Secret of the Pro's: Featuring James and Kaylee

In this episode we answer the question of what is practice and how do you optimize it to achieve incredible results? Joining us in this episode are the kids Kaylee and James.

Transcript

Ep3 Deliberate Practice

[00:00:00] Mom, dad's making a Disc Golf podcast.

Hi, I'm Kaylee. Thank you for tuning into the Intentional Disc golfer, the only podcast dedicated to helping you become the player you want to be. It is our mission to explore the physical and mental aspects of disco golf performance. So begin your understanding of the game and to help you reach your potential.

Now to introduce your host, Jenny and Brandon. Well thank you once again for tuning in to this episode of the intentional dis golfer. I'm Brandon. I'm Jenny, and we are here with our very special guest today. Hi, I'm their son James. Yes, James is on board for this episode, so if you appreciate us, like what you hear, please don't hesitate to like, subscribe, follow, tell your friends all about [00:01:00] us.

We are available on every major podcast platform. You can also find us on Facebook at zinsky disc golf. That is C Z U P R Y N S K I, disc Golf. So for this episode, we asked the question, what is the secret or the pros, how do they achieve incredible results and how can you achieve incredible results? And also how could you avoid the pitfalls that will stunt your.

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That is the intentional disc golfer@gmail.com. So this episode, we are talking today about deliberate practice as promised. James, when I talk to you and I say deliberate practice, what does that mean for you? Like just going outside and wait, what is, you mean deliberate practice? So like practicing all the time.

Practicing all the time. Going to each blue mark [00:03:00] we have outside and like just throwing 10 disks from each of those, I guess. . So would you say that may be deliberate practices different than just going out there and going through the motions? Yes. Okay. Excellent. I think we want to clarify, the blue marks are the marks around our putting basket outside.

So they're markers at different feet, like 20, 25, 30 feet away from the basket. Yeah. In our, in our practice area at our house here, we have set up the little tassels that they use to mark the different circles. And so we have one circle set up at 20 feet and we have another circle set up at what circle one would actually be.

And that gives us a really good kind of indication of where to practice our putting and things from. So in the last episode, we talked about the book Peak from Anders Erickson, the psychologist from Florida State University. And he characterized deliberate practice as this, the individualized training activities [00:04:00] specifically designed by a coach or a teacher to improve specific aspects of an individual's performance through repetition and successive refinement.

And as it just so happens, Jenny happens to be a master teacher. So who better to talk about deliberate practice than a master teacher? So, Jenny, let's break this down. If I were going to try to figure out an individualized training area, where would I start? What would I do? Well, in order to come up with an individualized training area, you, you kind of have to break down what it is you're studying in the first place.

So let's say disc golf, there's a lot of different parts with disc golf. There's your driving, there's your mid-range, there's your scramble, there's your putting. . So you have to be able to break down whatever it is that you're working on first in order to be able to decide what you want [00:05:00] to focus on.

Once you choose an area to focus on, then you can break that down even further and come up with data points. So for example, if we were to talk putting, we could look at our stance, we could look at the way that we throw the disc, we can look at the way that we hold the disc. When we throw the disc, we can look at the disc itself.

We can look at the basket, we can look at the area of the basket, we can see which side of the basket we tend to miss the most. So all of these things could be quantifiable and we could be able to come up with some data. And for our listeners out there that don't know what that word means, what does quantifiable mean?

It means taking something and make it into a quantity. So a numerical amount. So a number that can be measured. Yeah. So either a things either need to be quanti. Quantitatively or qualitatively collected. And qualities would be like if I said James' sweatshirt is orange, that would be a [00:06:00] quality thing.

What do you think, James? Orange. Yes. Orange is superior to all other colors. are your disc. Well said. So are your discs orange? Yes. In fact they are. Yeah. At least my good ones. , or you heard it here for first folks, orange discs fly better. They do . We talked, you were talking about quantitative data points.

Okay, so how would I go about collecting some of those things? Like just gimme a real brief example of something that you could measure in your game. I don't know. There's, there's a lot. It's hard to come up with just a quick example. I mean, I was just doing putting leagues, so we'll just stick with putting and it could be how many.

Disks. I was able to get in the basket at the different feet, different distance from the basket, trying, trying to maintain everything else the same. And James, how many was that? [00:07:00] 22 in total? Out of 300 . 300 . Because I did my math wrong, but same difference. That's how good you are. 22 outta 300? Huh? 22 outta 300 Uhhuh

Are you sure? Yes. Okay. So it was 50 putts. It was 50 putts. Yeah. So 22 out of 50, we can divide that out and come up with a less than 50% with a percentage? Yeah. Correct. Okay. So that would be an example of like a data point. A data queue in order to, you know, try. Identify and prioritize and individualize training area.

Right. And, and when we talk about coming up with like our, our listeners, not viewers, our listeners out there thinking of, oh, she's going out there and doing some practice and she's got things set up at five foot incre increments from 10 foot to 30. She's doing 10 puts at each one, you know, beautiful day flat.

Perfect. [00:08:00] No, it started raining. Like I had a child sitting on the hill yelling out, yay, you made it to 19. And then I had the dog out there. I had , Brandon was out there. And then the thing I didn't consider is it, we have these French doors and the basket was kind of, I was looking through the French doors and one of the kids kept walking back and forth through the French doors and it was, it's true story.

They're, they're giggling over there now. I know they're giggling. You can hear 'em in the background. They're, they were very distracting. It was not something I had considered. So, , those would be qualitative data points. Okay. Okay. That affect my quantitative data points. Okay. Can feelings or the way that you feel, give you feedback and, and provide you with some individualized areas that you need to concentrate on?

Only if you're able to listen to 'em.[00:09:00] 

No, not what I meant. Like ? No, like I was, I was listening to, what was it? The Open is the one that they just had the one in Austin. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They were talking about all the mental struggles with the professional disc golfers and what they have to deal with, and so it was, it wasn't much of a comment.

However, it is, it is a huge point of it. Well, I think that's, that's interesting cuz you saw like Alina last week at Waco, where she six putted that one thing and then she came back the next day and did like a four putt type of deal. And that, at that level, that has to be all psychological. Could be.

What do you think, James? I don't know. Like, I think since she did like two better than she probably either practiced more or had a better mindset. Like, I'm [00:10:00] gonna do this and not get six. But four is okay. Four is okay. If anything's better than six. Yes. Yeah. But she probably felt really bad about it. Right.

Probably. How about, how about last night when we went disc golfing? What about it? Well, remember watching me, and there was one that I got like 20 on something like that. You, you can't get over 10. There was that number nine, I think of Battle Point where I threw and then I threw again and someone yelled Mom in the middle of my throw.

And then I waited a long time for a bunch of throws. And then I like three or four putted. Like, what do you think was going through my head at that point? All of the above. All of the above. Uhhuh . The above . So do you think that the mental state, what do you think caused me to, to feel that way? You, I think you felt sad because like in the next round that we did, you got really [00:11:00] mad because.

You were doing like bad the first round, so I think that you got ang angry just because you weren't able to make it like on your first throw, on your first putt anyways, but yeah. Do you think that's how the pros feel too? Yes. Ang angry. They get it. Use real words. They get it. Yeah. ky hang it. So like if you, if you don't feel confident with something, like, I'm not very confident with my driving, do you think that that might tell me or give me some feedback that that's something I need to work on?

Yes. All right. So you agree with that? So that'll be an example of an emotional cue is the, the things that make you feel uncomfortable and give you anxiety or even the mental things that they make you angry or snap you outta your conversa or. Concentration. Excuse me, not conversation. That's what we're doing right here.

We're having a [00:12:00] conversation. Yes, yes, yes. Mom agrees on what? That we're having a conversation. Okay. Okay. I think you, I think you touched on something here is like, like the kid yelling mom in the middle of the throw. I think that that would be like a extrinsic cue in a way. That's kind of a reach. Why, why?

Well, it's a, it's an extrinsic, like, oh my God, I hear someone yelling, mom. It's comes from external, so it's an extrinsic cue. However, when a child yelling mom to the mom, when the mom is doing something like that, hits on an emotional level that I just can't quite under, you know? No. Yeah, yeah. Mom, I'm off the mark.

What I'm, what I'm trying to say is like, there's extrinsic cues that you can take from, you know, the people around you and like the general atmosphere of, you know, The card that you're on or who you're playing with and you know, if they're sighing and becoming negative [00:13:00] and things of that nature, you'll like when we let the kids all go play at the playground yesterday, I had more fun doing that than disc golfing.

Don't you dare say that on this podcast. Well, I just did. Yeah. So it was like whole three going back through a nine hole course and the kids were like, I'm over it. We've already finished. Why are we going back there? And he is like, okay, if you want to go play at the playground, go play at the playground.

Whoever wants to finish finish, it's pouring outside. Yeah, I know. Yeah. It's, it's really, that makes my emotional cues go low. Yeah. You have low emotions, , low emotional cues. , I feel you when I, I've, I've had to disc off in that a couple times recently. Oh yeah. At a White River. Yeah, that was, that was wicked.

Yeah. The honeybee and Oh yeah. The honey. No, the honeybee wasn't too bad. . Oh, I, I had an umbrella, nevermind. I, yeah, I had to keep my snow pants on. Rigged up. Yeah. Yeah. It's like [00:14:00] 30 degrees. Do you agree, James? Yes. James agrees with everything. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You know, disc golf is definitely a lesson in emotional regulation, that's for sure.

if you ever get mad, you just picture the person you hate. You just picture their face when you're driving and throw it as hard as you can right at their face until you grip lock and hit somebody you care about. No, no. What if that person you're disc offing with is the person you hate? Then why would you take 'em?

Disc golfing? Because then you have a higher chance of hitting them and saying that it's on accident, even though you did it on purpose. , I was gonna say, is this like a bogert, like you imagine the thing that scares you the most and you're hitting it with your disc, like, yes. Okay. Hmm. Okay. Well moving on, we're still taking apart that statement laid out by Anders Erickson about what is deliberate practice, and it says that it needs [00:15:00] to be instituted by a coach or a teacher.

Jenny, what are your thoughts on that? I think that it doesn't have to come from a coach or a teacher. That is anything outside of say yourself. And that's what I'm hoping that we're gonna work with here with the intentional disc golfer is realizing that you're your own teacher, you're your own coach, and that when you make that decision to get outside help, you're still trying to come up with ways to make yourself better with the intentional Disc golfer.

You know, we're hoping to equip you with some tools to be your own coach and be a good one at that. What do you think makes a good coach? I mean, you say a coach can be anything. It can be yourself. It can be, it can be a, a book, it can be the tv, YouTube. I know disc golf's a big deal on YouTube. Yeah. But when you do YouTube and you're, you're watching something for disc golf, [00:16:00] don't watch conflicting versions of like how to do it.

Like, don't watch putting videos that like clash. Cuz then it really confuses you with your mind of, oh, well this guy said this and this guy said that. And it's really confusing. So like, one thing somebody says, do one thing and then somebody else says, do another thing. Yeah. Okay. What's up James? Like, I think that coaches like, , you don't always have to have a coach in general because before you started coaching me, I threw like this weird way, but then I thought I was doing good until you told me that I wasn't doing very good and that I needed to change my stance and it has really confused me.

So I went from just throwing sidearm to throwing backhand. [00:17:00] And I had noticed the other day when we were playing those changes has added a lot of distance to your throw and more accuracy. Yeah. Even though it might feel uncomfortable at first, but that's what happens when you create bad habits is that muscle memory kicks in and then you start fighting against yourself.

What do you think makes a good coach a human, a. They have to be like a human. Like if you're getting coached how to play disc golf by a dog, the dog would just say fetch. I don't know. There's some dogs out there that are pretty good. Do they have the talking color, like dog from up . Oh, okay. So a, a coach needs to be human.

Yes. Is there anything else? Are you sure that a coach needs to be human? Because like, I can learn a lot from a tree. Like what? How to stand still and get hit by discs. Your own discs. Yeah. [00:18:00] Does, does a coach necessarily have to be a human? Yes. I mean, can you learn things from other sources? The internet or, I don't know.

I don't think a coach has to be a person. Yes. How about a book? Books are written by humans, and so are like internet videos. So there's four not all over. There's like chat gtp. That's a computer. Yes. But that computer was made by humans. I've seen a video of a cat playing disc golf. Yes. But who is recording the cat?

The phone. Duh. Yeah. And who is holding the phone? Humans. Sea drops. Oh my gosh. So it has to be human. The go, the ghost of sea traps. . Humans are apex species. So it has to be human. It has to be human. Or sharks. I mean, sharks are cool. [00:19:00] So our dinosaurs, your, your coach could be a. Not a T-Rex. So the video I was watching, like, T-Rex don't have big enough arms to be able to disc golf.

Like they cut off half their arm, is they? No, they're not. They don't, T-Rex cannot dis golf. They go like, they feel like that one person. I think a rap. I, I really Raptor, I golf really think that a a, a coach could be anything that you can learn from, you know, even, even if like you're out in the woods and like sometimes the course teaches me things, right?

But the course was created by humans. The course, nah, the course was pretty much created by, yeah. I mean, somebody stuck a basket out there, but they're pretty much nature and a tpa. And the tpa, okay. And the thing that shows you where to go and other things. So really humans are moving on. Dissecting that statement by Anders Erickson even further says that improve aspects of their performance through repetition and success Successive.

Refinement. [00:20:00] And this is something that where I like, I like to get into because, you know, through my athletic training and background and also through the sports psychology thing. So you might ask yourself why repetition? Why, why do the same thing over and over and over again and it's boring and I don't wanna do it anymore.

Why do that same thing over and over again? What do you think, James? At least with me for disc golf, I have to do things over and over again cuz you guys tell me too, but why? Good answer. But why, why do you think that we're telling you to do that? Because you want me to. Why? Because you wanna get out of not doing chores.

Because I wanna get out of not doing chores. Yes. Well, what about, what about like your teacher? Like why would you read, why would you do the same math problem or type of math problem over and over and over and over again? So you [00:21:00] know how to do it so you know how to do it. And so what does that, what does that do for you in your brain?

Makes it wrinkly. The brain is wrinkly. So I think what I think what we're trying to get at is when you first learn a new task, like say your coach is out there and says, I want you to do this stance and change this balance point and shift your way, and et cetera, et cetera. at first glance, it feels uncomfortable.

It doesn't feel right. And I think, James, you were saying something like that. And that's because that is still totally ingrained in your short access, short-term memory. That is your useful functioning memory that you use to remember, let's say, sets of numbers that you need to write down real quick.

You know, you use it and then it's gone. You forget it almost as soon as you remember it. Does that make sense? So the purpose of repetition is to take all that short-term [00:22:00] information and those things that you just learned and move them actually into your long-term memory storage. And so they're in there and they're stored.

not something that you'll easily forget. And that's when you start to become more comfortable and it starts to become more fluid, like say with a walkup or like a certain putting stroke or a sidearm throw. That would something that I'm struggling with right now. And after, after the phase of going through moving things into your long-term memory is moving those things into your primal memory, which is the muscle memory, the dinosaur brain, where you can just take whatever your thing your, your brain just kind of takes over and it becomes automatic.

And, and that's for any athlete and any practice schedule. That's ultimately what you're striving for, is to move all of that information, those [00:23:00] habits, those movements, those feelings into your dinosaur brains so you can do them automatically. For example, when I am out in tournaments, If I think too much about it and I get too much inside of my head, I really do bad.

I mean, I do bad anyway, but I do significantly better if I just stop thinking about it and stop caring so much and just play the game. And then at that point my dinosaur brain takes over. I start hitting more lines, I start making more putts, and it becomes more automatic and more comfortable. And ultimately I have more fun because I can concentrate on things.

Other things like, you know, joking around or you know, congratulating the other players and being a positive influence on the card. You look like you wanna say something. What's up? I don't know. I'm just thinking. Let me, let me put this in terms of maybe something you would understand better, like video games, like going through the Harry Potter game.

James shakes his head. Yes. . So the Harry [00:24:00] Potter game, you start with very basic steps, right? Yeah. Of learning how to walk, how to look around, things like that. Yes. Before you're able to unlock, say, flying with a broom, I have unlocked that. Yes, you have. However, it's teaching you through repetition at smaller increments, smaller steps to make you a successful video gamer.

So kinda like, at least going off your example with the Hogwarts game I always struggle at least also in Pokemon with like healing and protecting myself. And so I, it has really taught me how to like learn how to like, I guess heal myself and protect myself better, I guess. Yeah. Those defensive strategies.

Yeah. Yeah. And so as you play the game, you get better at it. And as you progress in the game, you get better and better [00:25:00] rewards, right? Yeah. Like better gear and better armor and stuff. Better spells. Yeah. Or it's like when I had you do the broom trials for me, I didn't learn how to do that. So now I have another one that I'm not gonna be able to do until I have you do it for me, because I don't have those skills.

And that's why it's important that you do your own practice. You learn the material yourself. , so, so that you can fly your own broom. We've gone from disc golf to witchcraft, which is not too far of a reach, actually. Huh? . Because the trees always know how to walk around . That's right, that's right. Set up the trail cam the trees.

Walk around. That's right. Speaking of trail cams, off topic, we had a cougar just recently in our, in our backyard. I guess there's also bobcats now. Yeah, there's bobcats. Yeah. Yeah. And there's foxes. Foxes, yeah. But the cougar's kind of surprising, like, I mean, kind of, but not really. They live around here, but we've only had like, this is our [00:26:00] only, our second one ever.

That was, that was a big kid though. Maybe for you guys. I've lived here my whole life. I've seen lots of cougars, like Yeah, they're around. If you hear something, it sounds like a gunshot in the middle of the night. That's a cougar. Really? I've only been here for 11 years. I know. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Like you guys are like, yeah. Anyways, Anyways. Spent too much time talking about video games. They were calling James. So now we'd like to welcome Kayleigh. Kayleigh, say hi. Hello. Yep. Kayleigh is now joining us. Yep. Kiddo. Hot swap. Okay, so we are just talking about the purpose of repetition, moving the knowledge from the short term functional memory to the long term to the primal memory.

And now let's talk about that re successive refinement portion. And this is kind of where the coach comes in. One of the great aspects of having a coach is there's somebody that can [00:27:00] observe you and troubleshoot for you. Now Kaylee is with us taking the spot of James. Hi. Does your coach do that for you?

When you do track or Kosh Con, they give you little pointers and tips. Yes, a lot. Especially like when I was doing the mile today. We had to run the mile. And as I was running past the coaches, they're giving me pointers of, keep your arms straight and lift your knees. Successive refinement, or a simpler way to put this is troubleshooting.

And so this kind of runs into using those cues and those different analytics that Jenny was talking about earlier is that can give you some real good feedback and some real good information on how to troubleshoot certain areas of your game. You're shaking your head over there. Can you, can, what are you thinking?

Well, the, the one that was coming to mind, excuse me. The one that, that sticks out to me when I was [00:28:00] reading the book I read the book You read? Yeah. I was reading the book. I read. I'd have to go grab my Kindle. Anyways, the data book that I read about disc golf, he talks about. , you know, how does your how often are you successful on your next throw if you spent time searching for a lost disc, whether it's yours or someone else's.

And that's something that I've always thought of, especially over at Rain Shadow on that first one where I tend to go way down the hill off the left or the right, rarely, ever in the middle. And it kind of sets the tone for the whole rest of the game for me. That makes sense cuz like you're taking a pause to find it.

Yeah. Hole number one on Rainen shadow that is kind of a doozy to put on a whole number one. And I could see where that would set the tone for the entire game. . It is a, it has for many of us. It is, it has often set the tone for my game. I'll [00:29:00] tell you, especially on tournaments cuz everyone's there watching you on that first hole and everyone's making comments about, yeah.

Speaking of, speaking of tournaments, ripping in the roadies is coming up. Yep. Over at Rain Shadow, the Evergreen Women's Series. Shout out to the Evergreen Women's Series. If you're a woman dis golfer get involved. So one ailment that affects athletes of all sorts, types different sports and things is the plateau state.

You start doing something and you see these, you know, large gains. You know, some people call it beginner's luck. And then you get into it and you just kind of get stuck in this middle area somewhere where you're really not learning, you're really not progressing. It just seems like you're going through the motions.

And I learned this when I was going through personal training. School is. You have to know when to progress. And that's a really important thing to really have a firm understanding on. And probably, if not the most [00:30:00] important, is knowing when to move on. And those data points and those different cues the information that you take in as long as well as the coach and the troubleshooting can help you with that and learn when to progress.

Jenny, Kaylee, have you ever done the thing where it's you just, you're doing it over and over and over, you feel like you're not learning anything you feel like, you know, and you just, the goal is to just get real comfortable with it first before you move to the next thing. Often. Often, I was gonna say like at school when you feel like you're just doing busy work and they're having you fill out a, a piece of paper.

Like monotony. Yeah. Like boring monotony. Yeah. I actually heard a really good quote today on that disc golf video I watched. Yeah. By, I think it's Filo Filo. Filo. Yeah. Filo. I always think of like the dough. Like filo do? No, I think it's filo like span coda. I can't say his last name, but he was saying, you know, when you hit to when you hit a plateau, you've you've stopped [00:31:00] believing in yourself.

And that's really what he thinks is that you just need to believe in yourself when you hit those. That's a really interest, interesting thing of interesting way of, of thinking about it. He was also talking about how you need to learn to love the game even when you're doing a horrible job. Well, it, it was like a, what we were listening to the FPO at down at Austin and the two hot geese ladies, they were like a bad day of disc golfing is better than any day in the office.

That's pretty much what anyone says about fishing. I mean, That's what they say about whatever it is that they like seal the old fishing reference. So what I learned through personal training about Plateau State is people often want to like master something before they move on. And there's a principle in the deliberate practice and moving on and progression that you have to move past something to master it.

So in order to feel completely confident with a skill or something, you have to move on to an even more difficult skill. [00:32:00] And then when you come back to it, you're even more proficient and more comfortable with performing whatever that is. And this is a page out of Jeff Bezos real book called The 80% Rule.

Jeff Bezos is famously quoted for saying that you need to be able to make good decisions with 80% of the inform. Well, it's the same with we're talking about putting putting's an easy thing to pick on because it's the thing that you do the most of. It's the thing that everybody can get better at, and it really is one of the simplest parts of the game as well as the most difficult.

So like, if I'm practicing my putts from 10 feet away, I should be at a hundred percent. But if I'm, if I want to get comfortable practice doing my putts from 10 feet away, I need to move back to 15 feet and then go back to 10. And when I go back to the 10, if I can hit that 80% part mark, it's time to move on.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you, you have to be able to get 80% there, 80% proficiency in order to move [00:33:00] on to the next point. And then that's how you're gonna break that mold is you move on to the next point. So move back to like 20 feet and then when you go back to 10 foot, putting that 10 foot putting is gonna be a hundred percent.

You know, if you want to get great at 20 foot putts, you sink, 80% of them move back to 25 foot putts. And then when you go back to 20 foot putts, you're gonna be sinking that 80%. So it's keep that progression going and don't wait to be absolutely perfect at it before you move on to the next thing. Well that works for some things.

Maybe not all things. I was like, I was thinking of like basketball. If, if you were to ask me to go do three point shots, not being able to make a layup with any sort of accuracy, like I wouldn't be able to. Well that seems, that's like two different disciplines though. A three point shot's way different than doing a layup.

Well, it's a different skillset. , that was part of what I heard today was, you know, you [00:34:00] don't have someone go start doing three points until they're proficient at a layup, and then the 10 foot and the 10 and 15, and then you move back to the free throw line and do the, that's, that's what I was saying too, is that you, you start small and snowball yourself up into something bigger and bigger and bigger, but then when you come back to the smaller point, that becomes easier.

So like, if you think like you can make 1,003 pointers, like you should be able to make a layup y I guess it depends on how far you progress, because then what comes to mind for me is, you know, Einstein couldn't tie his shoes. Okay. Like, and, and as a teacher, thinking of students in math class, like there are a lot of middle schoolers, especially in America that can't do.

Basic math, and they're in the middle school classes. And so it's, it's a, it's a debate on the appropriate way to, to teach them either keep waiting until they're able to master [00:35:00] and master is that 80% or greater, or let them continue to be below that 80% and hope that as they learn the, the higher levels of math, that some of this other stuff will start to catch on.

So there's, there's two different ways to look at it. Well, yeah, it's kinda like in math, if you want to learn division, you have to know multiplication and subtraction before you can start division. And if you don't know multiplication then you can't really. a lot of math. So what you're saying is you need to learn your basic arithmetic tick before you move into algebra and then Yeah, into graphing and then into calculus.

So there's a progression in progression of things. So Kaylee, what do you think that progression would be for disc golf? You should start with a shorter putt. Get, [00:36:00] get okay with that. And then go back to go back like five or 10 feet and then get okay with that. And then you'll be better with the putt you started at.

So you think putting is a, a good place to start that progression? Yeah, because if you can putt then you can start working on your long distance throws. Cuz I think putting is going to be one of the best things. Cause I know that I've taken a bunch of throws that I could have gotten pars on and by missing my putt two or three times, it's now up by like, it's now a plus three when it could have been a par.

Yeah. And so if we were to go back with the way that we started disc golfing with you guys, because I'm pretty sure like we had a disc golf basket. We didn't really practice with it. We just went out and started putting, went outside for half an hour. [00:37:00] For like half a year. Yeah. We just went outside and, and started playing at the actual course.

Do you think it would've been better had we started just with putting. I think that new players should go to a course once or twice to get used to, to get an idea of the game. And if you want to get more indulged in the game, then I think you should start practicing your putting. Okay. The game is one and lost within circle one Exactly.

Is what you're trying to say. Yes. So within 10 meters of the basket. Yep. You know, another, another thing about knowing when to progress and how to progress is making sure that you have clear and defined goals. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners out there have heard of the acronym, the SMART goals.

Jenny, what are the, what's the smart stand for, or do you remember, [00:38:00] Kaylee, what smart goals are? Specific, measurable, attainable realistic. . There's a couple different ones for R so I was debating which ones to go for. I think realistic is a good one. Yeah. Realistic and time bound. Yep. But there's usually some different ones for R.

Okay. Like relatable. Is one? Realistic? Responsible? No. Like literally I saw one at my school and it said responsible on there. Cause like if your goal is motor biking, that's not really, if it's not responsible, if you're like six. Yeah. Gotcha. Well, and we're, and, and so like getting into the smart goals I actually subscribe more to like the smarter goal model and we'll do a he whole episode doing a deep vibe dive on how to set smart goals and smarter goals and all that type of thing.

Can I make a, i I need to make a joke though that you like smarter goals. Except you're always telling me to keep it simple. Stupid . Smarter . [00:39:00] Well, the difference, so, so you're going for the, the longer goals. the, well, the longer goal, cuz there's, there's, what are the e and R? The e n R? Well, so what I, what I measure it as a specific measurable accountable, realistic, and time-bound.

And then E would be evaluate, and R would be reward. It could also be a restart if you. I think that's a good point. I like, I like restart too. If you, if it's like you're building a robot and after evaluating it's not working, you can always restart. We'll do a whole episode on, on smart goals, smarter goals.

Another principle out of deliberate practice, just to list 'em off real quick so we can get some more meat and potatoes in here. Another principle of this is that it requires full engagement and high concentration, so it has to occupy your mind space. And I think [00:40:00] that's, that's kind of true in education too, is that, you know, you as a teacher kind of are more in the cognitive realm.

No, I don't agree with that. You don't agree with it. Why don't you agree with it? I don't agree with that because that's ultimately not how people learn. We don't learn just by using our brains. We have to actively be involved, and we are more of a kinesthetic type of society than people are willing to really indulge or understand.

And seeing that more and more on the administrator side of education, I can go into a classroom and see, you know, half the class is not engaged in the learning, so they're doing other things to occupy their time, like playing on their phones or throwing pencils or picking on someone because that's at least getting them fully engaged and involved instead of focusing on [00:41:00] the notes, supposedly.

Well, well, and and, yeah. Oh, go ahead, Kayleigh. From what I've seen since I go to school, Like . That sounds weird. But from what I've seen, like sitting in the classroom it's that like most kids want to be constantly stimulated with their hands and their mind cuz it gets them to work on the same thing.

And if they're on, if they don't have something to keep them going, keep them doing something, they'll do things like, I don't know, draw on their hands, pants, I don't know. Well I think you were talking or, you know, talking at some point about making sure you're offering that challenge to keep them engaged.

To keep them hooked in, in the zone of proximal development. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted comment on Kaylee. You've done really well in the home ec class or the pre-engineering class. And those were very [00:42:00] hands-on, active, engaged things that you can actually apply in the real world. Right. And they both like my favorite learning subject math.

It's just, I get to put that into real practice and not, real practice isn't a word problem. Like I'm actually out there solving that. Yeah. Math, math word problems are the only place. You don't wonder why someone has 30 pumpkins, . And it's Or 52 cabbages. Or 52 cabbages. Like, it totally makes sense why Yolanda has 34 cabbages with seven kittens.

Yep. Just makes, it's only place it makes sense. It's the only place that cats can actually eat pineapple. Yep. So talking about the zone proximal development, so you have, if you imagine a, a straight line. , there will be a buffer zone above it and below it, and that's considered the zone proximal development.

So as a person learns, hopefully it is at like an upward trend. So let's, [00:43:00] let's go extreme and say a 45 degree angle upward trend. So maybe five clicks above and five clicks below. That would be the, the area where a person could struggle and go down to the easier things and also start challenging up to the higher things without getting overly frustrated or losing interest.

And so that's your zone of proximal development is trying to find that zone where you're engaged and not frustrated, but it's easy enough that you don't feel like giving up. Okay, so what, what you're kind of alluding to is talking about how to start using deliberate practice. It could be. It's just in education.

That's, that's the learning zone that you're trying to find. If you're a teacher or a coach working with your client, working with students is trying to find what, like today, Kaylee, you did the [00:44:00] mile run, right? Yes. So trying to figure out, okay, where are my track, my CrossCountry, sorry, where are my CrossCountry athletes at?

So that they can split you guys into groups and decide, okay, who can run a mile in less than 10 minutes? Who's my 10 to 15? Who's my 15 to whatever. Well, yeah. Cuz normally what they do is they split us into groups. When we go on our runs one group, they're gonna take us on a slower, easier route. And the other group, they're gonna challenge us more.

Right? And so that's coming up with those tests, coming up with that data to come up with better, better homogenous groups. For learning. Okay. So coming up, coming up with those training areas and things. And, and that's actually going on to the next point is you need to create a system of immediate and accurate feedback.

And that's really important for evaluating the deliberate practice, knowing where to progress, knowing how to progress, when to [00:45:00] progress. And also it's also motivating in a way because you can track your progress and seeing how much you've grown. It, it, it's kinda like in weightlifting, like if you start off on your bench presses like 150 pounds and you get up to 200 pounds, that's really reinforcing and really encouraging.

Or likewise on, say like a weight loss program, you get onto that scale and you Oh, well, or, or you, everybody's seen the before and after pictures in the mirror, right? And so, like you were saying, Jenny, with the zone proximal development, you have to get outside of your comfort zone. That's another principles you have to be challenged in order to grow.

Well, the zone of proximal development should still be in the comfort zone. However, it's, it's, it's encroaching on not being in the comfort zone. So it's just a little bit above the comfort zone. Not to hit the point of frustration. [00:46:00] Yeah. It's not like it's, it's abrasive. It's just a little bit higher. The, you know, just stretch your confidence just a little bit.

It's like towing the line, stepping over it for a minute and then coming back. Now, a lot of data about learning and learning processes say that humans learn best through chunking, which is grouping, you know, putting groups of three to four, like. Type items together and doing all of those things all at once.

Well, it's, that's, that's why phone numbers, credit cards, things like that are broken down into three or four sets. The groups of numbers, because that's what we can remember is multiple groups of three or four. Yeah. And that, that's just a new pneumonic tool that people have found out that people learn better through groups and learning groups of things rather than, you know, one by one by one by one.

And [00:47:00] it works well for athletics because athletics, your body is an entire connected system. And you can't talk about your driving without talking about the walkup. You can't talk about the walkup without talking about loading your hips. You can't talk about loading your hips without load, without talking about balance.

So it's all connected. I totally thought you meant driving as in like in a car. And I was like, your walk up, like your walk up to the car. Hey, that's, oh wait, , that's the only form of driving. I do well, like unlock the car and I'm so confused. , , the final principle of deliberate practice is identifying and eliminating mistakes.

And we talked about that briefly earlier, using a coach or even a video camera or something to identify and troubleshoot things essentially. And that's what practice is for. Practice is for identifying your mistakes and, and you should not feel like you're doing everything wrong and you're a failure in practice.

Well, that [00:48:00] would also go at the mindset of identifying your strengths and maybe even taking away the word weakness and instead have, that's an opportunity for improvement. A lot of it does have to do with mindsets. So to find those, those. Areas of strengths that you don't have to work on so hard, and then the places where you, you need to practice and improve?

Well, like I, I had mentioned hip loading earlier, and that's something that I need to work on, you know, a as far as my walkup goes, and I've noticed, like I can always stand to improve my hip movement, my hip loading to improve my distance. I'm not very good at it, but I'm getting better, and I was able to do it starting out.

But I've continuously grown and grown and grown, gotten better through identifying it and working on it, and slowing things down, breaking it up into chunks and walking myself through that process. And what data told you that you need to work on your hip, [00:49:00] whatever? Well, it, it really wa it wasn't so much.

Data, like as far as quantitative data is more like qualitative, I think, if I'm using the term properly. And that's what I'm asking, is what caused you to decide that this is your area for practice, this is your area for focus. Well, I, I'm, you know, I'm very upper body heavy. You know, I'm, I work construction, I have mega upper body strength.

My lower body strength is waning, but I've never really had very good hip flexibility and core flexibility. Especially like in my older years where I put on some weight. It's become a real challenge. I know this from playing ball golf for 20, 25 years is that in order to get the distance on your driving and on your swing, you have to really play from the waist down.

And it seems really counterintuitive, but the game is really played from the waist down and. . That was something that I was working on when I got [00:50:00] out ball golf and it was really working for me. And then I watched disc golfers and I'm thinking like, I'm a big strong guy. Why can't I, why can't I throw 400 feet?

What's going on here? This is really kind of stupid. What's, what's going on with my form? What am I doing wrong? These guys, I've always wondered how these people, they go up there and they throw and they look like they're hardly putting in any effort at all. And it just seems so seamless. And the answer is, is that it really starts from the waist down.

So I started incorporating loading my hips the other way in order to facilitate more power through my swing. And when I watch the long drive videos and things, when they slow things down, you can always notice that these guys, they rotate around. Pelvic bone and then they whip around with their shoulders.

I'm, I'm gonna stop you there. Yeah. You're, you're going off on a tangent. What made you [00:51:00] decide about you that you're gonna focus on that I wanted to throw further? I wanted to throw further with less effort. Okay. And through my experience with ball golf, I knew that it had to do with loading the hips because disc golf and ball golf are a lot of the same mechanical principles as far as your body goes.

Okay. And with the loading hips, loading of the hips, it's kind of like going a shot put, you need to use your lower body strength more than you need to use your upper body strength. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. The game is played from the waist down. That's, that's my new, my new motto as of lately is play the game from the waist down.

Not from the neck up. not, no. Well, it, unless it's a math game. All, all this, all this stuff in the middle pretty much doesn't matter. Like , I just kidding. Side of the neck up or the waist [00:52:00] down. Unless you're doing pushups, we don't talk about pushups. So how do I start using deliberate practice? If I'm out there and I, and I'm a, a disc golfer, how would I start using the principles of deliberate practice in order to improve my game?

Well, I think the first thing you need to do is you need to go out and play and come up with something that you're interested in improving. That's why I asked you about your hips is what caused you that that's where you're gonna focus. These hips don't lie. Whatever Shakira, Shakira. Don't even Kaylee, no

In researching this, I found some information about how to start using deliberate practice and I thought it was pretty valuable, so I'll share it with you. Yay. The first thing they say is understand your why and, and understand it, and know it on a deep and almost spiritual level. Not getting into like any kind of religion thing.

[00:53:00] I wouldn't even go there. I wouldn't even touch that. No, thank you. What your wife, there are so many people that go through sports and, and life in general and never touch. Why? Because it's so difficult. So even just going there right now, I, I wouldn't, I don't know. Your why can change your why or you can just feel awful that you never have a good enough.

Why? I mean, my reason why first cross country is cuz I wanna build up my stamina. That's not really a good reason why. or because it's fun and you enjoy it. It doesn't have to, it doesn't ha not that much. It doesn't have to be a big reason. It doesn't have to be like, oh, I'm gonna solve, you're just, you're saying look at it on a spiritual level, like you need to Buddha this shit.

No, no. It's like, it's like, it's like deep. It's, it's like, and so, and that why can change, but we're saying that we have very superficial whys as to why we do the stuff that we do. Well, [00:54:00] and so you telling us on a spiritual level, like I, well, no, I'm saying like, I, I play disc golf because I enjoy it. , and it doesn't need to be like some SuperDuper Buddha thing, but it's like, that's what I feel in my heart, SuperDuper Buddha , is that even in that SuperDuper Buddha , you know?

And, and that's why I play, is because I enjoy it. And that's why I practice and I work hard at it, is because I enjoy the process. I enjoy every part of it. That may seem superficial, but I feel superficial. Excuse me. I feel that in my heart and in my soul, and that's what I really appreciate about the game.

So it doesn't need to be like some big life changing why, but that's where the why is where your motivation comes from. Yes. With the superficial thing. I know this might be a little lump, but we had a visitor in class today and this person was talking about how you slow down. Sorry, this person [00:55:00] was talking about how for na, for native spiritual dances, you have to be physically ready, mentally ready and spiritually ready.

And if you're not all three of those, you can't participate. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That's one of the things with song and dance is if, if kids don't feel like Yeah. Or adults. Yeah. All's the kids, it's at the school. That's exactly right. If you're not, it's like, so the days for me with disc golf where I already know I'm angry, it's like I don't wanna go out there and throw, cuz I'm already angry and I know it's just gonna make it worse.

Yeah. Golf, just disc golf. And, and golf in general. You have to be in the right mindset because the, the game will tell you how you're feeling that day. , it, it's like a perfect mirror. It's kind of stupid, but it's good, I guess. So in order to start using til practice we talked [00:56:00] about this, take yourself inventory and define your goals.

We talked about that earlier. Next is commit to a time and routine and a time and routine is really important because it's on purpose, it's deliberate right in that time. And, you know, a lot of people get to this point where they, they just don't feel complete until they are able to spend that hour or do whatever that is.

And it's important also to realize that that doesn't necessarily that you have to be physically. Visualization and mental practice is also very important. Like for us lately, we've been watching a lot of the F P O M P O tournaments and, you know, rehearsing things and talking about different shots and kind of going through the tactics in our head and, and even together.

I do a lot of disc golf when I'm laying in bed, the shower Thoughts though, those are bad. I do some good thinking in the shower, win arguments with myself. , [00:57:00] have you ever solved rope hunger? Tell no one. So solve with hunger. Spend a lot of time, you know, as you're co decompressing for the day. Especially if we've gone disc golfing and it's like, well, what?

This doesn't make sense. Like in theory, this should work. And so trying to work through and just a lot of that stuff when you're trying to fall asleep, it's like not even something I could journal and get outta my head. It's like, it's just I'm working through it. And then, I try the theory the next time we go out and it doesn't work at all.

Well, there's nothing like going through your walkup at one o'clock in the morning and all of a sudden the covers are all missing.

I think we broke you. It's happened. Serious. Serious. It's like, is the window open? No. Jenny's practicing disc golf. . Wait, she's just tossing and turning What? I do a lot of that. She she does . [00:58:00] Yeah, it, yeah. And then it becomes this tug of war and then she, she doesn't have any covers and then she takes the covers back cuz she doesn't have any, and then I don't have any, so I take 'em back and it's, it's why you find it?

Other blankets? She ends up with the sheet and I get the comforter. We've tried the other and she steals the other blanket. Then I pro I do the same thing. So I think you should go to the couch. It's, it's mutual. It's a mutual blanket. Thievery. Alright. And so committing to committing to a set time routine where you do that and you go through practice.

Apparently Jenny's is in the middle of the bedroom and , she's still laughing. Actually I saw this really good thing in, in the in Fila's video about lining up your, what you're gonna throw and then actually slow motion practicing putting your arm over it. And it'd be really good just like, he's like, you gotta be ninja ready.

And it's like doing the slow juujitsu so that I could I to see some of these videos, like it's a metaphysical disc, [00:59:00] golf it, put some crystals and things on the baskets and. Disco. Yeah. , juujitsu, juujitsu Ninja Disk golf. All right. You should find some like rocks and make your disc thing at, of your disc marker.

Be like epoxy with your special rocks in case with my crystals with your Well, to keep me calm during, I'm gonna use one of my little crystal. Well, I mean, I mean, like, what you could do is you could get some crystals that are special or not even special, just like, like the special ones. And you can put 'em in epoxy and make a little puck out of it, and you could use that as your marker.

Yeah, you can make your own markers. They have to be a certain size and stuff. P DGA has got a whole thing for that. Setting up a system for measurable feedback that's collecting that data and all those different things. And then moving on. Now this is [01:00:00] really important, is the zone state. And the dream for any athlete is to be able to move into the zone state at will.

And it is a real thing. Psychologists and things athletes and the way they have researched it and defined it. And also how to get there and move in and out of it. So in the zone is actually a real thing. And in order to be in the zone, you have to go beyond your comfort zone. And I like to point out with your comfort zone is there's a difference between pain and discomfort.

Discomfort might not feel very good. But pain makes you have to stop. And that that's, people get a little uncomfortable. They feel a little bit sore, they're pushing it a little bit, and then they quit. That's when you should keep going. . If you're [01:01:00] pain, that means that you're almost to the point of injury and you should stop.

But if you're just a little sore, you gotta be able to push yourself through that. If it hurts a little bit, you gotta be able to push yourself through that. Cuz chances are you're just working out something or, or stretching something that hasn't been stretched in a wild or you happen to put using a muscle you've didn't even know you have.

Poor, poor technique . Yeah. It's just a one off. Oops. Yep. Hot game was fun. Yeah. Als also to be in the zone state it's realtime in instant feedback. If you notice a pattern here, deliberate practice has a lot to do with feedback and it also involves something that you were talking about earlier, having optimal stress levels.

Not being at the point of frustration and anger, but getting to the point where you're challenged and engaged. Rather than hitting rock bottom and sitting around that boredom level and tuning out. Well, and I wanna go back to what'd you just say before that? Real time feedback. Yeah. So with the feedback, [01:02:00] if you're in that zone state, sometimes you aren't in a place where you can really collect data.

So you need to come up with some way to be able to collect data. So say for the putter league that I'm in, you have a livestream video and you're just in the zone doing your putting, and then after you end your video, you go back and watch it and then count and tally what puts you actually made. Or like when I play disc golf, that's why I use the counter and I know Corey uses the, like the bus clicker.

Yeah. And you just, you get in, in that habit so that you can focus on other things and maintain that level of, of data collection. Yeah. You know, ev everybody nowadays has a phone. And these phones have cameras, and these cameras record videos. And unless you work for the government, you're not allowed to have one.

Well, and and you laugh and most everybody has 10 bucks in their pocket. That, that thing that you got for your phone, what was that like six, seven bucks? It holds the [01:03:00] phone for you so you can take video of yourself. The mount for the, the mount. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but they also have the little bitty tri, I mean, let's just say this, for less than $20, you can get a little tripod thing for your phone and you can record yourself.

And you being your best teacher and having all those tools, applying these principles to those videos, you can become your, you can really become your own best coach, honestly. Comparing those as a form of feedback, comparing those to the videos and the feedback that you're getting from, like, say YouTube, the books watching the pers, you know, and, and things of that nature.

And so what is zone state? Well, zone state is what we were talking about earlier where you have the quick access memory, then you go into the long-term memory, long-term storage, and then you move it into the primal or the muscle memory where you just react without thinking about it. And that's what that zone state is, is where [01:04:00] you completely live in that primal brain, that primal head space.

You're not really thinking about what you're doing or anything else. It's just happening and unfolding in front of you. Once you realize that you're in his own state, that's you're no longer in his own. You automatically pop out of it. And, and that's how you can tell if you are in a zone state or not, is whether or not that happens.

And last but not least very important, make sure you give yourself adequate rest and recovery time. It allows your muscles to heal physically, your tendons and things to rebuild themselves, but it also allows your brain to create those synapses and things and those connections. Have you ever, have you ever done the thing where you like do something for a while and you just can't get it?

You just can't get it, and then you put it down for like a day and you come back to it and it's like, oh, magic. It worked. Yes. A lot. Well, do you, can you think of something did [01:05:00] you, I thought you had something like this at school with using the cricket. Oh, yes. What happened was we kept printing.

Our thing, and it kept printing out with a lot of access. Like a 3D printer? No so the, it's vinyl cutter. Oh, the cricket it, okay. Yeah, the cutter. So we kept printing it and it kept printing out with way too much access. So then we realized so we tried to fix it, but it wouldn't work. So we let it, let it sit for a day, and then the next day we figured out exactly what was wrong.

Okay. So you came, you came back to it and knew it was like a light bulb, but it's like, oh, duh. It put a fresh pair of eyes on it and makes sense. Okay. Yeah, that's, that's a pretty good example. So, moving on here a couple things that are in the hopper for the intentional Disc golfer. Episodes that are upcoming.

We're gonna be [01:06:00] talking about smarter goals. Also, we're gonna be talking about how to defeat the coach talent paradox, where the biases are created between people that experience early success as opposed to people that struggle in the very beginning and how to make up for that and kind of cheat the system.

Talking about data points. And we're pretty much going over like the mental, kind of psychological and practice regiment part of disc golf right now. We will be eventually getting into talking about things like form different shot shapes, understanding flight flight numbers on a deep level. So all of those things are gonna be coming up in the future anyway as far as deliberate practice goes Go out practice deliberately deliberately, deliberately

It's like the statute, the statute of statue, of deliberately delib. I don't know. Deliberate practice. Putting a f is basically putting a framework in place so that you know when to [01:07:00] progress. You know when to move on, and you can keep the ball rolling forward. Otherwise, you're just gonna be going through the motions and eventually get stuck, become bored, and not want to get, not get, want to progress or not wanna move on and disc golf anymore, which we definitely don't want.

We want to grow the sport, have as many people playing as possible, develop courses and turn this into the sport that we all love and know it is so. With that being said, this is the intentional dis golfer. We had special guest James and Kaylee on today, as well as my lovely wife, Jenny. She's shaking her head yes,

This is the intentional dis golfer signing off.