148 Cleaning Up Your Mental Mess: Proof In The Brain: Why Mind Management Works

We dig into the research-heavy chapter that proves mind management isn’t fluff and outline how awareness and autonomy work together to reduce toxic stress and build resilience. The data across brain waves, blood markers and validated scales points to real, measurable change over 60 days.

• why control groups spiralled when awareness lacked tools
• how autonomy fuels follow-through and habit formation
• stress as a signal to manage, not erase
• the hard middle between days 14 and 60
• reconceptualising your narrative to reduce toxic load
• neuroplasticity turning practices into automatic patterns
• measurable shifts in anxiety, mood and physiological markers
• preparing support for the uncomfortable early phase

Go get the book; in our show notes should be the link to the book. We have a Substack, W-O-Y-B, where we also have the links to the book.

Transcript

Setting The Scientific Stage

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Welcome to What's on Your Bookshelf, a life and leadership podcast where we live out loud the pages of the books that are on our shelves. With your host, Denise Russo and Sam Powell.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of What's on Your Bookshelf. This is our Life and Leadership Podcast where we're living out loud the pages of the books that are on our bookshelves. My name is Denise Russo. My co-host and friend is Sam Powell. And together we are reading Cleaning Up Your Mental Mess by Dr. Caroline Leaf. We are in chapter four, which is still the beginning of the book. And this is this is the deep chapter because it's about the research. So, Sam, how are you doing today? I'm good.

Why This Isn’t Woo Woo

SPEAKER_02 2:04

I hope you're mentally ready to dive into the research. Because she starts this out with this is probably the most challenging chapter to get through, but it's so necessary because it undergirds, which I had never heard the word undergird before, uh, the scientific nature of the neurocycle method for mind management. And she said that, you know, she also believes and knows that challenging our minds to read difficult material is powerful and not only increases intelligence, but also builds mental resilience. So just reading this chapter will make you smarter and mentally healthier. And like, isn't that just kind of the whole premise of this podcast, right? Like, read things that are challenging, read things that kind of stretch how we think, how we perceive the world. And this is a chapter that it is tough to get through because it's just a lot of data. It's a lot of probably science that most of us are never ever going to really look at again, because it's just, you know, sort of beyond our typical level of, you know, understanding and things like that. But it it's super interesting. It was a fascinating, fascinating chapter to read through. And it was really interesting to see, especially just how she structured sort of the like dichotomy between the control group and the group that went through her process.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

What I thought about it as well is that it's it is a challenging part to read, but it helps to reinforce that this isn't woo-woo. Like she went through real scientific experiments with real people. And she says in the very beginning of this chapter that your toxic stress and anxiety can be reduced by as much as 81% by using this five-step neurocycle, which we have not shared yet. It's what the book is about, and we're gonna get there. But I think that for me is why this chapter is so important because this is about healing your body and your brain and your mind. And this chapter just helps us to understand like what she was thinking as the scientist as to how she approached the experiments with people to really reassure the reader that this really does work, and here is why.

What The Trials Measured

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Right. Yeah. And she goes in to talk about, you know, what were the things that they measured specifically and what did those things mean to us in the world of like neuroscience and health and you know, all of that. And um, yeah, it just is I I found this whole chapter fascinating. And it did just sort of reiterate. It feels like the whole beginning of this book has been like, this is real. This is how we know this is real. And here's proof after proof after proof. And this is really like the the proof is in the pudding here, the proof's in the data of what these clinical trials that she's run has really shown. And these are over a significant period of time, right? We're talking like, you know, she measured days and then months of people in these trials to see what kind of affect that they've had. And it's been, I don't know, it's really interesting, right? So they go everything through like psych psychosocial measures to um a scale that she's come up with called the leaf mind management scale to the LMM scale. And that measures things like autonomy, awareness, toxic thoughts, toxic stress and anxiety, barriers and challenges, empowerment, life satisfaction, also like the BBC well-being scale, the hospital anxiety and depression scale, patient health questionnaire, um, narratives, neurophysiological, electrical activity of the brain. I mean, we're talking about like looking at well-being and health from every angle you possibly can, right? Like she's measuring brain waves, electrical activity. We're looking at blood, at DNA, at cells, at um, you know, feedback from the from the person, right? We're looking at this from really any possible like clinical way that you could measure. Am I healthy? Am I well? Am I, you know, not stressed, you know, and what like and I am I stressed in a good way, bad way, you know, all that sort of good stuff. It was super, super fascinating and like nice to see this, right? She hasn't even given given us the process. Yeah. Nice to see this backed up with so much data.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

I love how she wrote this section where she, in each of those categories, like you just said, that could be overwhelming for the layman to read, but she outlines it by saying, here's what the control group did, here's what the experimental group did, and then it ends with, and how is this going to help you? So that part puts sort of like a personalized touch on this is what these this experiment was for and about, but why should you care?

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Yeah, yeah. It is, it really did make it approachable. So, like if you're somebody who is interested in neuroscience, in clinical trials, in you know, just medicine and science in general, like I think you'd really enjoy this chapter. Like it's it's definitely challenging, but it's I think a good type of challenge. Like I felt that I understood everything because of the way that she broke this down, which I really, really liked. And in the first section, right? So if we're kind of talking about this like piece by piece of, you know, what the what did we measure and things like that? Like the she starts with the psychosocial measures. And this is really like uh how aware are people of, you know, their problems, of you know, what's going on with them, um, their self-regulation, things like that. And um, you know, I think it's I think we'll kind of see this over and over again. This theme is it's no surprise is that the control group had no changes or negative changes with kind of everything, and the experimental group had positive and sometimes extremely positive, you know, changes to um, you know, to this. And so when they measure um, you know, awareness and issues and um and just like the self-regulation of them, the control group, what I thought was really interesting, got worse and the you know, the experimental group got better. But I thought it was really interesting that like as we drive awareness, she talks about this, I think, in the first couple of things here, is like as the control group, right, who didn't go through the process, but as they became more aware of the issues that they were facing with no strategies to fix it, they kind of spiraled almost, is what it felt like. And I and I just think about that in the terms of like my you know, right, my own life experience of when I became aware of something and didn't have a solution for it, like how terrible that really feels.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yeah, you and I were talking before we started the episode about some personal things and decisions that we're both making. And I do have to thank Sonia Lyre-Burmisky because her science book two years ago taught us how to look through the lens of happiness by using science. And this book is about how to train your mind. And we talked about how you're really your mind is not your brain, your mind drives things into your brain. This author, Dr. Caroline Leaf, says that you can literally heal your brain with your mind. But I think that by us having gone through an entire year about happiness first, we set the stage for like the positive intelligence piece of it scientifically that says, whatever the circumstances that you have now, which is the whole reason we did last year's episodes on obstacles, which was things like that in real life, barriers and making bold choices and the fact that life is hard and messy, leads us now to saying, okay, you've learned how to be happy, you've learned that life is full of obstacles. Now we are learning how we take captive, maybe through empowerment of our mind and our brains. And so I highlighted a couple things, Sam, on some of the categories that really stood out to me. And so I wonder if if maybe you did the same and we just point out a few. Since we don't have a lot of time today to go through each one, we always encourage you as a listener to just go get the book. In our show notes should be the link to the book. We have a substack. Our substack is W-O-Y-B for what's on your bookshelf, where we also have the links to the book. You do not have to read the book to hopefully enjoy listening to our stories. But if you really want to change your mind and change your brain, the best way is to do what Coach Wooden's dad taught him, which is to dive deeply and drink deeply from these good books.

Control vs Experimental Outcomes

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like you I highlighted certain things. And I think like when I think about what we're we've this journey we've been on with this podcast and you and I growing through these books that we've taken off our shelves and deep diving into, um, I think that we're hitting a lot of like these first couple categories, right? The autonomy and awareness that she talks about. And really, you know, what I thought was what's, I think gonna stick with me in this is that we have to have a sense of autonomy that we can affect the outcome of our life. Like you have to believe that at a very deep level to sort of move forward with anything, right? All of the stuff that we did with happiness, all of the things that we're did with the, you know, the obstacle year. And I think everything that we'll do this year about kind of cleaning up your messes and your clutter in your life, is that you have to feel like you're in control. You have to feel like what you do makes a big difference. Like I've talked to people like that who feel like it doesn't matter what they do, nothing's gonna make a difference, right? It's like, I mean, how much does that come up like? I feel like every election cycle, people are like, it doesn't even matter if I vote, because it's not gonna make a difference. And it's like to have that sort of defeatist attitude is fundamentally problem one. I think you've got to get over and really work with. And like, I'm interested when we get to like the solutioning on this, but I I firmly, firmly believe that because like if you don't believe that you can affect the outcome, if you don't believe you've got some control over what happens, like you, you, you haven't even stepped up to the starting line, right? Like you can't do anything. Like you are stuck, like, oh, I talk about that with my like kids all the time, right? Um, okay, if you believe that, then it's true, right? If you believe that you it's not gonna make a difference, then yeah, then that that's true. And you you can have that life, you can have that decision, you can have that path, that consequence. It's not gonna be fun though, right? Because I know better, I know different, I know that we've got autonomy, I know that we've got control. And and and I just think that that's such a powerful thing. And that's a lot of I think what we're doing through these books is just driving you and I work with this fundamental sense of autonomy, that we can control the outcome of what we do by how we think and act and believe and all that sort of good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

I like how you're describing how to interpret the word believe, because you know, John Maxwell, who we've both been mentored and taught by, says that you can hope for something. You can hope your life will be different, you can hope for a different job, you can hope for a different outcome, but hope is not a strategy, is the way John teaches it. And hope is not a belief, right? Because hope is like you're saying, Well, I hope this could happen, but you do nothing about it. Belief to me is like if you really believe in something, you're going to do something about that belief. You're going to either invest time or energy or whatever the actions are that are needed to drive forward that belief. She talks about in the book that if you use this in a way to empower yourself to have the life that you really want. And this doesn't mean like the life that you see on television and commercials, like get a big yacht and travel the world. Like there's also reality to life. We're talking about satisfaction in life. And she says that you'll start to see the situation of life as opportunities instead of negative challenges and barriers. That was the entire Ryan Holiday book, The Obstacle is the way.

Awareness Without Tools Backfires

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Right. Right. Yeah, I think you're you're spot on with that. And um, yeah, I always think about that. Hope is not a strategy mindset. My favorite definition of hope, I've I don't remember the exact words of it. I think it's saved as like a screenshot on my phone somewhere. But it's it's that hope. We always like to think of hope as like this overly positive, like, oh, things are gonna like, you know, I have hope for the future, things will get better. But I saw this definition that was like, hope isn't that. Hope is bloodied and beaten and broken down. Hope is you fighting through all the hard things and like believing that you still can continue to fight, that you can get up despite all of it. And to me, like that's just such an empowered view of hope. Whereas the other one feels nice and is pretty, but like doesn't feel real. Like, I prefer this raw version that hope is something I fight for all of the time. And I believe in, right? It's not a belief, it's something that I believe in the ability to hope. And I think that that's that's really what's super, you know, super powerful. And like, and again, once you kind of go on that journey and you believe you have the ability to do this, right? It starts to draw this awareness to it. And that's one of the categories that they measure. And I thought the awareness part was really interesting because she talks about it kind of over and over again in these measurements as she goes. And I I'm interested in your thoughts on this because she really talks about as you become aware of the problems, right? As you become aware of like where your toxic thinking, you know, cycles, what your toxic thought patterns are, your toxic stress patterns, like all this kind of stuff. Like, you actually feel worse for a while until you figure out how to manage it. And so, like, there's this data kind of over and over again where it's like things just sort of like drop off around like that 14-day mark, right? Where a lot of times people think it takes 14 days to solve to make a habit, 21 days to get to have it. But like in that time frame, the data kind of over and over again almost drops in the experimental group in a couple of ways of like I become aware and now I'm like working through it. And then you've got to kind of push beyond that and push, push past that. But the group that's the control group, they end up spiraling as they draw awareness to these problems because they have no way of managing it. It's like now I know the world's on fire, I'm and I'm lost to that. And it's almost like the you have to have the autonomy to even start the journey. But if you draw awareness without any action to it behind it, of like, okay, now I'm gonna actually go do the thing, then you almost kill your autonomy, right? You end up in this really bad cycle, which I thought was really interesting. We saw that in the data in a couple of different ways that she pointed out.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

It's super important what you're talking about because it actually reflects in a few chapters later from now, where she says, beware of the fact that you will have some hard times. There are going to be the obstacles. The other day, my friend Grant posted something on Facebook, and I've been friends with him for a long, long time. And he always posts that he he makes um jokes about going to his workouts with his personal trainer, and he's like my age, maybe just a little bit younger. And so he he he makes light of the fact that it's not easy to exercise when you are older. And so he had this post, and it was funny because he was talking about how it's the new year, he hadn't been to the gym in a in a while, and so you get excited, right? You sign up for the membership and you got probably some free goodie bag, and you have your plan for how you're gonna go around all these different machines, and so the first couple of weeks, that's why they say people drop off of their gym memberships because they don't create the habit. And so he was saying that at the end of this particular session that he was having with his trainer, who he said, I felt like I was going to die. And he said, I don't, um, I don't feel good about how I feel right now, but I'm coming back tomorrow. And so the end of the post every time is always positive about like I'm an overcomer. So when you were telling the story about being kind of beat down, it's there's that quote that says something. I think Rocky said it, right? It doesn't matter how many times you get knocked down, it just matters how many times you get back up again.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's you know, the the the data is backing up that feeling of like it will get harder. And she says it, it will get harder before it gets easier. When you uncover patterns, when you start down this path of working, like the middle is gonna feel really, really hard.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

And you've got to have a support system for that. You gotta be prepared for that, right? And I think the gym's the perfect, perfect analogy, right? Because that gets a lot harder before it gets easier, and then you get into a place where it's a healthy pattern of stress, right? Like I'm stressing my body in a way that, like, I know I can, you know, manage and recover from. But those that uphill climb at first is is tough, and you want to give up. And, you know, and and the data is really pointing to, and we talked about this last time, but she talks about it here again and again, is like we're talking 60 plus days to really get to these spaces where things start to feel feel better because what the data keeps showing is that that's the point when things in your brain have become like you've reframed your entire, you know, wiring to allow for that to go through, right? And so while you're in that rewiring, while you're in that rehabit formation, it's hard. It like it, it is definitely a tough bottom. I think anybody who's made change in their life, significant change in their life, can probably just attest to this in you know how they feel and just their feedback.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

I really think that the theme of of this episode is about awareness and empowerment. When she's talking about the BBC well-being scale, that is about measuring specific measures for depression and anxiety. And so if you think of somebody that has a high level of stress, maybe even bordering on depression, it is hard to keep getting back up again. But she specifically says through the research that has been done with these experimental groups, that you will be more energetic and ready for action. You will have better positive interactions with other people. You will be able to come out of it if you have the awareness and the empowerment and the tools that you need to be able to get there. And that's what this book is going to reveal when we get into the cycle, the five-step cycle about how we will do it. So, this is all the what section, and then we're gonna get into the how. But this what is so important because maybe you'll see whatever your own circumstances is for yourself. Maybe you don't have depression and maybe you don't think you're anxious, but you do feel tired or fatigued when you get home from work, or you can't wait for Friday, but you dread Monday.

Autonomy As A Prerequisite

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yeah, yeah. And I think that, and she makes a point somewhere in this chapter that, like, the point is not to get rid of stress, it's not to get rid of anxiety because anxiety and depression and those feelings serve a purpose. It's to get you out of the toxic realm of that, right? Like when depression gets so low, you're now in like it's it's really harmful for you at every kind of physical, mental level it can possibly be. And the data is backing up that it does that to you, right? It has those types of effects on your brain activity, on your hormones, on your blood, on your DNA, like cellular level stuff, right? Like the data that she presents like shows that when you get into toxic levels of stress, anxiety, depression, that's when you're long-term affected, right? You can actually measure the effect on your body. And that in turn affects your just overall health, right? You're more susceptible to issues, you're more susceptible to sickness and all of that. And but it's never to go, you're never trying to get it like to go away, right? I think that's the that's one of the big problems we feel. And I feel like this is where like uh toxic masculinity becomes a problem because like men are so often right in this like patriarchal type society, right, that we've got set up is that they're taught that you've got to be tough and bury your feelings and you know, not feel those things. But In reality, like that mindset is very prevalent along all to all of us. Like that, where that all stems from trickles down to everybody, no matter who you are, right? Crosses all lines. And that in itself is really a wrong feeling of like, you know, to have emotional intelligence means you don't feel the emotions. Emotional intelligence is that you know that that is a signal for something and you know how to deal with it. And that's really what we're getting to is like through this process, through just, you know, mind management, is that you can take that feeling of anxiety because every single person will always feel anxiety, right? In at some point or another in the life. And that anxiety is a good thing. It's making you take action, it's making you realize there's something to be done. Same thing on the side of depression, right? That depression is telling you something, right? There's something that's getting in the way of you kind of be, you know, living into you know your full space and things like that. And so the whole point of this isn't to not feel the feelings or to never have anxiety, never to have stress, never to have depression. It's to, when you feel those things, have things that help you deal with it, right? Have strategies, have um, you know, uh actions that you can go out and take to then help you. And in this rewiring, right, in doing it enough, you rewire your brain so that you don't fall down into those toxic or up into those toxic places, right? You stay managed so that it's just, it's just feedback, right? The feeling that I have is just feedback for something that's going on and I am empowered, right? Like you're saying, right? It's that empowerment and awareness to deal with it in a way that's healthy and keeps me, you know, like overall well.

unknown 24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

We all have our own stories. And so next week we're going to talk about how all this science can help you. But Dr. Leaf says that your narrative is your unique story. And she goes on to say that you have to look at your not just your present and what you hope to be for the future, but also a look back on your past and that the five-step cycle that we'll be sharing soon can help you embrace, process, and reconceptualize your story. Because if your narrative stays inside of you, that is, if you suppress how you are feeling, if you're not feeling the way you want to be feeling, that can cause brain damage. It says that can damage your mind, your brain, and your body. That is body physical damage, which she's already talked about earlier in the book about things like heart disease and stroke and other ailments that we can get simply because we're not observing our mind, which dictates things that trigger our brain, that then triggers the things that happen in our bodies. And so because our brains have this neuroplasticity to it, that means it's malleable. That means we can change our mind, we can change our brain, we direct and control those changes. But if you don't know how to do those things, then it makes it much more difficult, if ever, possible, for you to do it. And so what she's doing is opening up a gift for us to be able to see how you can literally heal your brain with your mind, with these scientifically proven ways and steps that are simple, not easy. They're simple. And so that's what takes the 60 or so odd days to be able to really reinforce it.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Yeah, yeah. And that's where it's a new pattern that becomes automatic for you, right? And that's like, again, going all the way back to atomic habits, that's really what James Clear is getting to, is that you've got to get to that point where the thought process is now automatic, right? You automatically, you know, reach for the celery and not the piece of chocolate, right? It's where you don't even think about it. And that's really what this is getting to is that there is all the science banging it up. And she says, you know, as you build these new thoughts, you know, you'll experience an improvement in brain function. You will actually be changing the structure of your brain in a positive direction. And then she, like towards the very end of the chapter, the thing I highlighted and starred is you may think you are getting away with not dealing with your stuff, but your brain, body, and mind will eventually pay the price. And I have seen I felt that in my own life, 100%. I have experienced working through the stuff that's really hard and it being exhausting and feeling really bad. But once you've got it tackled, once you've got those things rewritten, like there's huge freedom in that. And I've seen people I love, friends, family, you name it, like I can think of the people off the top of my head who I am watching them not deal with their stuff. And I'm watching them get into this pattern of their body taking the toll. And it's like, this is this is that. And I, you know, and I think that that's like if there's one thing you take away from the summary of the research, is that backed by clinical data, by the research she's done, that if you don't deal with your stuff, your body, brain, and mind will eventually pay the price. You cannot escape that.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

100%. I will close my thoughts by saying there were many pages in this chapter where in the margin I wrote, This could have saved so and so that I love, or this is for me, or this part is for such and such person that I work with, or whatever. I have people's names all over this chapter.

Hope, Grit, And Real Change

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Yep. Yep. Never give your copy of your book to somebody. Now it's a diary. Um yeah, I mean, that's that's exactly it. Like I can see myself in so much of this. I can see people I know, like named people I know, and I think that that's that's that. And and you've gotta face this stuff because you just don't get, you don't get, I love I just love the simple way she phrases it. Like, you don't get away with not dealing with your stuff. The price will come for you at some point or another. And like as somebody who wants to live a very full and deep life, that's just unacceptable to me, right? In in how I how I want to live. And so then it's what do I do about it, right? What does that mean? And I'm excited to get there.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Me too. I I like that. Unacceptable. So next week we're gonna talk about how when you acknowledge your feelings and optimize your brain function, you get coherent and get empowered, then you are going to actually eliminate things like inflammation in your body. You're going to eliminate elevated cortisol levels, you're going to help your hormones function properly. And you're going to, even at the cellular base level of your body, heal your body just by changing your mind. And so I'm really looking forward to next week when we dive into how the science can help you. And we are going to get to the five steps, but first we have to get through how she even was able to invent that process through her research.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Yeah. And I think that if that's such an important part of this journey, is to really, really understand that and to understand the stakes, right? Like we're talking about your life that's at stake here, really, at the end of the day. And I don't know, it's one of those things where it's like sometimes I read the beginning of this book and I'm like, I get it. I get it, Dr. Leaf. Like, I'm killing myself. Please, like, let's move on. But I think it's that reiteration that's helping me feel that deep sense of motivation to really make those changes. And I think that if you're reading along with us, you're gonna pick that sense of I gotta do something now.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Oh, well, I can't wait then to record with you for next week. But for today, my name's Denise Russo, and with my friend Sam Powell, this has been another episode of What's on Your Bookshelf, and I'm gonna go to the house.