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The Alina Edit
The VIRGINITY Myth Debunked! ft sex educator Taylor Stafford
Virginity is just a social construct, and I'm going to break down why it doesn't define your worth!
In this episode of Stellar Cycles, we dive deep into the myth of virginity with sex educator Taylor Stafford. Together, we explore what virginity really means—beyond just physical intimacy—and examine the cultural, emotional, and social aspects that have shaped this concept for generations.
We’ll unpack common misconceptions, discuss the impact of societal expectations, and emphasize the importance of understanding consent in sexual health. Whether you're navigating your own relationships or looking to challenge outdated beliefs, this episode is packed with insightful information that empowers listeners to make informed choices.
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If you found this conversation enlightening, share it with your friends, and subscribe for more content on women’s wellness, sexuality, and breaking down health myths. Tune in to challenge the status quo and discover the truth behind the virginity myth!
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Alina: Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Stellar Cycle's podcast, your hot girl database for all things pertaining to your femininity, your cycle and wellness, and your walk in life. As a woman, I'm your host, Elena, and today we have sex educator Taylor Stafford back to talk about the myth of virginity. So welcome back, Taylor. You so much, Lena. I'm so excited to be back. Yeah. So your previous episode was actually one of our top performing episodes. People really, really liked it. And I know last time, as a reminder, Taylor was really excited to tell you guys about her comedy show that she was putting together. So will you let the listeners know what the highlights were of that? Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for coming to my show. it was so much fun. Honestly, for people who don't know. I've been speaking at universities and teaching sexual pleasure education for six plus years now. And so this was my first show that was open to the public. So you didn't have to be a student. A student? Yeah. To pay like thousands of dollars of tuition. Yeah. Yeah. So my family and friends came into town. We honestly had such a fun weekend, just exploring San Diego, prepping for the show. Everyone did amazing. The comedians did awesome. No, I was like literally falling off my seat, laughing because, you don't know what to expect. You're like, okay, is this going to be like a class or is it going to be comedy? But it was really both. Okay, good. Yeah, that was my goal of it. I feel like it adds a good element to education by making it funny and entertaining and more people have access to it because it's something that you can go to with your family, but maybe not with your family, but with your friends. And then you're learning, but you're also having a good time having a drink if you want, eating food at the comedy club. So I feel like it's a fun way to offer education to people. Yeah. And it being funnier, I think people remember more right than just sitting through, like, a stiff, tight class, you know? Yeah. I'm glad to have a good time. Yeah, I had a very good time. I want to check out that comedy club more for the San Diego people. Can you remind us what it's called? Mike Drop make comedy. Cause honestly, it's my favorite comedy club. The service was so great. Yeah, my family was like, Oh, my gosh, I had a drink in my hand the entire time. Those are amazing. Yeah. They sneak up on you? Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely like a very elevated experience. was it recorded? Will it be up anywhere? I'll definitely post different clips of it to give people a little sneak peek. But yeah, I don't want to post the whole thing, so I want to encourage people to come. Of course. Of course. That's understandable. Yeah. Well, let's get into today's episode and I think this one might be a bit of a touchy one, but that's what we do best on this show is we talk about those not so easy to talk about topics, but ones that kind of permeate everyone's mind. So the goal of this episode you guys today about virginity is to break down some of the myths and stigmas that surround this idea of virginity and to help the listeners learn about the anatomical aspects, the physical aspects of those initial sexual experiences, and also talk about the difference in societal expectations for women as opposed to men, and also help the listeners understand how to make healthy and empowered choices about beginning their sexual journey. I love that. Yeah. Are you ready to get into it so well? Oh, thank you. The reason I picked this topic is because of my own personal background, and I believe that a lot of the listener base that we have for this show kind of comes from the same background. If you don't, that's okay, because I'm sure you've probably run into your own virginity expectations and stigmas wherever it is that you might come from. But I just want to give a little background for myself as I grew up, not only in a pretty conservative religious culture, but also as a daughter of a pastor. So there was even more that came with that. I forgot I forgot that your dad was a pastor. Yes. Okay. Yes. And for some reason, I mean, ever since I was a little kid, I was kind of not by any fault of my dad's, I don't think. But what my parents were taught, clearly, they were just passing it on to me. And even as a very little girl, I want to say like six or seven years old, there was what I feel like was a more than what was necessary emphasis on saving yourself for marriage. I remember even as like a little girl my dad having these conversations with me that it was like a really big deal in the Bible that men would marry a virgin and yeah, everyone just kind of knew that she was for a fact or whatever. And yeah, and again, I don't fault my dad for having these conversations with me, but I was like even back then, something about it didn't sit right with me because I was like, How come the boys aren't getting this conversation? Yeah, you know. Right. So when my culture, where I come from, on top of it, being Slavic and very religious, for those of you who might not understand that, just think Mormon, right? I wasn't born or grown Mormon, but there's a lot of similarities, a lot of parallels to our culture and theirs, which is. Why you see so many young people getting married super duper early. We're talking sometimes 16, 17, 18 years old. And nobody really, sees that as wrong. They're like, we'd rather if the young people want to have sex and if they want to live together, than we'd rather them be married, which I think there might be upsides and downsides to that, like with most things. Yeah, but I just remember that there was always this, huge emphasis on that, especially in the church And I went to a Christian high school where our Bible teacher because like we had Bible class, our Bible teacher would also talk about this type of stuff. And he would even say things like, Oh, well, even if you are not a virgin anymore, but you regret that part of your life. You can pray to God and He can give you a second virginity and it's just like reborn again. Kind of like that. Yeah. And that's just like, I mean, the other ideas. Nice, you know, but at the same time, we can't undo an experience that we've had. I'm not talking about myself because when I was in that stage, 16, 17, still in high school, still getting pretty decently brainwashed by those ideas, I truly did think that that was the right thing to do. Right? Yeah. But back then was how limited of a view I've had of the world. It didn't occur to me that, hey, some people might not have the choice to, wait to, make that decision. Right? what about them? Are we completely discounting, their worth and value because they didn't stay a virgin till marriage? Right. So that's just kind of my background and why I am curious about this topic. Obviously, I think there's upsides and downsides to everything, but can we first start talking about how and when did this idea of virginity originate and who decided to place value on it? Yeah, that's it's a big question because it's very common in a lot of different religions. Mm hmm. Primarily, it came from religion. I think these conversations are hard because a lot of them have to do with your beliefs and your religion, right? like Adam and Eve, for example, or. the Virgin Mary. Right? Yeah. Like those kind of stories. And each religion has their own idea and story around virginity. Okay, for example. And things have changed over time. How we interpret things, I mean, just in religion in general, but also with the virginity. for example, I wish I remembered the doctor's name who did this talk. But at the last issue, which is the female sexual medicine conference, she spoke, she's Hindu and she spoke on Hinduism and how that's changed over time with virginity and just sex in general. Like originally Hinduism was very it was known as like the most open progressive religion for any kind of sex in general. And over time, it's become one of the most conservative. Okay, we're around those topics. So each. Each religion has its own kind of historical background about virginity. And so there's a lot of different beliefs about, you know, what kind of what do you believe with God and what do you believe in? What about, you know, just because you're Christian and the person next to you is Christian, a lot of times you have different beliefs, even though you are in the same religion. Mm hmm. But primarily, it came from resources, like obtaining land, obtaining women. Um, you know, I'm not surprised. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And putting a value. So, like, in a lot of cultures, if you have sex before marriage, then you are considered lower class. You are considered just not as valued in society in general. Which is crazy because especially in my culture and growing up and my religion, there are definitely people who are having sex before marriage, but because they kept quiet about it and did manage to keep it a secret and made people believe that they waited till marriage, then they're social standing or their perceived value wasn't affected as much as the people who maybe something got out about them. Right. Which really sucks about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is true. Because it's all about perception and, the lies that people fabricate. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get. We'll get to the anatomical part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Not to say yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So of course, I mean, that's kind of the way that I heard it originate was that like, hey, this was the way that they did it in the Bible. We hold true to that today. And it's like, well, why? things are so different today. But at the same time, I have to wonder and we'll get to this too. But it's like, does it actually make people's lives better to, you know, wait for that? But we'll get get to that a little later in the episode. Yeah. But yeah, I didn't know that about Hinduism because I definitely thought Christianity, Islam for sure. have heavy emphasis on this idea, but I didn't realize the other ones. Also, I feel like with tribal living, before religion came into the picture, it kind of didn't matter because women would have kids from various different men and they would be raised as a village, as a tribe, as a group, right? They wouldn't be like, oh, that kid's mine, but that kid isn't. So I'm going to show it more love. But at the same time, we didn't live back then. We don't know for sure how these dynamics worked. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot we don't know. Yeah. And what the views were for that. I mean there's people that specialize in these, you know, like theology with sexuality. I remember one of my undergrad sexuality classes. A woman came in and she was a pastor, I believe it was. She also had a Ph.D. in sexuality, in theology, which I thought was very interesting. And she had all these different interpretations of the Bible and what things meant. so, again, it's like a study, but it's also a belief system. Yeah. And if you ask me, I don't think any of us really know. It is just a really interesting thing to explore and learn about, especially if you've been taught a very one way idea right to learn that there might have been other stuff. for example, you might find this book really interesting. I've been reading it. It's called One God Had a wife who I had never heard of. Yeah. And it's about how even in Jewish enough, those Jewish, Hebrew, Hebrew culture, their God, Yahweh and L and whoever like. He always was accompanied by a queen and a goddess. But at some point, the Bible that we have today, all of that got erased out. And women are not mentioned as many times in the Bible. there are some standout characters, but not as much as men, but it's crazy because the researchers in the book were also the biologists and sex researchers together, this layer that you're talking about. And it also talks about the idea of sacred prostitution, which when we think about prostitution today, we think about women who exchange their bodies, for money as a way of living. Right. But back then, if you've ever heard of people going to the temples to have sex, have you ever heard of that? And it's like, okay, what was that all about? Yeah, I don't really know a lot about it, but and I think I, I, again, I need to delve back into this book to learn more about it, but I truly think that women were so sacred and so worshiped back then that men actually had to go to a temple and get approved by like a priestess or a priest to have sex with a woman because that's how life came about, right? Yes. So that's a very interesting thing for me, too. Like the word virgin, I forget. I think it's probably Latin or something. But it comes from the word Virgo, which means maiden. And it had a very positive view on it at some point. And then somehow it got retrenched. You know, things get retranslated. Yeah. Cultures, different view, different meaning assigned to it. So I and I really do believe that it was never inherently a bad thing to have values around virginity. Mm. But I think that the way that, you know, just like anything it gets misinterpreted and people take advantage of that and it becomes a whole different thing totally. And when you said, you know, one of your first answers when we talk about how did this originate is. Resources right and land. And that's what that book talked a lot about, too, is that's kind of where we started seeing the shifts and dynamics in women's role is when men kind of started coming in and taking over and being like, Okay, these are resources. These are women. This and that. Yeah. So would you say that virginity is more of an idea that people hold to or is there some anatomical truth to it? Like the things that we hear about, like breaking a hymen, popping a cherry, like. Yeah, those are there because I'll put I'll put myself on the line right now because in my own personal experience, nothing broke, nothing popped. Maybe it was a little uncomfortable because, obviously it's going to feel like a feeling that you've never felt before because you've just never experienced that. But I'm very proud to say that there was no bleeding, no ripping, no tearing, nothing of these things that we hear about that are, so scary. And and maybe it's also a way for, guys to not do their proper job to, warm you up to it like you were talking about. And yeah, you know, and that's maybe that's why some people do experience those things during their first time. I don't know exactly where it came from, but this is a thing and so many cultures and to the point where in some cultures, if you don't bleed after sex on your wedding night, I don't want to exactly say which culture is I. I don't exactly. I don't want to. Well, no. They also had this like during the consummation rituals, between royals, in the middle of mid-century. No, not mid century, middle ages. You're right. Like everyone would get in there and, watch them have sex. And if there wasn't blood on the sheets, then that is actually still a thing to this day. there's some places in India because I studied the sex industry, the trafficking industry in India and the culture. But to this day, they're not in the room. They are on the outside of. So the couple goes in there and then they have sex and then everyone's waiting outside and they're like, Yeah, there's blood on the thing. she is a virgin. Oh, my God. And those things happened to this day. But I mean, honestly, most women, you know, that when you have sex for the first time, if they are being gentle as they should, because it hurts the first time usually, or it just uncomfortable that you don't bleed. Right? So when you're in utero, when you're a little baby and you don't know your hymens or your vaginal opening, hymen is the tissue that surrounds of axonal opening. Right? When you're in utero, the whole hymen covers the entire whole. Okay, so there's no vaginal entrance for this little baby girl. Yeah. And because they're swimming around in amniotic fluid, it's so that nothing gets in there. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. And then as they mature, that will slowly start to open and the hymen will stretch. Yeah, because listen, listen, people if you truly are going through your, adolescent years with your vaginal opening completely blocked off, do you think that you'd have a period do you think that anything would be able to come out of you? Like, let's be real? Yeah. So depending on how much that, that opening opens, basically it's going to determine how thick your hymen is and girls will break their hymen doing gymnastics on a bicycle seat. And honestly, we don't really even see that right very often. Okay. A pediatric nurse for a while. Yeah. This is not something that's like, you know, it would have been more of like an accident, right? Like you're on your bike and You fall over and it tear or something. But this is not a very common thing. so by the time you get to your teenage years, hopefully that we're making it there before we have intercourse of any type, There's nothing to tear or rip right. But that's kind of what they're talking about when they're talking about popping your cherry. It sounds like when you're younger, when you think about popping your cherry, you think of an actual cherry that's in there, right? Or it's almost like they were referring to a cervix. Yeah. Which, that, that is. W Yeah. So it doesn't, it doesn't really make sense, but all these myths and legends that we grow up hearing about, so women that need to prove that they're virgins when they have sex for the first time when they get married, a lot of them because they're, you know, women in the community will talk, oh, I didn't tear. I don't I didn't bleed. I didn't whatever that they will actually cut themselves so that they bleed when they come out to even even because they know you're lying with what whatever it's a rape, like literally cut themselves because that's crazy to prove and you know they hear from all the women in the community, you probably won't bleed. And so they don't. But they still want to prove that they are a virgin. And these women are so crazy because even though that's a commonly understood thing among the people who have gone through it, right. And are married and are talking about it to prepare the new bride. There's still, a need to make yourself bleed. Like, Excuse me. That's crazy. And they know that they probably won't. So they do it anyways. Wow. I've never heard of that. Yeah. and some of these social consequences for not being a virgin to get married. I mean, we're talking like, ah, greater than, like, giving yourself a little razor cut. Yeah. Like, I mean, you're talking about I mean, some of them could be murdered. Some. Okay. Disgrace to the family. It's like, yeah, okay. So they do that because it's wild. It's less of a risk, I think in my culture. nobody really checks for it. It's just something that's, just verbally expected of you, you know? Yeah. Wow. How interesting is that? Can we talk about, virginity as an idea and, saving yourself, whether it's for marriage or whether it's for, a special person that you deem, worthy of having that first experience. I want to talk about when is this idea harmful and when is that beneficial? where do we find the problem with the stigma and where can it be helpful? Yeah, I think it depends on the person, honestly. And I know that's like a knowing answer because it's the answer for every now. But I think that it's helpful in the fact that sex is very vulnerable. Right. there's a lot of risks in sex no matter what. Even if you're married and you're having it with your husband. Yeah. Still, there are things you can still get an STI you don't know. You don't you have no idea what's happening it's vulnerable, right? And you might be telling your partner something about yourself in such a vulnerable way. There's always vulnerabilities when we're talking about sex, or you might not even think that it's okay to discuss it with him. Exactly. there's so many things. So I think that it's good that it shows young people that, hey, this is a big decision in the fact that you pregnancy. I mean, there's so many risks. Right. And so especially women. I think the reason why it's so targeted at women because look, as much as I think it's damaging, I also really silly Braeside and me. Right. I really want to see like what? What was maybe the thing that they were trying to accomplish that was good for women was virginity. And it's that women do stand to lose a lot more with sexual experience, whether it's their their power, because we're physically smaller and weaker. Right. Like a man could, like, literally kill you. And number two is that we are because we have that opening to our body. And it is such a delicate environment. We are more prone to diseases and things like that. Right. Men, a lot of the times They're just silent carriers. Right. so I could see how it would be beneficial to be like, hey, maybe you want to limit, you know, and this was before we had any education about protection or anything like that. And also because we do know that women do form a deeper emotional attachment than guys do when it comes to sexual intercourse. Again, not the same for every single person, but there's that. But yeah, keep going on what you were saying. Yeah. So I mean, I do think there are maybe pauses. I don't really know if the virginity itself that concept is such a positive right or of like where your inherent worth as a human is tied to that. Yeah. Yeah. Because then I was maybe going to bring this up a little bit later, but it's good to talk about it of there are a lot of women and men, but a lot of women who are sexually molested, raped before they're even a teenager, before they even have a period. Right, before they're even aware of what this is. Yeah. And it's something we don't really like to talk about, but it's in some of those cultures that we were talking about, there is no rape. Okay? When I say there's no rape, there are is rape, but. Yeah, right. any sex is sex and it doesn't necessarily mean rape. So people actually blame the woman for being raped and they will kill her for being raped in in some societies. Wow. Even to this day. And so even though we put such an emphasis on virginity, whether it's marriage or saving yourself or whatever. Think about all those women who are not, you know, in quotes, not virgins because they were molested. Yeah. Because that choice was never given to them or was taken away before they could even make a conscious decision. Right. Yeah. So it's like what their value is left, right as they were molested by whoever. It's like just a little child. So that's something that's just never sat right with me. And again, because we don't talk about these things, then that's kind of like pushed to the side of like, oh, well, that's not a thing. You know, if you're not, saving yourself for marriage or saving yourself for that right partner, then again. But like, how can we discount all of the people who have had that choice taken away from them? Right. Yeah. Which is a lot, you know, we think about oh, that's not that many. But it is. Yeah, it is a lot. Yeah. and when you are sexually assaulted a lot of survivors victims whatever you want to how you want to refer to yourself. They already have a lot of shame and they feel dirty and they feel just without the help of society knowing them. They already feel those things just violated. Yeah. Yeah, worse. And so putting all of that stigma on top of it just makes it worse, you know? Yeah. one of the craziest things I've heard and it's so true. Chanel miller she said, the trauma of being raped was nothing compared to a trauma of how people treated me after. and I think some of those virginity values go into those things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, that's because people turn their backs on like the reality of what's happening and what's being held quiet, whether it's by like family members or the the victims of Survivor themselves. Yeah. I want to talk about a way that it was harmful for me, even though, I was blessed to, sidestep any sort of those situations. And Oh my God, we're getting like really vulnerable in this episode. And I know a lot of people from my community listen to this, but whatever, I'm literally 27 years old. I can talk about my life if I want to horror sometimes, but it's okay again. Like take it out. It's fine. Oh, yeah. But I was raised with the idea that, if you remain pure for a man who is willing to take you as his wife, then that's your dedication and devotion to him. And he will give you a good life for that that's a very typical belief in our culture that you will have a good life if you save yourself for that man. And if you make him feel that you didn't let any other man near you and you, kept everything pure for him, right? And it's, again, raising the man up on a pedestal, but not necessarily the one, but it's like, Oh, but you'll be taken care of. And you'll, you know, you're going to yes, you're going to be this prized possession all of a sudden. Right. So that was kind of the thing. And because that was so instilled in me, number one, I made the choice as an adult to quote unquote, lose my V card because I was like, like, let me see what this is all about. what is society hyping up? And I'll be honest, when it was over, I was like, that's it. Like, I'm like, literally, yeah, it was I'm not floating on clouds. Like, I'm not being carried and paraded through is just like till marriage, right? And again that settled in to it's like, oh, was this less special? Because, this didn't happen on, my wedding night, you know, when everyone at your wedding just, knows that, you're going to it's so in reality, exhausted, and you don't want to have sex and you literally like, let's be real. Let's be real. How many of you guys have actually, had sex on your wedding night, even if you were waiting for it your entire life? But I also I'm not going to say who said this to me because I don't want to like out them or like whatever. I have a good relationship with them now. But when I shared with them that not even I shared, they found out on their own, but they were like, well, you know, this is really disappointing. If you had been assaulted, maybe I would understand. But they essentially made it like the fact that it was my choice was the bad part was like, you knew you shouldn't have done this. And this was like a man or a woman. No, this was a woman. Oh, interesting. Yes. And who knows? Maybe she had gone through something like that herself. Right. So that was what okayed it for her. But I was like, wow. that is actually so twisted that I'm sharing this with you, but you're making it seem like my decision and it was the bad thing. Whereas if I didn't have any decision in it, then maybe it would be okay. How messed up? Is that so? So that was very harmful for me. And then also moving through my college years thinking that I threw away my chances to find a good husband when in reality, I got married to an amazing guy who, takes such good care of me and, has given me, such a beautiful life and, not to, comparison, but I see some people who did, put all their eggs in, the saving it basket and their marriage is trash. Yes. 100. So but again, you only know these things after you're on the other side of it. when you're going through, it can be really harmful to your self-esteem because of all these ideas that you've been fed your whole life. Yeah. And all those harmful, you know, it's like I don't remember if we talked about this last time, but we're going to talk about again, Things like, pain disorders. Okay. And like vaginismus specifically. What is that for those people who don't know? it's basically very, very, very painful intercourse. It's spasming of the partial walls. Okay? And it hurts so bad that, these women, they can't put in a tampon. Okay, right. Like it is. It's so pain. Do we know where it comes from? we're studying a lot more now. We don't know definitively exactly the pathophysiology of how it happens. But the two primary populations that we see it in are women that have been sexually abused and women who grow up with highly religious, in highly religious communities who have very negative views on sex. So would you say it's literally the body's response either to a psychological trauma or a physical trauma? I think. Yeah. I think it's your body telling, you know. Okay. And, you know, maybe that's simplifying things a little too much. Yeah. When you start, you know, talking about the actual pathophysiology of it. But also it's like not simplifying or I mean, it is simplifying it, but when the body tells, you know, what people don't understand is that truly sometimes the vagina can reject 100%, you know, like whether you're trying to put in a tampon or of physical part of another human being, it can literally close off to it, which is do people know that? I mean, I don't think they know it in in the same sense, like this woman I know. So it's just what I do. Everyone tells me about all their sex things, right? So you start seeing patterns even if they're not my patients, right? I just talk to women or men or whoever. And this woman is very cool. I love her. But she was telling me so she's all of a sudden she's having very painful intercourse, it's hurting her so bad she can't figure it out. She's getting tested. All these tests, nothing. Nothing's abnormal. Everything's normal, right? And then we start to I'm talking to her, like asking her about her marriage and how that's going. Well, I find out that she just found out that he's been cheating on her. This was in the last year. And she's started having pain within that last year and she's like, I can't get it to go away. All the things. And it's like there is no treatment to to cure your relationship with your husband and how that impacts her relationship with yourself as well. I can give you all the meds in the world your body's and there's no line to reject there's no like medical tests to see like, oh, is your body closing off because you don't trust your man? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And she's like, every time we have sex, like, I don't even want to touch him. does he know that she. no. Yes, yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And she's like, I just I don't even want to be around him. I don't want to have sex with him. Okay? I don't like. You're physically telling me what your body is telling you. Yeah. It's like I don't trust him. I don't want to be around that because all she's thinking about is him having sex with this other woman. Right. And her body is just in a fight or flight response. It's saying this one is not going to protect us. This one is not one that we want. And I'm not saying that these are the cases for every single pain disorder. There's, of course, tons of different kinds. But this is a thing. a psychological impact, making a physiological response. Wow. yeah. I mean, on all levels, in order for a woman to actually enjoy sex and have a good sexual experience, she does have to feel safe with her partner. Right. And psychologically, physically, all of that. and I think that's why people also like drink alcohol and do drugs, because it lowers their inhibition with that. Right. Even if they have no reason to trust or feel safe with that person. Well, now, for the moment they do. Yeah. So that's really, really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's what I've talked about on my show too is sex is so much more than just like meeting her out, touching the clit. Yeah. In spots. Right. He has so much to do with the whole person, which is I think another reason why sex has been so integrated into all these religions and these cultures, because it's it's something that's very complex and that we think that we know a lot about. And then you start to realize oh, you don't even know that such, you know, kind of like the ocean, you know? Yeah, kind of like just religion in general, right? Like we don't know where humanity came from or how the world was created. And so religion helps give us answers to those things, of course. Yeah. Even if they're not, like, really good answers. Yeah. Yeah. So the next point I want to talk about is this idea of innocence slash purity versus experience. Because let's say you do keep your innocence and you stay pure for your husband. Does that mean after you start having sex with your husband, you're no longer pure? Like that's is. Yeah, you're now dirty anyway. Like. Yeah, like, why do we use those words, right? Yeah. But at the same time, what is it about innocence? Is it that after you have sex now, suddenly your eyes are opened to all the horrors in the world. what is it about? Yeah, it's like, what's your take on it if you're considered a whore or whatever, or you're so loose, like, you know, like a little loose top. Yeah, like you're so loose like your vagina. So is if you have sex with 100 people. All right? But if you have sex 100 times with the same person. Oh, yeah. Right? Right. What? Interesting. How does that work? How does that work? They. Right. I don't. No. That's not how it works. Yeah. Well, the question is like, do you now lose that purity even if you did the right thing and quote unquote. I'm saying right thing in the eyes of your culture, in the eyes of what you've been brought up to believe then. I mean, even if you did the right thing and you waited, now all of a sudden do you lose your purity or can you still, remain a pure person? You know what I mean? And that's just what I've never understood. Yeah, I think that when you're, talking about purity in general, I think a lot of it has to do with control. But also, I think it's a lot of, insecurity of the man. Wait, hold on. I just had a thought that I need to get out, otherwise it will leave me. I feel like and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like a lot of guys, whether it's historically, whether it's now they seek out an innocent slash pure girl, not necessarily because she's a better option for them, but because I feel like those girls are a lot more timid and they won't speak up for what they don't like. And the man can get away with a lot more than a woman who maybe has a bit of experience, knows her body, wants to have it be a two way experience, But I know that that just struck me. Yeah. And that's exactly where I was going. Okay. Okay. So it was perfect. Perfect. Because it's like. Yes. When you're comparing. So if she's already having sex with other people, then he is going to feel more pressure to kind of do it. Right. Okay. Because now he's being compared. Yeah. Yeah. Now he has a greater option or opportunity to fail to fail on it of like, oh, he does it better or. So again, I think it's a lot of insecurity, of course, like, oh, well, she doesn't know anything else. So, and men are so insecure, we don't talk about it enough. people say that women are insecure a lot. But I think men do hold a lot more insecurity than women. I agree. And if the man is not in society standards or what they perceive their standards to be for themselves, then they aren't is honestly, even when they do accomplish all their dreams and all the things right still. you can smell the insecurities. I mean, we all have is. Yes, of course. But I think with this virginity thing, it's like they want to know that they are the only person so that they so they don't speak about any of the jealousy or that there's no one else that she can compare him to and tell him, like, hey, I didn't like that. this other person did it better, which is, of course, not really the way that you should ever approach those conversations. Right? Like I think we can all do it gentler But yeah, but if she all of a sudden speaks up and it's like, hey, I like this. Instead now he's thinking, who else has been in there? Right. And that's really hard on their ego, I think back to the resources. Right. it's like buying a new car or a used car. I mean, how many times have we heard that about test driving, like, oh, yeah, castrated before or whatever? Yeah. And comparing women to objects. Oh, oh, yeah. We forget about that one all the time because we're so used to it. But they're like, Yeah, why would I want to use car when I can have a brand new car? And it's that kind of mindset about it when it's like, honestly, sometimes, a brand new car loses value as soon as you take it off the lot too. So who cares? Exactly. So, yeah, I think it has something to do with resources and obtaining like this one was mine. Mhm. I got this one and no one else can have or you know. Mhm. Yeah. Interesting. I also think with the whole innocence and purity thing, as with most things in religion, I think it just takes away from looking at the person as a whole and knowing that we have a shadow side, we have a light side, and how can we bring both of those into existence and not hate or uplift one or the other, right? Yes. none of us are pure on this planet. We've all seen and had experiences. And I'm just maybe obviously I was raised in religion. Now I am I'm more explore spirituality. My own personal relationship with God and where that is. And for me, God is that higher power that a lot of people a tribute, you know, their success or good things that happen to them But like I said, we've all were born sinners. That's what we learn and Christianity, right? So it doesn't matter, what you've been through, whether you did go through abuse or you did stay pure until your wedding, all of us are dirty still and one way or another. And I don't know if that's a helpful way to think about it at all, but again, We have to integrate both of our sides. because. The battle between good and evil will always be there, for sure. which I think this is a good topic for this podcast, people that do it for marriage, we see them a lot in sex therapy. Right? That was going to be my next point. so we can get into this. But the question was kind of like, does waiting for marriage in quotations actually make people's lives and relationships better as they're taught? I think that you can't generalize it to everyone, but I will say this, this is a very, very common thing. And when we're talking about the stigma and what you were kind of saying when you're talking about your pregnancy, when you're like, congratulations, I had sex, like, right. Oh, yeah. And we're talking about this in terms of like you've been private about your sex life, but now you live your whole life and now you're posting your pregnancy on line and waiting for a pat on the back because you raw dog. Yeah, so funny. But it's good for this concept because your whole life you're taught basically ex made anyone around it. there's a caution tape around your vagina. Like don't come in here like you're protecting your your virginity or your innocence or your purity or whatever. And then all of a sudden you get married and you can't just turn that off, right? You can't just say it's programing. You can say all you want. this is what I believe. And I'm married now so I can have sex. And I believe that this is, exactly how I'm supposed to do it. You can think that all you want, but this is not a switch. You know, just put a ring on and sign a paper and everyone claps for you. Yeah. All of a sudden you feel free to have sex, right? You have all of this stuff, you can't flip the switch. And so I've heard this before. A lot of women who are like, I don't even like I don't I don't know what I don't really enjoy it. I don't really know what to do about it. I feel guilty all the time. I'm having pain because a lot of maybe you're not very educated as much or you're still scared of it, even though now you're married. Yeah. And so there's a lot of stigma that's with that. And so it becomes a, really hard life lesson, I think like it's not this magical thing when you have sex and that's really disappointing to them. And then also just how difficult it is, like let's just say you have two people who got married who have never had sex before. you're having sex. Like teenagers have sex, right? You have experience. Maybe you're a little bit more. There's probably like zero alignment, right? Because for the guy, it's probably super quick and he thinks probably the girl is going to have the same exact experience. She doesn't. Yes. And people that are waiting to have sex, I mean, there's a lot of resources now. So it's different than it used to be. Oh, yeah. But think about it. They're not usually the type of people who are going out and learning a lot about it. They're more trying to confide in the people of the church or God or the Bible or whatever their religion is for guidance, which is they're not telling you how sex works. They're telling you how to do it in a moral way. Right. But they're not telling you oh, this is how women, receive pleasure, or this is the differences between the genders and how their experience goes. Let me tell you this, because I knew of a couple actually very close to us. I won't be naming names, but this was also back in the I want to say maybe like seventies, maybe eighties when there wasn't Internet, there wasn't really resources. But the woman's mom fumbled the ball and straight up did not prepare her daughter for, what to expect when she got married. She was like, You're going to get married. It's going to be a fairy tale. It's going to be beautiful. So when she was experiencing her wedding night with her husband, she literally thought she was being abused because that was never a conversation that anybody had with her. And I truly think that that's what flipped on the switch for her mental illness, especially schizophrenia and stuff, because I could imagine that literally not being prepared and never being taught about it in school, never being taught about it by your mom. And then all of a sudden that's just something that your husband does to you. Your wedding night was again, zero. Preparation is not being taught either. No. This is yours now. A right to do. Yeah, this is easier to do. So that's like, oh, that's a very, very extreme example of why, maybe waiting for marriage wasn't the best idea. But again, she was never informed that this is what married people do. Right. And honestly, and I hear this a lot, too, that man, he could have been the sweetest man. Right. The best intentions. But he doesn't know either. Yeah. And He's never been taught how to communicate. Like, okay, this is. Who knows what he thinks honestly. Yeah. And so. And he could have had previous girlfriends. There's no reason for us to think that he was a virgin. One does matter. But he could have had previous girlfriends and previous experiences where he was like, Oh, they love it. This is great. Yeah. Exactly. So you don't you don't know. Yeah. And so, the lack of knowledge is not safe for anyone, honestly. But yeah. And what you were saying about, she thought she was being abused I always say this, there is a legal definition of rape and abuse and then there's the psychological. And if she thought she was being abused, Her brain is interpreting it like she's being abused, like you were saying, like developing these other mental disorders. It is trauma. Mhm. Even if it's not maybe your standard definition of. Yeah. And I'm sure I mean learning psychology and everything else that you get trained in, I'm sure that people can be predisposed to these mental illnesses, but it'll take a traumatic event to turn on that switch, right? Yeah. And that's schizophrenia and bipolar by definition. And. Yeah. Main ones. Yes. They're, they're highly linked to genes and switches those on and off switches. But yeah. Also, I mean, I've never been married. You're married, but how long have you guys been married? But we're almost two years. Yeah, that's like, such a fun time. Yeah, but, you don't even have to be married. You're in a relationship for a long time. if you have a lot of those values around sex that maybe it's your duty or your job or whatever, and you start having a lot of duty sex to call it, and you're just doing it because I have to do it. This is what I have to do. And when you do that, and I think we all do it a little bit, you're like, Okay, I don't really feel like putting a penis in my mouth today. I know that I love you. And the reality is you can't always expect for the libido, right? What you talked about to be perfectly matched up all the time. Like sometimes I actually had a friend reach out to me and she was like, Lina, I don't know if anything's wrong with me. I usually have a really high sex drive, but right now, I don't even feel like pleasuring myself. And I'm just wondering, is there something wrong with me? And I was like, girl, first of all, it just because you're going through something that's unusual to you, does that mean that there's something wrong with you? And also, maybe you can get this figured out, you know, but at the same time, maybe this is actually a good time. You can look at the bright side of it and be like, okay, without the need to have sex clouding my brain, what can I focus on? Maybe I can focus on forming connections with people that aren't based on, oh, are we going to have sex after this? Right. She's single. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But four people in partnerships, that can be extra frustrating because you live with this person and they might want it. You don't want it. You might want it. They don't want it. And it's I think our society here's the thing. We're all literally led to believe with entertainment songs, movies and Hannah Bernard special, how she talked about how unrealistic sex was. It was so good. But we're all led to believe that everyone's just getting it all the time and that it's always great and this and that. But here's the thing for me, this is what made me okay with that, because at first I was just like as a newlywed, I was like, okay how come we're literally not going at it all the time, you know? But at the same time I was like, okay, again, what's the good side that I can find in this? The good side that I can find in it is that maybe if a guy doesn't have sex on the brain 24 seven, that actually makes him a more trustworthy partner because you know that that's not what he operates on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Like, has to happen, right? Or like, if I don't get it, then he's going to go get it somewhere else, right? So it's like we need to think about these things in a healthier way and just know that, what society portrays isn't always the truth. a lot of times people who live together or are just doing life things they may not be having sex three times a day. that's crazy. People like, have this thing. In them. you should have sex three times a week. That's like a number that we hear all like that. That's a healthy average. three times a week. Three times a week. I don't know where that came from. But everyone thinks okay, I'm not having sex three times a week. And you'll talk to some people and they'll be like three times a week. It's like, we're lucky if we get it three times a month. Right. And they're like, because we're stressed and we have this and we have that. And he's traveling and I'm doing, you know, there's a thousand things. And then you have people that are like three times a week. if we don't have sex, at least once a day, I'm like, something's wrong. Yeah. So everything is different. Everyone is every couple. But also not even just like every single couple, every day and every time in your life is different. And it just because we hear this a lot, this will be very applicable to you when you have a baby is like right after you have a baby and they think the woman was not as horny when they're pregnant. Some people are. Some people are. Maybe there is a high risk pregnancy. So you can't have sex in many Americans or whatever. And then the baby comes in, you know, the doctor will say, all right, sex and sex, we are whatever. And so they think, okay, now we're going to have to start having sex and the countdown starts start like we have this baby. a lot of women feel like shit about their body after they have a baby. Not saying that you have to, but it's a common thing. There's a lot going on. There's a baby screaming. Your entire existence is now about taking care of that child. Yeah. And so it's like, okay, now we're just going to start having sex and I know it can be difficult and you want to connect with each other and that's important. But there are times in your life where you're not going to have as much sex, and there's other times in your life when you're going to have way more sex than you usually have. let's just say you have a parent that dies. You're going to be horny for a long time. Yeah, yeah. There's other things on my mind. But that, I think is the point of marriage is that it doesn't have to be the same all the time. You're adapting, you're ebbing and flowing And it's a big lesson in how to respect the other person and not push your own desires on that. It's okay to have our own desires, right? And you got to vocalize that. But also knowing that it's okay if they're not on the same page. Yeah. Also, I think a really good barometer for if you're kind of in this space where you're like, are we having enough sex and are we not judge your experiences by how well you're connecting during those experiences if you're just having sex just to, reach that number or the week? Yes, but it just you don't feel that connected or it doesn't feel that intimate that maybe you're, pushing it a little bit. Right. Yeah. And there's different types of sex for different things, right? And, and when couples are worried about if they're having enough sex or not and you can't ask anyone else if you're having enough sex besides your partner. Like, how do you feel about our sex life or are we having know sex and not even just enough? Like, how do you feel? Like what? The quality. Yeah, you could have said honestly and I feel like this too is like sometimes I could have sex seven times a week and it's like average and it's like, yeah like could have done without that. I would have either had one sex one time that week and it'd be amazing. And we're connecting and we're taking our time and all the things and I'm going to be more satisfied. Totally quality over quantity, but they might not be. So it's, you know, again, everything flowing. Yeah. Like, yeah. It's super and different times in your cycle. Totally, totally. Unfortunately, the times when you want it the most is when your body's most primed to get pregnant, you know? And then in the luteal phase, when it's safe, you're like, Don't even look at it. You don't want to take a nap. Yeah, exactly. I feel fat right now. Like I'm bloated. Yeah, breaking out. Emotional, actually. It's kind of crazy that as women, we get one good week out of the month. Like ten days of. We're lucky. Really? Yeah. So also, your partner, knowing your cycle too well, you have to know your own self, right? In order to teach them. But your partner, knowing your cycle, that will help them to know to like okay around this week, I can maybe have more patience or really, I don't know. She's ovulating and so or you know, so I know she might be more horny around this time. Yeah. So I'll do like a nice romantic dinner or something to It's honestly, it's easy because it's the same thing every four weeks. But I feel like guys want to weaponize their incompetence and be like, no, that's too hard to learn. No, but it does help your relationship. But kind of going back to this whole virginity idea, what are some ways that people can work through that guilt that's instilled in them? Right, because that guilt doesn't come from just being a human and having a human experience, but the guilt that's instilled in them either through experiences or those institutions that they were raised in when it comes to their sexual choices and experiences, especially those initial ones where they're learning how to do all of that. Yeah, I feel like a lot of it is understanding yourself and your relationship with your religion and your relationship with God and your relationship with your own body, just your relationship with yourself. I think that when you can establish your own values and you can really determine what like you want to live in I think that's easier said than done because we have a lot of influences from, you know, everything around us. But once you kind of decide this is what I want to feel, this is how I want to live, you have a goal now you know what to reach to get to that place where now no one can tell me anything. I want to speak on how important it is to do that, even if you're really scared too. Because like I was talking about earlier, I was kind of the one that, broke away from, this whole sort of. Yes, yes. And not to speak badly on it, because it did have beneficial things like the structure of community, the support and everything. But again, people watching you like a hawk over every decision that you make. Do you want to hear something funny? When I moved to Loma Linda University, which was an advance like from my own church school, I lived in an all girls dorm. I was going to ultrasound school. This was, completely approved by my parents. Right. Okay. You want to know what the rumor going around my church was? People were so stupid. They were like, Yeah, we heard that Selena moved to California to live with the guy. I'm like, I literally am an R.A. at an all girls dorm. I'm not living with a guy. I'm at an advanced school. that was like the talk of the town. Yeah, I see. Yeah, yeah. And either way, whether or not I waited for marriage, you know, what did make my life better was very early on, whether I was aware of it or not, but, understanding, this is how I want to live. This is the life that I want to carve out for myself. I don't want it to be given to me. Which having said that, my parents did support me quite a lot and were able to send me to school and give me these opportunities. That's where I met Sam, right? but I just whenever I go back and I see my church and the people who did stay there and never broke away and never took that step to be like, this is the type of life that I want to live. Like they're still literally stuck in ten years ago. And I can tell that they're not happy with their lives, but they've just chosen that path that's been decided for them by their parents, their elders, their community. so I think what you're saying is really important. even if it hurts, even if, you know, you might be cast aside or people might talk about you at the end of the day, you're going to feel so much better knowing that you made your decisions, you went and sought the life that you want. you built this, you got it out of the mud type of thing. Built up brick by brick. Yeah. I also think some of it. Oh, God, I'm being that person that some of you just come from the age. Yeah, yeah. I mean, when you're 18 years old, like I was getting old. I mean, I'm only 29, but even women in their thirties and forties will be like, Oh my God. I'm so excited for my thirties. Women are always like, Oh my God, when you get to your thirties, you're going to love yourself so much more. And just some of it just comes with age. You're figuring yourself, how you're feeling more confident. You're kind of like, more like fuck society kind of thing. And then you get to your forties and it's even more liberating. Wow. And this is what I've heard from women. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it takes a lot of work and time to get there, anything because we're constantly trying to figure out ourselves. But I'm excited for and in a twenties, I know as you're 29, you're really coming out of it a little bit more. But in your twenties, even if you're a really headstrong person, you kind of still have the programing in you to pander to other people and make decisions based on what are people going to think of me? What are they going to say? How am I going to be perceived? How is this going to affect my social standing? And those are all very strong tribal influences, right? That are just ingrained in us for thousands of years. 100%, yeah. And I think women have it even worse or more because we are such social creatures. Like if you look back to why women talk like. Yeah. And like to gossip and. Vacation is our currency. Sometimes it saves lives, literally. Yeah. This is what women used to do in the tribal days was like, figure out, who? And we still do this. Who is unsafe? What? You know where? Who? Sketch. Sketch. Like, who can't be trusted that now with. Yeah, like, you know, what's the Facebook group like? Are we dating the same? Yeah. Yeah. You know, we do this, we do this, and we talk like I've even now created a small place, even though it's big. But like, if I know someone who is, dated someone or let's just say I match with them on hinge or whatever and I go and I look at their Instagram and I'm like, Oh, who is our mutual friends? I'll reach out and be like, What do you know about this person? Yeah, what do you have to say about them? What's your review? Yelp review? And I might not. Yeah, what's your overview? And I might. You don't have to take everyone's word for sure everything. But you know, if someone my friends are like, oh, he's honestly he dated my friend. He was so like you, you don't want to do this. he was controlling, he did these things and I'm like, Oh, you know, or it can be like, Oh, we did, my friend. He was really sweet. It didn't work out, but yeah, I can get him to go, right? It doesn't even have to be anything. Just what is your $0.02 about it? It's important. It's important. And recently I went through some stuff with a friend that, really shocked me because, I was already kind of starting to distance myself from her because she was a huge complainer. And I was like, okay, I'm starting to turn into a big complainer. So I was just kind of like, let me just I'm not going to say, like, because here's the thing too about growing up is like, don't tell people about themselves, right A lot of the times people don't have the self-awareness or the maturity for it, even though a lot of us think we do. But nine out of ten times, nine out of ten times, we're going to get defensive. They're going to get defensive. So you I think the more demure thing is. So just kind of like let them continue being themselves. Sam is so funny because whenever I have friendship issues or issues with girls, he's like, Lena, I only argue with people I care about. That's my family and you. I don't argue with friends I don't have any drama with my friends because they don't really matter. And I'm like, Yeah, you're right. That's true. Not to say they don't matter to people, but we have different friends for different especially girls. We have friends by specialty. We have the friend that we go to the ladies with. We have the friend that we go to book club with. Right? Oh, true. Yeah, guys. More so. They have friends based on duration. Like they met her freshman year in college and they're just 15 years later, they're still buddies and they all have, different levels of lifestyle, different jobs, but they all come together and they're usually not like, Oh, that guy. he's living so much better than me. what is he doing? But with girls, I think that unless, she's so in her own lane and so in love with what she's doing, she's always going to compare herself to you. Yeah, but anyway, we're getting a little derailed here. But based on what you were saying, with the exchange of information, how helpful it is, I did feel the need not necessarily to bash this person, but to bring up the fact with a common friend of ours. I was kind of distancing myself for a while. I didn't do the whole unfollow thing or whatever. One day I wake up, I'm blocked on all platforms. Oh, gosh. And my friends are sending me videos of hers that she's, making about me that are like, oh, like, she wanted my life. She wanted to be me and, just very arrogant type of stuff. and again I tried to bring this. Yeah, surprised. But like, I tried to bring this up in a way that was very sensitive and be like, yeah, this. This kind of hurts my feelings because I thought we were cool. But you know, not, taking the opportunity to bash her in front of our common friends, but just to kind of be like, hey, this is what I'm experiencing with this person. And my friend, who is very mature for a 20 year old, she asked me a few questions to play devil's advocate, like, do you really think these videos are about you, you know, and things like that? And then she's just like, you know, I'm like, thank you for telling me about this because, it does really help, how I'm going to relate to her in the future. Not necessarily that she's going to hate her because of her. Right? but like you said, it does help to know it as a social currency. And people thrive in secrecy. Right? They thrive and what they get away with and what other people don't know about them. So true. So true. And I think that's kind of the whole thing with the MeToo movement, right. Is like, you can't be secret about it anymore. We're going to say things and put you on blast. People, take advantage of it and of course problems with that. Yeah, but kind of what we're talking about with virginity with the bleeding on our wedding night, that's all about communication, too. When I talk to him, talk to each other like, okay, well, you might not bleed. Yeah, so you need to make yourself bleed or else this is what's going to happen, that's all. We just talk. That's how we figure things out. Trusting. Yeah. And there's value placed on that. Yeah. How can you advise girls especially. But guys too if they're listening to this and you know, guys have their own struggles with masculinity and sex and all that stuff. But along with what you said about really knowing your self, your values, what you're looking to get out of life and finding confidence and security what are some other ways that we can have a healthier relationship and outlook on our sex life, whether we're having it or not? I think the best thing we can do for herself is learn about our self. whether that's through sex or outside of sex. But what do you actually like? Right. And I always say this to women when you're single, it's a great time to experience things on your own. Like try different things, in the bedroom with yourself, right? Try different vibrators, try different stimuli. And I always try and encourage women to create a masturbation environment, in the same kind of environment that you would have sex in. Mm hmm. Right. And so I think that is, get getting excited about learning things about yourself so that when you actually are sharing it with a partner, you know, things and knowing things about yourself and knowing things in general is going to make you more confident. Okay. I agree with you. But also going back to this culture where also masturbation is very frowned upon. literally in my high school Bible class, our teacher taught us that masturbating is homosexuality because you're having same sex. Sex with your self. I have never heard, you know, literally like you're being homo with yourself. How ridiculous. I've never heard that. But that is so fine. Right. So what if some people are scared of the fact that, like. Okay, maybe I do want to choose to wait for that. Right, partner? But then what if, if I do come into it with some sort of. Yeah. Any sort of knowledge of what I like. Then they're going to immediately assume that I've been with someone else. Well, and because, I mean, you've been in the church, as a child. Mm hmm. More than I was. Mm hmm. But in Christianity, when you are married, you still can't masturbate. Right. That's not something that's talked about. Okay. Because, I think that it's unspoken. But I do know that a lot of guys and, wives struggle with the fact that they're husbands have porn addictions because they weren't allowed to, have healthy exploration other than on the Internet. Right. And now that could be another thing, too, with libido mismatch. Right? It's like, well, I didn't even know that this was a thing that he was doing that's part of his everyday life. Now I'm not having as much sex as I thought I would be as people told me I'd be having during marriage because he has this other outlet. Right. Yeah. And there's a huge conversation around that about what is considered cheating. Mhm. Right. And I think that is couple to couple. Right. Those are conversations that you have to have because you can't, I mean you can but yeah. Like you, you're, you know, using porn or maybe even just masturbating. You're not. Right. Using porn, it's like you're using your imagination. Right. How do you feel? how does your partner feel about that? how do you guys. And I always say, because we're kind of on the topic of differences between men and women. Mhm. But it should probably be the same. Right. If he can have sex with himself, you should. It shouldn't be like I can masturbate and you can't. Right. Right. And I just think so much of it is just unspoken because we do know when most of us know that, especially us in the medical field, that in order to keep the prostate healthy, the guy has to come like he can't go three days without it. Right. So in my mind, I'm like, that's fine. Do what you need to do as long as it doesn't, interfere with, how I connect with you. Right. So whatever. Yeah, I forget where. And also, it's crazy to think that, you're the only person that they think about, even if you're married and if you're really in love. So I've made myself okay with that too. But again, if you're taking action on that in the physical world and that's where I'm that's a problem for me. This is when we talked about different kind of desire during my comedy show of spontaneous desires. Like if you see something or you hear something and then you get turned on by it. Right? So like I saw a TV and I'm like, Oh, I'm 40. Yeah. that's all, guys. A lot of them. Yeah. And they can't your desire. You can't necessarily just change it and control it. We can do different things to help, like increasing or decreasing or whatever. But if he he can't. If that's the way his brain or anyone. Yeah. A female operates, you can't just, turn that thought off. Mm hmm. You have to that he still might be mourning for that. And you might think that person is attractive. Yeah. He can't control if he thinks someone's attractive. Yeah. Or not. He can control what he does. Right. It's all about channeling that. It's like, okay, you know, if you got that feeling and it's not for me, go to the gym, work it out. Yeah. But, yeah, I think the suppression and the trying to reject those very human parts of us is where the problems kind of start to come in. Right. And I feel like I hear this a lot and I think it comes back to that jealousy of I don't want him to think he's not going to think anyone else is attractive for the rest of our lives. Yeah, and I know it sounds nice. Yeah, but there's also some freedom in releasing that thought and just being like, well, and also, I mean, Sam's so respectful that, we'll be out somewhere or we're watching Netflix and like, wow, that girl is really pretty, you know, I open the door for him to agree or not agree, but he's just like, I didn't even notice, you know, so he's very good about about stuff that's relations to relationship to usually in my relationships, well, just because I'm bisexual, I'm totally fine to be like, Oh, she's attractive. Yeah, I think of, how she's cute. we can all, act like we have eyes. That's okay. But it's like, are you now going out of your way to like. On the outside of what's allowed. Right? Yeah. Yeah. again, bringing it back to respect for your partner and making sure that you guys are on the same page about things that are happening in a relationship. it's just like having a healthier outlook, whether or not you're having sex. Yeah, I think therapists help also. I know that a lot of people in the church don't like going to therapy. Right? They'd rather go to the pastor and put all of their stuff on a person who's not does not have the credentials to help them in those areas. Yes, but I will say there are a lot of professionals that are are in the same religion as you. So they have a similar background so they can not understand or work through that. So, yeah, it might not be your pastor, it might not just be a therapist, it can be someone who understands you has the same background. Like one of my good friends. She lives in Salt Lake City and she's Mormon and she's a sex therapist. And so that's her primary specialty is helping Mormons kind of work through the shame, this guilt finding, their own outlook on these things that is going to make them feel good and have a good sex life and not be their target or home before they even get married. And so there's a lot of like, okay, I'm out there to go to people that look like, oh, have you seen values? Okay, I've been trained. Yes. In this area to help you work through. That's really good. Another one I want to add to that, because it kind of goes back to we're constantly pummeled with the entertainment industry advertising with this idea that's not anywhere close to reality of what people experience. So my way to combat that would be you guys and girls talk to more people around you, talk to married people, talk to single people. Don't be afraid to bring these things up. Of course, ask them if they're comfortable talking about it, but just be like, hey, you know, there's just this kind of idea. And I'm just wondering, what's your take on it, you know? And when you start having more real conversations with real people, you'll probably have a healthier outlook because you'll see how much variation there is, right? Yeah. And hearing more perspectives, obviously gives you more input to be able to create your own perspective off of. Yeah. Like, Oh I like that. I'll take a piece of that. Oh I don't like that. I'll leave that there. Yeah. No judgment, but just take and leave, what you need. Yeah. Everyone is different. everyone's sexual experience is different again. Every day is different when you have sex, everything is so different. So just being able to, navigate through a healthy relationship that you want to be in for sure, the relationship that you are with yourself and your partner. Yeah. And that's probably what's going to feel the most true to you, right? Yeah. For those people who are looking to start having sexual experiences, what is a healthy way to approach making your first time decision? Or you know, if you're just considering yeah, I might be ready. what are some ways that people can prepare themselves? the way that they can hold boundaries and that sort of thing? Yeah, I think the main thing and the first thing that I talk to anyone about with sex is make sure you feel safe. Mm hmm. And that means, you know, I think when women we think of safe, we think of physically safe, which obviously very important. Yeah, they can tell you. Yes. And we all know this, but also feeling emotionally safe and feeling comfortable enough to be able to voice this hurts. I don't want to try that. I want to do this. I'm ready for that. Just even if you don't really know that much, being able to like check in with yourself if you know we're starting to do something and it hurts cannot do I feel empowered and do I feel comfortable to say no, this hurts. I don't want to do it or I don't want to do that. And that also is easier said than done. But I think it's important because then you're not you're not pushing yourself into situations that are going to be uncomfortable for you. Okay. Advocating for yourself is so difficult sometimes. Oh, actually, yeah. Sex. And it's already like happening. And women are chronic people pleasers. So a lot of times guilt. We're scared to speak up because we're like, well, I don't want to ruin his experience. Well, guess what? he'll yeah, he'll have a good experience. Yes. Some time later down the road. But your experience is what matters because that's what's going to form the rest of your, understanding, right? Yeah. And yeah, I honestly, I just think that being able to, voice your opinion and just speak up in general is seriously one of the most important parts of sex. And because, I mean, I'm guilty of it, too, sometimes I won't even even to this day, In fact, I was like, Why didn't I see anything about that? Like, what the heck? Yeah, kind of like, fall into, those. Yeah. Patterns. So, I mean, it happens with all things like when a friend does something to you or a coworker or a boss and you're just like, Damn, why didn't I react? You know, in retrospect, hindsight in hindsight is always 2020. But so if I'm hearing correctly, not only is physical safety really important, but also knowing that that person that you're choosing to do this was respects you enough to provide that emotional safety that you can have really a two way experience with them. Right? And again, you can look for clues of this before you ever get in bed with them. Of course. Right? Yes. Yeah. I think as women were, one thing that I teach, too, and I speak to a sorority is being able to identify your intuition. Right. And be able to differentiate that from anxiety. Mm. so what's a good way to kind of separate the two that you're going to have to find out on your own? Okay. That's the way your body responds. Okay. And so, we're all anxious. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Right. Yeah. He does that and trying to figure out like what is like and this takes a long time, but this takes years of practice and you can never stop of being able to understand, okay, like, for example, for me, when I have insight, my heart rate will go through the roof and I'm kind of aloof, almost like I'm not in your body. Not in my body. I'm kind of like all over the place. my brains are going like this. I can't really focus when I'm out there like a threat. My body does not respond the same way my body, even though it's a similar process because it's so heightened nervous system, my body will be more locked in. Yeah, yeah. when I'm don't even know I'm doing it. This is my intuition that has been, you know, perfecting for hundreds of thousands of years before we had our frontal lobe and our frontal cortex to be able to say oh, yeah, yes, I should do this or I should not or be able to self-restraint. Brain That intuition has been able to say that's a threat or it's not. And this is why I'm really, really, really, really, really tell women if you're ever meeting someone online or in the Internet, dating apps, whatever, always meet in public. First, of course, 3 seconds that you first saw them will tell you if they're a threat or not. And being able to identify that what happens in your body when you're able when you can say okay, something is weird. Yeah. again looking back, we can all notice when we first had that feeling, what after you've already had an experience with the person, whether it's romantic a friend. But yeah, it's, it's really about fine tuning that. Yeah. Yeah. Gavin de Becker. he wrote a book The Likes, which I think. No, no, no, no, no. That's from Gavin Tobacco. What's that anyways? From this book, I'll think of it. Okay. But she does a lot of work with the U.S. with hostage situations, a lot of domestic violence, a lot of trafficking situations like that. So he's worked with a lot of women of sexual abuse or people. And he says and ever since I read this, I think about this every single time. But there is nothing that can predict an assault, like an assault of any kind. There's one thing that is true, you know, and he says and every single assault that I've ever been involved in, the victim always has a feeling that something is going to happen. It is. This has a feeling. And I was she was wearing know that it was a dark alley. Whatever it was, it was just like I just had a feeling something was off. Wow. And when you start paying attention to that now, I work with victims of sexual assault, they all say something like, I just knew I don't know what it it you can't explain it. That's your intuition for trusting that is it. And so that's why I'm like, you know, when you meet someone goodbye, it's not good. Okay? So I don't know how we got to that, but basically it's your intuition. Yeah, your mindfulness. Obviously being able to, understand your own body. Easier said than done, but just paying attention to how you feel. Yeah. Mindfulness being in the moment. Yeah. Just all those kind of skills. Okay, perfect. Yeah. And then to just kind of loop things back, we're going to kind of start where we are and where we started because you said the definition of virginity comes from the word Virgo, which in astrology. Since the maiden and its Virgo is the only human sign out of all of. Well, yes. Oh, you mean not. Not just female, but human? Yes. So I didn't know that. Yeah. And I just want to ask you, how would you define virginity in a way that respects all people and experiences, not just the woman? Yeah, I also think that. virginity itself as a word like when we say lose your virginity, like we literally lost a part of our lives. Like it's a loss. Yeah, yeah. I don't really like the word in general. No. Go back to your your question of like, oh, they're a virgin. We're identifying them as something else. Yeah, it's just like the rest of the population. And so I don't really know if I have a word that I like better. Honestly, have your listeners write in with some words that are about like. Okay. But yeah. So I think your question is how would you define virginity? Honestly, I just I don't even know if I can define I mean, either I can't grasp it. but we've talked about this whole episode is the fact that it isn't what it's usually presented at. Right. It's this thing that's really difficult to grasp, difficult to put your finger on. Yeah. It's just kind of been a way to pretty much control the woman. Not to say that it hasn't had, good ideologies behind it, like maybe protection for the woman. Right? But yeah, I'm just like, we do have age, but the age. But then, you know, you think about virginity and we've what we talked about kids that are molested, right? I don't want them to think, oh, I can't. This is my coming of age. Yeah. When, you know, the worst thing that's ever happened to them happens. So what if we just, rebrand it to initiating intimacy? Because that's where your first conscious intimacy. Like that? Yeah. Yeah. Intimacy. Initiation. Yeah. That's like. That's your decision. You're conscious of it, you're bringing the other person into it, and. And the soul would not be intimacy. So it doesn't include that, right? Good. Yeah. I don't think it's that. I don't want it to be. Yeah, you know what I mean. And intimacy now 100%. And also intimacy doesn't always have to be sexual, right? So it could be really true the experiences leading up to that. Well, and think about this you know, they call it Goldstar lesbians, but you've never heard of it lesbians that have only ever had sex with women. Oh, they've never been penetrated by a man. That's a whole nother thing of, if you're a gold star lesbian, you're a real lesbian. Oh, it was also stupid, right? But it's kind of like. because let's just say Gold Star Lesbian, what they they're not a virgin. They're going to be a virgin forever. Right. So now are they're been penetrated by fingers and tongues and all the things by another person, or they've connected sexually with someone who had sexual experiences Yeah. Yeah. So, are they virgins? Right. Forever, right. When they're doing things that other people, you know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know. It's just doesn't really work, not just for modern times. But we have to understand that these things have permeated culture and society since probably the beginning of time. Otherwise it wouldn't be. And the Bible and all these ancient scriptures and things like that. So yeah, I think a much better way to talk about is initiation to intimacy. Love this. Okay, we're really branding virginity. Okay, perfect. I love it. if anyone has any other, suggestion. Yeah, let us know. You know, I'm excited. I'm like, ooh, what? What else could we call it? Yeah. Yeah. thank you guys for joining us for this episode. To kind of quickly summarize this myth of virginity episode, we talked about where did this idea originate? How did people relate to it today, the sort of stigmas and maybe harmful versus beneficial things about it, which it could have both, you know. But for the most part, I do think it can cause more harm to people than it does benefit. at the same time, it is really important to be mindful and conscious about, as Taylor said, your values, the type of life you want to have and make decisions based on that so that you don't have guilt that's put on you by other people who aren't in bed with you and are not making those decisions with you. it's really cool to learn some things that I didn't know that women would cut themselves in order to prove that that's really sad. But again, they live in societies where. There's really dire consequences of that scary love. And, you know, as much as I like to complain about the patriarchy. Yeah, no, but we're very lucky. Yeah. You know, and that doesn't mean that there's not room for improvement. But, you know, feminism has given us a lot of benefits that women were not able to enjoy even 50 years ago. So we do have that to thank for. like bank accounts, we can have our own bank account. You can have your own house. Whoa! Oh, my God. You can buy property without the permission of a man. It's crazy. You know, the bank account one is nuts. Yeah, but. Yeah, and also, if you didn't grow up in, an institution and you feel really good about your decision that you waited. That's the beauty in all of this is that we're all free to make our own choices. And it's as long as you're happy with your choice and feel like it benefited your life, then that's how you know you're doing the right thing. So follow your heart. Follow your heart and your pussy. Yeah, yeah. Well, you guys, this has been another incredible, amazing episode with Taylor Stafford, our resident sex educator and also thriving comedian. How about that? No, for real. Like you're so good, so funny. Is so educational. I think it can be really hard to marry that to write, to be both funny and make sure people come out with a lesson. But yeah, you did that very well at your comedy show. Thank you. I really appreciate. Yeah, I'm excited for what you're going to do in L.A. and if you end up putting out any clips where people maybe can get a snippet or a taste, let me know and I'll put that up for people to check out. But it's been another great episode of Stellar Cycles. You guys can follow us on Instagram at Stellar Cycles Pod. And if you're feeling up to it, please give us a five star rating. I also love to read any reviews that you girls leave for me. till next time, stellar cycles out. Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks for coming on. See you guys next time.
