The Intentional Disc Golfer
Unleash your disc golf potential with The Intentional Disc Golfer podcast! Join us as we dive deep into the physical and mental aspects of this incredible sport, helping you become the player you've always dreamed of being. We're here to elevate your game, share expert insights, and inspire intentional growth on and off the course. Support our mission by becoming a part of our avid listener community. Together, let's take your disc golf journey to new heights! Email us at theintentionaldiscgolfer@gmail.com to support or be featured on our show. Let's tee off towards greatness!
The Intentional Disc Golfer
Mastering Disc Golf Flight: The Science Behind the Numbers
Curious about the mysterious numbers on your discs? This episode is for you! We're diving deep into the science behind disc golf flight numbers and dynamics. Join us as we unpack key terms, concepts, and the physics of disc flight—covering everything from torque and aerodynamics to gyroscopic forces and beyond. Whether you're just starting out or you're a seasoned pro, understanding these elements will help you optimize your disc golf bag and elevate your game.
We'll explore the differences between understable and overstable discs, show you how to analyze flight characteristics, and explain how factors like disc design and your technique influence disc performance. Plus, we’ll teach you our "speedometer method" to visually map your discs' flight patterns, giving you a deeper understanding of how your discs truly behave.
This episode is packed with insights to help you play smarter, not harder. And for some fun, we’ll finish with a lighthearted blooper reel—offering a behind-the-scenes look at our podcasting process.
Ready to level up your game? Tune in and join us on our mission to grow the sport. Go out there and throw!
Disc Golf Changes Lives <3
To support this podcast or arrange for an interview please contact us at theintentionaldiscgolfer@gmail.com
Welcome to the Intentional Disc Golfer Podcast, the show dedicated to helping you elevate your disc golf game with purpose and strategy. Whether you're stepping up to the tee for the first time or you're a seasoned pro chasing that perfect round, this podcast is your guide to playing smarter, training better and building confidence on the course. We are, brandon and Jenny Saprinsky, passionate disc golfers, here to explore everything from technique, course management, mental focus and gear selection. Grab your favorite disc, settle in and let's take your game to the next level. Intentionally.
:Thank you for coming back to the intentional disc golfer podcast. This is the reboot you have been waiting for season 2.1 and, uh, I am one of your hosts. My name is brandon I'm jenny and she's jenny.
:First of all, we would like to thank the fans, all of our supporters, for staying with us throughout the years. Life happens and we're happy to be back and if you love us, appreciate us, love listening to us, please don't hesitate to hit the like, subscribe, follow button. Uh, you can find us on our social medias on facebook and instagram, at Czuprynski disc golf that is c-z-u-p-r-y-n-s-k-i disc golf, and also on x and youtube at the idg You can also send us an email at theintentionaldiscgolfer@gmail. com, theintentionaldiscgolfer@gmail. com. And if you would like to support the cause we also have a Patreon, patreon. com/theintentionaldiscgolfer. And stay tuned. At the end of the end of this episode, after the credits, we're going to be adding in a little bit of a blooper reel. So if there's any little bloopers or mess ups or anything, get a good laugh. We'll put those at the end of the episode after the outro music. So stay tuned for that.
:Every time you say Patreon, I think of Harry Potter.
:Why.
Speaker 1:The.
:Patronus, oh the Patronus. You can follow us on our Patronus page and there'll be a giant glowing deer. Come out of the woods and save your hinder. I'm gonna have a squirrel. You know, a giant glowing squirrel. Yep, okay, okay. And jenny, we have a few community calendar updates and what nots going on. What the what's happening in the community there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we got volunteered into Team Disc Golf this year so we will be playing for part of the Washington State Team Disc Golf. We will be on Team Grit City supporting Tacoma Washington with their new course, hopefully somewhere around Cheney Stadium, looking forward to having that come into play. So actually on Sunday we have our first time ever playing Team Disc Golf over in Maple Valley.
:I'm super excited and honored to be a part of Team Disc Golf this year. I just have to tell you that I'm stoked.
Speaker 1:Next weekend we are double booked. We have the eighth annual SeaTac Tree Smack, put on by Mr Chuck Mintz. Brandon will be playing on Saturday in MA3, and I will be playing on Sunday in the women's divisions, and Brandon will be playing team disc golf on Sunday while I'm at SeaTac Got the old double header there, yep, and he'll be in Lacey, and then that's all we're doing, that's all we're committed to so far through, like the end of March, yeah well a lot of this year's tournaments.
:2025 tournaments haven't updated yet, but we are super excited that the pro tour is coming back to Shelton this year the elite series actually.
Speaker 1:Yep Uh. May 16th through the 18th they will be in Shelton with the two new holes.
:Uh, those two new holes are ridiculously long holes, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And we will be running Sirens of the Springs for the third year on May 3rd and we will be debuting the Titans of the Timbers Tritons.
:Tritons, the Tritons of the Timbers.
Speaker 1:Tritons of the Timbers on the following Sunday.
:So we have a women's event and kind of a more male Well, we have a mixed event the next day, yeah, so the idea here is is that you know, guys come out and support ladies. You know, carry the bag for them. Uh, you know, carry their refreshments, their water bottles, give them a lot of encouragement and then hang out, because the next day you can all play together and we can have two tournaments back to back and everybody can be there and hopefully it's a great turnout.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and super honored to also share that. Our tournament, sirens of the Springs, was one of the highest voted events of the ladies series this year. So super excited to get to run it again and also share that type of tournament with the guys in the community, because a lot of the tournaments that are mixed don't necessarily get the kind of love and care that we provide at the Ladies Series. So excited to bring some of that fun to their tournament. Hey, shout out for Caddy.
:Bingo Right Caddy Bingo.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, it wasn't Caddy Bingo. Well, it was sort of no, no, no, just that one caddy bingo.
:Well, it was sort of no, no.
Speaker 1:No, just that one. Some of the caddies were like ah, I got to do the scorecard for my player.
:Yeah, oh, that's right, that's right. So, anyway, now that we are back in full swing, we've been working hard at putting together some quality content for you, so let's get on with our episode Without further ado, jenny. Well, should we?
Speaker 1:share why we took a year off. Sure, why not? I finished my admin certification, so I was in college and working and playing disc golf. That's right.
:Jenny is a fully-fledged public school administrator now, aren't you? Yes, sir, that's right. That's very cool. It's a huge accomplishment.
Speaker 1:And shout out to Chief Leshi that's where I'm currently working, so shout out to the kiddos over there.
:Shout out to Chief Leshi when are they getting a disc golf course.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know.
:Just putting that out there. Some good, some good vibes, all right, so without further ado, let's get into this episode of intentional disc golf. That was my critical role reference. If you didn't catch that, uh, but anyway. So this episode, wah, wah. I know, I know I was looking for something Where's.
Speaker 1:Fern, Wah wah.
:I know I was looking for something super, super climactic and maybe some cool theme music, but that just didn't happen. We need to get.
Speaker 1:Fern to come on and record some sound bites for us. Oh that would be so cool. Fern's our four-year-old niece. She'll be five this year. Oh, that would be so cool. Fern's, our four-year-old niece.
:She'll be five this year, oh yeah, she's a hoot, she's a hoot. Yep, all right, before we get too off the rails, love some Fern. However, there's one thing that we also love, and that's disc golf. And when it comes to disc golf, one of the hardest things to figure out is cracking the code. And yes, tonight we are talking about those lovely little things that are stamped on all your discs well, most of your discs and it seems like some sort of like super secret code that you need a cipher for. Uh, and we are going to try to help you decode those things. Yes, we're talking about flight numbers. So, flight numbers, you may know a little, you may know a lot, but we're gonna dig real deep into this and so you can really understand what those babies are talking about so you may want to star this episode and listen to it a few times yeah, this is definitely a notebook and paper.
:Maybe rewind it. Listen to it a few times, because there's a lot of science and physics that are going to go into this and what we're about to tell you might blow your mind. So our objectives by the end of this episode.
Speaker 1:Way to go, professor Saprinsky. You got it. Way to go, you got it. I'm working on it. Objectives Learning objectives we have learning objectives. That's right by the end of this episode, our listeners will be able to Go ahead. Oh no, no, that's what you write on your whiteboard.
:Oh, okay, well, I got my notes here. So we've been working hard. We got a new format, we've been really streamlining everything. Everything's research, verifiable and some anecdotal knowledge is in in there. But yeah, this is a disc golf master class is what we're.
:What we're shooting for right here and tonight is the flight numbers master class and uh. So by the end of this episode, you should have a basic knowledge in the origin and the history of how flight numbers and how they were developed. Also, develop an understanding of key terms, concepts of disc flight and flight patterns. Understand uh disc flight terms in the uh in the excuse me. Understand uh disc flight patterns in terms of energy. So that's a really important Uh kind of a change of wavelength as far as thinking process goes. Uh, we're going to also give you some useful tools and tips on how to analyze your discs and we're going to go ahead and clarify some of those common misconceptions, give you some tips for building a better bag for your game, and here's some practical examples that we use in our games as we uh have developed uh over the years. So, jenny, how's that sound to?
Speaker 1:you, I want to say that I have not been researching and I will be learning, right along with all y'all, what are flight numbers, jenny?
:what are they?
Speaker 1:they were randomly selected on a. Well, I think it's a d 12 now, like a bingo wheel a d12, and so you just roll the dice and hopefully you get a better roll than what I do when we're playing dnd all right.
:So when you're selecting a disc, it's pretty much like rolling the dice. You never know, like, uh, what you're really gonna get into. And you, you're half you're half right.
Speaker 1:You're on the right track with that I think in a previous episode we discussed that I buy discs based on the way that they look how pretty.
:They are not necessarily the way that they function by the way, somebody did find your, uh, your dirt brown disc. Uh just laying at the bottom of the tree the other day that's, I couldn't remember what disc I was supposed to look for yeah and.
Speaker 1:But I was just looking through the box and I couldn't remember it was.
:It was that one, and you know uh, just uh jumping ahead in the episode a little bit quick. Tip, hot take. If you're going to buy a disc, buy one that you can find, Just saying yeah.
Speaker 1:And if you're a disc golf company and you send discs to stores like 360 Disc Golf, don't send the ones that match the trees and the ground and the ferns.
:Yeah, the dead leaf forest green color scheme does not work very well up here in the Pacific Northwest. It may be grayed out in the desert somewhere.
Speaker 1:Matt still has a lot of green discs on his clearance rack and I thought for sure for St Patrick's Day he'd be like get a green disc for a dollar with every disc you buy well, like neon green is fine, like that sticks out like a sore thumb, but no, the forest green and the not in the spring dead leaf brown.
:And yeah, I know I got you. I got you. So why is it important, do you feel, to understand flight numbers and gain a deeper understanding of flight numbers?
Speaker 1:uh, to help you know the tools that you're using when you're playing the game. Is that your final answer? Well, it's like. So I'm knitting and I have to know what size needles I need in order to match the gauge of the yarn to make the thing I'm making. So disc golfing is kind of like that.
:So understanding how your disc is going to fly for the type of shot you're trying to throw.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like all the times I throw a disc and I get mad because it goes to the left instead of going right, like it's labeled.
:And how come your right hand discs also go left? They don't, yeah, they do. They don't All the time. No, they don't, yeah. You were yelling at me yesterday. Why is it going left? It's supposed to go right?
Speaker 1:well, that's because, no, I all my discs I throw right-handed. I'm not talented. No, you're very talented, but I'm not ambidextrous.
:I am glad you brought that up because, for the sake of this episode in this conversation, everything that we're referencing is going to be based off of a right hand backhand throw. So if you're a side armor or a left hander or a thumber tomahawker, you're going to have to make those conversions on your own. We will be talking pretty much just about right hand backhand throws. To establish a frame of reference here flight numbers. They're not as random as you might think and how did they come to be? Well, in the beginning people didn't really know how or why or you know how to describe a disc's flight pattern. Some won't let right, some of them went left, some of them crashed into the ground. So they use pretty ambiguous terms like these are good for beginners, these are overstable, these are understable, easy to control.
:Distance driver we've all heard of these kind of like just very vague terms, uh, but that that doesn't really tell you what they do and you'd have to go out to a field or something somewhere and throw them a lot to get a really good idea of what that disc did. And that's if you were a pretty solid thrower, because, as we'll discuss later, discs do something a little bit different for every single one of us. One of the popular brands Prodigy they still do this. You won't find a lot of flight numbers on Prodigy, they still do this is you won't find a lot of flight numbers on prodigy. It'll be something in the neighborhood of oh, this is a overstable driver, this is a fairway, you know a straight fairway driver, or is that just many of that does that? I believe it's prodigy, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm thinking of my prodigy discs, and they both have numbers on them, but some of them don't Like the PX2, it was just a putt and approach it didn't have it on there. It also came out in a first-time box that we got years ago. Like all my. Prodigy that I have has the flight numbers on it.
:I'm not sure which brand it is. In a lot of the older discs you'll still see. This still is that they'll just make statements about what kind of flight to expect out of it or what you can expect this disc to be good for, and it really doesn't give you any detail or anything about what this disc does.
Speaker 1:And so moving on, Well, and it's different for each person.
:It is a bit different. It is a bit different. Yeah, I'm agreeing with you.
Speaker 1:I know, but you disappeared.
:I know I did disappear.
Speaker 1:You went into the black hole.
:Right right.
Speaker 1:Yep, I'm switching your ducks, switching my ducks.
:All right. So what ended up happening is anova came along. You know anova, you know that that brand love them, hate them, love to hate them. You know the biggest disc golf brand, those guys. They came along and said, hey, we need to really nail this down and come up with some sort of a system to figure out how to describe these discs, flight, disc flights a little bit better, so that our consumers know what they're buying, so that you can make informed decisions. Well, and ironically, discraft, their competitor, thought the exact same thing. So they actually came up with two competing flight number systems and on a lot of the Discraft stuff you can still see this is they'll print the four number system, which is the ANOVA system, and they'll have a little box at the end that has like a 1.5 in it or like a 2 or a 0.1 or something like that. That is remnants of the old uh discraft system. Um, I actually got it right here. The discraft system originally went from negative one to plus 1.5 for the discraft system, but by the uh 1990s or so the Innova system was so popular that it was pretty universally accepted among manufacturers.
:But it's really important to know that there is no standard measurement or type or whatever for the flight numbers and the way that they're developed. It is arbitrary. In a sense. However, it's very collaborative as far as like this disc with similar flight numbers will will fly similar to this disc with the flight with these flight numbers, but not exactly the same it it differs from manufacturer to manufacturer and it differs from plastic to plastic as well, but there is. No, there isn't. Like these guys didn't get together around the table and say, hey, you know this, the constitute this. No, it's. It's pretty much just a compare and contrast and let's get close enough type of deal so you can see a lot of different variability even within the same like numbers family.
:When you're, uh, when you're out there considering those flight numbers, uh, at your local disc golf shop, uh, do understand that those, those flight numbers, are a baseline. They're kind of a starting off point to give you a basic idea of what you're buying and the way that the disc is supposed to behave. Uh, ideally, but it should not be your be all and all. So I guess the next question that needs to be answered is how are these flight numbers? How are they? Uh, how are they? How are they assigned? How do, how do they develop them for the uh, for the discs themselves? Do you know I?
Speaker 1:already told you, you're listening on a on a full moon on a full moon, on a tuesday, they all get together and they each roll a dice, and that determines the flight numbers. Well, you're also. You're still close.
:That's scary. You, you're still close. It is scary, it is scary. That's why your discs always go left, oh shush. So when it comes to assigning flight numbers, there's a few things that the manufacturers do when they are figuring out how to put these numbers on the system here. When figuring out these flight numbers and how to assign them, there is a lot of factors that the manufacturers take into consideration when they're putting these all together, and part of that is design and prototyping. So there is like computer programs and things of that nature, like a cad or or something like that, where they'll go in and they'll design the disc and they'll model and simulate the aerodynamic flow. There are actually, uh, places that have wind tunnels where they do test the profile of the discs. Um, isn't loft? One of those? Loft is the company. That's all sciencey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, dude that neon.
:That's a. That's such a weird disc. So weird. It looks like a dog bowl. It's like I want to put water in it for my dog well, it doubles as a dog bowl like oh, yeah, you know how many people have seen they use their disc.
Speaker 1:Your dog drink out of my disc?
:no, yeah and the great. The great thing about this technology is that you know designers can go in and they can uh change different aspects of the disc there in real time and see how they're going to behave or the predicted behavior anyway. Uh, you'd never really know until you get out there and uh throw them how they're going to behave for you. But they can test different shapes, different weights, different rim configurations and then they go out and they create the mold and they make a prototype. And a lot of times when they make these prototypes they go out and they beta test them.
:So the things like the trilogy challenges, the uh didn't discraft do one for the zones recently with the, the banger top and the groove top, I thought I have no idea, yeah it's something like it was the prodigy one that had like the three little birdies that I really wanted to do, but well, and then there's the, the mvp does the, does um the space race, space race and trilogy challenges and stuff all the time. Yep, yeah, so that that's how they go out and beta test. So not only do they go out and have pros throw these things around and test them and get their opinions, but they also send them out into the general public like those, uh, mystery boxes we used to get, or that subscription, oh yeah, yeah, we used to have way back when we started the disc member thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that one.
:Yeah, they always sent me discs that I couldn't throw. Well, at the time it was cool to have.
Speaker 1:That P2 is the one that came in a box like one of the last boxes we got.
:Yeah, that P2 was rad. I like the P2.
Speaker 1:That prodigy putter we got first. Like we both threw that one forever, which, oh yeah, that one, that was great. The one with the inappropriate cat.
:The inappropriate cat that's right. No, that was. Was that a prodigy one, mm-hmm? Or was that the? Was that the Eve 7? Eve 6?
Speaker 1:That's a band Eve 6. That's a band the Evie. 7.
:Evie 7, yeah.
Speaker 1:I thought it was a prodigy.
:I don't know, maybe, anyways, I don't know. So they go out and they beta test these things with professional players and amateur players alike, and also they use some companies use robotic throwers, use, um, some companies use robotic throwers. They have robotic arms like a, uh, like one of those things that throws clay pigeons for for a rifle range or something, so that they can tweak things and measure things very precisely as far as how the disc is going to react on different speed sets, different angles, uh, and the different flight characteristics of those discs. So that's also a tool that the manufacturers use. Anywho, are you following me so far over there, jenny?
Speaker 1:Yes, there are iRobots that in their off time from throwing clay pigeons they take a break and they go disc golf for the companies.
:Once the manufacturers have gotten together and gathered all this data, then they go back to the lab, so to say, and they produce. They, you know, have a meeting or whatever, and they figure out okay, you know, this is what this disc behaves like. And then they stamp it on there and there you go, there are your uh flight numbers. In a nutshell, so is that?
Speaker 1:so I'm just making a connection. I was looking at a disk I don't even remember which one Like where. Oh, like the NVs. You have an NV that's like a 3301, and I'm always saying, no, it's a 3302. So, like it changes based on the plastic and probably as they get more data, because I've seen a couple other discs where all of a sudden they've changed it, like the mantra that I got.
:the glow mantra is a negative two one instead of a negative two two, which the original ones were well, and I'm happy that you brought that up too because actually as the discs go out into the field and they develop and mature and say they've been out on the market for a year, the manufacturers will actually go back and monkey with the flight numbers and and change them.
Speaker 1:Uh, if they get bad customer feedback or good history whatever feedback they get for the customers they will change them so, so really all I can think of is those discs with those little bitty baby pictures on it how they get older and older and all of a sudden they're like big, macho discs yeah, it's hilarious. I haven't seen those well, it's like the little rudolph one on the f9.
:Oh, the ruddy, that little picture.
Speaker 1:Imagine a picture of a little BB like that and then it turns into the the big disc.
:We're on the big disc now. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Jeez, that's what you said as they go out there and they mature out in the world.
:Well, yeah, and so you were talking about the Enveys. I think there's what five or six different plastics that they've released the Enveys in, and some of them are 3302, some of them are, and we have them all. They're like 32-12. There's a bunch of different, so it will vary by plastic to plastic, even if it's the same mold type.
Speaker 1:I've been putting with an Envy for like four years now and I think I have found a replacement for it. Oh really, I have to say.
:Really, what is that one? The one that you've been?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, that one I just got.
:Which one was that as?
Speaker 1:we look at all the discs that are all over the floor. We're looking over there.
:What is the one you just got it's the erica stench comb which one is that one?
:oh, the, the thought space one. I'll go get it. Yeah, go get it. I want, I want to see it. And while you're going to get that, that is one of the challenges with all of the flight testing here is that the numbers are very subjective. So when you have, you know, something along the lines of an envy, where it's a 3302 from mvp, you can go over to, say, a similar disc from inova, and it'll actually behave completely different. What, what is what is that one there? Yeah, it's a thought space, it's a pra Space, it's a Praxis Aura, a Praxis Aura. And I must say that the plastic and the stamp are quite lovely. It's a brick. It's a brick. It's very firm. Isn't that like 177 or something like that? It's a heavy beast. It's only a 174. A 174. That's still pretty heavy for a putter, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's beastly because of the bear with horns and a snake. Wow.
:Isn't there like a jackrabbit that has deer horns on it. They call it the jackalope.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a jackalope, isn't?
:that the thing. What's a bear with horns on it, a bearalope.
Speaker 1:I don't know A bearalope?
:I don't know, I don't know. So now that we've gone over the way that these flight numbers are developed and tested and manufactured, now we can move into some of the meat and potatoes of this here thing. Um, talk about some key terms and concepts. Now this is going to get pretty heavy and convoluted, so I'll try to slow it down and talk about a lot of these things okay a bear with antlers is a legendary creature called the legendary boonville bear.
Speaker 1:It's a Pokemon or the northern California bear. It is believed to be a cross between a California grizzly and the Colombian black tail deer. Really, the largest colony of these bears is in Anderson Valley, california.
:Wait, they're real, no way.
Speaker 1:They can't be real Well, be well in dnd.
:It's also called a ursaloth, ursalia. Do they have magical powers?
Speaker 1:uh dnd. I would assume they have to have magical powers?
:no, I mean in real life, but maybe not real life. I don't know what we're talking about anymore.
Speaker 1:Oh, they also call it a beer a beer yeah b-e-e-r anyway.
:Uh, moving on and this is kind of the meat and potatoes you want to listen close to this. So we're gonna define some, some common ground here with some of these terms, some vocabulary, a little bit of physics lessons here. So I'll try to go through this as clearly and as concisely as I possibly can. So the first thing I want to talk about is differentiating between primary, primary slash, independent flight characteristics. Now, these are the same thing, primary meaning first, independent meaning that they operate on their own flight characteristics. And these flight characteristics, they're not reliant on anything else, except for the initial behavior, which in which you throw it with. So this happens regardless of the discs, uh, turn and fade rating, which we'll talk about a little bit later. Moving into the secondary flight characteristics or the dependent flight characteristics, these ones are reliant on those primary characteristics. So you need to use these primary characteristics in order to activate these secondary characteristics, and one of the best ways to describe it is the next thing is speed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, maybe saying hey. So on your desk, looking at those numbers the first one is called speed, the second one is glide and the next one is turn and the last one is it's fada, fade.
:We're talking about speed. This is the first number on the four number system on your disc. It signifiesifies speed. This is what I like to call a primary flight characteristic, because this is independent of all the other characteristics. Now, speed the way I refer to it and for the purposes of this discussion it'll make sense is the forward velocity that you need to throw the minimum velocity that you need to throw, the minimum velocity that you need to propel the disc forward in order to engage the turn and the fade effectively.
Speaker 1:And wouldn't speed be the number that's most? How do I want to say this that's most personally related to each person, because a nine for me doesn't fly the same way as a nine for you.
:I would say that speed is probably the most misunderstood number on the four number system.
Speaker 1:But what I'm trying to say is, if I'm really new to this and I don't know a lot, if I focus on the speed of a disc first and try and figure out what speed works best for me, that that that's a good entry point into understanding the flight dynamics of a disc.
:Well, one of the common mistakes you're on. Yes, you're onto something here. One of the common mistakes that people make is one they think that a higher speed goes further, and in theory, yes. However, if you can only throw 250 feet, it's, you know, a, a 12 speed is going to go 250 feet, the same as, say, a five speed is going to go 250 feet. It's, it's not really going to matter, and still, you, until you start pushing those big distances. What is going to matter, though that we will dive deeper into later on is that 12 speed at 250 feet is going to veer off to the left, uh, quite sharply, rather than hold its course and kind of stay towards the middle of the fairway. So we'll talk about why that is a little bit later on, when we get into analyzing the different discs.
:So, and the other thing is, I remember when we went into Matt's like the first time we call it Matt's, now it's 360 Disc Golf down in Bremerton Awesome place. Can't praise them enough. They're awesome people in there. We love them, matt and Nicole, yippee. But I remember going in there for the first time and oh yeah, I'm a big, big, strong guy, I'm going to show my prowess and I'm going to go and buy the biggest, heaviest duty. I'm going to get an 11, 12 speed, because that's my ego talking more than anything.
Speaker 1:Had Doomsday Discs been there at that time he been there at that time you would have bought that, I would have bought that. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely just because it's a 15 speed pan lid the 15.
:Yeah, yeah, just just because you know. I needed to prove a point when the the fact of the matter is is that my arm speed was not developed enough. I had no business throwing a 12 speed. I had no business, at that point, even throwing like an eight speed. I should have took matt's advice and stuck to like a five or six.
Speaker 1:Honestly, and you never should have thrown the hades, because it always went into way into the cow pasture ever at bud bell oh yeah, every time, oh yeah, oh yeah.
:No, that was the katana no, that was your hades that was my hades.
:Oh yeah, okay, well, anyway, yeah. So, um, there, there you go. Uh, the speed doesn't necessarily mean it goes further, it doesn't necessarily mean that, uh, it's like a skill level. It's definitely the forward velocity that you can throw that at and that's the well. You got to think of it as the minimum, like you have to meet this threshold in order for the turn and the fade to start working for you.
:So, moving on to the next one is the glide. So the second number in the four number system and I also say that this is a primary and independent flight characteristic, because the glide kind of does its own thing on its own and for the sake of this conversation, we need to think of the discs glide as the resistance to it slowing down. I know we, you know it said, you know how far it, how long it'll stay in the air, and that has to do with how much lift the airfoil generates. And we can get into all that. For the sake of this conversation, let's just say that it's resistance to slowing down, and you'll understand why once we get into analyzing these discs and to go a step further with that, think of that as in terms of time. It's going to take longer to slow down than, say, a disc that has like a three glide like a firebird. You look, you look, puzzled over there. Jenny, is that registering with you?
Speaker 1:I didn't realize a firebird was a three.
:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But then again I try to have most of my discs have a really long glide.
:Yeah, yeah, and which, which is a lot of times a desirable, a desirable trait for people that have a little bit lower arm speeds, like beginners and advanced women even beginner women glide is very helpful for that. Kids are good for having high glide, depending.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've seen Glide doesn't matter if you only throw rollers.
:Hayley yeah, yeah, hayley, hayley is the uh, the roller queen. She's got that thing down. I taught her the other day. I said, hey, look, you turn the disc the other way, it'll, it'll pan out the other way, and that was like a light bulb turned on she was like really I can get this thing that to roll over the other direction. I can control which way it goes.
Speaker 1:Make it not go left exactly.
:She was stoked about that. So all right, moving on the next one, the third number in the four number system is the turn, and this is where we start to move into the dependent or the secondary flight characteristics. So in order for the turn to start working, you have to throw it at that minimum velocity, minimum forward velocity, like I was saying. So if you're throwing a 12 speed you have to have a pretty good arm speed, you know release speed, in order for the uh, the turn to really engage. That's why throwing things like destroyers and uh and uh bosses and the pan lid are so difficult and so hard to control is because you really have to have a fast arm to uh puck that thing down the fairway, as opposed to like, say, if, as long as we're talking to destroyer, it's like a 13, five, negative one, three, well, what if we went to like a five, five negative one three or a five, five negative one, two? That would take a lot less forward momentum, forward velocity to get the fade to engage and get that negative one effect and get it to drift off to the right hand on a right hand backhand throw. So it is a secondary flight characteristic is dependent upon how fast that disc is moving and how long it stays above that threshold. So the speed is a threshold, the turn is what happens when you reach that threshold, and that's why it's a secondary characteristic. And then we have the fade. So the fade is the fourth number in the four number system, and so the fade is the quickness, the, the, the, the speed at which the disc will return to the ground as it loses momentum. So you would think that something that has a high fade, like, say, a zero four, or like say, let's, let's just make up a disc here, uh, random imaginary disc 12 404. So like a 12 404, that four is not going to like make a big hook to the left. Well, what's going to happen? More so is that that four at the end is going to make the disc crash into the ground very sharply, uh, pretty close to your midline. It's not going to have this big hook response. If you want a big, a big hyzer hook, a big left hand hook, you want to get like a fade that has like a two or a two or one fade, and then you'll have more of a hooky response. But the lower your fade is also, the more it's going to glide out. So you're going to push that distance and it is dependent upon the rate of spin the disc has when it starts to lose momentum. So this is why it's a secondary characteristic is because it is dependent upon that spin, and if the disc is spinning really really fast, the disc is going to more glide out than crash into the ground hard. So that's really important to remember as we get on with the conversation here.
:All right, so the next thing we need to talk about is momentum. We're talking about junior high physics class. Well, maybe, like early high school, ninth grade physics, I learned this in ninth grade but I went to a completely different school. I was, I went to school in a completely different world than all you city slickers, all you city slickers. So anyway, um, so momentum, very simply put, mass times velocity equals newtons per second. So this is expressed in newtons per, in newton seconds. So mass times velocity, so the weight of the disc, times how fast you throw it to.
Speaker 1:To clarify Newton's a little bit more I'm very much reminded as to why I took chemistry and not physics.
:I know, and I'm a physics, because I'm a nut job when it comes to physics I can blow stuff up Instead of listening to all this math. I can blow stuff up with physics too.
Speaker 1:Hermingern.
:So anyway, um, a newton. So to get more into what a newton is, newton is the amount of force needed to propel an object and, more specifically, the amount of energy needed to accelerate one kilogram of mass, one meter per second squared. So again, we have to think of that velocity in terms of energy and we have to think of that momentum, in terms of energy and mass, of the disc moving forward at a certain speed. So that's going to be really important. When we talk about the finishing characteristics of the disc and we talk about different flight patterns such as like hyzer flips and flex shots, uh, there was a discussion topic on one of the facebook groups, which, which is going to fly further, is a hyzer flip or a flex shot, and so we'll we'll chat about that a little later when we get to the common questions and, uh, different things and such.
:The next thing we need to talk about is revolutions, and I know that's getting kind of long. So revolutions, slash, spin, one complete cycle, 360 degrees of rotation, in this case the rim of the disc rotating around the disc's center of gravity, and that will bring us also to torque In terms of disc golf, a torque. Torque is the amount of force spinning around an axle, uh, of of any such. But in disc golf, in disc golf terminology, we refer to torque as the disc wobbling. So the fluttering effect uh, I don't know if you've seen own Skagen's her putting how it the disc kind of flutters as it goes in and that's actually called off axis torque.
:And so what that is is the disc is rotating around two axes. It's running rotating around the y-axis which is at seven at center of gravity, and then it's also rotating slightly around the y-axis which is its center of gravity, and then it's also rotating slightly around the x-axis which is causing that wobbling effect. And it is considered a throwing error and on distance drivers and mid-ranges and such it does sacrifice distance and accuracy. The reason that you get that off-axis torque most commonly is because you're not getting enough spin on your disc to cause that torque to kind of stabilize and work itself out. And so that brings us to torque. Resistance is the tendency for a disc to correct itself in flight if it is thrown with x-axis rotation, so if it does have a wobble to it out of the hand, it's the ability for the disc to correct itself while it's traveling down the fairway, hopefully, and not the rough for the out-of-bounds area. Or, jenny, you look amazed.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you guys can tell out there in listening land, but Brandon is clearly writing the curriculum for like a double doctorate in physics and disc golf.
:Oh, it'll all come together. I promise you this It'll all come together, and all of these terms will come together and it'll all make sense. So next thing we need to do is we need to understand gyroscopic force. So gyroscopic force is like a bicycle wheel it's something that's spinning, and the faster it spins, the more resistant it is to change is that why my head's starting to hurt?
Speaker 1:Because all of the spinning and it's resistant to understanding what you're saying oh my God.
:Yeah, I know there's a lot. I told you there is a lot, but it's important.
Speaker 1:Folks, there's like 12 more pages in his hands. I'm not joking. No, there's only nine more pages and we're on page four. Nine more, no, no, oh my God.
:There's nine pages, total, total, and we're on page four. Yeah, I know, and we're almost done with this part. It's not 12. The other ones just wait until we get to the feedback episode. That's going to be awesome, I know, I know, and that's your expertise because you're a teacher, you're a professional coach, so you should, you should really be teaching that one uh gyroscopic force is the tendency for an object to a spinning object to resist change, and that that force typically moves 90 degrees or perpendicular to the uh applied force, so 90 degrees to the axis, like the rim of rim of a disc. And the one of the really important things Jenny, you heard me talking about this out in the field the other day is gyroscopic precession. Yes, precession, and it's the tendency for the gyroscopic access to wobble when another force is applied to it in the form of torque talking about it when when we were out playing at freddy's, or no, we were at yesterday.
:No, the day before we were, we were uh at, uh at nad. We were at ned park and you were asking me what I was working and I said gyroscopic procession oh under understanding my gyroscope, because it's okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, you're good well, the disc.
:The disc is a gyroscope. I it in. Maybe we don't think of it that way because it's just a disc. It's not a frisbee. I almost cussed. It's not a frisbee, not a frisbee. Okay, it's a disc.
:But oftentimes we think of discs like an airplane wing, which is not wrong, but it's not entirely correct. We need to think discs more of, as say, a helicopter blade or a helicopter rotor. The blades on a helicopter are designed aerodynamically like airplane wings so that they can generate lift rotor as the turbine turns on the uh, the, the rotor, the, the, uh, the. The blades will tendency to wobble a little bit. They're not going to go completely center and so they move because both the spin and lift are acting on the blades at the same time in different areas, which causes more of like if you were to draw a line up through the center of gravity. It causes more of like a cone of if you were to draw it out and trace it and that that disc in that blade, that helicopter blade, is going to wobble just a little bit. It doesn't need to be a heck of a lot.
:And those gyroscopic procession. Now, the reason that that is important is because the faster that something is spinning, the more gyroscopic force it has, the more stable it becomes. So light bulb turning on. As far as disc flights and why they behave the way they do, we'll talk. We'll get into it a little more later.
Speaker 1:Nope nope, no we'll explain it in detail. A better explanation is when you go to those kids museums and they always have that bike wheel on handles.
:Yeah, that's part of it, that's part of it. And when you hold the bike wheel on the, yeah, that's part of it, that's part of it. And when you hold the bike wheel on the handle, it does kind of do that, doesn't it? It kind of wobbles back and forth.
Speaker 1:You can make it do that and then you can actually feel those forces and it's kind of cool.
:Yeah, like the Children's Museum, yeah. Or like, if you have ever bent one of your bike tires on your bike, you can feel the bike wobble back and forth, but it seems to go away the faster you go because it starts to stabilize out.
Speaker 1:Don't tell the kids that.
:Don't tell them they have helmets, they'll be fine.
Speaker 1:Only one of them has a helmet.
:Well, that's the one that should have a helmet. It's body armor. We need to dumb down a couple of the kids real quick. They're getting too smart.
Speaker 1:Maybe a couple head injuries would do them good. You should really be having this conversation with James about this topic because he'd probably be a better candidate for this discussion than I am.
:He'd be looking at me like yeah, so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but did you know?
:this yeah, so.
Speaker 1:Hey do you know what happens when a tree poops? What, jenny, it makes number two pencils. Thanks, vern.
:I know, don't I have a sound effect for that Like here, here we'll do the uh, here we go, there we go, rim shot.
Speaker 1:Does it?
:tell you on there, yeah, it's going to rip here. I got this one too. I told you, I know it's the friend one. I told you, off the rails, I know it's the Fern one. I told you, off the rails yet again. All right, and you said you didn't like sound effects. So, real quickly. We're almost to the end of this. Bear with me.
:Aerodynamics, how an object travels through the air. I'm not going to get into any more of that. And then we have to talk about lift and how lift is created, and it has to do with pressure. So, as air travels over an airfoil, lift is creative, created, not creative, um. And what it is is it creates a higher pressure zone on the bottom side of the wing and a lower pressure zone on the top side of the wing. So the pressure, the air pressure, is actually pushing the plane or the disc up in the air. It's pushing it up. It's not like floating or it's kind of hard to explain, but you got to think of it as a like, as if I was, you know, taking a book and pushing it towards the ceiling or something of that nature. It's a that, that kind of action. And then we have to talk about the center of lift is lift acts on the disc, all over the surface of the disc. The center of lift is where the most lift on average is concentrated on this point on the disc. So the point on an airfoil where the lifting force is the most concentrated is what I have written down here.
:And then we get into the old disc stability. So understable on a right hand, backhand turn, that is, the disc's tendency to fly to the right when thrown. And some characteristics of an understable disc are a smaller rim shall shallower flight plate and a lower parting line on the mold. So that's the midline on the mold, whether it's lower or higher on the disc. On an understable disc it's typically lower than the midway mark.
:And then we have to talk about what causes that disc to flip over. So what causes a disc to flip over, especially on an understable disc, is scientifically it's the position of the center of lift to the center of gravity. So when the position of center of lift is further away from the center of gravity, so out towards the edge of the disc, there's more lift on the edge of the disc than there is uh, keeping it stable in the gyroscope. So that causes the disc to turn all the way over and tail off to the right, and that's where you get your rollers. And the further the way, uh, the further they are from each other the center of lift and the center of gravity. So the further they are from each other, the center of lift and the center of gravity. So the further towards the edge the center of lift is, is the more understable the disc is and the more tendency it'll have to flip over. So just going over that a few times in a few different ways, and so also it is a byproduct of when you're throwing velocity is too high in relation to the spin of the disc, so the disc will become more understable, which may cause the disc to turn over. So I'll say that again is that if you're throwing the disc too hard and you don't have enough spin on it to keep it stable, that is what is causing your disc to flip over. So if you're having problems with your disc flipping over, you need to figure out how to not throw as hard or get more spin on your disc.
:Now let's talk about overstable disc. Now let's talk about overstable. Overstable is the disc's tendency to hold the line when it's thrown. The lift pressure generated on the flight plate is distributed more evenly, so it causes the disc to be more resistant to turning to either direction in flight. So, like I said, the ability for that disc to hold a line we're not talking about when it starts to slow down. That's a completely separate thing. We're talking about in the middle of its flight, when it's in its uh, in its cruising kind of zone. One reason for this is because the parting line, uh, because of the parting line, more air is forced underneath the disc, causing it to redist, uh, resist turning. So it's going to have more kind of lifting pressure underneath the disc in order for it to stay nice and stable up in the air and stay very nice and smooth.
:Now the disadvantage or advantage to this, depending on how you look at it, these discs will return to the ground more quickly as they lose momentum, causing them to travel further left towards the end of their flight. So, overstable you often see it go in the turn. You have zero, negative, negative, negative, negative, and then in the fade you have positive pot as a positive pot or zero, right. So what you see in an overstable disc is you have a zero in the turn and then in the fade category you have like a three or a four or maybe even a two, and these discs have a tendency to return to the ground more quickly. And these discs have a tendency to return to the ground more quickly. However, what makes them more stable is they have a tendency to maintain their spin a lot better, so they will keep spinning a lot easier, say, an understable disc.
:So an understable disc needs a lot of spin to keep it nice and stable, nice and straight and do what it's supposed to do. A overstable disc does not need as much more spin and that's why they're considered to be more controllable and more desirable is because they're actually a lot more forgiving than the understable stuff. Believe it or not, you need some pretty good technique to throw understable. Now the reason that under stable is great for beginners is because beginners don't have really great technique, so they the disc gets released at odd angles. A lot of people have a natural hyzer release. So where the blade is tipped down, we'll talk about that a little bit more. But where the blade is tipped down and the velocity on the disc with the lack of spin will cause that disc to flip and come to a flat plane, kind of negating some of that technique deficiencies there. So some of the characteristics of an overstable disc are a higher parting line, so above the center of the disc, uh, and often have a thicker rim profile and, uh, they. One of the other characteristics of their flight pattern is they're also more torque resistant. So remember we talk about that, that torque resistance or the wobble in midair.
:An overstable disc is going to be able to correct itself a lot easier than, say, an understable disc. An understable disc will flutter and do all sorts of things and you'll lose distance and accuracy. And another thing to note here is the type of plastic matters when it comes to understable and overstable. Harder plastics have a tendency to be more overstable and to to hold those lines a lot better. But softer plastics have a tendency to be more understable. So, for example, anova's g star as as compared to, like, say, a dx or a baseline plastic. However, the disability will change as those plastics and polymers start to break down and become softer. And the softer they become, the more understable they will become.
:And then we go to the last thing is the stable disc, uh, something along the lines of, say, an innova, mako or a discraft buzz and what that is is that the center of the lift pressure is distributed evenly across the flight plate and also the center of gravity, so that it rotates nice and easy and stable and it'll hold a line and the angle that is released on, even during the final phases of its flight, and no disc.
:It's important to note that no disc is ever going to be a completely neutral, stable flight pattern. They were always kind of go off to the right, always kind of go off to the left. There's no such thing as a completely straight shot, as much as we would like to think so there, there just isn't. And then, last but not least, in our key terms and concepts, we need to talk about the heiser and anheuser angles. I like to refer to this as the heiser angle is when the, when you're holding your disc in your ready position, when you turn the furthest edge away from your body, when you angle that down towards the ground or turn the stamp away from you so you can't see it.
Speaker 1:That is a hyzer the only way I remember is that annie is like a girl, so it's facing towards me because I'm a girl. That's the only way I remember well and there you go and anhyzer anhyzer is is the other way.
:I remember Well and there you go, and Anheuser is the other way. So the furthest edge of the disc away from your body is tilted upwards towards the sky so you can read the stamp. And that's the different release angles. And of course there's neutral angle, which is just flat. But hey, what fun is that? Right, hard and flat, hard and flat. Who's that gal? We played with her a bunch last year. She was funny. I can't remember Hard and flat. If you're out there listening to this, you know who you are Hard and flat. And then she'd cuss at us and get mad.
:She's so awesome. I know she's so funny, so funny. So, moving on, here we're going to get into analyzing a couple of these popular discs. So here what I have, what what's that interesting choice?
Speaker 1:why, innova discraft mvp and then two latitude discs yep, I did that on purpose brave's not that popular no, but it's a.
:It's a good one to compare to you should use the peril what the peril I'm not using the pearl. I'm not gonna use the pearl. Oh my gosh, so the black?
Speaker 1:Now, mine was white.
:What are you doing?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I can't read it.
:Oh.
Speaker 1:It's not facing me. Is that your lucky cricket? That's my crickets.
:Your lucky cricket. Shame on you, shame on your cow.
Speaker 1:Man, there were so many crickets at Rhododendron that last time we played. Oh, that's cool.
:Oh yeah, I remember that that was wild. The new course over at Fort Steilacoom it's hefty, it's not for the faint of heart and it's position golf, so it's definitely not something that we're used to because we play a lot of woods golf and so and you would think that that translates well.
Speaker 1:It doesn't. It doesn't.
:It doesn't. It doesn't. I think what it is is. You get out there, you get all excited and you lose all control because you just want to bomb stuff down the fairway.
Speaker 1:No, it's. I think that it should be able to go right there and miss the freaking ob road that's in the middle and it lands on the road or slides to the road. Yeah stupid.
:The wind picks it up and throws it on. Yeah, don't you stop it?
Speaker 1:oh my god you showed me what the buttons do. What was that one? It was a chimes oh I love that one.
:Yeah, there's here, I got. I got more too. Oh, I can do these here. Like don't I can. I don't like that I can beep out cuss words, so anyway okay, focus.
Speaker 1:We're only on page two.
:I know I don't know this is page six. It's page six, so I'll try to get through this real quick. Yeah, we always say that, so I'm going to try to convey to you a visual, uh visual method, uh, verbally, on how to map out your discs on a piece of paper so that you can really understand their flight patterns. I call this the speedometer method. So what you're going to do is you're going to do like a half moon circle, just like the speedometer on your car and just like the speedometer on your car.
Speaker 1:Hey, if you do not have an old-fashioned speedometer and you have an automatic thing, it is a half moon, it is 180 degrees, a half circle Of a circle.
:Like make a ball, draw a line through the middle of it, yep, so that it's cut in half Yep, yep, yep, and then you put a dot in the middle of it.
Speaker 1:It's like if you take a tortilla and fold it in half.
:Yes, half a tortilla.
:Half a tortilla, one half tortilla, that's correct. And the disc I'm going to be analyzing for this right here is the Innova Destroyer. It's a 12-5-1-3. So on this half circle, on the left-hand side of it, where the zero would be on my speedometer, I'm going to put a one, and where the 100 mile per hour on my speedometer would be, I'm going to put a 15. Because that's the highest that I've seen a disc speed go is the 15 pan lid from Doomsday Discs, which I'm not going to throw that ever, just because I don't want to. So and then up towards the high center, the middle of the circle, I'm going to put an eight, because eight is halfway between one and fifteen. So there would be seven slots on either side of it. So eight is the halfway point, directly above the dot on the top of the circle. So as I travel around the arc of the circle, I go up around, I start at one, I go up around eight and I move around and I kind of guesstimate where 12 might be on this. So I put a little dash mark on my circle and I put 12. Probably it's halfway between the 8 and the 15. And I take that dash mark and I extend it all the way down to the dot in the center of my speedometer. So, just like the needle on the speedometer of your car, I should have a 12. I should have a 12. It's kind of jetting off to the right at maybe I don't know a 130 degree angle or so between the 8 and the 15 along the arc, and so now we're starting to put together a nice visual representation of this.
:So, on the little pie slice, so between the 12 and the 15, I'm going to put my uh turn number, which is negative one, on a destroyer. So that zone is my turn zone. Now, between the 12 and the one, going back to the left hand side of of the needle, I'm going to put 3 because that's my fade zone. So remember when I said let's think about this in terms of time. So, as we're looking at our speedometer, I have to throw this disc, this destroyer, at a 12 speed, which is pretty high up there, and it's going to hang out at that 12 or above and hang out in that negative one zone. But then why does my destroyer hook left so hard? Why does it go left, left, left and left? Well, because the piece of the pie that is in the fade zone. So below the 12 is much, much larger than the piece of the pie that is in the uh turn zone. Well, we'll take these notes and pictures and post them on our uh social media um as well, so that you guys can see them and what exactly that we're talking about.
:So this is a destroyer. So this is your turn on the right hand side, between 12 and 15, and this is your fade on the left hand side, between 1 and 12. So that's what a destroyer would look like. And then your glide is your, its resistance to slowing down. So something with a higher glide is going to hang out in the turn zone a little bit longer than, say, a one-to-one ratio here. But the reason being that a destroyer is going to hook off to the left really, really hard is because, well, it's slowing down for a long, long time and you're underneath the threshold for a long, long time, and you're not. You're underneath the threshold for a long, long time.
:Now let's take another popular disc and we're going to draw the same one. Let's, let's go down to a brave, which is similar to a destroyer but a much lower speed. So I'm going to go to a latitude 64, brave, and I'm going to draw the same speedometer configuration. So the half circle with the dot in the middle, one on one side, 15 on the other, eight at the top of the arc, all right, and then my dot in the middle, or a place to connect my needle, and so a brave um, from latitude 64 is a seven, six, negative one, two. So a seven, six, negative, one, two. So I'm going to go up here and I'm going to find my seven, which is just to the left of eight, and it doesn't have to be exact, it just somewhere in the neighborhood. I'm going to put a seven about uh. Above it, I'm going to extend that little dash mark all the way down to my center dot so that I know uh, I have the half circle divided into two sides, right and so now what I'm going to do is on the right hand side. There I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to put my uh turn on the right hand side, which is a negative one, and I'm going to put my fade on the left hand side, which is a negative one, and I'm going to put my fade on the left hand side, which is a two.
:Now you can get this picture already, if you're imagining in this in your head or if you're looking at it on a sheet of paper and actually drawing it out that your brave is not going to go as far left as your destroyer, and the reason why is because it's going to spend much, much, much more time than the destroyer in your uh turn zone, which is the negative one. So it's going to, it's going to be traveling to the right a lot longer than it is traveling to the left. So you'll be not you'll be you'll be happy to see this thing take off and land more towards the center of the fairway and have more control over it, because you don't have to have quite as much arm speed to engage that secondary flight characteristic. So is I I hope this is making sense now the primary and secondary characteristics. Because once you reach that on the brave, once you reach that seven threshold, the disc starts traveling to the right and it can hold that seven, depending on your arm speed, for a longer time than it can hold on the destroyer. It can hold that 12 for a much shorter time than on the brave.
:So next you were saying let's do the diamond. So let's talk about an understable disc. Let's talk about that understable disc. So I'm gonna do a diamond and it's the same, drawing over and over. So the speedometer, big circle, dot 115. Now, this is, this is a good one, so. And then eight at the top center of the arc. So this is a good one.
:The diamond is an eight, six, uh, negative three one. This is a very popular disc amongst, uh, female players, um, and also amateurs and young players, because it's a very forgiving disc, easy to use and it gets that much desired hyzer flip very easily. So this one's right up the middle. I'm going to go to my eight and I'm going to draw that line straight down so that my circle's pretty much divided in half, although it is divided in half, and on the right-hand side of that circle, right half of that circle, I'm going to put that negative three and then on the left-hand I'm going to put the one. So the negative three side is my turn and the negative or in the in the positive one side is going to be my fade.
:So for the diamond, I'm going to throw this disc at a minimum threshold of eight. So a forward velocity of eight and, like I said, these numbers are a bit arbitrary. They're kind of comparative. So an eight speed and one brand is going to be close to an eight speed and another brand, but not necessarily dead on, because they're not standardized. And so I'm going to throw this disc at a speed, forward velocity of eight. It's going to engage the secondary flight characteristic and start traveling to the right at a factor of three. So it's going to be turning, turning to the right at a factor of three, and then, when it starts to slow down and come back to the ground, it's going to slow down past that eight threshold and then it's whenever it's beneath that eight threshold, it's going to be traveling to the left by a factor of one. So if you throw this thing correctly, you're never going to see it return back to the center line. However, it's very desirable for, let's say, a hyzer flip, and we'll talk about how that works in a little bit.
:Now, if you're really understanding this and you're really following this, you say, okay, well, I'm doing the math on this, I'm drawing all of my things and I'm getting down to my putters. So let's get down to this envy real quick and then we'll move on. So putters, why do they fly so straight? Well, this is why we're going to draw the same setup. So eight near the top of the arc, 15 on the right side, one on the on the left side, and you have that uh half circle, semi-circle, and so we're going to go to an envy which is a 3302, depending the plastic that you're uh throwing. I'm going to make a little mark just above the one at three and I'm going to extend that mark all the way down to the center of my circle, to the little dot in the center, so that it's a speedometer.
:Okay, and if I'm following this, it's a three. Three oh two. So all of that area, all of that area on to the right of the three mark, is going to be my turn zone. So when I release that disc at a speed of three, a forward velocity of three, it's going to have zero turn, which means it's going to hold that line. Whatever angle, whatever line that I put it on, it's going to hold that line. So if I release it on a little bit of an angle, it's going to hold that angle and it's going to hold that line. It's going to hold that line. It's going to hold that line until it drops below the three speed threshold and then it's going to come back and it's going to return to the ground by a factor of two. Now, it's not exact factors as far as mathematical sense, but I hope I'm conveying a clear picture.
:So why don't we drive with putters? Well, a lot of people do and putter and a lot of times when you have a advanced player teaching a novice player, they'll say learn how to throw putters. Throw putters because lower speeds require less effort, less velocity to engage those secondary flight characteristics. They spend less time in the slow down zone or the zone to the left or the fade zone, all the same thing. They spend less time returning to the ground than they do gliding, and so they'll be able to hold that line and being able to stay on on the fairway a lot better. Well, why don't we drive with putters? Why can't a putter go 500 feet? Well, I bet if you throw it hard enough, a putter could go 500 feet.
:However, the reason that they don't is well, first, humans have only have so much power and, of all, what you have is you have, uh, air resistance build up in front of the nose of the disc. So if you look at a driver where the rim of the disc is very thin and very slender. It's mating through cutting, made for cutting through the air and and having that aerodynamic flight, as where a putter is built more for stability and flying, flying nice and flat and nice and stable. The trade-off to that is is that the putter has a big, thick like wall for a rim and so the air pressure, air resistance will build up in front of the disc until it finally loses enough momentum where it'll actually stop it and send it down to the ground. And that's why putters will crash out a lot of times and stay very low to the ground is because of that air resistance.
:Now let's touch real quickly on some similar discs from different brands. So I have here in my notes I have a hex which is uh, I believe it's the same as a buzz. It's a five, five negative one, one. Five, four negative one, one. Um, so I know a buzz is a five, four negative, one one.
:I know that a hex is five, five negative, four, one right, and then you have have a river which is seven, seven, negative, one, one yeah, uh, hex is a negative one, not a negative four no, I said negative one one, yeah, so hex is negative one one, buzz is negative one one, a river is a negative one one and a Mako is zero, zero, but they're both between like the five and seven speed family, so kind of your mid range fairway driver, uh type of type of discs. These discs will behave very, very differently, even though they are in the same numbers family. They all throw and they behave very, very differently. So, like say, a Mako is very flippy and we'll flip up and flip over when you, when you throw it, as where a river still will have a little bit of a finish to the left on it, a little bit of fade at the end of it. So, uh, even similar number families across brands will vary greatly. And so it really matters for you to go out and test different discs, test, test different bland brands, uh, different plastics, even within the same number of families, because all those discs are going to behave differently uh, depending on who you are, how hard you throw, how much spin you get on the disc. There's so many factors involved. What really matters is what works for you.
:Moving on here, now we're in. We're into the common questions clarifications, misconceptions, questions and misconceptions. So we already talked about this a bunch. Flight numbers will vary between manufacturers. They will also vary between different plastics. The softer the plastic is, the more understable the disc is going to become, so the more tendency it's going to have to move over to the right on a right-hand back-hand throw, right on a right hand backhand throw and the reason for that is, again, is the center of lift is more concentrated on one spot rather than spread it out over the dome of the disc, causing it to turn over and flip over. A base plastic is going to perform different than, say, like a champion plastic or a g-star plastic or, if you're a latitude person, a gold plastic or, let's say, an opto plastic. All of those are going to have very, very different, uh flight characteristics.
:Now let's talk about weight. This is where the Newtons and the velocity and the force are going to come in. So your discs are usually weighed in grams and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, uh, in in like slots of five grams. But there is a big difference between, like, say, a one 50 gram driver to a one 75 gram driver, and consider this. So if your arm is able to produce X amount of force. Right, you're able to throw at X amount of speed.
:My momentum is going to be the same, but my mass, my mass and my velocity are going to change a little bit, because my velocity is going to go up, my mass is going to go down, but my momentum is going to stay the same. Now this is not going to work very well for putting spin on the disc and disability stability. The disc may fly a little further because it's got more velocity, but it's going to become less stable because it's not going to have enough spin to compensate for that velocity. So you either got to have a ton of spin on your disc if you're going to use a lightweight disc, or you're going to have to go to a heavier disc. Vice versa, if you throw a heavier disc, your arm speed is going to go down, but the mass is going to go up. So you're carrying the same amount of momentum, you're just not throwing it forward with the same amount of velocity. So it's not going to move forward as fast as, say, a lightweight disc. This is helpful because you don't have to have as much spin on the disc.
:The heavier the disc is because your velocity is going to change. Now ultimately something with more mass. So a heavier disc is going to be better for cutting through the wind, resisting changes in flight path, because the more mass something has, the better gyroscopic stability it has. And so that's kind of the incentive and the trade-off to going to something like a heavier disc as you advance you might lose a little distance, but you're going to have a lot more control and a lot more stability because of the gyroscopic stability we said we'd talk about this later. So what is a hyzer flip and how does it work? Jenny, you know what a hyzer flip is? Nope, yeah, you do.
Speaker 1:Nope, nope, you do it all the time.
:Nope, I do a hyzer bomb, hyzer bomb, hyzer bomb, everything, hyzer bomb. So anyway, a hyzer flip is when you put an understable disc or something that's understable for you I shouldn't necessarily say an understable disc, but I should say something that's understable for you depending on your arm speed and you put it at a slight haizer angle and that forward velocity allows that disc to flip up. And the idea is is that you want the disc to come up to flat, to plane, or even a little bit of anhyzer, and the reason that that happens is because the center of lift and the center of gravity actually slide and move kind of across the disc, depending on the release angle and the spin, and when those two forces equal each other out, that is when the disc flips up to flat and flips up to even a little bit of anhyzer, and that's why you throw it. That's why you throw it on that angle is because it will allow for that shift to happen and that shift just so happens to be where the disc is flat or even, ideally, just slightly anhyzer, so that it'll have a little bit of finish on it. That's the physics between behind a hyzer flip, and the question we asked earlier is what goes further, a hyzer flip or a flex line. So flex line is the nice s curve, the long floaty s curve, and I know it looks pretty. But a hyzer flip is actually much, much more uh distance, uh efficient. And the reason being is is that, remember, we're talking about that momentum, that mass times, acceleration, and the shortest difference distance between uh one place to another is a straight line, unless you're talking about wormholes. But discs don't teleport, um, at least not so much that I know of. I mean, I have found my discs in weird places unexpectedly. I mean, it happens. But the reason a hyzer flip is uh so much further is because, one, it travels in that straight line from one place and another and you're throwing it at the same momentum than, say, that, say you would be throwing that uh flex line disc. So the flex line disc, flex line is a little bit floaty and it's a little more pretty and it gets that nice little s curve and everybody cheers. But a hyzer flip is actually much, much straighter, much, much faster and will'll go much, much further because it's more momentum efficient.
:Question is uh, how should I select this for beginners? The thing that I would recommend for beginners is, if you're a beginner just starting out in a sport, get with a local club or one of your local organizations or with your buddy Cause if your buddy disc golfs he probably has about a zillion discs that you can try and go out to a field and have somebody that's experienced a little bit experienced. Uh, if you're seriously going to get into the sport, have them kind of look at and understand your natural throwing characteristics and then they can suggest this for you. The idea that understable is for beginners, overstable is for advanced players. I've seen a lot of players with natural anhyzer releases that can throw overstable stuff very, very accurately and, granted, it's all flex lines and it's poor technique, but it works for them and that's how they've, that's how they play. It really just depends on your throwing technique and throwing style and I wouldn't say that one category of discs is strictly for beginners and another category of discs is strictly for uh, advanced or more professionals. It all has to do with your natural growing characteristics and also we talked a little bit earlier why, uh, advanced and professional players tend to gravitate towards the overstable discs.
:Uh, the overstable discs.
:They're a lot easier to control, they're a lot more reliable as far as what they're going to do and their characteristics, their flight patterns are more predictable.
:And that's a big reason why professionals play with a lot of overstable discs is because you can predict the flight pattern. And if you can predict the flight pattern, you can copy it, you can, you can duplicate it, and golf is a game all about consistency and about being able to duplicate things over and over and over again. Like I said, understable discs are a little more touchy because you have to have a lot of spin and it just kind of has to be just right, as where overstable discs, you can kind of huck them and no matter what, they're going to kind of do the same thing. Relatively higher speed ratings do not mean, nor more distance, and it also does not mean a higher skill level. Jenny, over here, she can throw her mid ranges just as far as she can throw her drivers, which is about 250 260. So the only reason that you really switch between the two is to get, uh, desired shot shapes.
Speaker 1:No, I choose to use my drivers because of the distance and the way I know that they fly, and just that's my comfortability. Comfortability because if all I'm going to do is throw mid ranges like well, I know.
:I know the drivers are fun to throw, so well, I cut down my mid ranges too. Yeah, you did, and I kind of don't need them, because if I just throw the putters, hmm well, I mean, if you look at, if you look at a pro's bag, I mean, weren't we looking at Kristen Tatar's bag before Idlewild or something like that? No, yeah, we were. We were looking at what she had in the bag and she had like 28 discs. Remember you were looking at that and you were telling me what she had.
Speaker 1:Nope, sorry, you're thinking someone else.
:No.
Speaker 1:I'm not. So it was like when we were playing Gaffneys last weekend and I would throw my F9 and then I would throw my PX3 and I would have a better result with the PX3 than the F9. Why is that? Because it was a better choice.
:But as far as flight numbers and time and the breakdown goes, why did the PX? It's a PX five, isn't it? I don't think so. I don't know. It's a PX, something I still don't know what the numbers are.
Speaker 1:Why?
:would your? Why would your quote unquote putter disc fly straighter than your F9, which is a fairway drive.
Speaker 1:Because of all that stuff you talked about for the last seven days. You're right.
:You're right, because it'll stay at that negative 1-0 for a longer period of time.
Speaker 1:It's not a negative 1-0, though.
:Yeah, it's a negative 1. No, it's not. Yeah, it's not a negative one, zero though.
Speaker 1:It's like a yeah, it's a negative one.
:It's like a negative. Yeah, it's like a negative one. Zero.
Speaker 1:No, it's not.
:It's like a negative two, okay, negative two, zero. But it'll stay on that right hand turn. It'll stay drifting right longer than it will be coming back to the middle. So it's a pretty straight disc because you have a natural hyzer release and it'll flip up for you and fly nice and straight because the you're right, the center of lift will equal out with the center of gravity. It'll flip up and once it reaches equal Librium it'll fly flat and it'll go like that forever. And then when it finally does slow down and come back to the ground, well, it's only in that zone for I don't know, two, three seconds. So it's not going to come all the way back to center. It's probably going to stay maybe a foot or two left of your line.
:The last thing I wanted to cover here is in the questions and misconceptions and things is how can we understand how our disc is going to behave in the wind?
:And the example I like to give is when an aircraft carrier is launching planes off of the top of its deck an aircraft, one of the big boats you know that we have here in town.
:When an aircraft carrier is launching planes off of its deck, it always turns into the wind so that the planes are facing a headwind and the reason for that is is because it increases their relative airspeed.
:When we're dealing with wind, you have to think of the disc as how fast it's moving against the air instead of how fast it's moving against the ground.
:Because if the air is coming at you and blowing in your face, the air is going to be moving a whole lot faster than, say, on a calm day when you're just throwing across the ground. Basically, and likewise, if you the wind is at your back, the disc is going to be moving relative to the air a whole lot slower. Because if I'm, if I'm throwing 50 miles an hour into the tailwind, and the tailwind is is, uh, 30 miles an hour, I'm only throwing 20 miles an hour, uh relative airspeed, so that that's going to be my, my forward velocity as far as the disc is concerned, to the wind. So there's there's relative air speed to the air and then there's relative to the ground, and when we're dealing with wind, you have to consider what is relative to the air you all know the best thing that I did for my game yes, cheater I put that that uh graphic for what to do for disc golf in the wind as my home screen, no, my, my lock screen on my phone.
Speaker 1:So it's right there, easy access when I'm playing disc golf. Yeah. And then my kids tease me for it.
:No, that's that's a fantastic way of doing it. It's all well and good, and you also. You also need to know why that happens and so that you can gauge wind speeds and understand how your disc is going to fly. And that's that's why a understable disc will flip over in the wind and you'll lose control over it. And in a headwind, I should say, is because the relative airspeed if you're have a 20-mile-an-hour headwind and you're throwing a 50-mile-an-hour shot, all of a sudden your disc is moving 70 miles an hour and that disc is going to need a lot more spin in order to keep it stable, spin that you probably just don't have because you're not there in your game yet and that disc is going to flip over and tank into the ground.
Speaker 1:I have more spin on my discs than you do. I know you do.
:And that's the reason I have such trouble controlling things like sidewinders and what are the other ones Some of the lower speed discs is because I have a lot of forward velocity but I don't have a lot of spin. I have a lot of forward velocity but I don't have a lot of spin, and that's something that I've really been working on lately is learning how to crack the whip so that I can get a maximum amount of spin on the disc to keep them stable. That's what I was talking about when I was talking about gyroscopic procession. Is that the more spin you have on your disc, the more stable they are?
Speaker 1:She rolling your eyes, all right, so that was my, my torque, my resistance of more information going into my head as my eyes are spinning.
:You've learned so much stuff that it's pushed some old stuff out of your head. So now that you have absorbed all this information, committed to memory, become a physics major in aerodynamics and aeronautical engineering and you understand how all these things work. Now you can go out and build your bag and hopefully we've given you enough information and some things to think about, about why your discs are behaving the way they are, why things are going the way they are for you. I see it all the time, with mistakes that are made, that people are still going out there playing with discs that, honestly, because of their arm speed and skill level, they have no business playing. With their arm speed and skill level, they have no business playing with. Uh, somehow they still make it work.
:But you're looking to equip, you're looking to equipment to remedy a problem with your form and your technique and and it's not the equipment's fault. So what I would say is uh, practice and study more and get better and use the right equipment so you don't develop bad habits that you're going to have to go back and unlearn later. And through all of this other stuff, there's different plastics, different variability between different brands. Ultimately, what you're going to need to do is you're going to need to take out a bag full of discs, all sorts of things, all sorts of different brands. Find things that you like, find things that you don't like. Things that'll work. Try out different number families and see how they work for you, because ultimately, that's what matters, it's what's going to work for you and your game and how you play, uh, naturally. And when you do that, make sure you take measurements so that you know exactly how far, how much left and right swing they're getting. Put actual distances and measurements to it and create your own flight chart, much like the ones they have in the disc golf shop that show you what the discs do. The only thing that matters is what that flight chart does to you. What is your flight chart look like?
:And then go back and evaluate and test this out several times, especially as your season goes on, especially as your skill level goes up, because people will outgrow discs and people will, uh, you know, there are discs I used to love that I just can't throw anymore. And there's this that I wished I could have been able to throw, and they've been out of my bag for years and I finally was able to put them back in my bag, because I can actually throw them now. So things will grow, things will change over time, depending on your results. You're going to have to adopt your technique or adopt your discs to better fit your game and maybe assign your own flight numbers if you feel so much that it's necessary. Or you can just do what a lot of people do and just ignore everything completely and go with whatever feels good, as long as it works for you. But having having the best tools in your bag is going to make you a more effective player, and one of the one of the greatest quotes I've heard is that golf is a game that's played over nine inches and that's the nine inches. That is between your ears as we get on with it here.
:We will talk about building a bag and disc selection a little later on, in a different episode, and come back to this. So, jenny, how do you feel about this? Is your brain full? It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Well, you're going to have to go back and let's do it again and again and again and again and take notes. We will talk about disc selection and building that bag and the different 12 slots and things that you're supposed to fill. We can talk about that in another episode, but that's probably enough for now. We're going to go ahead and close it off here at the Intentional Disc Golfer Podcast.
:So in this episode we hope that now you have a basic knowledge and history of how these flight numbers are developed and assigned to the discs, the different key concepts and terms involving disc flight aerodynamics, gyroscopic forces, airfoils, velocity, newtons, etc. Etc. Etc. And you should have some useful tools to help analyze your discs. We'll post them online, these little pictures. The speedometer tool is something that I stole from a guy on YouTube. He deserves all the credit. I modified it a little bit to make it a little more sense, but it's a really good visual aid to help you kind of map out your discs and what they're supposed to do.
:Um, hopefully we covered some of your common questions, uh, misconceptions. Um, especially the one for me that blew my mind is the knowing the role of the gyroscopic force and that if my discs are flipping over, it's because I need to add more spin or I need to take off velocity. Uh, that w that was a big game changer for me, uh, and hopefully that helps you guys out. We gave you some tips and tricks on building a more effective bag for your game. We'll get into it a little bit deeper in a later episode. Talk about how to really build that bag out, select those discs to fill all those holes. We've also discussed some practical uses on how these principles and different physics of flight can help improve your game.
:Like I uh said earlier, if you uh appreciate the information that we're putting out here, you love our podcast. You can't live without us. Please go out, tell all of your friends, spread the word. You can find us, uh, well, not find us, but well, maybe you'll find us. I don't know, but hit that like subscribe, uh follow button. I don't know, but hit that like subscribe, uh, follow button. We have a Facebook and Instagram at Saprinsky disc golf. That is CZ U P R Y N S K I disc golf.
:We are an X and YouTube at the IDG podcast. That is at the IDG podcast, and if you want to get ahold of us, uh, it is the intentional disc golfer at gmailcom. The intentional disc golfer at gmailcom. Uh, also visit us on our Patreon If you want to contribute something or support the show. Patreoncom backslash the intentional disc golfer.
:And after the credit, music plays uh, we will have some bloopers and outtakes at the end of this episode, so please do stick around for that. We would like to, uh, thank all of our fans and our supporters that have been with us throughout the years and stuck with us. I know you've waited a long time and we're back and hopefully, uh, you'll, you'll stick with us. So, closing everything out, my name again again is Brandon, and your other intentional disc golfer here is Jenny, and here at the intentional disc golfer podcast, we truly do believe that disc golf changes lives, so please go out there and grow the sport. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Intentional Disc Golfer Podcast. These are the bloopers and outtakes from this latest episode. We do have to warn you that profanity may be used and sensitive topics may be discussed. Listener discretion is highly advised to avoid this. Please stop listening and move on to the next episode. Now, the dryer is done. The dryer is done.
Speaker 1:Yes, Clean towels clean towels.
:Clean towels are a thing. We're going to have a clean dolls.
Speaker 1:Well, it doesn't make sense to take a shower and then dry off with a towel that's covered in dog hair.
:Why are you drying off the dog with your towel? No, it's just the dog hair's everywhere. Oh yeah, Well, dog hair. Well, why is the dog hair in the bathroom?
Speaker 1:We don't let the dog in the bathroom. We bathe the dog.
:Well, yeah, but not with our towels. Where their towel is, we use the purple towel. That's the dog towel, alright, so Are you playing music on your phone? You put your phone down. What are you doing? I?
Speaker 1:know my mom.
:Your mom.
Speaker 1:She's up this late, your mom doesn't stay up this late. Yeah, she does. She doesn't sleep like you oh.
:Okay. So While the dog's drinking? Oh oh, toffee saved some fishes. Reminds me of League of their Own, when Tom Hanks Goes in and takes a pee. Kyle, toffee saved some fishes. Reminds me of League of their Own, when Tom Hanks goes in and takes a pee and they're all timing him. He's all hungover. He's still drinking. I have a timer on this thing. It's been over a minute. This is amazing.
Speaker 1:He drinks about, as long as you ramble on about disc golf oh, I get nerdy over this stuff.
:It's ridiculous. Yeah, way too nerdy. And oh, he came up for air and she's drinking again. Oh, and there we go. Good girl Toffee, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, there are iRobots that in their off time from throwing clay pigeons they take a break and they go disc golf for the companies.
:That's a nice idea actually, like it's the dawn of AI, ai and disc golf. That's going to be the new thing. I'm telling you. It's groundbreaking.
Speaker 1:You have an entire rubric.
:Just stick to your plan all right, all right, I'll stick to the plan.
Speaker 1:I'll stick to the plan you're the teacher, you're the one that talks the whole time I'm, I'm, the teacher, huh yes, sir.
:Alright, you don't think so, no, okay, so the first number.
Speaker 1:No, mansplaining is not going to make it better.
:Mansplaining is not going to make it better. Oh, she's got the notes.
Speaker 1:Where are you?
:I'm down Speed.
Speaker 1:So you're on speed, I'm on speed, I'm on speed okay, yeah so maybe I should review your lessons you need well I asked you to teacher this is. You know how many times I've taught science without actually testing the experiment? I know this is.
:This is shorthand, so that my brain can work on it. So, like it's not, nobody else can understand it, except for you. Well, me, and maybe you, because you're kind of a good translator after 10 years. Oh no, it's the dog. So anyway, the first number on your disc represents speed.
Speaker 1:Speed is a the dog is drinking. It is time for a snack break, all right water break break. Alright, water break. Um, no, no, no, not really, no, not really. If you start playing noises, I'm taking off the headphones.
:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
:But it's okay for you to play.
Speaker 1:I haven't touched the damn thing, whoa watch it.
:Watch it here now come back. I know we're almost done. No, we're not.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are. We still have 20 pages left of your 12 pages.
:It's not 12, it's probably 20 pages. That's why you're a chemistry person. God.
