Podcast. I have Ashley Wasser Berger on here with us. Hi Ashley. 

Hey Mandy. Thanks for having me. 

Sure. So I wanted to read her bio first before we get started and after. So I'll tell you the really cool way that we met in person. So, Ashley Wasser Berger is the education Director at Working Against Violence Inc.

Ashley earned her bachelor's degree from Black Hills State University where she double majored in psych and sociology with a certificate in criminology. She then went on to earn her. Her Master's degree in forensic psychology from John J. College of Criminal Justice in New York City. Her research is on cognitive biases, violence prevention, successful psychopathy and criminal backgrounds of serial sexual offenders.

Ashley has provided direct services to survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault, human trafficking, and stalking As a case manager at. Wavy. Currently as the education director, she provides training to youth and adults on forms of violence, trauma responses, healthy relationships, et cetera.

Ashley is proud of her work, empowering youth to create a safer future as an adult mentor on youth-led initiatives, through her education and experience in this field, she has been able to gain several perspectives on perpetration, victimization, trauma advocacy, prevention, and multidisciplinary community partner connection.

So we're super glad to have you here. 

So Ashley, you and I met in Nebraska a couple months ago and I was giving the keynote and you were also speaking, and we both felt like, wow. Oh my gosh.

That was like a perfect pairing, right? Because you were explaining exactly what I was talking about. The behaviors that I was just sharing honestly and openly about what I had lived through. So it was so interesting to hear your presentation and I asked you if you would come share that with us today.

So you graciously did that. So thank you so much. 

Yeah, it was really great to see how kind of the research driven part of what I'm talking about with the trauma informed and trauma adaptations went perfectly into your lived experience. I think that really shows the power of this information so that we can normalize those responses so that people can have less bias and impatience with each other and with themselves through healing.

Yep, exactly.

So talking a little bit about trauma adaptation, there's lots of different forms of trauma and I think it's so important that people know there's no right or wrong way to experience trauma. There's no right or wrong way to heal from that. All of these different adaptations just help you survive that, and so we really want to decrease the bias and increase that curiosity and patience with ourselves and others.

So there's so many different effects of trauma as you talk about on your podcast all the time. But there's the physical side of trauma, so things like psychosomatic symptoms, so having stomach aches and headaches and chronic muscle issues. Having all of that fatigue in parts of in your body, that trauma, it sits, and that's one of those effects.

And then of course there's the emotional side. So if we're angry, that's an okay response. Sometimes people just look at trauma responses as someone crying. And we talk about this a lot with grand juries. So if someone's not crying on the stand, it doesn't mean that they weren't impacted. 

Hmm. 

Maybe someone is super technical and they're really logical and they're reading it like it's someone else's story.

Mm-hmm. 

Maybe someone is angry. They might be angry at the court system. They might be angry at the situation, they might be angry at themselves. Mm-hmm. Might be angry at the perpetrator. 

Mm-hmm. 

There's so many different emotions that people can have, and all of those are valid emotions to have. 

Exactly. I remember too, being in court, having to show up and go through all of that, and then have the abuser sit right there.

Like, well, this person appeared telephonically from prison, but nonetheless. Um, and also in person actually sometimes, but it was like so traumatizing, so you can't judge, you know? And then I was told, you know, keep it together. They just wanna hear the facts and it's like, oh my gosh. Okay. 

Yeah. 

So hard.

That's the biggest thing that we do when we're working with survivors going to court 

mm-hmm. 

Is being prepared to be in the same room with that person. 

Mm-hmm. 

And it's so intimidating having to tell your story in front of a bunch of strangers. 

Yeah. 

Even existing in the courtroom is anxiety inducing.

Yeah. 

And so trying to debunk some of those myths and make sure that there is, that, that empathy to that response. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah, it's a huge process and mm-hmm everyone who goes through it is so strong and we just wanna be there to support them and, you know, bring them through it. 

Yeah,

um, a really big one that I also like to talk about is different behaviors, because oftentimes because shamed a lot more and.

How these different coping mechanisms, even if they're unhealthy, helped us adapt and help us survive through that trauma. So oftentimes we look at things like substance use and alcoholism. We look at addiction and people are really quick sometimes to shame those things. They say, well, that's not healthy.

You just need to get through that. You need to change your lifestyle. But looking at addiction, oftentimes that is a coping mechanism that maybe they had more access to. 

Mm-hmm. 

It's something that works faster. It helps you to dissociate yourself. It helps you to get away from that scenario. 

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes that's the only thing people have access to and it's the most effective at that time. 

Yeah. 

And that helps them survive through that trauma. Then when they're out of that survival mode and now they're into coping and healing because of addiction, it happens within the brain. It is something, it is a tool that people have.

So I always say it's a tool in the tool belt. We want to add as many tools as we can, and hopefully over time through adding those tools, we can start grabbing those healthier coping tools. 

Mm-hmm. 

But because we've been using those unhealthy ones for so long, we're more likely to sort of automatically go to those and grab those tools, 

right?

So, so we always wanna approach those behaviors with more curiosity and that empathy and patience and just help people get more tools instead of shaming and blaming the tools that they have used in the past. 

Right. And I know a lot times too, like we need, so I. Uh, with an addiction, you know, it's worked.

And so as you're adding in these other tools. Obviously, like one of the slides that I shared in my keynote was healing happens in safe places. Yeah. So if I'm still experiencing post-separation abuse, it's gonna be so hard to try to move out of that addiction into something else. It's like I'm walking onto.

Into thin air and supposedly there's like a stepping stone there, but I can't trust that. You know what I mean? Yeah. But yeah, as we start to feel more safe, then we can trust, you know, the people that are trying to help us that have provided those, um, the stepping stones. So, yeah. 

Yeah, absolutely. We work in a shelter setting, and so I always think of our advocates and our 24 7 staff and working in that shelter as that stabilization piece.

You really can't start to move forward if you don't know where your next meal is coming from. If you're safe. And so really establishing that safety is that first step, just like you said. Mm-hmm. And you need to know what that next step is. You need to feel safe enough to take that next step. Yeah. So that's where victims advocates comes in.

That's where survivor mentors come in. Credible messengers. 

Mm-hmm. 

Support groups where you can really see, okay, there is another step. I feel safe enough to take that now, and I have supports around me. 

Mm-hmm. 

Because especially through things like domestic violence, human trafficking, it's so isolating.

Mm-hmm. 

And that's intentional by the abuser. 

Right. 

To isolate someone from all of their support systems. 

Mm-hmm. 

So coming out of that, you feel so alone. 

Mm-hmm. 

And so getting those, those supports can really add some of that stability to begin healing. 

We also talk about things like, um, spiritual or identity effects of trauma.

So looking at things like changing worldview. Now you are a survivor. That may not be an identity that you had before. It might feel like you're disconnected from other people who haven't experienced this. It, again, can feel really isolating because you're, you've gone through something. That you feel like no one else has been through or you feel like no one else can understand.

Mm-hmm. 

That's where those support groups, survivor mentors, all of that can really come into play to help establish more of that safety and that feeling of identity. 

Right. And I remember too, for myself, when I was coming out of it, nobody really got it except for like just a couple people who had been through it and.

The person that my ex partner, um, he was very charming and manipulative, so everybody thought like I had the problem. So, um, I did feel very alone and I came from a religious background too, so it was hard because I had that extra pressure of like, no, you can't divorce, you know, but, but I felt like if I didn't do that, I wouldn't send a clear message of.

This is a real break. Like this is a final thing. Um, and I remember, you know, at a certain point just being like, oh my gosh, like, okay. Like talking to God and being like, this is literally between me and you, and everybody I feel like is coming at this from their own experience, but this is something that I need to decide and you only and me only know the whole picture.

So that is kind of where I was at. And then of course, like you said, coming out of it, you know, um. You start to build a different identity and then of course trying to find yourself again after that. Like, who was I before? All of this stuff. So, yeah. 

Yeah, that, that spiritual abuse component is such a big one, right?

You can't, you can't divorce, you have to be the perfect wife. You have to, you have certain duties that you do. And so when you're looking at that through an abuse lens, it does make it really difficult to get out. 'cause that is also your community and that's also your. Belief system and your values in the world.

Mm-hmm. 

And so looking at those spiritual effects, which can be related to religion and might not be related to religion. Mm-hmm. Right. It's just any change in your worldview. 

Mm-hmm. 

So yeah, that's a really big part of that control and that strength to be able to say, I can still have. My values, I can still be part of a community that is supportive to me.

Mm-hmm. 

But not have that be used against me as that control. Right. 

Right. Exactly. 

Yeah. And that's also where we see sometimes, you know, we saw the anger we were talking about. So if we're rationalizing behaviors, which is part of our defense mechanisms. So in order to make sense of someone who loves us, someone who is supposed to support us, someone who is supposed to be our person hurting us and harming us, and controlling us, oftentimes we see the abuser will rationalize, rationalize the way their behavior by blaming the victim.

Oh yeah. 

And they'll do gaslighting and 

mm-hmm. 

You know, they're the crazy one. 

Mm-hmm. 

And they'll be this really charming person. Which is why we know that abuse is not about anger or about substance use, it's about control. 

Yep. 

But when we're looking at those patterns, we also see that the survivor blames themselves.

Mm-hmm. 

Because how do we make sense that this person who loves us would hurt us? So it must be something we're doing. I made them mad, it's my fault. 

Mm-hmm. 

So unfortunately both sides are really rationalizing what happened to blame the victim or survivor. 

Right, 

and that's a normal coping mechanism, but being able to get out of that and be able to understand that when people say it's not your fault, when people say, I believe you, those are the two biggest things someone can hear.

And it actually decreases post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms, I think by three times. Mm-hmm. 

Just 

someone responding with those and someone responding in a healthy way. 

I believe that. Can you repeat that again so people remember that? 

Yeah. So I believe you, and this isn't your fault. Also, thank you for telling me you don't need to be a counselor.

You don't need to be a professional. Those three things will go so far in making sure that that person feels supported. 

Mm-hmm. 

And then you can get them connected to other resources. 

Mm-hmm. 

But just those three things can decrease post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms by three times. 

Wow. 

And oftentimes they may not have told someone before.

They might not have been believed before. 

Yeah. 

And so really hearing that from a supportive person goes so far in that healing journey. 

Mm-hmm. A hundred percent.

Another big thing that I wanna talk about that I think isn't always. Mentioned is the social survival mechanisms. 

Hmm. 

So we call 'em faces of trauma and there's four primary faces of trauma. They're archetypes, so no one fits perfectly into one or another. 

Mm-hmm. 

But there's the perfectionist face of trauma.

So this is oftentimes someone who had a lot of responsibility thrust on them, especially when they were growing up. 

Mm-hmm. 

Someone who learned that their safety. And them being loved comes from their performance. 

Mm-hmm. 

And how well they've achieved something. 

Yep. 

So with that perfectionist, oftentimes they fear that vulnerability.

Mm-hmm. 

And so they don't often reach out. They oftentimes will cope through staying really busy. So our workaholics or people who are always doing something. 

Mm-hmm. 

So they might intellectualize or compartmentalize, just stay really busy so they don't have to think about those things. 

Right. 

Um, and I always ask, how can we sur support these individuals?

Mm. I think a big thing for our perfectionists is just knowing that there's space to fail. Right. You don't need to be perfect to be loved, to be respected, to meet your needs. Mm-hmm. And it's okay to have some of that vulnerability. 

Mm-hmm. 

And you don't, you can do it alone. 

Mm-hmm. 

We know that. Right.

You've shown that you've done all of these impressive things, but you don't have to do it alone. 

Mm-hmm. 

And that, that self-care is really a big part to that success. 

Oh yeah. A hundred, a hundred percent. Yeah. I feel like I, I still kept your flyer from that. So I have the four faces of trauma in front of me, and the perfectionist was definitely me and I was raising a.

Child by myself, you know, like a toddler. So like you said, you know, and I was trying to do that within, you know, post-separation abuse and having the FBI at my door. So it was like, that was my way forward was I didn't feel like I had an option to not, you know, keep it together. And I think that's what got me stuck in fight or flight for so long.

Yeah. And, and that's so hard too when you do have someone dependent on you. You have a kid and so you're like, I have to keep everything together. I have to make sure that they're doing okay and I have to be doing okay. And so I know there are a few different, like trauma-informed caregiving resources out there.

I'm sure there are throughout different states. Mm-hmm. But just looking up how can I be going through this and also support my child and when is it okay to get. Some extra help and how do I trust that extra help? 

Mm-hmm. 

After something has happened. 

Right? And 

I don't have any children myself. I can't imagine how difficult that is.

But definitely using those resources and getting that support, and I can definitely see how that would be related to that, that perfectionism and 

Right. 

Wanna keep everything together. 

Right. And like you said, you can do it alone, but you're gonna break your body or whatever. Or something's. Something's gotta give.

Right. 

Yeah. Something that really helped me. I'm also a perfectionist face of trauma. Um. My workplace that I work now with the shelter really because we work in vicarious trauma, because we work in helping fields. They worked in self-care as part of the job. 

Love it. 

They said, you can't do the job without self-care.

If you're doing it without self-care, you are not doing it correctly. Wow. And that really like turned my perfectionist brain on and said, okay. I need to schedule self-care. This needs be part of my routine. I need to be the best I can be at self-care. 

Oh, I can relate. That's funny. 

And And you don't wanna gamify it, you know, you don't want self-care to be more stress on yourself.

Mm-hmm. 

But for our perfectionists, I think that can really help kind of turn that on. Instead of thinking, well that's for other people, or that's just gonna be taking away time from what I need to do. 

Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's something I say a lot to, and people who hear my podcast often might be tired of this, but I always say like, self-compassion is really the key.

Right. Um. And I didn't know that. I didn't know that until I was having to get unstuck from fight or flight. Um, so really paying attention to that and, and not just. Like it goes beyond self-care, I guess is what I'm trying to say, is it's even like checking in with myself. Like even now, you know, do you need to eat?

Do you need to go, just sit down for a minute. Do you need to, you know, it's that type of stuff. Yeah, because my survival mechanism in my brain was just like, go, go, go. Hustle, hustle, hustle. That's how you make it, and that's how you, you know, are successful with. Like living, like surviving and raising a kid and, and even, you know, into the workspace.

So, um, it's been really interesting 

and when you stop, you then have to deal with everything. 

Yeah. 

That's why that distracted coping works so well. 

Exactly. Yeah. 

Um, making sure that we're balancing that destructive coping with the active coping and being able to do those. You know, whether it's on your own and whether it's journaling or whether it's just those self check-ins, breathing, eating, doing the basic things 

right, 

or if it's talking to someone, going to a counselor, talking to a survivor, mentor.

Know you've gotta do both of those things. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel like it's, for me, it's been all of those things, doing those things and also getting counseling for forever, but also the somatic type of stuff. So like moving my body. Um, and I talk a lot about that, but it was for me, all of those things. 

Yeah.

And are. I guess moving into our next face of trauma, um, our anger, face of trauma is one that I think people have the hardest time with, and I think people have the best intentions, but oftentimes there is a lot of bias associated with the anger, face of trauma. Well, the anger phase of trauma looks like someone who is.

Cynical who has been on their own surviving for so long, and unfortunately, usually these survivors are from complex trauma. So things like human trafficking where there are multiple perpetrators, multiple trusted people who have hurt them in the past. 

Right. 

So looking at that, you know, attack them before they get the chance to attack you.

Looking at, you know, demanding things instead of asking for things, because that has worked for them in the past. And so meeting that with curiosity and meeting that with patients, I'm gonna say that a billion times, curiosity and patience is gonna be so important to building that relationship. Because oftentimes what we see is there's a bit of that black and white thinking, so you might start to trust someone.

You might tell them everything about your life. You might have a really fantastic conversation with someone, and then the next moment they're pushing you away and they're, you know, saying something really mean or they're, you know, whatever it might be, and trying to push you away. And that's because in the past.

That trust has only been used against them. 

Mm-hmm. 

They just handed you so much ammunition, they just loaded your weapon against them, and so how are they going to trust you now? 

Mm-hmm. 

And making sure that people don't take that personal 

mm-hmm. 

It's a survival mechanism. It's normal. 

Yeah. 

And so how do we continue to stay there?

How do we continue to be there and continue to provide that support? Of course, making sure that our own boundaries are respected, making sure that we're safe. All of those things are extremely important as well. 

Mm-hmm. 

But that consistent presence, even when there's that pushback, is so important to building that relationship and building that trust up with a face of trauma, of anger.

Right. And how would you like say that to them? How would you respond? Like if they're doing that to you, how would you, how, what words would you use, I guess. 

I think discussing boundaries in a way that doesn't seem like control. Oftentimes, like if someone works in a shelter setting, there's rules and that can feel like just another person trying to control them.

Mm. 

And so whether it's rules and guidelines for your organization, or whether it's just your personal relationship 

mm-hmm. 

Making sure that it doesn't feel like a control tactic. Mm. Instead creating that buy-in, you know, here's. What I think would help, or here's a guideline and this is why I think it exists.

Mm-hmm. What do you think? Oftentimes if you ask people like in a more, you know, clinical setting or in a shelter setting or victim advocates. 

Mm-hmm. 

If you ask them what makes you feel safe, oftentimes you can point back to guidelines you already have set, and you can say, this is where this comes from. I just wanna make sure that you are safe, that everyone here is safe.

So really setting forward boundaries, whether they're personal boundaries or institutional boundaries, from a point of that trust and safety mm-hmm. I think will really create that buy-in. And it's not something that, you know, always works overnight. 

Mm-hmm. 

Oftentimes it will help to do that deescalation.

Mm-hmm. 

But again, it's just that consistency. 

Hmm. Yeah.

Uh, but yeah, I think ultimately also empowering them, letting them make their own choices. 

Hmm. Yeah. 

And really looking at where some of those behaviors or feelings are coming from. 

Mm-hmm. 

So knowing that sometimes there's place, so that's gonna be another survival mechanism. Another psychological one.

Where we're looking at redirecting strong emotions to someone who is safe. 

Hmm. 

So I think we all do this to some extent. So say you had an issue at work, you can't yell at your boss because you'll get fired. But then you come home and you have safe family members, and now you're really upset with them and you don't know why.

Mm-hmm. 

They didn't do anything wrong. You're not upset with them. But it's this displacement. I can't process my feelings in this setting because it is unsafe for me. 

Hmm. 

So now I'm gonna process it in a setting that is more safe, 

right? 

So if you are that safe friend, that safe family member, or you're that safe advocate, now how are they gonna process those emotions?

They're finally safe enough to do that. So sometimes it can feel like these targeted attacks to us. Mm-hmm. But ultimately it's saying, I'm trusting you with these emotions, but I don't know how to express them. 

Mm-hmm. 

The way that I want to. 

And is that what you would say to them? Like, look, I know that you are doing that, what you're just saying?

Yeah. It depends on the relationship. Um, sometimes, sometimes psychological defense mechanisms can feel really. Clinical and depending if someone has had a lot of experience with counseling or they've been in substance abuse treatment programs, sometimes people react. I guess they're just reactive to clinical language.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because it can feel controlling, it can feel very assumptive as well. 

Mm-hmm. 

So you don't know how I'm feeling. You don't know why I am doing what I'm doing. You are just trying to analyze me and control me. Mm. So it really depends on that relationship. 

Sure. 

I think you can have open conversations, even just asking them how was your day?

Mm-hmm. 

You know, taking a step back if you are having a disagreement. Taking a step back to talk about just the general feelings of it. Maybe something happened earlier in the day that we can actually address. 

Yeah. 

And that's gonna help to both distract from that current moment mm-hmm. Of that escalation.

Right. 

And then also it's going to help them feel heard and understood through those and realize mm-hmm. Oh. I'm not mad at you. I just had a really bad day. 

Right. Yeah. 

But I think just going into the, the normal everyday conversations mm-hmm. Of you know, what happened at work today, how are you feeling?

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, and then go back to if it is a current situation, that's an issue. Mm-hmm. 

Talk 

about that. 

Yeah, that makes sense. 

Also making sure bodily needs are met. So, um, totally. I think in like teaching backgrounds, oftentimes people hear the hungry, angry, lonely, tired, the whole, um, obviously if someone has me, if someone hasn't slept, especially when we're talking about trauma.

So someone has nightmares at night, they haven't slept in days. Or they're still in that survival mode of not knowing where their next meal is coming from. Mm-hmm. Living in the crisis of poverty, living in an unsafe environment. 

Right. 

You know, addressing those things first. 

Mm-hmm. 

Making sure there's safety, making sure there's food, making sure they're breathing okay.

Right. 

You 

know, all of that is gonna go so far to deescalating that. 

Yep.

And then our next face of trauma is our people pleaser. So this is oftentimes, you know, I teach a lot of professionals who are working in advocacy, people who are helpers, teachers. Oftentimes the people pleaser tends to be the highest among those populations. Because they're so giving of themselves and they want to help everyone else.

Right. 

And so looking at the people pleaser, this is someone who really prioritizes other people's needs. Mm-hmm. Oftentimes at the expense of their own or just not recognizing their own. 

Mm-hmm. 

This can also be a survival mechanism based on appeasing. So we talk about fight, flight, or freeze as your body kicking in to keep you safe.

Mm-hmm. 

But then appease is gonna be more of that social behavior. 

Hmm. 

So if we're doing something that someone else wants because we feel unsafe to say no, or we feel like we're gonna be punished. 

Mm-hmm. 

Oftentimes that's where that people pleasing behavior comes from, especially in early childhood.

Yeah. 

And so this is a safety thing, just like all of these are. 

Mm-hmm. 

So how do we make sure that we feel safe, and then how do we make sure that our needs are also important to us? 

Mm-hmm. 

And that we have the confidence and the skills to be able to assert those needs and those boundaries. 

Right. 

So oftentimes with their people pleasers, um, they might also have really hard time making decisions on their own, thinking that other people know best for them, or trying to make sure that they're safe, that you're not gonna be mad at them, right?

If they make a different decision, 

right? 

So really empowering them that you know your life better than anyone. You know yourself better than anyone. So what is it that you wanna do and how can I support you in that? Instead of making that decision for them. 

Mm-hmm. 

Another thing is providing options. So here's a couple different options.

Here's some information about that. What are you interested in? What do you wanna do? And that way they can make an informed decision. That also works really well with our perfectionist who just want all of the information. 

Right. 

But giving a couple options so that they can then say, this is what I wanna do moving forward.

Mm-hmm. 

And then asking them what kind of support do you want out of that? Mm-hmm. I'm just here to be your cheerleader. I'm here to give you some resources. I'm here to support you. 

Yeah. 

Our people pleasers are also. Most known because they apologize a lot. 

Mm-hmm. 

So oftentimes someone who apologizes when they've done nothing wrong, apologizes in day-to-day situations, apologizes when someone does something nice for them.

Mm-hmm. 

Or when someone gives 'em a compliment. 

Right. 

That's gonna be that sign of that people pleaser too. 

Mm-hmm. 

And so just letting them take up space. Mm-hmm. Let them know, you know, you're allowed to feel how you feel. You're allowed to have needs and just really saying, you don't need to apologize. I'm here to help you.

Mm-hmm. 

We don't wanna approach it with the stop apologizing. You know, sometimes, sometimes people seem really angry when they're like, stop doing that. 

Right. 

And that's not gonna help. Right. So that, that punishment, when we're afraid of punishment. Is not going to prevent anything. It's gonna say, well, I'm sorry for apologizing so much.

Yeah. 

All right, so we're actually going to wrap up this part of our great conversation because we had so much good stuff. This is just the beginning, so I hope that you stay tuned. And join us next week. Thanks for being here on the Aware and Prepared Podcast. Don't forget to hit Follow that little plus sign in your app in the top right, ensures you never miss an episode.

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