What's on Your Bookshelf?
“What’s On Your Bookshelf” is a personal and professional growth podcast exploring the intersections of passion, potential, and purpose - featuring multi-certified coach and leadership development consultant Denise R. Russo alongside Sam Powell, Zach Elliott, Tom Schweizer, Dennis LaRue, and Michelle King.
What's on Your Bookshelf?
121-The Obstacle Is The Way: Part 3-Episode 1; Building Your Inner Citadel: The Discipline of Will in Turbulent Times
We delve into the final section of Ryan Holiday's "The Obstacle is the Way," exploring how will—the discipline of the heart and soul—creates an inner fortress that no external adversity can break.
• Will represents quiet humility, resilience, and flexibility rather than forceful determination
• Abraham Lincoln's depression became his strength, teaching him to lead with dignity during America's Civil War
• The "inner citadel" concept describes the core part of ourselves that remains untouchable by external circumstances
• Building self-confidence and resilience requires facing obstacles rather than avoiding them
• Theodore Roosevelt overcame severe asthma through discipline, preparing him for greater challenges
• The path of least resistance teaches us nothing—we need struggle to develop true character
• Will is about surrendering the desire to control others while maintaining control over our own reactions
• Life's hardships will test everyone; the question is whether we've built the inner strength to face them
If you're interested in leadership development experiences based on historical figures like Lincoln, reach out to Denise for information about immersive programs she's led for teams.
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Welcome to what's on your Bookshelf, a life and leadership podcast where we live out loud the pages of the books that are on our shelves, with your host, denise Russo, and Sam Powell.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of what's on your Bookshelf. This is a life and leadership podcast where we're living out loud the pages of the books that are on our bookshelves. The book we're talking about is called the Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday. My name is Denise Russo, my co-host is Sam Powell, and we're taking a deep dive into how we can really digest this book, get some action and some traction from it in our own lives, and we're now about two thirds of the way through the book. Sam, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I am doing good. I was just thinking, as you were talking through about the podcast. I was just thinking about a comment I recently saw on a post that you did on LinkedIn and somebody had commented about how they enjoyed reading our, or they enjoyed listening to our podcast, because it really was us living out loud the pages. So I, I, I love that phrase and then that's how I describe this all the time, because that's what this is. This is drinking deeply and living out loud and I, uh, yeah, so I'm, I'm good, I'm excited, I'm feeling good.
Speaker 2:I feel like, uh, this is a turn of a page here in the book. We're moving on to the third and final section of the book, which is will. So we went through getting your mind right, getting your actions right, and now this is about getting your mind right, getting your actions right, and now this is about getting your will right, which is very, it's very interesting. It's an interesting process because he says that this is the one thing that you have complete control over that nobody can take from you. So, yeah, I don't know what were your thoughts as you started out this section.
Speaker 1:I had a coaching call with somebody earlier today and it kind of aligned with this chapter because it was a call with the person's manager and themselves talking about their individual development plan for the year. And one of the comments that the manager gave the person was you're just going to have to make sure that, if you have the momentum to get it started, that you keep it going. And so instantly I thought about that's what will is about, it started that you keep it going. And so instantly I thought about that's what will is about. It's about that inner fortitude inside of you. But I took that opportunity in that coaching session to remind them to go listen to our episodes on the time For the podcast series on atomic habits by James clear. And I will say that I think, as you go through reading this chapter yourself friend, that's listening to our show that you may want to go back and listen to the Atomic Habits episodes because it's easy to get your arms around how to take action on something, but it's in the sustaining of that action that's really gonna make a difference.
Speaker 1:This book is all about how obstacles can become opportunities in our life and it's about living and leading well. And when I think about it. The perceptions section. The first part that we talked about was about what's true, what do we think about something, what are our beliefs, what are the things that we haven't taken any action toward but will drive the action based on the things we think about. And then the next part, where the action is about, where you change starts to happen because you're taking an action or you're not taking an action about something that needs to shift in your life, and it's because there's an obstacle that's in front of you that you either want to get over, get around, get under or do nothing about, like the villagers in the very first chapter.
Speaker 1:That's probably the most, I think, poignant story we've heard. Sam in the book was the villagers that just did nothing and then they got mad at the guy who actually moved the rock out of the way. And if you don't know what we're talking about, go back to the first chapter and the first episode and get yourself a copy of this book, because it sets the tone for all of this, because will is about sustainability, getting results and outcomes based on those things you did or didn't do. That came from the things you did or didn't think about, and that's kind of the process we've talked about now from our signature story sessions that we have with people. We've talked about it in a lot of episodes that your actions and your outcomes they're not just based on tasks, they have to start in your mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. And this is like I think. Perception to me is like it's your mind. Part of it, the actions is like the physical manifestation of the thoughts that you've got, and this is that like the will part that we're talking about is that inner spirit. So he says will is our internal power, which can never be affected by the outside world. And he said that too often people think that will is how bad we want something right, like I just really want it and so I'm, like you know, going out and getting it. And he says, in actuality and this is I loved this part the will has a lot to do more with surrender than strength. And he says try God, willing over the will to win, or willing it into existence, for even those attributes can be broken. True will is quiet, humility, resilience and flexibility. The other kind of will is weakness disguised as bluster and ambition, and so when we think about will, it is that just quiet inner drive that keeps you going, that keeps you sustained for the long haul, and that's what all the chapters in this section really talk about, and the first one here is the discipline of will. I think you started all of them with the discipline of perception, discipline of action. This is the discipline of will. I think he started all of them with the discipline of perception, discipline of action. This is the discipline of will.
Speaker 2:And you and I before, right before we started, um hopped on here. We were talking about the story that he starts with, which is all about abraham lincoln, and I said I didn't realize how interesting abraham lincoln really was like. I think I know about him, I've heard lots of stories, you know all that sort of honest Abe, all those good things, but this really dove into the fact that he suffered from depression and he really utilized that as like I don't know it was. It's almost like he thought of this as like his burden to carry and it was why he felt like he could be the president that the country needed in this time of civil war and turmoil for so many people, because he had dealt with this internal turmoil like turmoil his whole life and he had the will, the quiet, strength, that fortitude to move through and move forward with all of that I just I thought that was super interesting.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that about him, I've never studied him that deeply and that was I don't know. I thought that was super interesting. I didn't know that about him, I've never studied him that deeply and that was I don't know. I thought that was really, really interesting.
Speaker 1:There's a really good movie about him called Lincoln, starring Daniel Day Lewis. It's totally worth watching, but it's super long. In fact, john Maxwell did a session at one of the John Maxwell leadership conferences that Sam and I participated in. As a total aside, by the way, if you're listening and you want to learn about how to be a good leader from one of the best leaders there is, let us know, because we've now brought dozens and dozens of people into the John Maxwell organization to learn from him. And so, anyway, sam there was this time we were at a conference and it was like a new idea and he said, hey, we're going to bring all the mentors into the room and just do an entire day of watching this movie, but chopping it apart and looking at the leadership lessons that came from President Lincoln. Well, years later, after we did that session, there was an opportunity in a team that you and I were a part of together, did you go through the Lincoln experience through agile? Oh man, all right. Well, so then there was this other opportunity, friends, and so if you were somebody who manages leadership development, or maybe you're a leader of a team, there's a really cool experience called Lincoln Leadership, and you can reach out to me for more information. But basically it's this program that they do in Gettysburg, and the people that produce the program walk through literally the decisions that President Lincoln had to make during the Civil War in like a reenactment sort of, and then apply it to your real business situations today and how you can overcome obstacles, based on the leadership lessons you could learn from the president. So if you're interested in that, you can reach out to me about that as well. It's probably one of the most immersive, interesting, interactive leadership development experiences I've taken groups on. I really loved it.
Speaker 1:So but back to the book. It is telling a story about Abraham Lincoln and it's funny because when you think about the word will like have you ever had something that you asked your son to do? And I'm thinking of my own son in the other room where you say, hey, will you do this? And they say yes, I will, and then they don't. So the word will can take on a lot of different meaning. But this part of the book is not talking about some sort of quick saying you'll do something. It's about actually doing it and that's the key behind willpower.
Speaker 2:No-transcript took his life from them yeah, and the author says here right right, holiday says you know, if perception and action were the disciplines of the mind and the body, then will is the discipline of the heart and the soul. And he said that because l Lincoln had gone through all the things he had personally struggled with and learned how to cope with. He was able to lead. And he says that will gives us that ultimate strength. It's the strength to endure, contextualize and derive meaning from the obstacles we simply cannot overcome.
Speaker 2:And I think about, like, if you really think about what this book is about, right, the obstacle becoming the way this is that like inner, that inner driving drumbeat is what the will is, that it's like I'm going to continuously pull these lessons, pull these obstacles into the very essence of who I am and I'm going to be better for it. I'm going to be more capable because of it. And knowing that and sitting in that, and then you know, moving, nobody can take that from you, right? It doesn't matter what happens to me, it doesn't matter how bad, how good, how temporary, how permanent. All of that gets pulled into me and I decide, I decide what gets to become part of that inner drumbeat for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, have you ever been? Of course I'm going to give you a Disney story. So have you ever been to the magic kingdom, where there's like a president's hall and they have all these animatronics of the presidents? Have you ever this? No, okay, so you have to come visit me, especially when the baby's old enough to appreciate disney world. There's this show well, I guess you could call it a show, but it gives you such a sense of american pride because it's this show where walt disney had created an environment where he uses animatronics to look like people, and then there's like speeches and stuff like that. But it has every president, past and present, that are on stage that go through kind of the history of America, and it kind of leaves you with a sense of pride, pride.
Speaker 1:But one of the things that struck me in this chapter that I wish that all the current politicians, no matter what side of an aisle they sit on or if they sit in the middle somewhere, would take to heed, which is that it says that Lincoln was a standout president and why he's one of the ones you think about when you think of who were the key presidents of this United States. It said that, unlike other politicians. He was not tempted to lose himself in petty conflict and distractions. He could not be sanguine. He could not find it in his heart to hate like others would.
Speaker 1:His own experience with suffering drove his compassion to allay it into others, and he found a way that when bad things were happening, or let's say the obstacles were happening for him, he kept in mind that famous saying of this too shall pass, knowing that that thing he was in and the moment he was in it was temporary and that it would eventually pass. It was one of his favorite sayings and it was about his perspective, and so what I really appreciate about learning about him in this chapter was that he really set out to say that, no matter what I do, no matter how hard it is, no matter how easy it is, no matter who's against me or who is for me, I'm going to perform whatever I can do, no matter how unpleasant, as smoothly as possible. And that's how he was able to get from one milestone to the next, because he wasn't focused in the valley, if you will. He was focused on getting from where he was to where he needed to be, and taking it one step at a time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely Absolutely. And you know they. One of the parts that I highlighted is like it's to deal with fate with cheerfulness and compassion. Right, like I just take it piece by piece, but like I have that compassionate thought process for what will be right, but what, you know, this will pass, this will be right. There's just a kind of a gentleness in that of dealing with things as they come. And, yeah, I, and it definitely, like I said, I feel like I have a whole new appreciation for Lincoln after reading this.
Speaker 2:You know, reading this section it's, you know he says that it's much easier to control our perceptions and emotions than it is to give up our desire to control other people and events. And you know, when we think about that and when we and I think about, like the context of, like the point in history that Lincoln was in right, you know, like giving up control of our perceptions and emotions, it feels much easier. Right, it's like I'm giving up, just like I can control that. Right, I can, I can control how I feel, how I react, what I do. That situation, but giving up the desire to control other people and events, it's that situation that you're kind of and I think about that moment in time that Lincoln was leading us through. He could have easily sat in gosh. I wish a thousand of these things weren't happening.
Speaker 2:I'm sure there's moments where he probably thought that, but that wasn't the you know fixation. And I like, and I think about that, and I think about the things that are harder for me in my life to let go. I think especially like a parent, as a partner, right, like sometimes I'm like I just want you to do this, like just do this thing the way I want you to do it, but giving that control up is really, really hard. But then, if I think about when I give up the control, about how I feel or how I, you know, perceive something, it does feel easier, which is, you know, so then I feel like, then it helps me feel like more in control of a situation that I really can't control, right, that I'm trying to influence but can't, you know, actually do anything about it. At the end of the day, it's exactly what you're saying, right, that I'm trying to influence but can't, you know, actually do anything about it. The other day.
Speaker 1:It's exactly what you're saying. It's about what can you control? And so with President Lincoln he knew that he could control his reaction and response to the things. That even says in the book that whatever resulted for him, and even what the consequences would be, he already had said it in his mind. So remember, back to perspective in the beginning, said it in his mind that he was going to go through that thing with dignity, strength and courage.
Speaker 1:And so I actually wrote in the margin of this that what example are you leaving? And it was kind of a question to myself like do I live that way? Do I take my consequences or obstacles and lead them with dignity, strength and courage? Do I lead with my heart and soul? And the book says that your will is different because it's within you. And so it kind of got me to thinking about what you were just saying just now, sam, about Solve for Happy, because it's about what's inside of you and that book. If you go back, friends, and listen to that series we did on Solve for Happy man, did it take will for that guy? So Mo Goddard had to go through a horrible experience of losing his child at the age of 21, who had lived a good amount of his life already, but he had to find the will within him to get up every day and to keep moving and to leave the legacy that his son wanted him to leave behind. And to keep moving and to leave the legacy that his son wanted him to leave behind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and he and Ryan Holiday says here certain things in life will cut you open like a knife, and when that happens, at the exposing moment, the world gets a glimpse of what's truly inside you, and that's where the will is right, that's who, that's where your character is, where the heart and soul of you really is.
Speaker 2:And when those horrible not if those horrible things happen to you, when they do, because horrible things happen to all of us at one point or another it's who are we, when we're, you know, laid open here for everyone to see. And you know, I love that question that you've got to yourself in the margin, right, like, what example am I really setting here? Am I the person that I want to be? Am I the person I want my kids to look up to? Am I the person I want other people to? You know, see, and you know really, what's at the heart of me and I think about, like this chapter is the discipline of will, and it's like do I have the discipline of that, of the core essence of me that nobody else can touch, that I have complete control over, in order to be that person that I want to be, and I like that's? You know, the answer to that is not always yes.
Speaker 2:The answer to that sometimes is oh, I got some work to do, right. Oh, that's not how I wanted that to be, but I think it's that. That's that part of it, that inner drumbeat that I'm talking about, of like, ok, I wasn't who I wanted to be in that moment, right, that cut me open and I did not show up. So what do I need to do to show up better, right? How do I grow myself? How do I incorporate this lesson, this obstacle, into the very essence of who I am?
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting because the book really is helping us with key things you can do. But it also highlights an important point is that this is about adjusting to an unpredictable world. So you know, we can give you all the tips of what we've done, but that doesn't matter. That's our path, that's the life we've lived. It's not the path that even the authors have written about in their own lives. But this says that if you can really dive deep into this critical third discipline, the will, it'll prepare you, it will protect you and it will allow you to thrive. And he even added the author said something interesting. He said you will be happy in spite of it, in other words, in spite of the unpredictability in life.
Speaker 1:So when I think about the how of happiness so another that was the first book in our happiness year last year. Was it last year? I'm getting our years mixed up. The how of happiness was last year. Yeah, yeah, sure, I don't know. Okay, anyway, go back in our series, find the how of happiness.
Speaker 1:So the how of happiness is a blueprint about the fact that happiness isn't just about laughing and being happy-go-lucky, if you will. It's about being able to be okay despite circumstances, despite the unpredictability, despite obstacles. It's how can you find happiness in the mundane as well as in the difficult? And so I think in here, where he ended by saying that being confident, being calm, being ready, being willing, so the part of will is being willing to make some sort of adjustment in your own life, because he says, it's easier to control your perceptions and emotions than it is to give up your desire to control other people and events. So when there's an obstacle, sometimes an obstacle is because of somebody. It's not just a thing that might be the obstacle, right Like you were talking about, just being a parent, or being a spouse or a partner, or being a co worker on a team.
Speaker 2:Right, you can't control that, you can't control what everybody else does. And so that's where you've got to build this, what he calls in the next chapter, the inner citadel. Right, like, you've got to build this inner core of you that does that. And this has got another interesting story about another great president um, this is about three or roosevelt, which, again, like he's way more interesting than I thought he was too. He apparently struggled with, um, really bad asthma as a kid and worked to, you know, he, he and his father worked to like build him up, but, again, like, this became part of, like, the core of who he was, like having to overcome, having to work through this obstacle that like was thrown in his way and, you know, he really got to the point where, like, he had to build up this like steel backbone nobody's born with it. It's something that you have to build. And the inner citadel is, you know, really here mentioned as like the fortress inside of us that no external adversary can ever break down. So, like we talked about the discipline of the will, but this is like the foundation of it is you've got to build this, what the stoics call this inner citadel, this inner fortress that nobody can penetrate.
Speaker 2:And as I was reading this, I was thinking about, I was thinking about like a recent thing that happened with my son and with sports, and he gets really down on himself. He's like a weird perfectionist about sports, but only about sports, like literally nothing else in his life could he really care that much about. But like he, it's like he holds himself to this like perfection level, and if he doesn't attain that, if he's not the best, if he's not whatever, he's terrible. It's like he like in his mind, it kind of like builds the sin. And so I've been thinking a lot about how one builds self-confidence and self-esteem, like what really goes into that.
Speaker 2:And I started thinking about like I have a lot of self-esteem and self-confidence. I don't know where it comes from, though Like, and I've been trying to tease that apart, but it reminded me of this like idea of like inner citadel, like people can say whatever they want to me and it doesn't penetrate the heart of who I am. I don't care what you think about me, because I know what I think about me and that is stronger than whatever crazy thing you would say Right and like. And you know, in this situation, my son, like he, you know, of course, did what kids do when they're mad at you Right, like, try to like. Oh, you don't, you know, you don't have any friends, you know, whatever, like, whatever crazy thing he's going to say and I'm like you're right, buddy.
Speaker 1:Sure, I don't Uh-huh, yep, absolutely Right, because it doesn't matter. Like.
Speaker 2:I know what he's saying is out of like some emotional space in his response and we deal with this with all kinds of people in our lives, right, but like it never hits me because whatever this inner citadel is, that's built up like you can't touch it and that, essentially, is what the will is. It's like what is that will you've got inside of you that nobody can touch? And that's what the Stoics really say you have to build up.
Speaker 1:And so to take will and turn it into action, just end it with I-N-G. So it's like what are you willing to do? So if your son wants to be the best, or my son wants to be the best, because he sounds like they should be related, it also there. There comes a time when you have to decide what your compromises are going to be, what the consequences would. Struggling. His father instilled will in him, I think, by making him because it would be easy for you know, as a mom, maybe like a nurturer be like oh, it's okay, you can't breathe, let me just hug you, because that would be me, right, let me just hug you and so. But his dad was like no, you're weak and we're going to make you strong, but it's going to hurt and it's going to take fortitude to get through this thing. And that thing he had to go through likely helped him in the next part of his journey, because he might have been physically weak, but all the stuff his dad was doing to get inside of his will was make him mentally strong. And he needed that because then he lost his wife and his mom back to back, and then he had a bunch of political enemies. Then he was defeated in elections and then he had foreign wars and then, unlike lincoln who was shot one time and was dead, teddy had multiple assassination attempts that were nearly fatal, which I didn't really know about him. But here's another interesting story about him, totally to take a sidebar. So my great grandfather, joseph Russo. He was a barber and he cut President Roosevelt's hair. That's crazy. Yeah, it's kind of cool, right.
Speaker 1:So the story that I have of my grandfather is that it's actually about my great-great-grandmother. So my great-great grandmother, she came over from Sicily and originally she and her husband were going to come over with her three kids and they were going to have a better life in America. And so they get ready to take the trip and suddenly my great great grandfather, so Joseph's dad, got sick. He gets on a separate boat, because back then they would make you have to get on a different boat to come into, I guess, america, because they put all the sick people together, which was probably a really bad idea because that's where all the people died. Sick people together, which is probably a really bad idea because that's where all the people died. And so the sick boat ended up going like south and around to like Mexico area. And then the healthy boat came across just straight across west into Ellis Island. So anyway, super long story short, my great great grandfather died along the way, and so my great-great-grandmother. None of them spoke English.
Speaker 1:They get to Ellis Island and she had three young children, one of which was my great-grandfather, and she had to have the will to survive. Here was a woman. She didn't have any industry, didn't have any work, didn't have any money. She was hoping she was going to be meeting her husband there and start this new life in this new land where, you know, back then was still a very young, young country. And and she was able to somehow instill will into my great grandfather, who ended up becoming the barber to the president. And then my great grandfather instilled that into my grandfather, into my dad, and I hope a little bit of it stuck with me as well.
Speaker 1:But as I was reading through all of this in the chapter and thinking about my great-grandfather and thinking about President Roosevelt and President Lincoln, it says in the book that not everyone accepts their bad start in life. They remake their bodies and their lives with activities and with exercise, they prepare themselves for the hard road and do they hope they never have to walk it Sure, like I don't want my kids to have to struggle Sam, I don't but I've probably ruined them by enabling things that prevented some struggle. And I'm now seeing it in like real life with some of this One just graduated from college, the other one has a year to go and I'm starting to think that maybe somehow the fortitude and the strength has to come from encountering obstacles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that that's true. I think you know just in my own experience with my own life, is that the struggles, the things were the teachers. Like he says in here, the path of least resistance is a terrible teacher, and I think that that is incredibly accurate. You need resistance to teach here, and I think we're getting short on time on this episode. But my favorite quote from this chapter that I think like sums it up pretty well for me is you'll have far better luck toughening yourself up.
Speaker 2:My favorite quote from this chapter that I think like sums it up pretty well for me is you'll have far better luck toughening yourself up than you'll ever, than you ever will, trying to take the teeth out of a world that is, at best, indifferent to your existence. And while that sounds kind of depressing because it makes it sound like the world doesn't care about you, but, like my friend, the world doesn't care about you. Like you're one of 7 billion people, you are the whole world to a few people, but you are nothing to the whole world. You know pretty much, and so you have a lot more influence over yourself than all of the gritty teeth of this world, and that's that inner citadel that you have to build up right. Build that part of you that it doesn't matter what happens. It can't touch that inner core of who you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sort of like that little tiny book that's called don't sweat the small stuff, because it's all small stuff. Yep, you know, it's perspective. So this is all about perspective. And, interestingly, next week is going to be I don't know a different one, because the next week's chapter is called Thinking Negatively Excellent. So I don't know if I want to say I'm looking forward to that, but I'll see you next week, sam.
Speaker 1:And for this week, friends, there's a couple of coaching questions the book has for us. So I'll end with this Are you okay with being alone? Are you strong enough to go a few more rounds if it comes to that? Are you comfortable with challenges? Does uncertainty bother you? How does pressure feel? And the book ends by saying these things will happen to you. No one knows when or how, but it's going to be certain that that will happen to you. So when you thought about those questions as I read them even rewind the podcast and listen to that piece again. If any of that made you feel a little bit shaky or unsettled, come back next week, because we're going to dive into how to approach some of this a little bit deeper. So for today, my name is Denise Russo. On behalf of my friend Sam Powell. It's been another episode of what's on your Bookshelf.