Episode 59 - Inside the Ring of Nutrition with Sports Nutrition Expert Jackie Kaminsky MS RD CISSN

Ever wonder what it's like to be a trailblazer in sports nutrition, particularly in the high-stakes world of combat sports? Jackie Kaminsky, our esteemed guest, pulls no punches as she recounts her thrilling career trajectory—from her impactful stint at the UFC Performance Institute to her innovative venture, The Fight Nutritionist. 

Timeline:
3:25 Jackie’s unique journey from FSU to starting The Fight Nutritionist; she got suspended from her graduate program, and her success has literally nothing to do with FSU.
17:00 Jackie never even saw the initial UFC fights! Tony and I were huge fans from the start.
18:00 I want to work with pro athletes – advice from Jackie; she got her start with the UFCPI
20:10 South Florida is the place to be if you want to work with pro fighters
26:20 So much individual variability that no single program works for all athletes
32:20 ACSM guidelines have zero application in the professional fight sports
32:49 Protein recommendations – clinical nutrition vs sports nutrition
38:30 The entire process of weight cutting is not healthy
40:30 Supplement advice from Jackie
41:50 Hyper-responders to creatine!
44:37 Jackie dummies down nutrition advice. Like her 8-year-old little sister

Jackie Kaminski is a registered dietitian/ nutritionist with a Master's degree in Exercise Physiology & Sports Nutrition from Florida State University. Her first introduction to working with professional athletes was back in 2017 when she worked at the UFC Performance Institute in Las Vegas, Nevada. Since then, Jackie has worked with various professional fighters and other clientele and now operates under the company she started back in March, The Fight Nutritionist LLC. The Fight Nutritionist is dedicated to providing the most effective nutrition plans to ensure her athletes are performing at their absolute best. All of her plans are individualized to the athlete and are backed by the latest research to ensure complete safety and efficacy. Jackie is also a member of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, where she often participates in different research projects and data collection with other ISSN members from Nova University. When Jackie isn’t working, you can find her at Combat Club, where she trains kickboxing and Muy Thai. As a sports dietitian, Jackie’s aim is to provide her athletes with the necessary fuel to excel in training and provide the proper education to ensure they are engaging in the safest health practices (as they relate to combat sports).  

About the Show

We cover all things related to sports science, nutrition, and performance. The Sports Science Dudes represent the opinions of the hosts and guests and are not the official opinions of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN), the Society for Sports Neuroscience, or Nova Southeastern University. The advice provided on this show should not be construed as medical advice and is purely an educational forum.

Hosted by Jose Antonio, PhD

Dr. Antonio is the co-founder and CEO of the International Society of Sports Nutrition and the co-founder of the Society for Sports Neuroscience, www.issn.net. Dr. Antonio has over 120 peer-reviewed publications and 16 books. He is a Professor at Nova Southeastern University, Davie, Florida in the Department of Health and Human Performance.

Twitter: @JoseAntonioPhD

Instagram: the_issn and supphd

Co-host Anthony Ricci EdD

Dr Ricci is an expert on Fight Sports and is currently an Assistant Professor at Nova Southeastern University in Davie Florida in the Department of Health and Human Performance.

Instagram: sportpsy_sci_doc and fightshape_ricci

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the sport science dudes. I am your host, doctor Jose Antonio, with my co-host, dr Tony Ricci. Hey, it is 2024. This is our first show of the year.

Speaker 2: 0:12

How about?

Speaker 1: 0:12

that, yeah, we're excited. If your first time listener hit the subscribe button and like the show, you can find us on YouTube, brumble, spotify and Apple podcasts. Our special guest today is Jackie Kaminsky. She is a registered dietitian nutritionist with a MS degree in exercise, fizz and sports nutrition from Florida State University who, by the way, got their asses kicked, did you?

Speaker 2: 0:36

see that, tony, I did. But those full games don't count unless you're in the top four. Let's go Washington. By the way, I can't root for Habba, but go.

Speaker 1: 0:46

That's true, that's yeah. Well, that's Ohio State's nemesis, right you?

Speaker 2: 0:50

got that right.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Yeah, but uh, all the Florida State people were whining about, oh, we should be in the top four, and then they get shellacked, they get shellacked.

Speaker 3: 0:59

What's up this moment?

Speaker 1: 1:04

More about Jackie. Her first introduction to working with pro athletes was back in 2017, where she worked at the UFC performance institute in Las Vegas, nevada. Since then, jackie's worked with various professional fighters and other clientele and now operates under the company she started back in March the fight nutritionist. That's pretty cool the fight nutritionist. It's dedicated to providing the most effective nutrition plans and ensure her athletes performing at the absolute best, and I'm sure we'll have a lot of we'll talk a lot about that. You're also a member of the ISSN, yep. You've actually helped with some data questions, got some publications, and when you're uh, when you aren't working which is, you know, you work most of the time Seems like you travel a lot, jackie. I do travel a lot. You also train in Libet and kickboxing, muay Thai, etc. Etc. So it is a pleasure to have Jackie Kaminsky on the show. Welcome.

Speaker 3: 2:00

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Hey, hey, can I just start. Jackie is speaking this year at ISSN, am I correct? Let everybody know then.

Speaker 1: 2:09

Well, I know, jackie knows that.

Speaker 3: 2:11

I know, I know that. Yeah, yeah News, recent news, super excited about it.

Speaker 1: 2:17

All right, yes, that would be June 18 to 20 in Bonita Springs, florida, so I want to see Jackie's talk. Actually, also one of our other good friends and colleagues, corey Peacock, will be giving a talk on some of the data we collected from the UFC.

Speaker 3: 2:32

Corey's talking again. That's a first while.

Speaker 1: 2:35

I know it has been a while, huh.

Speaker 3: 2:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Tell anyone Corey's secrets for maintaining his composure up there. Anyways, hey, you know what I want to talk a little bit about. You went to Florida State and I'm a big fan of you. Know sort of funny, ironic stories, right you? Here's what's interesting about the world of dietetics. There are conventional dietitians and then there are people like you and we all know what that means. That's the funny part. You don't need that to sleep. We all know what that means. So tell the audience what happened to you while you were going through your master's degree at Florida State, because you know what. It's kind of funny, because look where you ended up. You know you could sort of, you know, go na, na, na, na na. I ended up being quite successful. So tell the audience what happened when you were at Florida State.

Speaker 3: 3:28

Yeah. So we're going to preface this with we're not going to give a shout out to Florida State in any means. They are not responsible for my success. We are not giving them that satisfaction. But, yes, the favorite story that you love me to tell. So when I just got back from that UFC internship and, by the way, that was so when I started my internship our internship director that year left. She just quit unexpectedly.

Speaker 1: 3:57

How old the year? What year is this?

Speaker 3: 4:00

Oh God, well, I think. Okay, so if I did the internship in 2017, then that would have been the summer of 2017. So that would have been the fall of 2017. Okay, so our internship director left unexpectedly. They had to have an interim and it was a complete disaster. The lady who filled in she had no idea what was going on.

Speaker 3: 4:16

All the students, we were basically on our own. It yeah, it was a mess, but I was the first person in the history of Florida State to facilitate that introduction to the UFC, so they didn't have any connections. I'm the one who reached out. I came back. Obviously, it was a great experience. I had glowing recommendations. They loved me. It was such a great experience. And then, come fall 2017, I was starting a new class, advanced metabolism, which was my favorite subject, and the professor who normally taught it also taught the master's level or the graduate level, so I was super excited to take her class again. But that was the first year because they shifted everything that she wasn't teaching that course and they hired a brand new professor to come in and teach that course. And me, being who I am, I'm very skeptical of people, but it's not a bad thing actually.

Speaker 2: 5:09

Oh no, it's required.

Speaker 3: 5:11

Yeah, so I was, you know, and she her bio, you know, you read her bio. She had a really impressive bio but she was really young. But you know, and my, my perception was that okay, well, you know, maybe she's she's inexperienced in the teaching realm, like it was her first year teaching ever, but she's got a really impressive bio, so she's got to be really intelligent. Like she clearly impressed the board or whoever does all the hiring for professors at FSU. Long story short, she came in she could not teach at all.

Speaker 1: 5:41

Wait what does that mean? She could not teach at all.

Speaker 3: 5:44

Give us like an analogy like like she could only read off of PowerPoints.

Speaker 1: 5:50

Oh, that's a no word, that's a word.

Speaker 3: 5:53

When she was asked questions in the class, she asked other students if they could Google it for her.

Speaker 1: 6:00

No, wait, this is a grad class.

Speaker 3: 6:03

Yes, okay, so I'm like, oh great, okay, so my professor can't answer questions. She needs someone to Google it for her. I was like you can't provide additional insight into a topic that we're learning. That's concerning Okay, and she was just kind of regurgitating all the information that we covered in undergrad. So it was an exact. She also taught the undergraduate sections and I'm it just. It literally felt like an exact repeat, so fast forward. Our whole class filed a complaint because it all started when she failed us on our first exam. So it was carbohydrate metabolism, which anyone who studies carbohydrate metabolism you cover it in biochem, chemistry, biology, you know, even in metabolism. So when you're going through your curriculum it's covered so many times that, like, even if you sucked at metabolism, you still understand carbohydrate metabolism. And she failed everyone on that test. It was a take home test. We had a week to do. No, the highest grade was a 78.

Speaker 2: 7:07

So I'm sorry, just written short answer.

Speaker 3: 7:10

It was multiple choice and short answer. So I, you know, I wrote back to her in an email. I complained about my test grade. I, you know, asked her if I could retake it in her class. And you know, because I'm, you know, a little petty, I attached my undergraduate grade that I got and put it in this material, as you can see here.

Speaker 1: 7:36

So immediately she loved you.

Speaker 3: 7:38

She did. She really appreciated that, but fast forward again. So our whole class complained. She got in trouble with department. She didn't get fired. But you know, after that I just think that you know because of my email some of our interaction she didn't like me and so after that semester was over spring semester now come End of spring I was getting ready to graduate. So I had summer semester left, which was just internship. So I was coming down to South Florida, move back home with my parents, start my clinicals and met with all my major professors, my internship director, everything was great. A week before I start internship I get an email from the department saying that I've been temporarily misplaced from the program because you know I'm not sure what the reason is and they reached out to my internship director let them know that I wouldn't be starting that summer because behavioral complaints have been made against me and they didn't think I was fit to represent the university anymore.

Speaker 1: 8:36

I hope they did. You know, redefine plagiarism either Right, right.

Speaker 2: 8:41

I'm just quickly. What does misplaced mean? I don't even know, what that means.

Speaker 3: 8:45

I have no idea. So that's why I call. I had no idea what that means. I was like what do you like? They're just like. They called it a pause. They're like you know, we just don't think you're fit to represent the university at this moment, so you can't continue with the internship. So of course I make all these phone calls.

Speaker 3: 8:57

No one, none of my major professors, knew what the decision was. You know that had been made, and when I called my internship director, the interim, she couldn't give me a straight answer. And so then I took legal action. So I said that I hired a lawyer and that I was going to sue the university and if they didn't, you know, provide me with a meeting, give me additional explanation that I was going to go further with this, with this law case, and so wrap it up. Had a meeting with department chair the dean. They finally got me a meeting. I sat down and we had that. You know, when you like in the movies, when like a kid's in detention and they have those big giant manila folders like you know like the, I bring it in.

Speaker 3: 9:38

It's like the guidance counselor has a file like this file.

Speaker 1: 9:41

You brought your file.

Speaker 3: 9:43

No, I came into the meeting and they had a thick file.

Speaker 3: 9:48

This is the Jackie Kaminsky file and I just throw it on the table and I was just like I'm done, like my God, I don't know what, and but I just sat there super calmly and I was like please tell me what are the allegations that have been brought against me? And all the complaints of this professor for like two semesters was finally complaints against me and it was never brought to my attention. So like I was never brought in to department chair any professors, like it was never, you know, they never complained about my behavior, they never addressed me in an email. But all the complaints were that, you know, from this one professor and she said that I complained about a test grade. So she, you know, printed out that email that I had sent her and she attached in that folder. She said I stopped showing up to class which attendance wasn't mandatory. And I think we can all agree that you know, as adults, that we can decide if we're paying for something, that we can decide to show up or not.

Speaker 1: 10:41

And this is the grad classes.

Speaker 3: 10:42

This is grad. Yeah, this is a grad yeah. She said that I spoke poorly about her in the hallway to another student.

Speaker 1: 10:49

Oh, oh, my God. Yeah, so bad, that's the first time a student has ever spoken poorly about a professor.

Speaker 3: 10:57

And I kind of was just like all right, well, where's your proof? Because that's, you know, that's hearsay, like is what she said, he said. And then, finally, my my favorite one was that I was playing with a girl's hair in class and it was distracting.

Speaker 2: 11:08

Oh my God, no wonder why the seminar was lost by 60 boys.

Speaker 3: 11:18

We have really great disciplinary disciplinary actions yes.

Speaker 1: 11:23

So, okay, you know what's interesting about this. You know I've been teaching. I actually started teaching when I was in grad school and I've never once in my life and I've been doing this for almost three decades thought that I needed to report a student. I've never thought it's just not anything that comes to, even if they're complete dicks or bitches or whatever. I've never it's like okay, there's always, you know, students who are just asses or whatever, maybe don't get along, but I've never thought that.

Speaker 3: 11:54

I mean, a professor, in my opinion, has to be really petty, really do something like that, yeah, what they are to do, because it's just like, unless they're doing something, that's just like you know, like plagiarism or cheating where it's grounds for expulsion, or you know, if you're going to say, hey, like you have to fail, you like this is just unacceptable, you're breaking the code of conduct. Like outside of that. I was just like what? Like you just have an agenda, you know.

Speaker 1: 12:19

Yeah, it sounds like a stupid personality conflict she has.

Speaker 3: 12:21

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:22

So or maybe she just doesn't like you.

Speaker 3: 12:24

She definitely doesn't like me that, but she made that very so. That was. The best part of the story was that after that meeting, they wanted me to write an apology letter to her and then writer also and write a reflective essay at the end of the summer. So I had to take her to think about my actions.

Speaker 1: 12:39

Oh, I'd be so annoyed.

Speaker 3: 12:41

I got put an adult time out and then. So then the best part of it was that I found her in the hallway shortly after that meeting and I addressed her and I just said you know, listen, you know if we had our differences or if I just disrespected you in any way, I'm truly sorry. Can we move on from this? And she goes. I don't like you. I don't think I'll ever like you. If I have any advice is to lose the attitude issue. You have a serious attitude issue and I don't accept your apology.

Speaker 1: 13:14

I don't think someone else has.

Speaker 2: 13:17

Can I ask quick question about check this is a professor, about how old is this person?

Speaker 3: 13:24

She had to be. I think she was like 28 or 29. Okay, I'm gonna say I mean that is acting younger than that but yeah, she was, she was, she was young, and so it was that moment where I kind of thought oh well, you know I'm unfit to represent the university, but this is how your professors speak to their students, understood I'm. This program makes so much sense to me, loud and clear. I got it. Reflective essay done.

Speaker 1: 13:50

So they they paused your studies, or I guess it was the final semester, but you eventually ended up graduating despite all of the you know nonsense.

Speaker 3: 14:00

I started fall. I was reinstated in the fall to finish my internship, so, but I was on thin ice. So you know, anything happened in internship or they got one complaint about me. I was getting kicked out. It was bad. I had to be like on my best behavior and there was one instance where I had a so part of my clinical rotations that I had to present two case studies. And you know I've presented for your classes like I like to be engaging, like to throw jokes in there. So my first case study that I presented was like I think it was on the Whipple procedure is something that you know you do with patients in the hospital and you know. So I remember I did a slide where I made a little joke in the beginning and it was like what comes first because it has to do with pancreatic cancer, what comes first the chicken or the egg? And it was like pancreatic cancer or something else.

Speaker 1: 14:52

Hey, people remember analogies.

Speaker 3: 14:54

Yeah, I just like break the ice and so after that she like basically failed me. I didn't have to teach it Same that it wasn't professional enough. So then the next time, you know I did it, I'm like hands like this, I'm just like various stew and just you know, speaking very like professionally and like you know, educated.

Speaker 1: 15:14

Well, hey, I'm sorry, Tony.

Speaker 2: 15:16

No, no. But yet look at all those somehow or another, Look at all those credentials under right next to her name she made it right.

Speaker 1: 15:24

I did. I did not fall out.

Speaker 2: 15:26

She's the LDN.

Speaker 1: 15:28

And I assume this former professor of yours has no idea what you're doing these days.

Speaker 3: 15:32

No, I do want to rub it on her face. I'd love to run under her.

Speaker 1: 15:37

OK, well, what I found most fascinating about that story is that oftentimes the people who the conventional I guess the conventional wisdom you know sort of in academia, who might view you as a troublemaker, are often the ones that end up shining down the road. Because I had similar issues when I was a grad student and especially when I was faculty. I've had those issues all throughout my entire career. But we love people who are skeptical. We love people who are, you know, who are Mavericks, who are iconic class. Otherwise everybody's saying the exact same shit to everybody else.

Speaker 3: 16:15

We got to ruffle some feathers. That's how we create more space within the field. We dive deeper into topics and we get alternative opinions. And I was just like, yeah, everyone's saying the same thing and there's something wrong.

Speaker 1: 16:31

Yeah, now you're in a field. Tony and I were a bit older than you, so we have seen things that I don't even think you were alive back. Wait, when were you born? 1995. 1995?, tony, do you realize? She didn't even see the initial UFC fights, do?

Speaker 2: 16:49

you realize that, yeah, she wasn't born yet. Yeah, two years, two years. So wait when's birthday again, jack, you're in On December, You're.

Speaker 3: 16:57

December.

Speaker 2: 16:58

Yeah, so it's November of 93. So 25 months as UFC won. Jack joins us here on.

Speaker 1: 17:07

Planet Earth. This is crazy. So I remember you and I well, I remember watching Hoise Gracie and seeing this skinny guy who knew something called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, dominating people, and I'm like, well, this is the coolest thing ever, just all these different styles of fighting. And then we fast forward to 2023. You work with professional fighters of all sorts, whether it's MMA, bare knuckle or whatnot.

Speaker 1: 17:31

For most people and I get this question a lot for students they say and Tony does as well hey, I want to work with pro athletes. I'm like, OK, what kind of pro athletes? And oftentimes they say football, because football's glamorous. Yeah, Good luck, You're not working with football. A lot of that is who you know and you got to be at the right place at the right time and you got to be willing to work for peanuts if you want to get with a pro team. But it is just as esoteric to work with pro fighters, because Tony can come under this at least. In the boxing world there tends to be more I'm not sure what the word is, but because it's existed so much longer, there's more tradition and maybe a lot more kind of think of the word, Not superstition, but they will often do things based on what someone else told them to do years before and years before.

Speaker 3: 18:18

Yeah, I think there's some brain and kind of like old practices and it's just unwillingness to change, because I wouldn't call it clicky, even though it is. Once they have their people, that's fight sports in general. Once they find their people, that's their people. They're not going to find a new coach or go somewhere else unless they lost how to devastating loss, and they figured OK, well, I need to switch things up.

Speaker 1: 18:40

So how did you transition into that? Because it's not something, this isn't a job that they teach you about in grad school Fighting in general or the boxing part. Fighting in general.

Speaker 3: 18:53

So that had a lot to do with that internship at the UFC. So that's at the time. I don't think there were many RDs that even touched fighting, just because it was a bit nuanced in the sense that it kind of goes against everything that you're taught. So it's just because it's extremely unhealthy. We're getting you to lose massive amounts of weight. Crash diet, all these acute weight loss practices to purposely dehydrate 8%, 10% of your body weight crazy stuff. So it's like dietitians are like I'm not going to touch that Makes no sense.

Speaker 3: 19:26

So when I was at the UFC and I started working, so I was there with Clint when he was the director and then I was also there when they had just hired Charles. So Charles was there probably the last month I was there. So I learned a lot from him too, because he's the current director now and it was their internship was still pretty new. So I got to do everything. So I was just doing the nutrition. I was doing the food ordering, I managed the smoothie bar. I did all the sports science testing.

Speaker 3: 19:53

I got to hang out with Heather and physical therapy and watch her processes. I got to follow Bo and do all the strength conditioning. So I got to see all the different parts of it and I made a lot of connections there. A lot of those fighters that I some of them that I'm still close friends with even today A lot of them moved here to South Florida or they live down here. So when I moved back from school I started working at Delray Beach Boxing, which they weren't really attracting professional athletes back then. It was under different management but I just thought, oh, boxing Gym might be a cool space to get into.

Speaker 1: 20:33

Jackie, sorry to interrupt when you say working meaning.

Speaker 3: 20:36

Like front desk. I was front desk. Like this is checking on to the gym.

Speaker 1: 20:41

Sometimes you got to start something. You got to start something.

Speaker 3: 20:43

Yeah, I just wanted to put myself in the space. I just thought, ok, well, if I want to work, because after the UFC internship it just really solidified my love for fighting I thought this is such a niche market and, similar to what you said earlier, everyone wants to get into the major sports football, basketball and baseball and at the time every major sports team had a dietician. At the professional and collegiate level, like you said, you got to be willing to work 70 hours a week for $20,000, $30,000 a year, holidays, work yourself up through the ranks, and I was not interested in that. I go, hmm, where can I make it big really quick and really, like, really fast? And I just, you know, no one touched fighting it. So I thought, oh, what a great niche to get into. South Florida has such a huge market for its perfect. It does, yeah, yeah. And then when I got into that Boxing Gym, I met Marine Shea, who then introduced me to you guys at the first Sports Science Conference.

Speaker 2: 21:39

So I was right here at Nova. I remember when we first met, you were here, yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:43

Yep. So after that, I just decided to start my company in March of 2020. So COVID also helped with that. Because I just graduated, no one was hiring, obviously because the whole world was closed down, and I thought well, I'm not going to wait around for the world to open and it's pretty apparent that I cannot have a boss because I will get fired for misconduct or behavioral issues. So I'm just going to start my own thing, and I did.

Speaker 1: 22:12

You can't fire yourself right.

Speaker 3: 22:14

No, you can't. I can do whatever I want.

Speaker 1: 22:17

Well, you know, what's interesting is one you don't see many women at all that have the kind of interest I'll call it the sports science side whether it's nutrition or strength and conditioning that have an interest in the fight sports in general. So in a way you're sort of this black sheep, or just you stand out, because I would imagine and Tony knows these numbers better it's almost all men that work in that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:43

It is. Fortunately, I think we're seeing more young women. I think, jack, you're a great model for this because, like I, have young students that would like to consider this as a career right, and the fact that really some hardcore dudes whether it's in bare knuckle you work with women too, but you work with plenty of men in boxing, kickboxing, mma, and I think the fact that they have full trust in you is really a good thing. For the young women that want to consider strength and conditioning or doing these fight sports or doing the dietary side, and I try to aspire them to do so. I use you as an example often and say, hey, there's been doing this for three, four years, so she's a very young woman at the time and these athletes put trust in her, so it's very good to see.

Speaker 2: 23:33

I'm not one who says, oh, we have to get more of this or more of that, but I think initially a lot of women were intimidated by it, didn't feel as if they'd be respected, and that was one thing that pushed them away from it. I think now that there's a greater acceptance amongst really hardcore dudes to use women in discipline, fight, skill, discipline too, like, just take a look at Daria, albert, right, daria does the mental skill, daria does skill training. She does it all in a little bit of conditioning. So anyway, good point is you will want to certainly maybe the earliest on women doing this, and I think you're helping a lot of young women who aspire to it. Good work on that Kind of gutsy TfN. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 24:18

So you're basically a trailblazer.

Speaker 3: 24:20

I am? I like to think so.

Speaker 1: 24:22

I was that cool when I got into it. Yeah, I think you should text your former professor that. No.

Speaker 3: 24:27

Like, by the way, I'm like a big figure in this industry, I don't know, kind of a big deal.

Speaker 1: 24:34

So tell the audience a little bit about this, OK. So in dealing with male fighters and female fighters and let's talk specifically about is the nutrition advice you give to both. I assume there are broad generalities that work for everyone, but once you start getting into the month prior to a fight and then the two weeks and one weeks where you got to cut weight, how do you treat men and women differently if there is a sex difference or you just know each fighter individually that well that you can't really go by just male and female?

Speaker 3: 25:08

I think, to start, how you kind of mentioned, you can do a broad generalization, especially for sex cat, you know, for the different sexes. So, like you know, females typically can abide by a certain set of guidelines, males and there's kind of a set in the middle that kind of works for everybody. For me it really is about the individual athlete and I've been after doing this for four years now. No matter what kind of guidelines you create that you want to start off with, every single person is so different and especially so, the one thing with my females that I noticed is especially different, especially as we get closer to the fight, is obviously it's just the menstrual cycle. So they're female physiology, whether on their, they're on birth control, they're not on birth control.

Speaker 3: 25:53

Their age plays a huge factor. I have female athletes that are really young. I have female athletes that are old, like they're in their 40s and maybe they're hitting closer to that perimenopause phase. So there's so many changes that occur that require me to be more considerate of that and what's going on and have to dive into the research a little bit more and even as I'm trying to find patterns, you know, within females in general it is much more. There's a lot more inter variability, so every single one of them is different. I've yet to create a protocol where I'm like, oh yeah, across the board, this seems to work. It's like, nope, every single female is different If you're doing weight cutting effectively.

Speaker 2: 26:33

that's going to happen. Yeah, you would look. Practical application, linear prescription is wonderful. We try to draw some basic guidelines, but it's challenging, right? Because that inter variability, this behavioral factors outside of the physiology that impacted, it's a great challenge and that's one thing I do appreciate about how you're doing it. You understand that it's not only is it going to be the variables, it won't even just be inter variability between person to person, it will be between cut to cut sometimes. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 27:06

Absolutely. I've had cuts with even my, you know, male. We'll say male athletes are much easier to deal with because they're easier to predict. We don't have all these extra variables hormones, things like that are that are maybe playing as much of a factor. But yeah, cuts. I've had cuts with certain male athletes that every single cut has been different.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: 27:24

Trying to utilize, maybe, different tactics, to individualize the approach more. Some are successful, some aren't. And to your point, tony, I think if you can control every single variable, the underlying factor is adherence, because I'm not with them, I'm not always with them. I've had one fighter where, you know, I did spend an entire month with him in Vegas and I cooked every so I controlled everything that went in and out of his mouth. I mean, aside from the times that he admitted he woke up in the middle of the night and snuck into the pantry Cheater. He's a cheater which I gave him a lot of shit for, but so and but.

Speaker 3: 28:02

You know, after that fight the way cut was the best way cut he ever had. As coach said it. I mean, he lost the fight, unfortunately. It was a really big fight, but it was the best camp that he's ever performed and every camp that we've had. After that I haven't been with him, living with him in the house, you know, I've even cooked his meals, but I'm not there with him physically and his adherence to consuming the food I want him to consume at the right times, you know, played a big role in that. And so for my athletes I do most of my coaching is remote, so I'm not with them. So I can write the perfect plan, but if they're not adhering to it 100%, I can't control for that, and so that's going to play a big factor in how you know how effective my programming is and how you know easier, harder weight cut is. Leading up to that, you know, leading up to that.

Speaker 1: 28:44

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head, not just with weight cuts, but diets in general, exercise in general, hell life in general, adherence. Most people have a hard time sticking to a. You know whatever strategies or tactics they need to reach a goal, and it's, in a way, it's not that difficult. You just got to do what you're supposed to do, but a lot of people don't want to do that. Now compare what you do with these fighters versus what you were taught in school, and this is a comparison I want you to make.

Speaker 2: 29:13

They're traditional.

Speaker 1: 29:14

They're ideas within the dietetics world about how you should eat. Okay, so compare and contrast that with sort of the general guidelines you give to fighters not as part of a weight cut, but this is how you should eat. So what did you learn in school versus what you tell? Let's use the broad category athletes. You tell athletes to do.

Speaker 3: 29:35

Yeah, so going through school, I mean you're taught. Everything is spoken very vaguely, so you're taught about. You know they use like the my plate a lot using. You know making sure you're always consuming complex carbohydrates, rich sources of proteins, healthy fats, and you know I feel like we never really got into specific guidelines, it was just a matter of discussing. You know in clinical situations what was required if you had to change dietary needs based off of what a patient was experiencing or more counseling. You know how to talk people through what their struggles are. Where you may be, there is, you know, some sort of block or trying to think what's the word. I'm trying to think like there's something preventing them from being able to adhere to a program or if they have a fear of food. So it wasn't so much.

Speaker 3: 30:35

You know different, it's just really niche with the fighting. So, especially in the sports realm we talk about you know how carbs are good for endurance athletes, how to fuel with simple carbs for high intensity workouts. Complex carbs if they have longer duration workouts can mix them in. How proteins really great for power athletes, for maintaining lean mass or for preserving tissue and calorie deficits. But nothing was ever discussed in terms of extreme circumstances.

Speaker 3: 31:06

So that's where the fighting was really different in terms of what I had to practice and what I think is still maybe lacking a little bit in the research, like I'd love to get into that at some point. You know, if I pursue my PhD, you know we understand like low energy availability, that's studied because I mean, you know, look at endurance athletes or these you know, ultra marathoners, ironmans, whoever they just the volume of training they do is so much that there's no way that they could eat that much food in a day to replace this run into all these issues, but with fighting it's, you know, maybe we see it in the bodybuilding community, but bodybuilding does it have that, I think, that volume and intensity that fighting does.

Speaker 3: 31:44

So it's really playing with that. You know, energy restriction, like what are the absolute limits that we can kind of bring someone down to before we're causing long term issues, whether that's mentally, hormonally, physiologically and in terms of their career and their performance?

Speaker 1: 32:00

Yeah, I know the ACSM guidelines which I don't teach and I don't use, but I remember telling them way back. When you know the only in terms of rate of weight loss you can lose safely one to two pounds a week and that's what's ingrained in everyone and everybody knows that is exposed to sports One to two pounds a week.

Speaker 3: 32:24

Or the big one is 500 to a thousand calorie deficit to lose weight. That's like the magic number. So that's yeah, what you're taught and you're like not in this world.

Speaker 1: 32:38

What about in terms of? I know there's always that discrepancy in terms of protein intake, athletes sending to consume a lot more than you know what typically is recommended by clinical nutrition.

Speaker 3: 32:50

So clinical nutrition, I think they still push the 0.8 to one gram per kilo Even still. I mean, that was like what they taught and you know, when I was in school, those were the guidelines. I think clinically maybe up to 1.2 when we took a sports nutrition class. That's when they talked about higher intakes, especially among strength athletes or body builders, but I think that was the biggest. I think that's just like the biggest gap in terms of what we see in the field for people who practice versus what's still being pushed from a national perspective, is that this whole thing, like we're going to emphasize higher carb intake or higher fat intake and it's just like okay, both of those, like over the years, have clearly caused problems with people. Look at, like the trends in diets over the decades, like super low fat or super low carb. You know what about? What would you say? Eat higher protein. That will fix a lot of your problems. There's no issues associated with the high protein intake.

Speaker 1: 33:51

But why do you think that gap or that discrepancy it's existed since? Put it this way I did my undergrad and Tony were about the same age, and you know and Ronald Reagan was president.

Speaker 2: 34:03

I don't know if you remember Ronald Reagan, jackie I know who he is, but I don't know what he's in.

Speaker 1: 34:08

So the very the only nutrition class I took as an undergrad, I remember the professor was an older you know older woman who said you know Athletes that eat all this protein it's bad for your kidney. So it's not like this idea has been. This goes way back and the fact that it still exists today is still real.

Speaker 3: 34:27

So people can say it yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:29

It's weird. I mean, don't you find it weird?

Speaker 3: 34:32

I think it's strange, especially when there's like, especially with Instagram and social media, and there's all these people showing how much protein they eat and all these researches and everyone coming out with like no, like, this is what you're supposed to do. And people are like oh no, yeah, it's still bad. Like I still have clients who they're not. They're not fighters or non-athletes, but I have clients who have gone to the doctor. They've gotten blood work and you know they'll report that they're creatinine or some sort of level is high. And they immediately tell them oh, you can't eat protein anymore. And I'm like okay, well, like were you working out before you got that done? Like you know what's going on here. You're working out a lot. Like just high protein intake in general is like. That doesn't mean they're like oh, yeah, it's bad for your kidneys. Like doctors still say that.

Speaker 1: 35:14

Yeah, that's insane. That is just insane that yeah, you have physicians, that, but you know, at hey medicine, I mean you've seen how medicine's been just absolutely insanely crazy in the last three years.

Speaker 3: 35:27

Oh, I think I'm gonna become a doctor, because it's super easy you just talk to somebody, you listen to their problem and then you go here's an antibiotic.

Speaker 1: 35:34

Here's a pill.

Speaker 3: 35:35

Oh my God, I'm gonna be the best doctor ever. You don't like that pill. That's what.

Speaker 2: 35:40

America relies on so.

Speaker 3: 35:41

I'm not gonna do any tests, I'm just gonna look at you antibiotic.

Speaker 1: 35:46

Yeah, that's a yeah, the whole antibiotic thing. And you know we had that guess way last year, tony talking about the gut microbiome, how important it is.

Speaker 2: 35:57

Oh yeah, Dr. Sarah, yeah, yeah, and that you know the.

Speaker 1: 36:02

Even though antibiotics were a great invention I mean certainly for dealing with bacterial infection people don't realize there's always another side to these medicines. Most people think, oh, they're the greatest things in the world. I'm like you never know down the road, you know if there's issues related to it. And it brings me to the weight cutting. This is sort of a separate issue. In terms of weight cutting, do you know of athletes are using any of the GLP-1 agonists to help loop the loose weight, ozempic or anything like that?

Speaker 3: 36:29

I haven't heard of it. No, I mean, obviously it's probably illegal. So if they were to get tested and caught, Is that wait, tony?

Speaker 1: 36:37

would that be?

Speaker 2: 36:38

illegal. I don't think it's been considered yet. It probably will be.

Speaker 3: 36:44

Cause Tony, insulin's not allowed. I remember when I was researching Right right. So peptides are supposed to be out right.

Speaker 2: 36:51

Yeah, growth BP, what is it? I don't know much about peptides. I don't get into the whole drug thing cause I don't, but nevertheless there's only been rumored, joey. So far there's no knowledge of anybody really doing it. I am sure it's going to be considered, though I'm sure it's going to be considered in wrestling, you know, at the higher levels, because when you have to lose weight right, these guys are doing this over three, four months. They're not doing this for one fight.

Speaker 3: 37:21

No, yeah, and they're doing it on a weekly basis, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2: 37:24

So I would assume that those are going to be considered and probably there's probably some use in the sport right now. But again, what would it do? It would mitigate appetite and delay gastric dampening, which, by the way, isn't all that good for your weight to begin.

Speaker 3: 37:43

And you're on the risk of your stomach getting paralyzed. Have you seen those articles?

Speaker 2: 37:46

Yeah, there's apparently now some of the side effects I guess after six months to one year of use are starting to develop now you know, but to date I don't record. I'm not familiar with anybody discussing it, but I know it's been a concern. There's been a lot of people bringing that up, and will this be a part of weight cutting soon?

Speaker 1: 38:08

Hmm. I mean, what is it? Weight cutting itself isn't exactly the healthiest behavior. So I mean, whether or not these drugs on top of that make it more unhealthy in a way is kind of a weird point to make, because the entire process isn't healthy, I mean competitive athletics isn't healthy.

Speaker 3: 38:30

I think the entire process isn't healthy. I think most of them, you know they already engage in practices Like they take diuretics, they do enemas, they already do all these sorts of things to help lose massive amounts of weight, and it's I just think that the more you add, and just again you're adding more variables to something that's already sensitive, that so it's like I think you're just going to further mess up the process and if something goes wrong or you end up in the hospital, you have no idea what contributed to it, because now you're adding all these additional things that you really probably shouldn't.

Speaker 2: 39:04

No, that's a great point, jackie, because really the primary, the first goal, isn't even do no harm in weight cutting, it's try to stop things from going wrong, yeah, but you don't even try to do anything right. The first goal is first stop everything from going wrong. And by just adding more drugs right and more, you've, just you've, you've opened up the propensity or possibility for greater side effects and greater malfunction. So you spot on that.

Speaker 3: 39:34

But then. But then you're introducing that into situations where there's most of the people, when they're doing a weight cut, their team members don't have any medical backgrounds. True, they don't know what to do if someone passes out or feints or if they feel like they're not tracking. They're not like us, they're not tracking blood pressure and heart rate and all these metrics. So you're, you know, you're dealing with people who are just oh yeah, that that seems normal, or I don't know if that seems normal or not, and you're like OK, awesome, this is a great game that we're playing. The blind leading the blind.

Speaker 1: 40:07

Hey, if it works for one person, hey, maybe it works for another person, right? Hey, we're at the tail end of the podcast. I want to delve into supplements. So what are some of the typical supplements that you would recommend for fighters? Is it different for men and women? Would it be different as they approach the weight cut, obviously, you know, with things like creatinine, et cetera, et cetera. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3: 40:31

So my top one lately has been asked as anthin. I'm obsessed with it Really. Yes, I love ever since it was. Karen Hacked presented it at ISSN and I talked to her. I use it with all my athletes. I'm not testing blood markers so I don't know what's going on, but I've gotten really great feedback from all of my athletes and recovery, things like that and for me, recovery is the most important aspect with working with fighters I think any athlete in general, because that's the one part that they never focus on. They're go, go, go, go go and they're not going to stop, even if you tell them. So recovery is my main point yeah, just quickly.

Speaker 2: 41:06

can you tell everyone what are you using that for?

Speaker 3: 41:08

primarily it's for recovery, so it's to help with muscle soreness. Soreness, OK. Increase energy. I've heard some people say it helps them sleep better. But it's essentially at the cellular level. It's explained that it helps fight reactive oxygen species. So just any sort of inflammation, especially from exercise, can reduce CRP levels. So again, just muscle recovery. Ok, oh OK.

Speaker 2: 41:34

Well, many of the inflammatory cascades too, potentially yeah.

Speaker 3: 41:38

Yeah, and then immunity it's a really great immune booster. Ok good, oh, that's a big one. I love creatine, but I use it sparingly. It's a case by case situation. I have one guy, for example if he takes creatine today, he puts on 30 pounds tomorrow. So there's like he does not allow to touch it at all. He did it like unknowingly. He told me his weight bumped up. He was like 190. And then, like a week later he was like 200 pounds. I go, what the heck happened to you? My wife mixed the creatine with the protein powder and I had no idea that it was in there and I was like, oh, my god.

Speaker 2: 42:15

I know that people who know creatine so well don't believe that. I did 10 grams for one week. I was almost 11 pounds heavier.

Speaker 3: 42:26

Yeah, no.

Speaker 2: 42:27

I was already doing five, but then I went to 10 and I went to 11 pounds.

Speaker 1: 42:30

Yeah, but Tony, you were strong, I was lifting pounds.

Speaker 2: 42:33

Oh, I was using I don't even lift weights, I was using 120 pound dumbbells like they were rattles. I was walking around with a lot of strength. I feel like shake weights.

Speaker 1: 42:45

Yeah, you know what? That by itself would be an interesting study, that there are hyper responders to creatives. Yeah, but yeah, so obviously that guy stay away from creatinine. What else?

Speaker 3: 42:56

Every protein beta alanine Love it.

Speaker 3: 43:00

Again, love it. I just think, from a performance standpoint, just allows them to maintain that high anaerobic capacity a little bit longer, that explosiveness, and then, other than that, it'll just be a probiotic just again. The gut health aspect, I think with everything that they're eating, especially if they're taking supplements or they're not. They consume a lot of sport-based snacks. I don't think they're always great for your gut health and I'm really big on how that influences mind health, recovery, everything. And if it's not that, then it's just like a general multivitamin. So vitamin D, probably the biggest one out of all those, because they're inside all the time and we know how much that influences immunity, muscle growth, things like that. So those would be like my top ones.

Speaker 1: 43:46

Do you give specific recommendations for carbs, fat, protein in terms of grams consumed per kilo, or they don't worry about it, you just say this is what you got to do.

Speaker 3: 43:58

So how my plans work. When I am meal plan for them, I don't like anyone to count calories or grams of carbs, because they're also not going to.

Speaker 1: 44:04

Right.

Speaker 3: 44:05

And they're not all of them. I love all of them, but they're not always like the brightest bulbs. You know, in the tanning bed Sure, I was on the dry.

Speaker 1: 44:16

So you do the counting.

Speaker 3: 44:18

I do, yeah, I do all the work on the back end. I plug in all the numbers, I do the ranges and then I just translate that into food and I just say you need to eat this for breakfast, this is your pre-workout, this for lunch, dinner, et cetera, and exact amounts. If you get this, then I know that you're saying within the range that I kind of need you to be in.

Speaker 1: 44:36

So you simplify it, you dummy it down.

Speaker 2: 44:38

I literally like as stupid as possible, Like eat two eggs or something they don't want to count right, they don't want to count.

Speaker 3: 44:45

They don't want to think about it. I talk to all of them Like I just I think of every fighter is that they're like like my eight year old little sister If she can't understand it, they're not gonna understand it.

Speaker 1: 44:55

So you run it by your sister. That's too funny. You're using some protein.

Speaker 2: 45:03

No, but you're using some protein we're needed, jackie or no D.

Speaker 3: 45:06

I love some protein powder I use all the time, but I don't really consider that a supplement anymore.

Speaker 2: 45:10

No, I agree with you.

Speaker 3: 45:11

yeah, Like across the board. That's just like you know, protein is protein. If we need to get it in, get it in Not verbally from food, but you know some of them with the convenience of, you know, a smoothie just protein powder and water after practice is easiest.

Speaker 2: 45:24

So yeah, the drinks are so good for those men and women who have the multiple sessions on a daily basis too. Right, I mean just to get in some quick protein, and you know that's what I use it for in between sessions yeah, but if I'm being honest, I'm not big on this.

Speaker 3: 45:38

Like too many supplements, like I just like to implement the ones that I think will 100% work. So that would be like my asses. And then the creatine, the beta alanine, everything else. I rather them get it through food. I don't like to rely on so many powders and pills and have them take like a pharmacy, like a CVS pharmacy, every single morning before they go train, just cause I just I think the adherence would be really low and I think it's just better if they can actually consume it in local foods. They'll be more satisfied.

Speaker 1: 46:04

Yeah, I've always think, out of all the supplements, particularly because of the energy systems you know that involved in MMA I've always thought beta alanine is probably one of the best, mainly because you produce so much I mean the glycolysis and the hydrogen ions you produce beta alanine. Or even well, what's funny sodium bicarb probably works as well, but nobody uses sodium bicarbonate, I guess because of GI distress.

Speaker 3: 46:29

Rode to keep down. Yeah, so I'm not gonna have to be a big use baking soda if they just took like spoonfuls of baking soda.

Speaker 1: 46:35

I know I've tried it. It's like I cannot stomach baking.

Speaker 3: 46:39

That sounds really gross.

Speaker 1: 46:40

Like idiots.

Speaker 2: 46:41

Yeah, yeah it's really bad. I've tried it, oh God. Many years ago, but not.

Speaker 1: 46:48

Well, Jackie, we're towards the end. Tell the audience where they can find you if they need to find you on Instagram or Twitter or whatever, and if you, other than ISSN, which is in June, if you're gonna be giving any talks or seminars.

Speaker 3: 47:02

No seminars, but you can find me on Instagram at the Fight Nutritionist.

Speaker 3: 47:05

This is where I'm most active and I have a website. Fightnutritionistcom can find me there and, as of recently, I'm launching something called Fight Club. It is modeled after the movie Okay, so called Fight Club. It's for non fighters. It's just for people who are regular individuals but they train like athletes and they just need some more direction because they're still not able to meet their goals. But they're motivated individuals. They wanna learn more about nutrition, maybe get a good strength conditioning program and get access to one-on-one coaching, but don't wanna pay the one-on-one price.

Speaker 1: 47:42

Where will the Fight Club be held? I assume that you still gotta fight.

Speaker 3: 47:46

No, no. So it's not actual fighting. We're just modeling the Fight Club, but the link is on my website. I have a whole landing page. We're gonna start mid-February, beginning of March, capping it at 20 people, but whoever the winner is, they will be able to get a good start. Music.