Stepping off the well-trodden path, Dr. Trisha Van Dusseldorp left the certainty of tenure for the undiscovered potential of industry—and what a journey it's been. Today, she takes us behind the scenes at Bonafide Health, where she's pioneering advancements in women's health, and candidly shares the calculus of her career leap. From the tug-of-war between the allure of academia and the pulse of corporate life to balancing scientific integrity with commercial pressures, Trisha gives the low-down on the pros and cons of working in the industry.
00:00:05 Industry Versus Academia
00:08:19 Challenges of HR at Bonafide and Pfizer
00:15:09 R&D and Clinical Trials Promoting Products
00:19:33 Animal Models, Menopause, and Weight Loss
00:24:56 Women's Health and Menopause Challenges
00:39:13 Brain Fog and Mushrooms in Industry
00:45:49 ISSN Conference
Stepping off the well-trodden path, Dr. Trisha Van Dusseldorp left the certainty of tenure for the undiscovered potential of industry—and what a journey it's been. Today, she takes us behind the scenes at Bonafide Health, where she's pioneering advancements in women's health, and candidly shares the calculus of her career leap. From the tug-of-war between the allure of academia and the pulse of corporate life to balancing scientific integrity with commercial pressures, Trisha gives the low-down on the pros and cons of working in the industry.
00:00:05 Industry Versus Academia
00:08:19 Challenges of HR at Bonafide and Pfizer
00:15:09 R&D and Clinical Trials Promoting Products
00:19:33 Animal Models, Menopause, and Weight Loss
00:24:56 Women's Health and Menopause Challenges
00:39:13 Brain Fog and Mushrooms in Industry
00:45:49 ISSN Conference
Welcome to the Sports Science Dudes. I am your host, Dr Jose Antonio, with my co-host, Dr Tony Ricci. If you're a first-time listener, hit the subscribe button and like the show. You can find us on YouTube, Brumbles, Bonifit and Apple Podcasts. Our special guest today is Dr Trisha Van Dusseldorf. She is the director of clinical research at Bonifit Health, the under BS and Exercise Science from southwest Minnesota state, where it is butt kicking cold right now.
Speaker 1:Her master's degree in human performance and applied sport science from the University of Wisconsin. La Crosse Lots of cheese and beer and she got her PhD in ex-FIS, with an emphasis on nutritional biochemistry, from the University of New Mexico. Trisha is also a certified sports nutritionist and adjunct professor at Jacksonville University, where she teaches courses on nutrition and dietary supplements. She's authored over 75 peer-reviewed manuscripts and three book chapters in the areas of nutrition, dietary supplements and exercise physiology, and if you happen to catch her on social media, she likes to post pictures around a bike I know my wife loves cycling as well.
Speaker 1:And, of course, your dogs, your super cute dogs, willow and Roscoe. And she loves coffee, just like the rest of us, so that alone makes her a great, great person. Her favorite part of her work is the profound opportunity to enhance women's health through the innovation of groundbreaking treatment. So, trisha, welcome to the sports science dudes.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me Appreciate the invite.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Tony and I, you know we're excited to have you. I know the three of us have an interesting background because all three of us have worked in the industry and in fact, Tony, you work probably an industry longer than all of us. Yeah, you worked at Pfizer. I worked for a company called Royal Numico, which at the time owned it owned Metrix, Rexall, Sundown, GNC, Worldwide Sport and at the time it was based in Boca. And then I started that coffee company and, Trisha, you know I think it caught a lot of people by surprise that you left Tennessee State and went over to industry. So there's a lot of things that people want to know about industry versus academia. Tell us your thoughts about why you made the change, what are the pros and what are the cons?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a great question. It probably surprised me too, because I had no plans Like I thought that I would be in academia my entire career. I got into it for the teaching and the research aspects and Kenesaw State was a great university, you know great fit for me. So it was very much a tough decision. I was kind of in the period of time in my career where I was tenured and I started doing a lot more research in women's health and Doug Kalman actually sent me the posting and said hey, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to work under Jim Komarowski, the chief scientific officer, who many people know from Nutrition 21 and the sports nutrition realm. But they the same CEO had started bona fide health around 2011. So while they were building Nutrition 21, jim was also working on IP and products in the women's health space, because they knew that they were going to sell Nutrition 21 and then start focusing on bona fide. So I set my CV in and it was such an interesting ride because then I got a call right away.
Speaker 3:You know, let's do an interview. So I'm like well, isn't there a preparation time? You know I get on this interview and they're like okay, you'll meet Jim tomorrow, you'll fly to New York. I interviewed and you know, they offered me the job the next day and I took it Now and it was really quick and I probably wouldn't have left for just any company.
Speaker 3:But it's the work in women's health that they're doing, the amount of money that they invest in time and what it means to them on the research side is what caught my eye and why, doug, I thought it would be a good fit, so yeah, it probably took a bunch of people by surprise. Really hard for me to lose or to leave my students. I actually stole one of them who works for me full time. It's like, don't be your master's degree, come work for me full time and then we'll send you back.
Speaker 3:You know if you want to or we'll pay for your students. So it was the right fit for me. It's definitely not the right fit for everyone, but pros for me are, you know, when you get in a company that's investing a lot of money in R&D and you can be really proud of the scientific merit and contribute in that way, I think it's a really good fit. But not all companies are like that. You could get into a company that's not operating in that manner. So they're definitely pros and cons for especially young folks to look out. If you're going in just for the salary, you might not be happy with the science, especially if you're academic minded and research minded.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think a lot of people will like the salary In industry that you know they tend to pay more than academia.
Speaker 1:I think the I guess. Well, the pressure, it's different kind of pressure in industry. I mean, there's a bottom line that has to be made and you know, one of the things I learned in industry and I'm sure, Tony, you learned this at Pfizer is that the people you find out within a corporate structure, okay, who really are the most important people. And this is what I found out. And I don't know if it's the same in Boniface. I was actually hired to work in scientific affairs and in fact it was Jeff Stout who got me the job down here in Florida and that's why I moved to Florida. In fact, I was looking for an excuse to move to Florida. Basically, it's like I'm going to Florida and prior to moving Trisha, you'll like this story the semester was about to start at the University of Delaware. I was faculty there, tenure track. They were actually building a muscle physiology lab for me. I mean, it was. They were, you know, doing everything I asked for the weekend. It was a weekend. I found out Jeff's like hey, we got a position for you. I'm like I'm there. And then I realized, wait a minute, the semester starts Monday. I walk into the chair's office Monday, I told her I'm leaving. The semester is literally starting the next day and she gave me this look like daggers, like I don't even know if she said anything, I'm not even sure she said good luck. I was like in my mind, I'm like I'm leaving, I'm going to Florida, I want to live in Florida, I don't want to live in Delaware. So it was kind of a weird thing. I'm like I don't think I've stepped foot in Delaware after that. But okay, so moving down here, working for Rexall, sundown or actually Royal New Maco, gnc, whatever you want to call it was all one big company.
Speaker 1:I worked in scientific affairs. This is how what I like about corporations and a lot of this depends on leadership. I don't know what it's like there. You can tell us. I actually didn't want to work in scientific affairs. I went to the CEO at the time and I said his name is Ralph. I'm like, hey, ralph, can I work in marketing? He looks at me like well, why would you want to work in marketing? I said because they look like they're having fun. The scientific affairs people look like they're bored out of their minds and they don't like each other. And he looked at me like do you know anything about marketing. I'm like I don't know anything about marketing.
Speaker 1:To be honest I don't know. But hey, I can learn, and he sort of like thinks he was thinking. He's like, okay, we'll move you to marketing. And so I went to marketing and here's Trisha. It's so funny. For the first three or four months I'm like I have no idea what these people are talking about. I have no idea. So are you in scientific affairs or marketing or how's the structure at Bonafide?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm housed in R&D. There is marketing and they're the largest department In terms of Bonafide size. We have kind of 60 in-house employees and then we have a sales team, also across the US. We only sell within the United States, so we're separated, but we do have marketing. And then we do have a research marketing liaison that we work with and she actually was in R&D to start and then realized that she did like marketing, but it was great because she could interpret what we're doing over to them.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 3:I'd say at Bonafide all the departments have a really good time, but I'd say R&D is the most fun.
Speaker 3:Like we play all the dance you know, and when I'm up in the office I decorate the office for birthdays, because you don't always get to spend a lot of time together working remote and marketing. So looking at us like, hey, what are you guys doing over there? What's happening? So you know, everybody at Bonafide, they're really good at their jobs. It's unbelievable the amount of people who are just so good and how efficient we are with that number, Because we probably could use a lot more. But highly efficient, highly productive, just really good people.
Speaker 1:So all that on department-wise. Yeah, far as scientific affairs was as fun as yours, I probably would have never considered marketing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the other thing for me is that I built my team, so I have some of my former students and that helps. Right, the fit developed this model where people intern and then we can offer them a full-time job. Usually we want to keep them around, but by putting them in that internship we see how they fit within the model or within the team.
Speaker 1:So Honey, what was it like to open?
Speaker 2:Pfizer, I'm sorry, go on, do it oh.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask what was it like at Pfizer when you worked over at Pfizer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we were under different.
Speaker 2:I was under the HR umbrella. So things different, they're very different. You know you don't have to the pressure per se of demonstrating, obviously, revenue, but you have a lot of pressure to try to establish ROI and the methodologies, particularly at the time that I was in corporate wellness, weren't very strong. So that was the greater challenge. Right, we're putting nearly 60 million into a health and wellness program under the HR umbrella and I would be in charge of establishing many of the internal wellness programs, promoting those programs, going site to site, speaking on health, wellness, nutrition, getting people to utilize the portal. We'd also do that cholesterol screenings, all types of health screenings.
Speaker 2:But it was really a wonderful opportunity and a great job. But, like anything else, that type of amenity, it's a wonderful thing and it does bring a lot of people to the company during the hiring process, but it is also the first to take some hints when there are budget cuts. Right, it's something that's really nice. It brings employees in. They love the idea that almost every site in the US has a fitness center, has all these programs that you can participate in, You're getting discounts on your insurance for fitness participation. But again, to reiterate, there's a lot of internal investment and showing that you're getting money back on that $60 million investment is pretty challenging.
Speaker 3:So that was our greatest obstacle.
Speaker 2:But these programs have since been diminished in size and they're significantly smaller. So one thing under the HR umbrella and I think Trish will know this well things have to be going really well in order for you to build those types of programs that are really they're a bonus to the employee.
Speaker 3:Agreed. We don't have anything like that because bona fides are small at this point, but now that we've been acquired by PharmaBite they have really well-established programs in HR, which is gonna be great for us because we've always said, hey, we want more of that. Can we get some more interaction in terms of classes? Or leadership opportunities for the junior folks that they can sit in or programs and sorts, and we just haven't had any of that. But with PharmaBite they have all of those programs.
Speaker 2:And it's great. It really is. It's a great, like we said, amenity and the quality of the work environment. It really is improved with it. How big is bona fide now about employee size, trish?
Speaker 3:So 120 total. Everybody stayed with the acquisition. So essentially what happened with the acquisition is PharmaBite bought us. Pharmabite's based on California. They own Nature Made also, so that's the largest brand dietary supplements which everybody knows of right the yellow wals at Walmart and other stores but they also own some other smaller brands.
Speaker 3:They own Mega Food, but also in the women's health space they have Ucora and Quel and they have a women's health research unit actually in San Diego. At this point the plan is it's business as usual for now. But how we're gonna operate with those two brands too? Because we sell primarily through doctor recommendations. We have thousands of doctors around the US that women come in and they say I don't wanna use hormones or they are not a candidate for hormone replacement therapy. Then those doctors need to offer alternatives, and one of the alternatives they offer is bona fide.
Speaker 3:And so they're unpaid for this. The thing that happens is they're given like a QR code and they have to go to the website, and they were subscription based. One model we're trying to work on is we're actually trying to get it into the system where they can actually just be prescribed non-hormonal dietary supplements, so we would have it at the pharmacies and certain pharmacies around. So we haven't increased our size in terms of employees, but there's gonna be this interesting merging of sorts, because Firmivite and their women's brands are really good at retail. We don't do a lot of retail at this point, so how will we interact and merge with them?
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit about the R&D or actually specifically research. If you go back and Tony and I were a bit older than you, so if you go back to the old Weeder days of the 1980s, when Joe Weeder was selling products, let's face it, advertisements in print magazines was the way they promoted their products, and there was. I was about to say there was little in those signs and I don't think there was any signs. Everyone was sort of guessing they were making structure function claims At the time based on nothing. And let's sort of fast forward to the 90s when the original Creates and Papers came out, you know by Greenhoff and Paris, and it was like wow, there's a supplement that might actually be worth something, you know, in addition to protein and caffeine. Fast forward to the 2000,. And, as you're well aware, trisha, the role of ISSN and sort of bridging the gap between industry and science and trying to introduce the two. At this point I'd like your opinion on this.
Speaker 1:Most sports supplement companies still do not do clinical trials on their products. In fact, there are some very famous people on Instagram, phds, who are hawking their products, who don't ever do a clinical trial at all on anything related to their products and I've always thought, okay, this industry gets, they get a lot of below the belt punches. Some of it deserve a lot of it undeserved. What do you think, I guess? What is the role or your view of R&D? You know your personal view and also bonafide. What are they doing in terms of promoting? You know clinical trials or scientific research for products, and we all know costs a lot. So I mean, I've been on your side. It's like it costs a lot. You can just do a study on something. You still got to make money to keep the company going.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and I totally agree. It's in. The majority of companies aren't doing that. What those companies are really good at are spending marketing dollars and getting people to buy their products and then they realize that they don't have to because they have a really dedicated customer portfolio. Right, they have that profile and those people are returning and they're telling other people and until something major happens, they just continue down that road which.
Speaker 3:I don't think you know personally, I don't think that's the right. You know the right answer and it's one reason I like, I like bonafide. So we essentially operate a preclinical clinical pipeline which I'm really proud of. We do full you know full preclinicals, bench top science with our ingredients, various formulations. Sometimes we'll test hundreds of formulations, which is pretty unheard of. We will do animal model studies.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:You know, and some people, some people are like oh you know, these companies they put not tested in animals. Well, that ingredient was tested in an animal at some point. So you know, that's how I feel about it. I think it's good science. So we tend to do some animal model studies, look at the mechanistic responses and receptor data. And one thing that we kind of do, you know and as our bread and butter, is, we watch new drugs that are being released and what mechanisms are they using, and then we try to mimic that and we're never going to be as good as a drug more by far not anti-drug or not an anti-hormone company but if we can be 60, 70, 80% as good for a period of time, then we consider that a total win. So as a group we'll look at that data and if it looks good we'll move it into the clinical phase.
Speaker 3:And something that I'm really proud of that we built is we're running internal clinical trials to pilot before we go to a double blind, to CBO control trial, because we need to learn about what's happening. What are these women saying? What questionnaires actually make sense? Do they even understand what we're asking them? Because so many women don't even know what the terminology is or the symptoms they're having or how to convey that to someone. So we do those internally and then we tend to run two to three double blind studies placebo controlled external from us, so people can't say that we're being biased. But we spend a ton of money and a lot of companies don't. But it's something that we're really proud of and we tend to do that because we think it's ethically right. But also we need to convince doctors that this product is good and it's safe. And if we're doing that, you know how doctors can be right. They can not so sure. So if we have that good of data, then you can feel good about it.
Speaker 1:Now, in terms of the clinical trials, how many of these? I'm sure you're now aware of what it's like to work with, maybe the FDA or FTC and making certain structure function claims. How is it viewed via bonafide in terms of clinical trials, human clinical trials done in the US versus outside the US? Also, how the FDA and FTC view human clinical trials versus I guess animal would be the next sort of level. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't have anything against doing external, outside of the US trials. There's some really good labs there. I'd say that they're not always as well accepted when it comes to regulations and, looking at the data, are not as well trusted Animal models. There's a time and place for it, but I think if you're making human structure function claims, it should be in the model that you're making, and so I do like the animal model structure pretty clinically. But I think if we're going you're going to make claims about a human, then I think it should be showing in the human model, and some people do. They want to just do rodent only and make claims, and I don't think that's a wise. It's definitely different. Physiology, of course, is similar. There's a time and place for it, but I'm definitely more of structure function claims. They use the model that it's in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's impossible to get away from human trials. I remember back in the nineties there was a gentleman I forget what university he was from. He was presenting some really cool data on CLA, conjugated linoleic acid, and it was all in rodents. And when rodents took it I was like wow, their body composition proved like crazy. Lost fat mass, I think. They may even gain skeletal muscle mass, which is something you could measure directly in a rodent. And then you sort of you tried to translate that Now let's do human trials and CLA doesn't do shit. I mean, it barely does shit, I guess.
Speaker 1:So it's one of those it's like okay, it works. I put this away If there was a pet rat industry. Every supplement works for damn rodents.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's like how much of what we find in animal models and I know a lot of it is mechanistic, because my PhD was in I used an animal model how much of that can actually translate into what we see in humans, because your company, I assume the primary goal is your promoting health right, health and wellness in women, and I don't know what age range you guys, what's your target demographic?
Speaker 3:Yeah, menopausal mostly. We have some products that are targeted for younger than that, but it's mostly peri to post menopausal in older.
Speaker 1:Are there animal models for something like that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you over-ectimize the animals, oh, and you go about it that way. So it's surgically induced, right? So what about the natural menopause state, which is totally different and you can do that, it just takes longer, right? You can at least buy. You know, they obviously have to age, right? So you use an over-ectomized animal model and it's not exact, right? When I look at the receptor binding activity, which is what we tend to do a lot, that's pretty good data. It usually translates well. But if you were talking weight loss or looking at feeding studies, I think that that is a whole different game. And people like to hang their hat on animal model and rodent model research. And this does this for weight loss because they did an animal model and that translation, I mean, we're all smart enough to know that that doesn't happen very often.
Speaker 1:Quick question the age of young girls getting their first period.
Speaker 3:Going down.
Speaker 1:It's getting younger and younger and younger and I don't know if there are. Are there race or ethnic differences in terms of that? Yeah, is there geographic differences, like in South Florida? I noticed when our kids were playing softball when they were quite young that there was. I think Hispanic girls tended to have it earlier than non-Hispanic girls, and that's just us visually seeing them, like wow, all of a sudden these girls are having a growth spurt and and they look taller than the other girls and then you realize everyone else just catches up. So what's what's going on there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting and there's been more articles coming out. I do think there are race and ethnic differences that I've read about also. It's similar in the menopause state, where Caucasian women have a different experience than African American or Hispanic women. So you know it's interesting. Your, your guess is as good as mine in terms of, maybe, hormonal fluctuations, but I think body mass index has something to do with it too. Increase in BMI, increase in fat mass, has been associated with earlier onset of menstrual cycle, and you know specific hormone profile associated with that. I'm not, I'm not exactly sure what that is yet. I think we still have a lot to learn about it, but I think that's one one reason you know increased fat mass has been associated with that.
Speaker 2:So perhaps that's a starting yeah. Does that correlate with? Do we see the correlation there? Just like, as BMI has went up and if we look at maybe you know the BRFSS and their behavior with surveillance surveys and all there's a, is there a pattern that's going from an increase there and that's where that's starting that decline potentially?
Speaker 3:That's, that's what I've I've seen and it makes sense. You know it makes sense, but we have a lot to learn still. And then that has been correlated also with earlier onset in menopause. So now you have earlier onset in mencies and then earlier onset in menopause in these individuals.
Speaker 1:Now going to the, I guess, other extreme in terms of let's deal with perimenopause or menopause and the association between obesity and symptoms of menopause. So sort of try to tie that in with the body positivity movement and how the promotion of I hate to say it, the promotion of obesity is becoming, is becoming normalized, as if this is just another way to live in your body. What are your thoughts on that and what is Bonifide doing in terms of? Are there products or supplements that might help with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, in terms of products, on our end, we don't make any, you know any products for overweight, obese individuals. I know that there are companies out there, like Golo is one, I think they're based out of Delaware. They have, you know, weight loss, dietary supplements and, of course, there are plenty of amount on out on the market. Something that I've heard a lot in the medical community is you're right, you know, there there's a lot of women who go to their physicians, especially the primary care physicians, and they don't really want to talk to them about their menopausal symptoms, or the physicians don't even ask.
Speaker 3:And there's this interesting you know, I've sat in a few talks. There's this interesting emphasis on just not saying anything about body composition during this time in life, because they already have hot flashes and they already have issues with their sex drive and all these other things going on, that we start talking about their weight. That's going to just make their symptoms worse. It'll it'll influence their mood in a negative manner and that shouldn't be the message.
Speaker 3:And that's all because there's plenty of data to show that women who start in the perimenopausal phase with a healthy body composition and they're physically active tend to have a much better experience than women who don't. And then, of course, they have, you know, as they go through that perimenopausal phase, get to the postmenopausal phase, where certain symptoms get even worse than they have a better experience there too, because they went into it, you know, in a more prepared state.
Speaker 3:So I think that you know the body, body positivity movement is going to continue, but it really has a negative impact on women to be obese and go through menopause.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't imagine like a guy going to his physician and, you know, being overweight or obese for men it increases risk of everything else. I mean I can't imagine all the chronic diseases for men as well. I can't imagine. I mean imagine that, tony, let's say you go in and you've gained, you know, 50 pounds of fat mass and your physician says hey, tony, you look great, you ain't got to do anything. Your LDL is sky high, your your prostate is as big as an apple and you're in perfect health.
Speaker 2:I will start with this, and this is completely anecdotal, but men don't need a body positive, body positivity movement. They already think way too highly of themselves, so we don't have no need for that. There's a lot of dudes out there who are really impressed with the way they look and I question a question, but nevertheless, no, I think it's a challenging balance to what you're both mentioning. I mean, obviously you don't want condemnation of anyone because of this issue, but simultaneously, where do we balance it? Where, hey, you know, the alternative life practices have to be considered, because there's long term implications to this, and I don't envy anyone who has to market in that manner because it's not easy. Right, you, you, you, you, we. There's a, we have to make some changes. But at the same time, to your point, just, you got to be very delicate in the language and how you approach this, right, it's, it's. It's pretty challenging.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And of course, they're a great position, right, I would hate to put them all in a box, but I do think there needs to be, you know, more of a message to younger women, especially in. So many women have no clue about perimenopods. They have no idea what that even means. You know, so many, so many women are like what's this mean? I'm having all these hot flashes and I'm only in my 30s and I have these. I have these symptoms, I can't be metaposal, right, right, they're unaware of, of what's happening. And we, the team you know I don't take any participant visits that the team does and we get feedback from these women who are on visits and they say, yeah, my mom never told me anything about menopods, had no clue, it just wasn't talked about amongst my mom and my grandmother. And and now I'm trying to figure out what's going on and what's what's happening so they're thankful for companies who are trying to help them in a non-drug way Right, time and place for drugs, of course, but they like to have those options too.
Speaker 1:So so that's not a normal conversation between a patient and their OB-GYN doctor.
Speaker 3:So it's interesting. I go to the National Menopause Society conference now and there are so many talks on how patients come in and they do not want to talk about their, their symptoms especially.
Speaker 1:Wait. The patient doesn't want to.
Speaker 3:The patient doesn't. So then, and then there are plenty of doctors who are like well, I don't really have that much time, especially in turnists, I don't have that much time to talk to you anyway, so we're just not going to talk about it. So unless they actually go into their OB-GYNs, they don't really have those conversations. A lot of women tend to skip those visits. It's so interesting. And then when they go in any way, they're just like oh, I just want my you know, my pelvic exam, right, my screenings, and I don't really want to talk about these, these other issues, and the doctors really have to make an effort to get them to discuss.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's interesting. What's the what's the mean age for menopause and what would be the range, For instance, if someone thinks it's too early, what's the low end of that Like in terms of earliest age?
Speaker 3:Like earliest stage that I've seen amongst, because we have a. We have a database of women, you know it's, it's probably 30s, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And then we have the for perimenopause. Now menopause at the age is like 50 to 53. I think it's like 52 and a half is what what the the mean is for menopause. But perimenopause can occur as early as in the 30s and usually those symptoms are pop flashes, mood changes. And something that has been so interesting for me to learn about is the amount of women in their 30s into their 40s having like brain fog, right, and not being able to remember things that they they used to be able to remember. We've interacted with some, some people who definitely have stressful careers, but you know, they're younger, they shouldn't be having these, these instances, and they're like what's happening, what's going? What's going on?
Speaker 1:Is there any data on pre-itin and women who are perimenopausal?
Speaker 3:So I that's so interesting. I mean we'd have to ask Abby Smith-Royne, maybe she's got. She's got something, but I can't think of any right now and it seems like a good area.
Speaker 1:That sounds like a doctoral dissertation.
Speaker 3:Right, or Darren? We have to ask Darren. You know well, darren's been doing that bone study and I think he had postmenopausal. Yeah, those are postmenopausal. Yeah. So I don't know if, if I don't know if there's anything on period, but we should.
Speaker 1:I mean that's an area, yeah Cause when you say brain fog, I mean you know it's funny to talk about brain fog and not remembering stuff. I think my wife would say I've had brain fog for like 30 years. She's, like you know, remember anything I said. Well, well, yes you're right and so why do you think?
Speaker 1:it would change. I mean, I've had brain fog on my life, changing topics a little. You had this idea of overactive bladder which I don't think is a male issue, but I'm not sure but in women. What would be the mechanisms behind that Then? How's that treated?
Speaker 3:Yeah, overactive bladder is so interesting Because I'm not metapausal right, I'm getting there I'm not metapausal, so it's been so interesting for me to try to understand these symptoms so that I can run a really good program. I'm the person that's like you should do it to understand it. Right, muscle biopsies I think you should do one to understand it. I guess I could make myself metapausal, but I don't think I'll sign up for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you don't want to do that Learning about all of these symptoms has been so interesting. So, overactive bladder unbelievable People, and especially women, don't talk about it, because there's no champion of overactive bladder For breast cancer. There are champions women out there who are championing that talking. Nobody's talking about overactive bladder. So that's where you go to the bathroom more than eight times a day when you're drinking just a normal amount of water. A lot of women go 12 to 20 times when they have 20?
Speaker 1:Oh geez.
Speaker 3:Wow. You have urgency episodes of three or more times a day, meaning that you can barely make it to the bathroom. What tends to happen is you really have to plan your day around using the restroom. You wake up at least twice. You have noctorias. You wake up at least twice at night. Then leakage episodes. It depends on the type of overactive bladder. So if you have dry overactive bladder you really have very few leakage episodes.
Speaker 3:But some women have wet OAB and they have more than one leakage episode per day. So it's quite a few. A lot of women who have had bad natural bursts are at high risk for that. But wet OAB, pelvic floor weakness that's where pelvic floor exercise comes in key. The other aspects of OAB are predicated a lot on the nerve activation at the bladder. So you've got nerve activation at the bladder and you've got anticholinergic and beta-adrenergic activity going on there. So the drugs that are available for women they usually work through one mechanism or the other and they have a lot of side effects On beta-adrenergic drugs that are now available are a lot better but they're more expensive. There's also Botox surgeries available for women, but it's an area where people don't talk about it. But pelvic floor exercises, especially at early onset, when there's symptoms that are starting to appear, tend to help quite a bit. But it's an area where it's pretty uncapped.
Speaker 2:Okay so go on. What's the estimated age onset? Can it vary significantly, or is it generally starting in the 30s, or what happens?
Speaker 3:Yeah, usually it's in the 40s Okay, general OAB. Unless you've had multiple vaginal births younger than that, then you might have some symptoms earlier than that, but usually it's 40s. Then as you get into your 60s and greater, that's where you get more wet OAB patients, okay, but the number of women who wear diapers okay, that I have heard about that are in their 40s plus that have to wear a diaper in order to go to the gym and exercise or to feel comfortable going out to dinner in case somebody makes them laugh, where they have stress, urinary incontinence. It's just wild to me. I had no clue, not a clue, and people don't talk about it because it's embarrassing, like, oh, I'm 45 and I'm gonna have to wear this pad or this diaper for potential urinary incontinence.
Speaker 1:And so well. I guess part of the treatment would be pelvic floor exercises, right yeah.
Speaker 3:Is there.
Speaker 1:Now I assume I know nothing about this field, but I assume it's skeletal muscle. You're training it the way you would train other skeletal muscle. I mean, I guess that would be. I think that's the levator anion muscles down there. You do sets and reps. Yeah, what's the data on that? Training the pelvic floor.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the data's pretty good. They usually have them do it three times a week, just basic exercises. Kegels, those help too, and that's that and tends to keep the onset of a lot of incontinence away for a long periods of time. People will enroll in pelvic floor PT for a period of time. They get their six to 12 weeks covered by insurance, but then they send them home at home exercises. But it's resistance training, yeah All right, good.
Speaker 3:And then training the bladder too. You know, actually holding, because what women do is they tend to plan their entire day or go to the bathroom. So I've got a meeting here, okay, I've got to go to the bathroom before, even if I don't really have to go, and so that just weakens the bladder, more like getting them to try to hold it, and of course you don't want them to have an incontinence. That's a bit to train the bladder in that manner too.
Speaker 1:Wait, so you can the bladder correct me if I'm wrong is smooth muscle. There's no scale. Little muscle there, right, yeah, so you can train that to not, you know well, let's use the term and A and P micturate. You know maturation, so that can be trained.
Speaker 3:It's training, the habit, it's training the habit. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not Because if there's not an urgency there, you shouldn't take advantage. You know you shouldn't do it, but they plan to do it anyway.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. I mean, I would imagine I'm going to guess, because I'm a big fan of exercise, as we all are that women who train hard have much fewer issues related to this. Is that true?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean women who tend to train hard and have better body composition. Women who are overweight tend to have a lot more, I would say, or more, instances of OAB.
Speaker 1:So it doesn't matter if you're doing aerobic training or resistance training. It's maybe mostly a body pump issue and a BMI issue.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's one area there. It's genetic too. Your mom had it. You tend to pick the right parents, right?
Speaker 1:Always blame the mom and dad. Pick the right parents. Well, you know I'm a big fan of supplements. Tell us a little bit about some of the products that Bonafide is putting out that might be of interest to especially our female listeners.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so on the market currently we have a hot flush product. We're actually working on a new one, and so that hopefully will be launched probably mid-summer. We've got some double blend studies. We're going to get some data back on, but it looks good.
Speaker 2:I would tell you what's in it.
Speaker 3:but I can't right, we have to kill you. We are working on an OAB product. It takes advantage of multiple pathways, which I think is going to be advantageous because the drugs have so many side effects. So you know, we did use animal models to figure that out and then we just finished up two double blind super control trials there. So we are planning on launching that product in July.
Speaker 1:So an OAB product? What, mechanistically, is that you're acting on the central nervous system?
Speaker 3:We're doing receptor binding, so we're basically covering two pathways that work through receptors on the bladder that help basically maintain integrity of the bladder, keep it open for longer. Essentially, you know, not allow these urgency and incontinence.
Speaker 1:Anything for brain fog? You guys are working on.
Speaker 3:Not having a brain fog. No, no, you know, I know the Nutropix were open. They really they've been going after it at the mushrooms. You know the mushroom people. The mushroom people have been going after brain fog too. Have you heard about that, joey?
Speaker 2:The suicide bin that was on there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, there's a whole conference, mushroom conference in Colorado every year. Now you know I haven't gotten into that. Well, bonafide's not getting into that space.
Speaker 1:Those are drugs, though those are not supplements, right?
Speaker 3:Well, they're, they're, yeah, they are, but they're trying to put some stuff into the supplement space.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I have not tried any Different mushrooms different mushrooms, tony, have you done shrooms in your younger day?
Speaker 2:To be honest, unfortunately. No, I've heard so many great things about them and I'd be more than happy to share it, but no, I've never done mushrooms at any given point and people are still raving about them. I don't know, but you know there are gosh. I know some very good people in the neuroscience side that you know. Again, I'm not talking down to the periphery, I'm talking largely up on the essential side. But there seems to be some, you know, really good, really good use for these compounds. So hopefully maybe they're a bit more global than previously anticipated where they positively affect other you know other structures and organs, because I had thought them to be almost exclusively central, but maybe not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I just know that it's becoming, you know, quite the popular, quite the popular thing, and then we'll probably hear more about the way they're raised. You know, I saw it's. Plyside West that people were talking about. Like if you, if you harvest them too soon, you know this is what happens. But if you wait too long, like in different dirt, like any plant, right. So we'll see.
Speaker 1:You know it's really cool about you working in Bonafide. When Jeff Stout and I initially took the position down in Florida or for Rexall Sundown, which is part of that large conglomerate, A lot of people in academia said you'll never make, you'll never get back to academia. In fact, they were highly critical of the fact that we even shows an industry position because they said, once you go industry, no one will take you back in academia. We know it's a big fat lie. You know you could work in industry for 10 years and still go back to academia, because good people are wanted everywhere, whether it's industry or academia.
Speaker 1:So so so for me, I was like hey, you taking that industry job in a way kind of confirmed what Jeff and I, you know, I said a long time ago. It's like you know, good people are needed everywhere. It's not just you know, it's not just academia, it's also industry. Now, when, when you first worked at Bonafide and we're a little short on time, but I want to know, because everyone knows your background is exercise and sports nutrition you get a lot of questions from your employees, not just the employees who work with you, but from the company in general. It's like hey, trisha, what do I do for this? What do I do for that? I need to lose weight, I need to gain weight or whatever, because I'm sure you must get those. Oh yeah of course.
Speaker 3:It's interesting because the majority of the R&D department that works under me has the same background exercise physiology. I stole all of them because they're amazing right their ability to understand anatomy and research. You know, I just I think that it's a special, major right and then you all have gone for it.
Speaker 3:But yes everybody's like what do I do about this? They want to know about what we think of ozempic and weight loss and you know, the ketogenic diet, mediterranean diet and protein. Oh my gosh. So many people are like I think too much protein is mad right. And I'm like, oh boy, trisha, did you see that article you know, in the New York Times about this? They do, they send me stuff all the time. What do you think about this researcher?
Speaker 3:And I'm like I don't think so, you know but, I, do in the nicest way, because they're like they should be so grateful.
Speaker 1:You ever get asked about creatinine. I mean, it's always creatinine and protein. That's what I was getting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So yes, I've definitely talked to people about you know you can have more than the RDA for protein. You'll be okay. I promise You'll be able to digest it all.
Speaker 1:That's so funny. The questions are universal. It doesn't matter where you go. It's like everybody has the same questions.
Speaker 2:And, if you all want, I developed flashcards that have an answer to every one of those questions. It's just easier now I get the question and hold it up.
Speaker 3:I like it.
Speaker 1:That's too funny, trisha. Tell the audience where out of time. Tell the audience where they can find you, if they want to find you on social media. Or if you're giving a talk somewhere, where will you be?
Speaker 3:Yes. So social media, yes, I try to be as active as I can, at least posting about my dogs, right. So Instagram it's trishainvesselorgphd on Instagram. Facebook also, so they can always reach me there. My email, of course you can reach out to Joey or Tony here and get my email and contact me that way. In terms of conferences, I'll be at Supply Side West, so if they'll be there and you want to talk, I'm happy to do so, especially about, you know, going from academia to industry. I think I do almost one talk with a student or even a PhD that's in academia a week talking about it. I just recently had two friends that left, also acting in and into industry, so happy to chat about those Are you ever in South Florida Other than ISIS?
Speaker 1:then will you be in South Florida?
Speaker 3:You know, only for ISIS, then actually, well, not South Florida, I will be. Yeah, I will be in the Lake Worth area, Joey, which do you even know where that's at? It's by Palm Springs.
Speaker 1:Wait, Lake Worth. You said yeah, yeah, yeah, that's about 40 minutes. That's close to you. Yeah, that's close.
Speaker 3:Oh, really it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, yeah, so I'll be there.
Speaker 3:Okay, yes, I'll be there also. So I'll be at ISIS then, but also I will be there. We have a clinical trial going on.
Speaker 1:Hey Lake Worth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, go ahead and speak about ISIS, and can I just quickly just commend you on how great of a job you did as president. You truly did. We had some great years with you there. So I want to thank you for that yeah really, the conferences were outstanding and it was a great job, so thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks so much. You know and to you all, I know as much and have connections in industry because of the ISIS, and so it's if people are interested in getting into the space outside of academia or within academia, they should go to the ISIS and conference and they should be there. Everyone's so friendly and you know great speakers, great events, great cocktail hours and host sessions.
Speaker 1:So it's a great research and attend. Yep, I always say, hey, it's the best place to network because it's easy to talk to everyone and it's a small enough event that you don't feel overwhelmed. It's not like going to supply side where it's, like you know, 50, I don't know tens of thousands.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's so many, you know, I would say a hundred thousand joeys, like wild. It is so wild, it is overwhelming. I walk in there and I'm like Holy cow, like they have a mushroom section. Just a section for mushrooms.
Speaker 2:That's crazy.
Speaker 3:I think I'm coming this year for the mushrooms.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks, trisha, for being in the Sports Science Dudes. We you know we appreciate your time and you know, hopefully, when you're in South Florida, we'll see you soon. If not, we'll see you at the ISIS end. It is June 18th to 20th in Bonita Springs, florida. So thank you, trisha. Thank you so much.